Montclair Wine

[chiang mai]

I know almost nothing about wine making but aren't the two main criteria for growing good grapes supposed to be sunshine and soil quality? That being true I would guess that northern Thailand might stand a chance in the wine growing stakes, all other factors being equal.

Sorry, I posted this just as the above post was recieved hence an overlap - it looks like you answered my question, albeit before I asked it.

Edited May 16, 2013 by chiang mai

[xylophone]

I know almost nothing about wine making but aren't the two main criteria for growing good grapes supposed to be sunshine and soil quality? That being true I would guess that northern Thailand might stand a chance in the wine growing stakes, all other factors being equal.

Sorry, I posted this just as the above post was recieved hence an overlap - it looks like you answered my question, albeit before I asked it.

No problems with the overlap and you are quite right as regards sunshine and soil quality being important for growing grapes. As I said, the humidity would be one of the main problems here, however another one would quite possibly be the moisture content in the soil?

Now I am no expert on grape growing in Thailand, however most of the land I have seen seems to be fairly moist, especially around the cooler regions and one thing that really does make a "good grape" is the fact that the vine goes deep into the soil to pick up the moisture and nutrients that it needs, and generally speaking the deeper the better, without putting too much stress on the vine. A good root system for the vine is very important and I wonder whether the vines grown in Thailand would need to go that deep because moisture and nutrients would be more available nearer the surface.

That is just my take on it, and I could well be wrong, however the moisture part as previously mentioned would almost certainly be true.

[chiang mai]

Given that Chiang Mai province is notorious for the burning season during March/April, I wonder if there's any mileage in a smoked wine perhaps?

Thought not, I'll get my coat!

But more seriously, I will keep my eyes open on this subject and report back anything I find of interest, I might even give give the subject the taste test also!

[eezergood]

There are Thai wines - hideously over priced for their 'drinking value'

[madmitch]

Through this discussion's recommendation, I bought a bottle of 30 Mile Shiraz yesterday at Wine Connection and it was pretty good. OK, more expensive than Montclair but a different class. 445 baht isn't bad for a reasonable wine in Thailand. I'd expect to pay 5 to 6 pounds for something of equivalent quality in the UK. At least that's what i think though being somewhat wine-starved here it could be my taste buds are not working properly.

[KarenBravo]

I buy wine using a tried and trusted method that I have developed over the years because I know nothing about wine.

1. Buy red wine.

2. Don't buy the cheapest in the shop, nor the most expensive. Mid-range price is good.

3. Pick the prettiest label.

Works every time.

[eezergood]

The 30 mile Shiraz would probably taste ok after walking 30 miles before drinking it!

[jocko]

Quote jocko: "And just to add a useless piece of info I worked in Algeria in the late 70s and as you know the French had control of Algeria until they had a revolution but the Algerians told us when it become obvious to the French that it was a lost cause they took all the grape vines back to France .But I can say the Algerians had a go themselves to make wine and trust me you never tasted anything like it you just left the bottom quarter in the bottle".

Thank you for your kind feedback jocko and in my book there is no useless piece of information about wine because it is such a fascinating subject. I know what you mean about the North African wine because I worked in Libya in 1970 and tasted some of the red wine which was produced as a result of the Italian influence, and it was awful – – the best use was probably for cleaning autoparts, but to alcohol-starved expats working in the Sahara desert it was a saviour!

Algeria however has a better history than that because in the recent past the French planted a couple of grape varieties, Carignan and Cinsault, which were prolific growers and needed very little attention in the vineyards and could grow just about anywhere, especially in the dry soil/sand, and this was the backbone of the Algerian wine industry. It made a very average drinking wine, however if tended carefully it could make an acceptable wine with good alcohol content and some tannins.

Indeed, there was a good trade in this wine between Algeria and France in the 60s and early 70s, where it was imported into France to be blended with wines which lacked backbone due to poor vintages (or earlier because of the destruction of the vines by the phylloxera pest).

Consider the plight of the winemakers in France when bad weather hits/a bad vintage is in the offing – – in Bordeaux the winemaker has some better options because the typical Bordeaux wine is a blend of Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, Merlot, Malbec and Petit Verdot, so he can play around with the mix to make perhaps a "better wine" when a poor vintage hits. Not so with the poor Burgundian wine maker whose only grape is the Pinot Noir, a fickle grape at the best of times and when a poor vintage hits, the wine produced is best described as thin, sour lolly water, which can be improved with the addition of a little sugar (another subject altogether), however when it is poor it is very poor.

