Gun Vote " Shameful Day," Obama Says

[Morden]

The MIT killing of a police officer shows the fallacy of the suggestion that educational establishments would be safe if adults in them carried guns.

[JDGRUEN]

The MIT killing of a police officer shows the fallacy of the suggestion that educational establishments would be safe if adults in them carried guns.

In the USA ... unfortunately a police officer dies in the line of duty about every 3-4 days. Your one lone example proves nothing except that police work is dangerous bringing the officer in contact with a violent person much more often than civilians encounter. There are hundreds and hundreds of examples every year of Americans saving their own lives and lives of others in home breakins, store robberies, muggings, etc. The news accounts are easy to find... just use a good search engine and see what you find.

Edited April 21, 2013 by JDGRUEN

[NeverSure]

The MIT killing of a police officer shows the fallacy of the suggestion that educational establishments would be safe if adults in them carried guns.

How in hell can that be? Where do you even start to connect the dots? A police officer was killed by murderers, not by normal "adults."

How do you know what would have happened had that officer been in an area where 100 armed, honest, law abiding citizens were going about their own business? In fact, had some armed citizens been around, that might have been the end of the whole episode right there.

What you don't read, is the approximately +/- 2 million times each year in the US when an armed citizen uses a gun to protect himself or another person.

That's not PC news, but it's true,

+/-2 million times a year. Some of that could be on campuses.

"Fact Sheet: Guns Save Lives"

"A. Guns save more lives than they take; prevent more injuries than they inflict.

* Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day. 1

This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives. 2

* Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.3

* As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.4

* Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America" -- a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.5"

More, with references.

Edited April 21, 2013 by NeverSure

[Credo]

I see no connection between this event and the Boston bombings. Bringing a gun to a terrorist bombing makes about as much sense as bringing a knife to a gun fight.

[Scott]

Off-topic, troll post deleted as well as replies.

[Ulysses G.]

The MIT killing of a police officer shows the fallacy of the suggestion that educational establishments would be safe if adults in them carried guns.

No one thinks that they would be 100% safe - there is no such thing - but, obviously they would be much safer.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Oh please. The vast majority of the democrats voted with the overwhelming public opinion on background checks. The vast majority republicans voted AGAINST the overwhelming public opinion on background checks. They obstructed the will of the people. In my view, this is a massive failure of democracy.

Background checks are unconstitutional, it is the right of every free American citizen to own guns, no matter what their background.

If someone isn't sane enough to be allowed to own a gun, then they are not sane enough to be allowed outside an institution.

If someone has a criminal history that makes them unsuitable to own a gun, then they are unsuitable to be allowed outside of a prison.

[Credo]

Oh please. The vast majority of the democrats voted with the overwhelming public opinion on background checks. The vast majority republicans voted AGAINST the overwhelming public opinion on background checks. They obstructed the will of the people. In my view, this is a massive failure of democracy.

Background checks are unconstitutional, it is the right of every free American citizen to own guns, no matter what their background.

If someone isn't sane enough to be allowed to own a gun, then they are not sane enough to be allowed outside an institution.

If someone has a criminal history that makes them unsuitable to own a gun, then they are unsuitable to be allowed outside of a prison.

Without a background check, we don't actually know that they are a citizen.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Oh please. The vast majority of the democrats voted with the overwhelming public opinion on background checks. The vast majority republicans voted AGAINST the overwhelming public opinion on background checks. They obstructed the will of the people. In my view, this is a massive failure of democracy.

Background checks are unconstitutional, it is the right of every free American citizen to own guns, no matter what their background.

If someone isn't sane enough to be allowed to own a gun, then they are not sane enough to be allowed outside an institution.

If someone has a criminal history that makes them unsuitable to own a gun, then they are unsuitable to be allowed outside of a prison.

Without a background check, we don't actually know that they are a citizen.

I doubt there is anyone in America who doesn't carry some form of ID on their person.

I would be happy to have anyone producing a local driving licence sold guns.

Edited April 21, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[Credo]

There are a lot of people who don't have any form of identification. Even if they do, you can have a Driver's License without being a US Citizen. I assume you think that the constitution only guarantees rights to US citizens? I think those rights are generally extended to anyone on US soil.

