Understanding Airline Pricing, Not So.

[tartempion]

I will be travelling to Bangkok from Brussels this Sunday on my return leg, business class.

Bought the ticket online directly wit the airline during a 4 days short promotion period, paid 73K something.

Incidentally, today I check the plane load with expertflyer.com (a paying website) and notice to my surprise ample seat availability in all booking (price) classes.

Next I navigate to the airline's website and check pricing same day to Bangkok and return one month later: 1925 euro, approx 72K at today's exchange rate.

Then I check pricing same dates Bangkok-europe return 103K, That's +30K or +800 euros.

I plan a similar trip for August/September and get similar prices (100k+)

Why the airline(s) play these games is beyond me (30k baht more in one direction than in the other direction)

Been checking prices on other airlines to FRA, AMS, CDG and find prices around 87-90k. Drawback on extra train/car travel make me hesitant to go for alternative airports for the time being.

Seriously, considering a 30k price difference between both directions I begin to think I will not buy a business class ticket at prices beyond 2000 euros.

I hold FF gold with that airline but all airlines have reduced their perks lately, airline fidelity has become less of an issue.

I do not understand marketing motives behind these pricing strategies. OK, high season not same dates for both directions, but what else?

[impulse]

Airlines have finely tuned computer programs that set prices based on millions of data points they get whenever they sell (or don't sell) a seat.

If you "understand" their pricing, you're ahead of all the other humans on the planet.

[Upnotover]

I would guess that you are going to Brussels because you have to, and you are coming back to Thailand because you want to. The airlines understand that.

[USNret]

If you are P.O.'d about it, that means airlines sucked as much money from you as possible. That was their purpose all along, so I would chalk it up to a Big Win for the airline.

[yermanee]

To bad WilliaminBKK is no longer with us, perhaps he could make us a bit wiser on pricing policies.

However as you know my favorite airline is Oman Air who's promotion price has been hovering auround 89.000 Baht for quite some while now.

It's only when Qatar comes with a flash promotion that is more than 10.000 Baht cheaper that I book with them, as for my next week flight to Brussels. for which I paid 72.000 Baht..

Etihad has blown it for me, as has Emirates, and Gulf is a lottery as far as flat bed service is concerned.

So same as you not much to choose from.

Guess we will have to live with it.

Yermanee

[tartempion]

I read you Yermanee....

But 30k difference between directions and I could buy that not-so-expensive ticket today to fly Sunday, where I usually buy the ticket months in advance...

I consider EVA to AMS at 87K, they have renovated business class, named Royal Laurel, B777/300ER, free bus to BRU.

Then Oman at 89k to FRA, arriving FRA 18.35 might be difficult to get train that late.

Now found Etihad to BRU at 90K but have to change travel plans, travel late July, return early September (I hold business ticket on AC to Montreal mid August, that was something also: one day 2350 eur, other day 1865, found ex-FRA at 1600)

I considered Jet Airways BKK-BRU-Toronto at 120k, but then still had to travel YYZ-YUL, choose AC BRU-YUL for conviency instead

Then there is this Qatar economy promotion, 31k if I also change my dates to late july, I might just go for this, back to cattle class...saving 60K baht!

Edited April 25, 2013 by tartempion

[hansnl]

To bad WilliaminBKK is no longer with us, perhaps he could make us a bit wiser on pricing policies.

However as you know my favorite airline is Oman Air who's promotion price has been hovering auround 89.000 Baht for quite some while now.

It's only when Qatar comes with a flash promotion that is more than 10.000 Baht cheaper that I book with them, as for my next week flight to Brussels. for which I paid 72.000 Baht..

Etihad has blown it for me, as has Emirates, and Gulf is a lottery as far as flat bed service is concerned.

So same as you not much to choose from.

Guess we will have to live with it.

Yermanee

I will take over from Williamin BKK

It is very simple.

The airlines make agreements.

And one of the points is they will all, more or less, have the same pricing.

Another one is they will all charge more for flights originating in Bangkok.

And another one is they will sell you their pricing as market orientated, while in fact it is, errr.......money grabbing?

There is another one, for 20 kilo too much luggage they will charge you nearly the price of another single ticket.

My advice?

Try to find a company that charges you the lowest price, gives you 30 kilo luggage freedom.

Even if it not a diriect flight.

In short?

Bastards

Guess we will have to live with it.

That is exactly where the bastards are counting on you to do!

