Woolwich Attack: ' Soldier Beheaded' By Ranting Fanatics On Busy London Street

[Ulysses G.]

Ordinary Muslims have condemned those who preach hate and ejected them from their mosques.

Some ordinary Muslims have condemmed those who preach hate, but not nearly enough of them. You are painting way too rosy of a picture as some posters are making things look worse than they are.

I try not to comment on the situation in the UK too much as I am American and do not understand everything that is going on there, but I do know that Muslims all over the world are causing big problems because they reject the cultures of places that they are living that are not Islamic and do not want to be.

[Mosha]

Canuckamuck, not sure what your last post means; but if you are referring to the witnesses to the attacks, the vast majority of those interviewed in the media, and in the background of the videos, were white.

Although there are white Muslims, it's a fair assumption that most of those people are not.

I was saying you can't tell which Muslims groups are clearly for peace, and which ones are enabling Islamist radicals, any better than I can. Due to a failure of the peaceful ones to make clear distinctions.

They need to get out on the streets in large numbers with placards condemning the radicals, Like the Luton radicals did shouting "UK go to hell." Then I'll believe they are serious.

[7by7]

Cannuckamuck,

The distinction is very simple.

Those who don't support the extremist kick them out of their mosques and publicly condemn those who commit atrocities such as this murder.

How many more time does that need to be said?

[canuckamuck]

Cannuckamuck,

The distinction is very simple.

Those who don't support the extremist kick them out of their mosques and publicly condemn those who commit atrocities such as this murder.

How many more time does that need to be said?

So it can be safely said that if their are extremists in a mosque then all of the other members of that mosque must approve of them. Because you said that the mosques that are against extremism simply throw them out and condemn them. thanks for clearing that up, I am sure it will be easier now to identify entire groups of extremists

[7by7]

Indeed.

Although you and Mosha may not realise it from 6000 miles away, the UK mosques which tolerate the extremists are very few and far between.

Edited May 27, 2013 by 7by7

[katana]

Vandals deface war memorials in London parks
Vandals have daubed the word Islam in spray paint on war memorials in Green Park and Hyde Park in London.
Police were called to the RAF Bomber Command War Memorial at 05:00 BST and found engravings on the monument covered with paint.
Vandals did the same thing at the Animals in War Memorial in Hyde Park.
ctd http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22678874

[GentlemanJim]

Cannuckamuck,

The distinction is very simple.

Those who don't support the extremist kick them out of their mosques and publicly condemn those who commit atrocities such as this murder.

How many more time does that need to be said?

Well, you are giving me a lesson in how radicalization works. When someone just keeps going on and on and on and on it certainly starts taking away my will to live, I am sure just before I get to that point I will be saying '7by7 would would you have me do oh mighty one'.

[Credo]

So, who in the Mosque decides how extreme is extreme? Do they take a vote? I've spent considerable time in the Middle East, and I have experienced anyone being thrown out.

I've been to churches where people disagreed and they walked out, but the Preacher stayed and preached to the group that did.

Is this something that you know about, or are you guessing?

[7by7]

It is not just Muslim idiots who deface war memorials.

One of Scotland's "most admired" war memorials vandalised

Anyone who does such a thing is beyond reproach.

[cmsally]

Canuckamuck,

It is you who seem incapable of making the distinction between peace lovers and terrorists!

Mainstream Muslims can, which is why the condemn the activities of the extremists and terrorists.

Mosha,

You probably don't realise this from 6000 miles away, but the vast majority of those in the UK, no matter their race, colour or creed, did not witness this appalling crime.

Why didn't those who did witness it, most of whom were not Muslims, make citizens arrests? Why, instead, did some of them record the event and the murderers ranting; recordings which they then sold to the media!

You know what I meant. the hate mongering clerics. I think you are intentionally being obtuse.

Who the ---- is going to make a citizens arrest when the guy is carrying a huge meat cleaver !!

This thread goes from the sublime to the ridiculous.

The fact that hoards of people are standing around watching doesn't surprise me at all as the g.p. (general public) gets weirder as the years go on.

They often have a hard time extracting fact from fiction "bless their little hearts".