Background checks are not illegal. If they were, the Supreme Court would have ruled as such in it's cases concerning gun control. If not, perhaps you or the NRA could start the ball rolling on the situation. Do you think the NRA just overlooked the illegality of background checks?

I, for one, will be really happy to know that when prisoners are released from prison they can immediately go out and get a gun. It just makes me feel so safe and all warm and fuzzy.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

There are a lot of people who don't have any form of identification. Even if they do, you can have a Driver's License without being a US Citizen. I assume you think that the constitution only guarantees rights to US citizens? I think those rights are generally extended to anyone on US soil.

Background checks are not illegal. If they were, the Supreme Court would have ruled as such in it's cases concerning gun control. If not, perhaps you or the NRA could start the ball rolling on the situation. Do you think the NRA just overlooked the illegality of background checks?

I, for one, will be really happy to know that when prisoners are released from prison they can immediately go out and get a gun. It just makes me feel so safe and all warm and fuzzy.

As I said, I am happy that anyone that can produce a local DL can buy a gun.

If they are allowed to have a US DL, they can have a gun.

I never said background checks are illegal, I said they were unconstitutional.

As for the NRA, they compromise when they shouldn't.

"We keep our guns, and you can have them when you kill us" should be their stance.

As for prisoners, prison is to rehabilitate.

If you haven't rehabilitated you shouldn't release.

If you have rehabilitated, they can be trusted with a gun.

Edited April 21, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[Morden]

The MIT killing of a police officer shows the fallacy of the suggestion that educational establishments would be safe if adults in them carried guns.

No one thinks that they would be 100% safe - there is no such thing - but, obviously they would be much safer.

If a police officer can be killed then what chance does a teacher have?

[rubberduck]

When 'The Land of the Free' has no other meaning then being allowed to have a gun it is not suprising.

Since my birth always glad I'm not an American

[Morden]

Oh please. The vast majority of the democrats voted with the overwhelming public opinion on background checks. The vast majority republicans voted AGAINST the overwhelming public opinion on background checks. They obstructed the will of the people. In my view, this is a massive failure of democracy.

Background checks are unconstitutional, it is the right of every free American citizen to own guns, no matter what their background.

If someone isn't sane enough to be allowed to own a gun, then they are not sane enough to be allowed outside an institution.

If someone has a criminal history that makes them unsuitable to own a gun, then they are unsuitable to be allowed outside of a prison.

Surely you are wrong about that. At least the restrictions on a free for all are already imposed by law.

Criminal history isn't the only reason for banning someone from owning a gun, of course.

Things have changed since the Second Amendment was introduced. Kids have been massacred in the most horrible way. If a nation doesn't react appropriately to that change, then it is sick beyond belief.

[Credo]

There are a lot of people who don't have any form of identification. Even if they do, you can have a Driver's License without being a US Citizen. I assume you think that the constitution only guarantees rights to US citizens? I think those rights are generally extended to anyone on US soil.

Background checks are not illegal. If they were, the Supreme Court would have ruled as such in it's cases concerning gun control. If not, perhaps you or the NRA could start the ball rolling on the situation. Do you think the NRA just overlooked the illegality of background checks?

I, for one, will be really happy to know that when prisoners are released from prison they can immediately go out and get a gun. It just makes me feel so safe and all warm and fuzzy.

As I said, I am happy that anyone that can produce a local DL can buy a gun.

If they are allowed to have a US DL, they can have a gun.

I never said background checks are illegal, I said they were unconstitutional.

As for the NRA, they compromise when they shouldn't.

"We keep our guns, and you can have them when you kill us" should be their stance.

As for prisoners, prison is to rehabilitate.

If you haven't rehabilitated you shouldn't release.

If you have rehabilitated, they can be trusted with a gun.

Prisoners can have a DL and prisons are for punishment. People are

routinely released with the full knowledge of the courts, psychologists

and social workers that the person is NOT rehabilitated, but they have

served their time and thus are released. It's the law and we don't get

to pick and chose which ones we follow, including the one about

background checks.

And since when is unconstitutional not against the law?

[NanLaew]

With regard to the recent horrors in Boston, the locals there are partying in the streets and celebrating the 'job well done' by their local law enforcement and the Feds. All the law abiding gun owners in the Boston area stayed inside during the lock down and let law enforcement, including the Feds, take care of this like the good, responsible, law-abiding gun owners that they are.