Edited April 25, 2013 by hansnl

[richard_smith237]

Etihad has blown it for me, as has Emirates, and Gulf is a lottery as far as flat bed service is concerned.

Yermanee

Why has etihad blown it for you ?

I just had a quick look online for summer flights to UK... about THB 95,000 online - travel agents that I use can usually knock and additional THB 5000 off that.. so I'm guessing I can get a flight with Etihad for about THB 90,000 each (for wife and I).

As Eithad also have their chauffeur drive (in the UK within a 100 mile radius) I still find them one of the most competitive airlines.

I used to see one or two 2 for 1 business class deals (of course when I was single), alas now I'm married I never see them !

Bring back the THB 75000 Emirates flights of 5-6 years ago !!! (to UK).

[yermanee]

Etihad has blown it for me, as has Emirates, and Gulf is a lottery as far as flat bed service is concerned.

Yermanee

Why has etihad blown it for you ?

I just had a quick look online for summer flights to UK... about THB 95,000 online - travel agents that I use can usually knock and additional THB 5000 off that.. so I'm guessing I can get a flight with Etihad for about THB 90,000 each (for wife and I).

As Eithad also have their chauffeur drive (in the UK within a 100 mile radius) I still find them one of the most competitive airlines.

I used to see one or two 2 for 1 business class deals (of course when I was single), alas now I'm married I never see them !

Bring back the THB 75000 Emirates flights of 5-6 years ago !!! (to UK).

It's a matter of principle.

Used to be gold member with Etihad, and a couple of years ago I asked them to send me a new membership card, because I had not received one for the new calendar year. This was in March. The reply I got was that I could get a new card but I had to pay for it.

When I told them I had NOT received the card in the first place the politely told me they did send one (which I never received) and that a new one would cost administrative fees.

That drew the line for me.

Cheers

Yermanee

[richard_smith237]

Etihad has blown it for me, as has Emirates, and Gulf is a lottery as far as flat bed service is concerned.

Yermanee

Why has etihad blown it for you ?

I just had a quick look online for summer flights to UK... about THB 95,000 online - travel agents that I use can usually knock and additional THB 5000 off that.. so I'm guessing I can get a flight with Etihad for about THB 90,000 each (for wife and I).

As Eithad also have their chauffeur drive (in the UK within a 100 mile radius) I still find them one of the most competitive airlines.

I used to see one or two 2 for 1 business class deals (of course when I was single), alas now I'm married I never see them !

Bring back the THB 75000 Emirates flights of 5-6 years ago !!! (to UK).

It's a matter of principle.

Used to be gold member with Etihad, and a couple of years ago I asked them to send me a new membership card, because I had not received one for the new calendar year. This was in March. The reply I got was that I could get a new card but I had to pay for it.

When I told them I had NOT received the card in the first place the politely told me they did send one (which I never received) and that a new one would cost administrative fees.

That drew the line for me.

Cheers

Yermanee

Sounds pretty short sighted of them... (I don't have my card either, I just keep the FF number on file).

Was this the Thai office or the International one ?

The reason I ask: When booking a return from Paris a few years ago I was told by the Etihad Thai office that I couldn't book a pickup time for the Chauffeur drive (Hotel near Gare Du Norde to the airport). Regardless, I demanded a pickup time of 4 hours before the flight, which would have got us to the Airport 3 hours before the flight. I was told this was too early. I told them I had no intention of waiting in a Cold Paris station in January (I'd rather wait the 3 hours in the airport lounge !). When the car didn't turn up on time my Wife and I took a taxi to the airport.

On the way we received a call from the driver, he was an hour late (as per the booking he received from Etihad). The Thai lady in the Etihad office had made the booking so that I arrived 2 hours before my flight, not the booking I requested).

I received 25,000 miles from Etihad as an apology.

The previous year, when making exactly the same bookings - the travel agent dealt with Etihad UAE, we had a driver waiting as we got off the TGV on our arrival at Gare Du Nord.

I've also had a couple of issues where seat bookings have been lost (given to flying employees by ground staff resting in my wife and I sitting apart).

In short - The Etihad Thai office are tripping over themselves, for whatever reasons the lady there is useless and doesn't do much to help the customer.

With this in mind - I still find them them best price for a flat bed business class flight (but customer service is indeed lacking). I am now very careful when booking the chauffeur drive. Other than that I still find them a good airline, all I want is a flat bed and half a Xanax !

