Urgent Help - Think Local Mitsu Dealer Is Trying To Sell Me Old Discs

[angryfarang]

Guys,

Can anyone help? I booked my truck in to the local Mitsubishi dealer to have new discs and pads fitted - the car is 8 years old now and still on the originals.

Anyway, they called me yesterday to say they couldn't finish the job as something was broken and they needed to order a new part.

I visited this morning to see what was "broken" and fair enough, the caliper seals were old and needed replacement...

Anyway, while I was there I looked at the "new" discs they have fitted and they don't look new to me.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm sure new discs shouldn't have any marks on them, especially score marks around them. The metal should be perfect.

Can anyone advise me? The car is still there now and I need to act fast. I don't think these discs are new, if they're not I'll go back down there and get them to put the old discs back on.

Thanks

[hansnl]

Read this, or just gave a look

Scroll down the images

It is in Dutch, but it is about the images!

http://www.skylineclub.nl/showthread.php?11226-mijn-oude-en-nieuwe-schijven-en-blokken-zoals-beloofd

[thaicbr]

It doesn't look so good. BUT maybe the mechanic used sand paper to lightly score the disc and get the preservative off the disc. Or they could have just skimmed your originals.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

[angryfarang]

Exactly - they look immaculate.

[angryfarang]

OK. I went back down and spoke to them very nicely, showing them a picture of a new disc.

They explained to me that they fitted the discs and pads new and went for a test drive. They noticed an issue with the brake's, so removed everything again to notice that the calliper piston seals were damaged.

This is how the explain the scoring on the discs. I asked them why they didn't inspect the seals or notice this when they pushed the pistons back to fit the new pads. I got a blank look.

Anyway, they showed me my old discs that they removed, they have definitely recently been used (as there is no rust on the surfaces) and also showed me the brand new box for the new discs with the Mitsubishi part number.

I smiled and laughed and said no problem and will come and pick my car up later... Maybe what they say is true, maybe they fitted re-surfaced discs to my truck. Who knows. What I do know is that I should have done the job myself and in the future I'll source parts myself just to be sure.

[WarpSpeed]

Yes, not at all surprising you got a blank look, that is just not how it's done in Thailand, too many Thai's say just fix it, in that get it working, recycled parts are not at all a concern until they're beyond dangerous and failed or otherwise, there's been a few recent notable stories about buses failing this way and crashing or killing people. They're not worried about actually doing the job correctly in most cases so in this case they seem to be and instead told you so but normally most Thai's would reject the additional work you thought should have been done up front.

Based on what I see their story is plausible, the rotors do seem to be new and barely scored but the second jpeg does seem to have a rather pronounced mark in it already close to the middle of rotor and that is a concern to investigate why that occurred in a short test drive?

Can't see a leaking or failed seal causing that..

[ktm jeff]

Im a mechanic. Those discs are new - the mark isnt realy a groove (more visable only ).It has been caused by a metalic partical (normally copper )in the "sintered" brake pads. The partical will soon wear out , then another will come into contact with the disc face -- and so on. Minor surface marks/grooves are fine and help clear surface water and dust. Hope this helps

[WarpSpeed]

Thanks Nig, there's a host of long time mechanics here too of all levels of professional and hobbyist experience.. Good to have another point of view..

Edited May 18, 2013 by WarpSpeed

[angryfarang]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I've always been one to question things. I'm not paranoid, but I am suspicious at times and around certain things. When I saw the discs I thought something wasn't right. If those discs were just put on the car new, then there shouldn't be any scuff marks on them.

It makes sense that a test drive would have marked the discs up, but it doesn't make sense that they would discover damaged calliper piston seals after the test drive and not when they refitted the brake pads, as they would have had to push the cylinders back to fit the new ones. Anyway, this is Thailand and in 8 years working with Thai engineers I haven't discovered much logic in their processes...