What the wine makers did, and still do to a certain extent, was to search around for a wine to blend with their Burgundy in order to make it "more acceptable" shall we say. That wine came from Algeria, the Southern Rhône/Languedoc and even Italy. "Not so", I hear the French winemakers say, however they were a little caught out in the recent past when the French farmers decided to throw another demonstration and blockade the ports and roads into the country, only to find that several tankers full of cheap Italian blending wine were held up at the Italian/French border!!

For the record, small amounts of Carignan are still grown in the south of France, and some vignerons tend the remaining vines carefully to make a reasonably good wine, mostly used in blends. Cinsault is also grown and in greater quantities than Carignan and is also used in blends, one in particular being Chateauneuf du Papes.

Are you Hugh Johnson secretly living in Thailand?

[churchill]

My vote goes to Bodegas , 3L Box in Samui at 728 Baht ... Check the date should be 2012 and I store in the fridge to drink slightly chilled . & imo much better than the rest at about that price for every day drinking ..

Mont Clair , Cedar Creek or Jimberoo to me taste quite similar and the US box , Peter Vella , is not much better

[xylophone]

Quote jocko: "Are you Hugh Johnson secretly living in Thailand?"

Hi jocko, I wish!!! It would be great to have tasted all of the wines he has tasted, along with all of the fine food, and still have a few squillion dollars/pounds in the bank. But no, I am just a guy who has made wine a hobby and studied it for over 40 years and who has been lucky enough to afford to buy some good wines in my time, own a wine cellar, visit vineyards in France, New Zealand and Australia and associate with wine merchants and people in the trade.

And thank you for the compliment by the way. I try to remember everything I write, rather than look it up online as I don't want to waste the knowledge I have accumulated and also need to exercise the grey matter to ensure that it stays active for as long as possible.

On a related note about your wine tasting experience in Algeria, if you really want to taste what a reasonable wine made from Carignan grapes can taste like, then visit the Wine Connection and buy a bottle of the "De Chansac" 2011 Vieilles Vignes (old vines) Carignan, as it is a stand-alone Carignan which is rather rare these days. It costs about 379 baht but may well be worth trying so that you can compare the two, and I would suggest there would be no comparison even though this wine is not a stunner by any means, however it is a clean well-made wine with just a slightly different taste than many of the others you may have experienced.

I would suggest it is chilled before drinking as I do that with all of my red wines here, and try and drink it as it moves through its "optimum temperature range" for drinking rather than the 28 or 29° which can be quite commonplace. Red wine at too high a temperature brings through what are known as volatile aromas and these can spoil the wine or make it taste completely different to what it would be if it were drunk at a relatively lower temperature – – they always say room temperature, but of course that varies!!! What works for me is somewhere around 20 to 24° if one indeed can be that precise.

I would be interested to know what you think of it.

[churchill]

If I am looking for a decent well priced wine in Thailand , I will always avoid those from Europe unless I specifically know the vineyard ...

Cheap red wine is fine in France but not if it is exported ..

I would normally go for AUS or NZ but Chile , Argentina , and South Africa also have well priced good quality wines , and from Europe Spanish best bet .

I know nothing of Algerian wines but there was a very good Corsican house style wine on sale a few years ago... very drinkable

[eezergood]

If I am looking for a decent well priced wine in Thailand , I will always avoid those from Europe unless I specifically know the vineyard ...

Cheap red wine is fine in France but not if it is exported ..

I would normally go for AUS or NZ but Chile , Argentina , and South Africa also have well priced good quality wines , and from Europe Spanish best bet .

I know nothing of Algerian wines but there was a very good Corsican house style wine on sale a few years ago... very drinkable

Corsica produces some fantastic wines - truly complex whites with astonishing alcohol levels 14-15 is common without the residual sugar taste & good dry finishes. Although the names escape me, as I probably consumed a fair few........

[xylophone]

If I am looking for a decent well priced wine in Thailand , I will always avoid those from Europe unless I specifically know the vineyard ...

Cheap red wine is fine in France but not if it is exported ..

I would normally go for AUS or NZ but Chile , Argentina , and South Africa also have well priced good quality wines , and from Europe Spanish best bet .

I know nothing of Algerian wines but there was a very good Corsican house style wine on sale a few years ago... very drinkable

Yes a good bet to go for the Australian, Chile and an Argentinian wines over here because they do have more body than most, although the New Zealand wines tend to be a little expensive and not of the same quality as the Australian red wines at the same price.