Anyway - I've taken the thread off topic - Apologies.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

I just booked a return economy flight with BA LHR/BKK/LHR, one year validity, direct non-stop flight, free change of return date for just under 25K Baht (equiv.) and let us not forget that this is a flight emanating from the country that has the highest outgoing flight taxes in the world. The same flights booked the other way around BKK/LHR/BKK would have cost me 45K Baht. That's nearly double.

But apart from the blatant price-fixing in regard to flights originating locally (cartels operating in Thailand? surely not ), I wonder just how free the airlines are to export the Baht that they may get from ticket sales here, and whether they aren't happy to bump up the prices to cover the extra costs they may entail in doing so? There may be extra corporation tax or other taxes payable on sales made here also. Once they have paid for local costs like services, fuel, food and running their offices in Thailand (if any) there may not be much else they can do with the money here.

[LisuLover]

EVA Business class to BKK at night, coupled with EVA Premium economy lunchtime return to LHR, works well for me. I watch 3 movies and save £200.

[poohy]

I would guess that you are going to Brussels because you have to, and you are coming back to Thailand because you want to. The airlines understand that.

A very good way of describing Airline pricing from Bangkok!! .....spot on

[EddieBaBaBoBo]

Here is a humorous scenario written by Al Hess published in Travel Weekly, October 15, 1998, that highlighted some of the crazy pricing practices of the airlines ---- they have only gotten worse in the past 14+ years!!!

THIS IS A CONVERSATION YOU WOULD HAVE BUYING PAINT FROM A HARDWARE STORE:

Customer:
Hello. How much is your paint?

Clerk:
We have good quality paint for $12 a gallon and premium quality for $18. How many gallons would you like?

Customer:
Five gallons of good quality paint, please.

Clerk:
That will be $60 plus tax. Thank you and have a nice day.

THIS IS A CONVERSATION YOU WOULD HAVE IF YOU BOUGHT PAINT FROM AN AIRLINE:

Customer:
Hello, How much is your paint?

Clerk:
Well...it depends on your circumstances.

Customer:
Depends on what circumstances?

Clerk:
Actually, a lot of things.

Customer:
Okay, how about giving me an average price?

Clerk:
That is difficult to answer. The lowest price is $9 a gallon, and we have 42 different prices up to $200 a gallon.

Customer:
What's the difference in the paint?

Clerk:
Oh, there isn't any difference; it's all the same paint.

Customer:
I'd like some of the $9 paint.

Clerk:
I have to check if we have any $9 paint available. When do you intend to use the paint?

Customer:
I want to paint tomorrow, on my day off.

Clerk:
Sir, the paint for tomorrow will cost $200.

Customer:
What?! When would I have to paint in order to get the $9 paint?

Clerk:
That would be in three weeks. But you will also have to agree to start painting before Friday of that week and continue painting until at least Sunday. I'll check to see if we have any of that paint available.

Customer:
What do you mean check to see if it's available? Your shelves are full of paint; I can see it right there.

Clerk:
It may be the same paint, but we sell only a certain number of gallons on any given weekend. Oh, I noticed we don't have any of the $9 paint available. The lowest price available now is $12.

Customer:
You mean the price went up while we were talking?!

Clerk:
Yes, sir. We change prices and rules throughout the day and since you haven't actually purchased your paint yet, you must pay the current price. Unless you want the same thing to happen again, I would suggest that you get on with your purchase. How many gallons do you want?

Customer:
I don't know exactly. I will buy five gallons. Maybe I should buy six gallons just to make sure I have enough.

Clerk:
Oh, no, sir, you can't do that. If you buy the paint and then don't use it, you will be liable for penalties and we will take the remaining paint from you.

Customer:
What?!

Clerk:
That's right. We can sell you enough paint to do your kitchen, bathroom, hall, and bedrooms, but if you stop painting before you paint the bedrooms, you will violate our inventory and tariff rules.

Customer:
But what does it matter to you whether I use all the paint? I already paid you for it!

Clerk:
Sir, there's no point in getting upset; that's just the way it is. We make plans based upon the idea that you will use all the paint, and when you don't, it just causes us all sorts of problems.

Customer:
I'm going somewhere else to buy my paint.

Clerk:
That won't do you any good, sir. All paint stores have the same price rules.

[Baerboxer]

A number of airlines have been exposed recently for cartel agreements and also price fixing of surcharges. Yet, still this very blatant "fixing" continues.