[John 1]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I've always been one to question things. I'm not paranoid, but I am suspicious at times and around certain things. When I saw the discs I thought something wasn't right. If those discs were just put on the car new, then there shouldn't be any scuff marks on them.

It makes sense that a test drive would have marked the discs up, but it doesn't make sense that they would discover damaged calliper piston seals after the test drive and not when they refitted the brake pads, as they would have had to push the cylinders back to fit the new ones. Anyway, this is Thailand and in 8 years working with Thai engineers I haven't discovered much logic in their processes...

Normally they will just machine the discs you have only done 120,000km so not a lot of mileage. what is the price they are charging. that dealer over Lamai side is normally ok.

[angryfarang]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I've always been one to question things. I'm not paranoid, but I am suspicious at times and around certain things. When I saw the discs I thought something wasn't right. If those discs were just put on the car new, then there shouldn't be any scuff marks on them.

It makes sense that a test drive would have marked the discs up, but it doesn't make sense that they would discover damaged calliper piston seals after the test drive and not when they refitted the brake pads, as they would have had to push the cylinders back to fit the new ones. Anyway, this is Thailand and in 8 years working with Thai engineers I haven't discovered much logic in their processes...

Normally they will just machine the discs you have only done 120,000km so not a lot of mileage. what is the price they are charging. that dealer over Lamai side is normally ok.

3,000 for a set of discs. Pretty cheap really. Threw new pads on as well.

[WarpSpeed]

Don't assume they should have noticed a bad caliper just because in compressing it, for one thing sometimes it doesn't show UNTIL a test drive is done and the piston does not release and press the pad to contact the rotor to provide even stopping as the piston was extended past the compression point prior to their installing new pads..

Secondly like I mentioned previously, Thai's, as a rule do not commonly replace parts just because YOU or anyone else may think they should, they go with the preponderance of the market thinking which is primarily Thai and most do not do ANY more then is necessary without special request and even then I've had numerous discussions about what is and isn't necessary to get the car back on the road again as the thought of preventative maintenance escapes the majority.

[ignis]

As with many things DIY then you are 100% sure, if you cannot do then go to a smaller garage, they look tell you what is needed you take back a day or 2 later and watch them do the job.....

1 thing here which is VERY different to Europe, Full dealer service history makes no difference come time to sell.......... right or wrong I buy a new truck every 3 years, I have the 1st FREE service done at the dealer, never visit the dealer again, my 1 st one 10 years ago did do everything at the dealer's at a cost... [km in 3 years is around 400,000]

[WarpSpeed]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I've always been one to question things. I'm not paranoid, but I am suspicious at times and around certain things. When I saw the discs I thought something wasn't right. If those discs were just put on the car new, then there shouldn't be any scuff marks on them.

It makes sense that a test drive would have marked the discs up, but it doesn't make sense that they would discover damaged calliper piston seals after the test drive and not when they refitted the brake pads, as they would have had to push the cylinders back to fit the new ones. Anyway, this is Thailand and in 8 years working with Thai engineers I haven't discovered much logic in their processes...

Normally they will just machine the discs you have only done 120,000km so not a lot of mileage. what is the price they are charging. that dealer over Lamai side is normally ok.

3,000 for a set of discs. Pretty cheap really. Threw new pads on as well.

At that price sounds like turned rotors, not new.. Especially at dealership rates

Edited May 19, 2013 by WarpSpeed

[John 1]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I've always been one to question things. I'm not paranoid, but I am suspicious at times and around certain things. When I saw the discs I thought something wasn't right. If those discs were just put on the car new, then there shouldn't be any scuff marks on them.

It makes sense that a test drive would have marked the discs up, but it doesn't make sense that they would discover damaged calliper piston seals after the test drive and not when they refitted the brake pads, as they would have had to push the cylinders back to fit the new ones. Anyway, this is Thailand and in 8 years working with Thai engineers I haven't discovered much logic in their processes...

Normally they will just machine the discs you have only done 120,000km so not a lot of mileage. what is the price they are charging. that dealer over Lamai side is normally ok.