Spanish wines here I have found to be very disappointing with a lot of rubbish being shipped (not to mention the box of disgusting Spanish Shiraz) with three out of the four bottles I tried being oxidised, which I was fairly sure was because it was old wine, nearing its end of life before being bottled and shipped off to some poor unsuspecting market, and the better wines from Spain such as Rioja and those from the Ribera del Duero are rarely seen and if they are they are expensive.

If you know of a good Spanish wine I should try, then I would welcome your recommendation.

The Algerian wine comments came because both myself and jocko experienced the rubbish wine that was produced in North Africa many years ago, are not to be taken seriously as a wine!!

If you really want to try a good red wine which bridges the old world with the new world, then try the "Rare Vineyards" Cabernet Sauvignon/Syrah from Wine Connection, at about 499 baht per bottle, and you will see how some of the southern French winemakers have risen to the challenge, whereas many others haven't and there are still a lot of cheap and nasty French wines around, unfortunately doing nothing for the reputation of that country after all these years. This especially sad when it still produces the best fine wines in the world.

Have mixed feelings about the South African wines here because although some of them are okay, none really stand out much and some of the Cabernet Sauvignons and the blends do suffer from an un-ripeness in the Cabernet Sauvignon grape, giving rise to a little astringency and herbaceousness, resulting in a little bit of a bitter finish.

[jocko]

Quote jocko: "Are you Hugh Johnson secretly living in Thailand?"

Hi jocko, I wish!!! It would be great to have tasted all of the wines he has tasted, along with all of the fine food, and still have a few squillion dollars/pounds in the bank. But no, I am just a guy who has made wine a hobby and studied it for over 40 years and who has been lucky enough to afford to buy some good wines in my time, own a wine cellar, visit vineyards in France, New Zealand and Australia and associate with wine merchants and people in the trade.

And thank you for the compliment by the way. I try to remember everything I write, rather than look it up online as I don't want to waste the knowledge I have accumulated and also need to exercise the grey matter to ensure that it stays active for as long as possible.

On a related note about your wine tasting experience in Algeria, if you really want to taste what a reasonable wine made from Carignan grapes can taste like, then visit the Wine Connection and buy a bottle of the "De Chansac" 2011 Vieilles Vignes (old vines) Carignan, as it is a stand-alone Carignan which is rather rare these days. It costs about 379 baht but may well be worth trying so that you can compare the two, and I would suggest there would be no comparison even though this wine is not a stunner by any means, however it is a clean well-made wine with just a slightly different taste than many of the others you may have experienced.

I would suggest it is chilled before drinking as I do that with all of my red wines here, and try and drink it as it moves through its "optimum temperature range" for drinking rather than the 28 or 29° which can be quite commonplace. Red wine at too high a temperature brings through what are known as volatile aromas and these can spoil the wine or make it taste completely different to what it would be if it were drunk at a relatively lower temperature – – they always say room temperature, but of course that varies!!! What works for me is somewhere around 20 to 24° if one indeed can be that precise.

I would be interested to know what you think of it.

i am spoiled for choice right now as i am back in the UK so it's Rioja all the way but i will take note of all the wines mentioned and try them out there is nothing worse when you are looking and you dont know what to buy. Your right about room temperature what does that mean in Thailand.

Keep up the good work.

[xylophone]

Quote jocko: "Are you Hugh Johnson secretly living in Thailand?"

Hi jocko, I wish!!! It would be great to have tasted all of the wines he has tasted, along with all of the fine food, and still have a few squillion dollars/pounds in the bank. But no, I am just a guy who has made wine a hobby and studied it for over 40 years and who has been lucky enough to afford to buy some good wines in my time, own a wine cellar, visit vineyards in France, New Zealand and Australia and associate with wine merchants and people in the trade.

And thank you for the compliment by the way. I try to remember everything I write, rather than look it up online as I don't want to waste the knowledge I have accumulated and also need to exercise the grey matter to ensure that it stays active for as long as possible.

On a related note about your wine tasting experience in Algeria, if you really want to taste what a reasonable wine made from Carignan grapes can taste like, then visit the Wine Connection and buy a bottle of the "De Chansac" 2011 Vieilles Vignes (old vines) Carignan, as it is a stand-alone Carignan which is rather rare these days. It costs about 379 baht but may well be worth trying so that you can compare the two, and I would suggest there would be no comparison even though this wine is not a stunner by any means, however it is a clean well-made wine with just a slightly different taste than many of the others you may have experienced.

I would suggest it is chilled before drinking as I do that with all of my red wines here, and try and drink it as it moves through its "optimum temperature range" for drinking rather than the 28 or 29° which can be quite commonplace. Red wine at too high a temperature brings through what are known as volatile aromas and these can spoil the wine or make it taste completely different to what it would be if it were drunk at a relatively lower temperature – – they always say room temperature, but of course that varies!!! What works for me is somewhere around 20 to 24° if one indeed can be that precise.