EU fined a number of airlines for not removing fuel surcharges when fuel prices fell, but agreeing to "absorb" them into the new ticket prices instead. (I believe Lufthansa blew the whistle to get imunity from prosecution. The Aussies find some - wasn't Thai one of them.

I have worked with several travel buying experts in Europe and Middle East. Ask anyone of them to explain airlines pricing policies. All boils down to everyone knows it's a racket but no one wants to do anything about it.

[SeaVisionBurma]

Inappropriate post removed.

[MAJIC]

Here is a humorous scenario written by Al Hess published in Travel Weekly, October 15, 1998, that highlighted some of the crazy pricing practices of the airlines ---- they have only gotten worse in the past 14+ years!!!

THIS IS A CONVERSATION YOU WOULD HAVE BUYING PAINT FROM A HARDWARE STORE:

Customer:

Hello. How much is your paint?

Clerk:

We have good quality paint for $12 a gallon and premium quality for $18. How many gallons would you like?

Customer:

Five gallons of good quality paint, please.

Clerk:

That will be $60 plus tax. Thank you and have a nice day.

THIS IS A CONVERSATION YOU WOULD HAVE IF YOU BOUGHT PAINT FROM AN AIRLINE:

Customer:

Hello, How much is your paint?

Clerk:

Well...it depends on your circumstances.

Customer:

Depends on what circumstances?

Clerk:

Actually, a lot of things.

Customer:

Okay, how about giving me an average price?

Clerk:

That is difficult to answer. The lowest price is $9 a gallon, and we have 42 different prices up to $200 a gallon.

Customer:

What's the difference in the paint?

Clerk:

Oh, there isn't any difference; it's all the same paint.

Customer:

I'd like some of the $9 paint.

Clerk:

I have to check if we have any $9 paint available. When do you intend to use the paint?

Customer:

I want to paint tomorrow, on my day off.

Clerk:

Sir, the paint for tomorrow will cost $200.

Customer:

What?! When would I have to paint in order to get the $9 paint?

Clerk:

That would be in three weeks. But you will also have to agree to start painting before Friday of that week and continue painting until at least Sunday. I'll check to see if we have any of that paint available.

Customer:

What do you mean check to see if it's available? Your shelves are full of paint; I can see it right there.

Clerk:

It may be the same paint, but we sell only a certain number of gallons on any given weekend. Oh, I noticed we don't have any of the $9 paint available. The lowest price available now is $12.

Customer:

You mean the price went up while we were talking?!

Clerk:

Yes, sir. We change prices and rules throughout the day and since you haven't actually purchased your paint yet, you must pay the current price. Unless you want the same thing to happen again, I would suggest that you get on with your purchase. How many gallons do you want?

Customer:

I don't know exactly. I will buy five gallons. Maybe I should buy six gallons just to make sure I have enough.

Clerk:

Oh, no, sir, you can't do that. If you buy the paint and then don't use it, you will be liable for penalties and we will take the remaining paint from you.

Customer:

What?!

Clerk:

That's right. We can sell you enough paint to do your kitchen, bathroom, hall, and bedrooms, but if you stop painting before you paint the bedrooms, you will violate our inventory and tariff rules.

Customer:

But what does it matter to you whether I use all the paint? I already paid you for it!

Clerk:

Sir, there's no point in getting upset; that's just the way it is. We make plans based upon the idea that you will use all the paint, and when you don't, it just causes us all sorts of problems.

Customer:

I'm going somewhere else to buy my paint.

Clerk:

That won't do you any good, sir. All paint stores have the same price rules.

Reminds me of the time I was booking a flght for christmas in Thailand,which according to the Airline operator was maximum price from the Departure on the 15th of December to Return on the 5th of January (Travelling Peak Time) So I said "OK I will Depart on the 10th of December,and Return on the 10th of January,out of peak travel time,as I thought. "That will be the same price Sir" I inquired why,as it is out of peak time,he replied: "because you are in Thailand over Christmas Sir,which is peak time"

[dannyol]

When attending a travel professional simenar in Los Angeles a few years ago, one speaker quoted 47 different prices for airline seats on one flight on one particular day. And that was just for coach class. There are just too many variables the airlines use for anyone to understand.

My advice: Buy at least 3 months in advance with the best deal/airline you can find and don't ever look at prices for that flight again (unless you pay full refundable price).