We haven't had a peep from the NRA on any of this. I guess they are privately, very pissed that it ended quickly with little drama (apart from the 'live coverage' media effort) and minimal loss of life. If it had turned out bad, that odious gobshite CEO & EVP Wayne LaPierre would have been railing on air for the constitutional need for RPG's in every American home.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts which are nothing more than speculation and replies have been deleted. Please stay on topic.

[chuckd]

Oh please. The vast majority of the democrats voted with the overwhelming public opinion on background checks. The vast majority republicans voted AGAINST the overwhelming public opinion on background checks. They obstructed the will of the people. In my view, this is a massive failure of democracy.

The Senate rule on cloture has been in effect since 1917.

What I am wondering is when will the Democrats learn there is a cloture rule and they must abide by it?

Apparently 95 years of history isn't enough to satisfy some people that the vote was legitimate since Senate rules do not require a simple majority.

[chuckd]

The MIT killing of a police officer shows the fallacy of the suggestion that educational establishments would be safe if adults in them carried guns.

This was late in the evening. The police officer was sitting in his car when subjects 1 and 2 allegedly walked up to the car and shot him.

It is likely the streets were virtually deserted.

Exactly how many armed citizens do you really think would be walking the streets of MIT at 2200 hours anyway?

[Morden]

The MIT killing of a police officer shows the fallacy of the suggestion that educational establishments would be safe if adults in them carried guns.

This was late in the evening. The police officer was sitting in his car when subjects 1 and 2 allegedly walked up to the car and shot him.

It is likely the streets were virtually deserted.

Exactly how many armed citizens do you really think would be walking the streets of MIT at 2200 hours anyway?

So he wasn't alert? If the streets were deserted, someone on security detail would be expected to spot a lone gunman. As I said, the argument for armed adults in educational establishments has no substance. Perhaps gates, fences and locked entrance doors would be more effective - but then that wouldn't sell any guns, would it?

[JDGRUEN]

This is why the greater majority of the U.S. Senate felt they could vote they way they did... Bottom line the American people support having guns in the home. The poll at the link below doesn't speak about gun registration or background checks but it does reflect the enthusiasm for gun ownership and the freedom to have a gun in the home... Law abiding American citizens think that gun ownership and possession is a fine idea.

By a wide 51 to 29 percent margin, more people say a gun in the house makes it safer rather than more dangerous.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/04/18/majority-of-americans-say-guns-make-homes-safer/

Law abiding American citizens have background checks run when buying a gun. Thugs, gang members, bank robbers, terrorists do not...

Edited April 21, 2013 by JDGRUEN

[keemapoot]

This is why the greater majority of the U.S. Senate felt they could vote they way they did... Bottom line the American people support having guns in the home. The poll at the link below doesn't speak about gun registration or background checks but it does reflect the enthusiasm for gun ownership and the freedom to have a gun in the home... Law abiding American citizens think that gun ownership and possession is a fine idea.

By a wide 51 to 29 percent margin, more people say a gun in the house makes it safer rather than more dangerous.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/04/18/majority-of-americans-say-guns-make-homes-safer/

Law abiding American citizens have background checks run when buying a gun. Thugs, gang members, bank robbers, terrorists do not...

Bottom line: many Americans also believe that Dinosaurs pooped on Adas & Eves lawn!

Actually JD is mostly right. It's true that though not vocal about it, most Americans do consent to enjoying the right to own guns. They may not feel as strongly about as the NRA and gun rights activists and most Republicans, but they do generally quietly assent. As someone said recently on a talk show debate about this, people should be talking about "nut control" more than gun control - meaning that there are an awful lot of unbalanced people out there and that is a main cause of the gun violence we witness.

[Jingthing]

An excellent analysis of the political aspects of all this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2013/04/23/yup-radicalized-gop-is-what-killed-expanded-background-checks

Steve Benen reminds us that the death of Toomey-Manchin is also another reminder of just how radical today’s GOP is in historical terms:

There’s an ongoing reluctance among many to appreciate

the scope of Republican radicalization. For many, especially in media,

there’s an assumption that there are two major, mainstream political

parties — one center-left, the other center-right — and an effective

president can govern through competent bipartisan outreach.