3,000 for a set of discs. Pretty cheap really. Threw new pads on as well.

pads are normally about 1500bt from dealer so I would saw they skimmed or machined the discs and it can be done on the vehicles don't have to remove to skim

[transam]

At my Toyota dealer l watched them bolt a machine on the discs, still on the car . The machine refaced the discs both sides . Perhaps this was done on yours and a few deepish scores are still slightly present.

[sotsira]

In the OP's first photo you can clearly see the vent slots and the hub end of the disc.

(where the wheel is bolted to) The metal is still shiny.

If they were old or second hand (resurfaced) discs then the metal would be discoloured

with a slight brown surface rust.

Like the image below:

So in my opinion they can't have been resurfaced or second hand.

The price of 3000bt though is very cheap for 4 discs and pads, so something just

doesn't add up.

Maybe they are fully reconditioned instead of brand new, the only way to know for sure

is to compare the thickness of the discs using a pair of verniers against the thickness

of a brand new disc.

[angryfarang]

As I said, discs were 3,000 baht for the pair. I didn't say this included pads. The pads were 2,800 for the pair.

[sotsira]

Oh,well if that's the price 3000bt for the pair, then you paid 6000bt for the 4 discs,

so i would say everything seems pretty much about right.

You have nothing to worry about.

[angryfarang]

Oh,well if that's the price 3000bt for the pair, then you paid 6000bt for the 4 discs,

so i would say everything seems pretty much about right.

You have nothing to worry about.

3,000 for front discs. The rear brake's are drum.

The brake's feel great today, they're bedding in well.

[Lancashirelad]

sotsira's post #17 is spot on - though that is a deep score in pic. 2 for a new disc.

The caliper piston seals were probably not leaking before being disturbed. Now they have been pushed back into the cylinder in a position they haven't seen for years. It was then test driven, brake pressure applied and they then leak.

Be thankful the garage was happy to fit a service kit (new seals) rather than new calipers.

Can never understand why people take older motors to Main Stealers Dealers with their exorbitant workshop rates and relatively expensive OEM parts.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Lancashirelad

[angryfarang]

sotsira's post #17 is spot on - though that is a deep score in pic. 2 for a new disc.

The caliper piston seals were probably not leaking before being disturbed. Now they have been pushed back into the cylinder in a position they haven't seen for years. It was then test driven, brake pressure applied and they then leak.

Be thankful the garage was happy to fit a service kit (new seals) rather than new calipers.

Can never understand why people take older motors to Main Stealers Dealers with their exorbitant workshop rates and relatively expensive OEM parts.

The score around the disc wasn't deep at all,I couldn't even feel it with my finger when I rubbed over it.

I just hope they cleaned the brake dust off the callipers before pushing the pistons back in, don't want all that brake dust going back up inside. It didn't look like they had. Anyway, another reason for doing it yourself....

I'm based on Samui, the dealers are the only place to go really. Plus I like to keep a full dealer service history.

[John 1]

sotsira's post #17 is spot on - though that is a deep score in pic. 2 for a new disc.

The caliper piston seals were probably not leaking before being disturbed. Now they have been pushed back into the cylinder in a position they haven't seen for years. It was then test driven, brake pressure applied and they then leak.

Be thankful the garage was happy to fit a service kit (new seals) rather than new calipers.

Can never understand why people take older motors to Main Stealers Dealers with their exorbitant workshop rates and relatively expensive OEM parts.

Posts like this mean you don't understand would you prefer to put Chinese made parts on or pay more for OEM as for dealers charging more why not at least they work on a concrete floor and not dirt. Also try a mechanical shop on Samui starting with the name Dan and his price will be 50% more than a dealer

[WarpSpeed]

sotsira's post #17 is spot on - though that is a deep score in pic. 2 for a new disc.