[ABCer]

Airlines are BAD. Their pricing policies suck. But what amuses me all the way is the fact that the 2X price for flying is split roughly 50/50. One half goes to the Airline (bought the plane, bought the fuel, carries you and provides all services from A to Z). The other half goes to Entity summarily called Taxes and Charges. I know they take the money. What else they do I am not sure. Presumably make sure I do not end up inside WTC?

[lomatopo]

Most airllines have multiple business fare class buckets: J/C/D/Z in order from most expensive/least restrictive to least expensive/most restrictive; note that there may also be some associated award and upgrade business class fare buckets. "Z" fares are highly discounted but do have longer-term APEX requirements (advanced purchase - often 60 days); sales and promotions usually book into "Z" class but not always. Usually once the "Z" bucket sells out, maybe just a few seats on a particular segment, then they are gone and you have to buy up to a "D" fare. Airline pricing really isn't that complicated once you understand the fare bucket idea, but you do have to factor in weekday/weekend (W/X) travel, city-pair seasonality (peak, high, shoulder, low), direction, origination point, fuel surcharges (YQ) and a few more details I've forgotten. For economy fares there might upwards of 10 - 14 buckets. Fare buckets are priced as perishable commodities, but fares and seats themselves are not. Airlines charge the most for a last-minute purchase (Y), and will oversell factoring in missed flights/misconnects/sickness/VDB.

[yermanee]

To bad WilliaminBKK is no longer with us, perhaps he could make us a bit wiser on pricing policies.

However as you know my favorite airline is Oman Air who's promotion price has been hovering auround 89.000 Baht for quite some while now.

It's only when Qatar comes with a flash promotion that is more than 10.000 Baht cheaper that I book with them, as for my next week flight to Brussels. for which I paid 72.000 Baht..

Etihad has blown it for me, as has Emirates, and Gulf is a lottery as far as flat bed service is concerned.

So same as you not much to choose from.

Guess we will have to live with it.

Yermanee

I will take over from Williamin BKK

It is very simple.

The airlines make agreements.

And one of the points is they will all, more or less, have the same pricing.

Another one is they will all charge more for flights originating in Bangkok.

And another one is they will sell you their pricing as market orientated, while in fact it is, errr.......money grabbing?

There is another one, for 20 kilo too much luggage they will charge you nearly the price of another single ticket.

My advice?

Try to find a company that charges you the lowest price, gives you 30 kilo luggage freedom.

Even if it not a diriect flight.

In short?

Bastards

Guess we will have to live with it.

That is exactly where the bastards are counting on you to do!

I'm a bit confused here (probably my fault)

What exactly do you propose we can do about it ?

Yermanee

[impulse]

BTW, if you want to have some fun and you're sitting in an airplane full of party people, ask each of them to secretly write on a piece of paper how much they paid for the seat and put the paper into a hat. Then read the numbers out loud.

Let me know how it goes, because:

I haven't really tried that, but it's a perverse plan to get myself banned from an airline without actually doing anything that harms anyone.

Probably wouldn't work unless it was a plane full of partiers.

Once flew back from Beijing to Texas and paid less for my round trip ticket than the lady next to me paid to fly one way from LAX to Houston. We both bought our tickets last minute- me in Beijing and her in California. Go figure.

Edited April 26, 2013 by impulse

[54321]

looked at LHR - BKK - LHR on skyscanner (leave August and return in Feb). They have an option to update you on the daily price, and over the next 2or 3 weeks the e mailed updates went something like (exactly the same dates and airline)

£511

£586

£534

£491

£512

£588

$499

$484

I bought at £512, but the variance is just crazy

[californiabeachboy]

The problem with trying to do battle with the airlines on pricing is that, like herding cats, you think you have them, then you don't.

I have been flying Cathay Pacific from the US to Thailand for a few years now. I thought I could figure out how to get a good price. But they have changed the game. They now have premium economy.

They are trying to get us cheapo economy flyers to move up to premium, and they do that by taking out economy seats and putting in premium, and at the same time increasing the prices of the economy seats. They are also trying to "nudge" us into premium economy by making the difference between economy and premium economy smaller. A good way to increase prices without making it so obvious that they are increasing prices.