Those assumptions are wrong. As we

discussed

in January, outreach doesn’t work because Republicans have reached an

ideological extreme unseen in modern American history. It’s

a quantifiable observation

,

not a subjective one. Even if GOP policymakers were inclined to work

with Obama, they realize that they’d be punished soon after by a primary

challenge — and they know this to be true because it’s happened more

than a few times in recent years (look up names like Crist, Specter,

Bennett, Lugar, etc.).

Edited April 24, 2013 by Scott

[jbrain]

This is why the greater majority of the U.S. Senate felt they could vote they way they did... Bottom line the American people support having guns in the home. The poll at the link below doesn't speak about gun registration or background checks but it does reflect the enthusiasm for gun ownership and the freedom to have a gun in the home... Law abiding American citizens think that gun ownership and possession is a fine idea.

By a wide 51 to 29 percent margin, more people say a gun in the house makes it safer rather than more dangerous.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/04/18/majority-of-americans-say-guns-make-homes-safer/

Law abiding American citizens have background checks run when buying a gun. Thugs, gang members, bank robbers, terrorists do not...

Bottom line: many Americans also believe that Dinosaurs pooped on Adas & Eves lawn!

Actually JD is mostly right. It's true that though not vocal about it, most Americans do consent to enjoying the right to own guns. They may not feel as strongly about as the NRA and gun rights activists and most Republicans, but they do generally quietly assent. As someone said recently on a talk show debate about this, people should be talking about "nut control" more than gun control - meaning that there are an awful lot of unbalanced people out there and that is a main cause of the gun violence we witness.

The other I had this conversation with a gentleman who has lived in the US for an extended period.

He told me that when you as an ols lady get stopped for an innocent traffic law violation, like crossing the continious line between two driving lanes, you will have to keep your hands on top of the steering wheel and the officer will open his gun holster while he approaches your vehicle. And when I is close to the car he may ask you to step outside while keeping your hands visible all the time.

I have never experienced such a behaviour from the police in my country or any other country in the world I have visited.

Do you think this way of approaching is because of the FEW nutcase that are around in the US?

[JDGRUEN]

This is why the greater majority of the U.S. Senate felt they could vote they way they did... Bottom line the American people support having guns in the home. The poll at the link below doesn't speak about gun registration or background checks but it does reflect the enthusiasm for gun ownership and the freedom to have a gun in the home... Law abiding American citizens think that gun ownership and possession is a fine idea.

By a wide 51 to 29 percent margin, more people say a gun in the house makes it safer rather than more dangerous.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2013/04/18/majority-of-americans-say-guns-make-homes-safer/

Law abiding American citizens have background checks run when buying a gun. Thugs, gang members, bank robbers, terrorists do not...

Bottom line: many Americans also believe that Dinosaurs pooped on Adas & Eves lawn!

Actually JD is mostly right. It's true that though not vocal about it, most Americans do consent to enjoying the right to own guns. They may not feel as strongly about as the NRA and gun rights activists and most Republicans, but they do generally quietly assent. As someone said recently on a talk show debate about this, people should be talking about "nut control" more than gun control - meaning that there are an awful lot of unbalanced people out there and that is a main cause of the gun violence we witness.

The other I had this conversation with a gentleman who has lived in the US for an extended period.

He told me that when you as an ols lady get stopped for an innocent traffic law violation, like crossing the continious line between two driving lanes, you will have to keep your hands on top of the steering wheel and the officer will open his gun holster while he approaches your vehicle. And when I is close to the car he may ask you to step outside while keeping your hands visible all the time.

I have never experienced such a behaviour from the police in my country or any other country in the world I have visited.

Do you think this way of approaching is because of the FEW nutcase that are around in the US?

Just because you have not been exposed to what you describe - doesn't make it mean anything dire. In many states we have licensed concealed carry and also in some states it is allowable to carry a gun in a car when traveling. We think nothing of it. It has become common place for courteous drivers to place their hands on top of the steering wheel before even being asked. The officer often asks if you have a gun in the car or on your person. Some will ask if you have a concealed carry permit or if you are traveling or even to see the gun. If a computer check comes back showing any wants or warrants - then don't be carrying a gun in a car or on your person. What goes on in America - goes on - it is not such a big deal - sorry you seem to be shocked. This doesn't have a thing to do with gun nuts - it has to do with wide scale ownership of guns by close to 100 million law abiding people people all according to the Constitution and the law. The other 200 million just don't seem to want one and that is their choice in a free society.