I would be interested to know what you think of it.

i am spoiled for choice right now as i am back in the UK so it's Rioja all the way but i will take note of all the wines mentioned and try them out there is nothing worse when you are looking and you dont know what to buy. Your right about room temperature what does that mean in Thailand.

Keep up the good work.

Lucky man jocko.........would love to be drinking a good Rioja right now!!

The term "room temperature" was originally applied to wines consumed in France and the UK (for example) so doesn't really compute to Thailand. I believe if you chill a red wine here and let it get up temp to a relatively cool (vague I know) temperature, just a little cool in the glass, you won't go far wrong.

Drunk when it reaches the air temp in an un-airconditioned room here, it will not show its best form.

Edited May 16, 2013 by xylophone

[churchill]

South Africa try Zonnebloem from Stellenbosch

Re spain ...No recommendations and not a lot of choice

[xylophone]

South Africa try Zonnebloem from Stellenbosch

Re spain ...No recommendations and not a lot of choice

Thanks will do churchill..........where can i find here in Thailand?

[churchill]

South Africa try Zonnebloem from Stellenbosch

Re spain ...No recommendations and not a lot of choice

Thanks will do churchill..........where can i find here in Thailand?

You got me there haven't seen it for a while ...perhaps Villa ?

[KarenBravo]

When in doubt, I always buy a bottle of Barolo.

It's always good.

[xylophone]

When in doubt, I always buy a bottle of Barolo.

It's always good.

A recommendation please KB, as would love to try more Italian wines here. Thanks.

[KarenBravo]

When in doubt, I always buy a bottle of Barolo.

It's always good.

A recommendation please KB, as would love to try more Italian wines here. Thanks.

Never had a bad Barolo by picking the prettiest label..........

[eezergood]

I feel a wine club coming on?????

[jocko]

I feel a wine club coming on?????

Ye occasionally you get bloody good info on here.

[xylophone]

Through this discussion's recommendation, I bought a bottle of 30 Mile Shiraz yesterday at Wine Connection and it was pretty good. OK, more expensive than Montclair but a different class. 445 baht isn't bad for a reasonable wine in Thailand. I'd expect to pay 5 to 6 pounds for something of equivalent quality in the UK. At least that's what i think though being somewhat wine-starved here it could be my taste buds are not working properly.

Nice to hear that something good has come from the discussions on this thread!!

I know it's little more expensive at 499 baht but please give the wine I have been keen on here a try (apart from the Chilean Bodegas Centenarius)......the Rare Vineyards Cab Sauv/Syrah a try (from Wine Connection) as it is more like an Aussie wine and is the result of some good "forward thinking" by a producer from the south of France. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised!

[eezergood]

I feel a wine club coming on?????

Ye occasionally you get bloody good info on here.

I would be willing to join for sure!

[jocko]

I feel a wine club coming on?????

Ye occasionally you get bloody good info on here.

I would be willing to join for sure!

THE GRAPEVINE.

[topt]

When in doubt, I always buy a bottle of Barolo.

It's always good.

A recommendation please KB, as would love to try more Italian wines here. Thanks.

Never had a bad Barolo by picking the prettiest label..........

And may I ask what price they come in at?

Cheap Barolo in the UK can be had around £12 if I remember correctly but that was some years ago and the good stuff was closer to £20. In Thailand when I have seen it the price is a little high for me.........especially compared to the other prices quoted in this thread.

[jackflash]

I notice that it is has become much easier to find a good red at a Thai restaurant in the last year or two.

Regarding temperature, I much prefer to drink red wine at room temperature. To me chilling red is decidedly uncivilized.

I had become accustomed to this hideous practice in LOS, but have been pleased recently to be offered a choice (cold vs room temp).

Occasionally however I still get offered ice (shudder).

[xylophone]

I feel a wine club coming on?????

Ye occasionally you get bloody good info on here.

I would be willing to join for sure!

THE GRAPEVINE.

Yes I'd be up for it as always keen to learn and impart knowledge where poss.

There have been other threads about wine but they soon "get lost" in the other threads, so is it possible to have a "section" (don't know what it is called in Forum-speak) that is always visible so that it can be referred to instantly?

[jmccarty]

Chilean Mar Sol is not bad! 790bt for a 4L box at Foodland, I prefer the SavBlanc but the Merlot is also not bad. Drink it often.