My philosophy is to book the ticket doing the best I can, then move on with my life. If you book the ticket, then keep checking it to see if you got a good deal, you will only suffer.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

looked at LHR - BKK - LHR on skyscanner (leave August and return in Feb). They have an option to update you on the daily price, and over the next 2or 3 weeks the e mailed updates went something like (exactly the same dates and airline)

£511

£586

£534

£491

£512

£588

$499

$484

I bought at £512, but the variance is just crazy

The problem with Skyscanner is that they show multiple prices for companies like Qatar, depending on how long the stopover is in the Middle East. For example, today Qatar have prices from GBP495 for your trip for very long flights (20+ hours) but the lowest price for flights of less than 15 hours duration in both directions is GBP555. Another problem with Skyscanner is that often the cheapest price is from Crystal Travel, and as far as I know it is impossible to actually buy tickets from Crystal Travel at those advertised prices. In fact Crystal Travel seem to be generally rather dodgy, based on online reviews.

[baboon]

The problem with trying to do battle with the airlines on pricing is that, like herding cats, you think you have them, then you don't.

My philosophy is to book the ticket doing the best I can, then move on with my life. If you book the ticket, then keep checking it to see if you got a good deal, you will only suffer.

Not always. The £784 ticket to the UK I bought last week is now £830. The herding cats point, however, was genius!

[Ricardo]

Another problem with Skyscanner is that often the cheapest price is from Crystal Travel, and as far as I know it is impossible to actually buy tickets from Crystal Travel at those advertised prices. In fact Crystal Travel seem to be generally rather dodgy, based on online reviews.

I had a similar experience, using Skyscanner and their friends eDreams, recently.

They appeared to still be showing a cheaper fare for the sames dates/airlines/routes, whilst wanting an extra 80-quid, for the booking I'd actually tried to make with them, and for which they'd charged my credit-card the original-price immediately. Very unsettling, and I won't be using them again anytime soon. Better to use the search-engine, and then book direct, on the airline's own website.

Try googling the name of the agent, and the word 'problems', it's interesting how many hits one gets.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Ricardo

[triffid]

Is it a firm rule (of thumb), as some comments above would suggest, that the price of a return ticket, whether business or economy class, from a european city to Bangkok will be noticeably better than one from Bangkok to the same european city - other factors such as airline, season, duration, etc being equal? I ask this because for the next several years I foresee going regularly to London and Paris, ie at least once a year and usually every 8/9 months.

I shall be going in June for about 8 weeks and I've seen an extremely good one-way fare BKK/CDG on SriLanknan business class of around 30K baht. I'd take that and then look to buy return tickets in Paris of an 8 month validity.

[BlackPuddingBertha]

Every time I check prices it always seems to be a lot cheaper to fly LHR/BKK/LHR than to do it the other way around from here. There is always someone doing an economy 1-year LHR/BKK/LHR ticket for something close to GBP550, no matter when I check it, with the possible exception of Christmas/New Year which of course I would avoid anyway. This year I am flying direct with BA for that price. Previously it was Qatar and Emirates.

In comparison the offers available here (if any) seem to only to be available from time to time and rarely seem to allow for long ticket validity. Of course if you are just wanting to visit Europe for a week or two and then come straight back that isnt an issue. There is also the exchange rate question when buying here; if using a foreign card there may be some exchange commission to add to the cost.

I have no idea about business class as I have never seen the point of spending so much extra just to get a wider seat for a few hours, and perhaps some better quality nuts with my beer. I got a free upgrade to business once a decade or so ago and whilst it was nice enough it just didnt thrill me. YMMV

[triffid]

Every time I check prices it always seems to be a lot cheaper to fly LHR/BKK/LHR than to do it the other way around from here. There is always someone doing an economy 1-year LHR/BKK/LHR ticket for something close to GBP550, no matter when I check it, with the possible exception of Christmas/New Year which of course I would avoid anyway. This year I am flying direct with BA for that price. Previously it was Qatar and Emirates.

In comparison the offers available here (if any) seem to only to be available from time to time and rarely seem to allow for long ticket validity. Of course if you are just wanting to visit Europe for a week or two and then come straight back that isnt an issue. There is also the exchange rate question when buying here; if using a foreign card there may be some exchange commission to add to the cost.

I have no idea about business class as I have never seen the point of spending so much extra just to get a wider seat for a few hours, and perhaps some better quality nuts with my beer. I got a free upgrade to business once a decade or so ago and whilst it was nice enough it just didnt thrill me. YMMV

Thanks for that info. I did know that the could be, or in the past used to be, a lot cheaper; I wanted confirmation that this was still the case. Given the choice I'd rather use Paris than London as the european city, though London is feasible too.

Now if someone can report similar experience vis a vis Paris......