Edited April 23, 2013 by JDGRUEN

[JDGRUEN]

An excellent analysis of the political aspects of all this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2013/04/23/yup-radicalized-gop-is-what-killed-expanded-background-checks

Steve Benen reminds us that the death of Toomey-Manchin is also another reminder of just how radical today’s GOP is in historical terms:

There’s an ongoing reluctance among many to appreciate

the scope of Republican radicalization. For many, especially in media,

there’s an assumption that there are two major, mainstream political

parties — one center-left, the other center-right — and an effective

president can govern through competent bipartisan outreach.

Those assumptions are wrong. As we discussed

in January, outreach doesn’t work because Republicans have reached an

ideological extreme unseen in modern American history. It’s a quantifiable observation,

not a subjective one. Even if GOP policymakers were inclined to work

with Obama, they realize that they’d be punished soon after by a primary

challenge — and they know this to be true because it’s happened more

than a few times in recent years (look up names like Crist, Specter,

Bennett, Lugar, etc.).

<

blockquote>

Republicans and Conservatives have not become radicalized - we have stayed mostly in place in our political principles. The huge gulf between Republicans / Conservatives and the Democrats / Liberals in America can be better accounted for by taking note of the deep dive off the political cliff American liberals have taken in the last 15 more more years.

Traditional liberals in the Democrat party have lost all power to the uber radical Leftists who have even gone past those who wish to call themselves Progressives. The gulf between the political parties has become the Grand Canyon and in my belief there is no going back. The Leftists lead the U.S. Democrat party around by a rope tied to a ring in their collective noses and are dragging what once was a party of mostly reasonable people headlong into Socialism - and even Communism... We have just been waving goodbye to the leftist zealots as they jump over the cliff. Conservatives in America belief in a core of Principled Ideals based on the U.S.Constitution personal liberty and freedom. The Democrat Liberals - now dominated by Leftists and moving deeper to the Left do not have Principles - their policies are emotional knee jerk reactions, victim mongering, sowing dissension, planting racism, dividing the country, creating hate among the social classes, spending money wildly, controlling the population and making excuses for every imaginable type of craziness they can invent. Other than that - they are 'OK' folks - hehehehehehe....

Edited April 23, 2013 by JDGRUEN

[NeverSure]

It always surprises me that gun issues in the US make so much news, and that others make so much noise about it.

The US has far fewer gun deaths per capita than the most dangerous countries, including Thailand. If you want to keep busy, just read the news in Thailand, with less than 1/5 the population.

Here's a chart showing gun murders per 100,000 people, which would calm logical minds. I doubt if it will affect irrational or hysterical minds which are run by emotion instead of facts.

Link

[keemapoot]

^Neversure, very interesting and illuminating statistic. More importantly, Thailand has quite strict guns laws. I'd venture that the overwhelming majority of gun crimes in Thailand are committed using illegal weapons, though don't have the numbers to back it up.

[NeverSure]

^Neversure, very interesting and illuminating statistic. More importantly, Thailand has quite strict guns laws. I'd venture that the overwhelming majority of gun crimes in Thailand are committed using illegal weapons, though don't have the numbers to back it up.

Yes, many of the posters here are sitting in one of the most dangerous places on earth. Many call it many things, but all accept the obvious danger. Thailand also appears to be the balcony jumping capital of the world but I can't prove it.

I brought out Thailand only because of the hypocrisy. People living and posting from a place with ten times the chance of being killed by a gun are focused obsessively on a place where they aren't, which poses them no danger, but go on and on for days about it.

I won't say any more because I'm pretty damn frustrated with the ignorance, and the attempt to butt into what is actually none of their business.

[DocN]

^Neversure, very interesting and illuminating statistic. More importantly, Thailand has quite strict guns laws. I'd venture that the overwhelming majority of gun crimes in Thailand are committed using illegal weapons, though don't have the numbers to back it up.

Thailand has many laws. They are not enforced mostly!...as we ALL know...