The caliper piston seals were probably not leaking before being disturbed. Now they have been pushed back into the cylinder in a position they haven't seen for years. It was then test driven, brake pressure applied and they then leak.

Be thankful the garage was happy to fit a service kit (new seals) rather than new calipers.

Pretty much echoes my post above.. So I tend to agree..

[WarpSpeed]

In the OP's first photo you can clearly see the vent slots and the hub end of the disc.

(where the wheel is bolted to) The metal is still shiny.

If they were old or second hand (resurfaced) discs then the metal would be discoloured

with a slight brown surface rust.

Like the image below:

So in my opinion they can't have been resurfaced or second hand.

The price of 3000bt though is very cheap for 4 discs and pads, so something just

doesn't add up.

Maybe they are fully reconditioned instead of brand new, the only way to know for sure

is to compare the thickness of the discs using a pair of verniers against the thickness

of a brand new disc.

Good point on the hats looking shiny new, that one escaped me and I went with the crowd..And now with clarity from the Op on cost I revert back to my original thinking, additionally the idea of bleeding a hydraulic system here as a regular part of maintenance is non existent if you don't insist on an entire flush so there is a good possibility that has only been done enough to complete the job and not to refurbish the system as should be done.

[transam]

Having another look at the photos, of course l could be wrong and usually am , the disc does look like an old one that has been bead blasted (or similar) and then resurfaced.

[angryfarang]

In the OP's first photo you can clearly see the vent slots and the hub end of the disc.

(where the wheel is bolted to) The metal is still shiny.

If they were old or second hand (resurfaced) discs then the metal would be discoloured

with a slight brown surface rust.

Like the image below:

So in my opinion they can't have been resurfaced or second hand.

The price of 3000bt though is very cheap for 4 discs and pads, so something just

doesn't add up.

Maybe they are fully reconditioned instead of brand new, the only way to know for sure

is to compare the thickness of the discs using a pair of verniers against the thickness

of a brand new disc.

additionally the idea of bleeding a hydraulic system here as a regular part of maintenance is non existent if you don't insist on an entire flush so there is a good possibility that has only been done enough to complete the job and not to refurbish the system as should be done.

I'm going to flush the system myself, I'm just waiting for my speed bleeder bags to arrive.

[WarpSpeed]

Having another look at the photos, of course l could be wrong and usually am , the disc does look like an old one that has been bead blasted (or similar) and then resurfaced.

Hats are shiny not dull, not bead blasted at all, besides good luck finding anyone there who even knows what bead blasting is?

[WarpSpeed]

In the OP's first photo you can clearly see the vent slots and the hub end of the disc.

(where the wheel is bolted to) The metal is still shiny.

If they were old or second hand (resurfaced) discs then the metal would be discoloured

with a slight brown surface rust.

Like the image below:

So in my opinion they can't have been resurfaced or second hand.

The price of 3000bt though is very cheap for 4 discs and pads, so something just

doesn't add up.

Maybe they are fully reconditioned instead of brand new, the only way to know for sure

is to compare the thickness of the discs using a pair of verniers against the thickness

of a brand new disc.

additionally the idea of bleeding a hydraulic system here as a regular part of maintenance is non existent if you don't insist on an entire flush so there is a good possibility that has only been done enough to complete the job and not to refurbish the system as should be done.

I'm going to flush the system myself, I'm just waiting for my speed bleeder bags to arrive.

Too bad, I've designed and produced the only fully vacuum assisted, self bleeding system currently available in the world which is the only recommended way to bleed modern systems especially ABS systems. Haven't been able to get it on the market though sadly, too many people without vision. It works like no other though and even race tested and proven.

Edited May 20, 2013 by WarpSpeed

[transam]

Having another look at the photos, of course l could be wrong and usually am , the disc does look like an old one that has been bead blasted (or similar) and then resurfaced.

Hats are shiny not dull, not bead blasted at all, besides good luck finding anyone there who even knows what bead blasting is?

Take a close up look at the metal on the disc face you can see rough casting.