Meanwhile back amongst the movers and shakers. at religion.inc (nice little earner!)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/8050156/Mohammed-Abdul-Azizs-advice-on-Islam-has-cost-Britain-quite-enough.html

Hindsight is a wonderful thing!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/andrew-gilligan/7908262/Hizb-ut-Tahrir-is-not-a-gateway-to-terrorism-claims-Whitehall-report.html

[mrtoad]

The great defender strikes again.

[Scott]

Closed for Cleanup

re-opened. Keep it civil.

[Mosha]

BBC reporting a 10th arrest on suspicion of conspiracy to murder.

[thaicbr]

Indeed.

 

Although you and Mosha may not realise it from 6000 miles away, the UK mosques which tolerate the extremists are very few and far between.

So there ARE mosques that still allow these extremists to speak. Thanks for clearing that up. Bit different than the MANY times you stated that they have been 'kicked' out of mosques.

This is exactly what many have been saying. The extremists have roots in the general Muslim populace. Maybe they don't agree with them but they also do very little to curb them.

Ps: according to wiki. The oldest UK mosque is in Liverpool not Woking.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

[uptheos]

Cannuckamuck,

The distinction is very simple.

Those who don't support the extremist kick them out of their mosques and publicly condemn those who commit atrocities such as this murder.

How many more time does that need to be said?

No more, the needle is stuck and you need another record.

[Paangjang]

Why is this man allowed to stay in the country? (notice who is behind him)

He has Pakistani roots, just drop him off there.....preferably from a great height.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2330689/Is-country-mad-Why-Anjem-Choudary-poisonous-teachings-influenced-Woolwich-killers-free-draw-benefits-tour-BBC-studios-spouting-murderous-hatred-Britain.html

Love this quote: The ‘Sheik’ leads by example. Now separated from his wife and three children, for years he has received more than £1,700 a month in benefits — which he once referred to as ‘Jihad seekers allowance’.

[Mosha]

Why is this man allowed to stay in the country? (notice who is behind him)

He has Pakistani roots, just drop him off there.....preferably from a great height.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2330689/Is-country-mad-Why-Anjem-Choudary-poisonous-teachings-influenced-Woolwich-killers-free-draw-benefits-tour-BBC-studios-spouting-murderous-hatred-Britain.html

Love this quote: The ‘Sheik’ leads by example. Now separated from his wife and three children, for years he has received more than £1,700 a month in benefits — which he once referred to as ‘Jihad seekers allowance’.

£1,700 a month? As a UK tax payer (just) I find that offensive

[F430murci]

BBC reporting a 10th arrest on suspicion of conspiracy to murder.

Did they pop a cell or just rounding up undesirables?

[Mosha]

BBC reporting a 10th arrest on suspicion of conspiracy to murder.

Did they pop a cell or just rounding up undesirables?

From what they said it sounds like they want to discover if they had accomplices, or worked alone. Also if they were influenced by any one.I'd say Choudary is a good one to ask. Some are still in custody, some out on bail. 2 women released without charge.

[GentlemanJim]

Indeed.

Although you and Mosha may not realise it from 6000 miles away, the UK mosques which tolerate the extremists are very few and far between.

7by7

A friendly word of advice. Stop trying to sound clever and pass off your totally unqualified statements to us.

Two days ago, some one was telling you what the Quaran said and you were replying 'no it doesn't say that', later on you admitted you have never read the Quaran. Now you are trying to sound as if you are speaking with some authority in saying "Although you and Mosha may not realise it from 6000 miles away, the UK mosques which tolerate the extremists are very few and far between.". That is pure fabrication on your part.

Now from 6000 miles away I CAN tell you this

The Hijacking of British Islam

In October 2007, Policy Exchange published a report on the Muslim community in the UK,

uncovering the extent of extremism within mainstream mosques and Muslim institutions. The report entitled The Hijacking of British

Islam: How extremist literature is subverting mosques in the UK was described as "a year long investigation carried out by Policy Exchange

into the character of the literature currently available in mainstream sites of Islamic religious instruction in the UK."[10] According

to the report, four Muslim research teams visited nearly 100 Islamic sites in the UK "to determine the extent to which literature inculcating Muslim

separatism and hatred of nonbelievers was accessible in those institutions — both in terms of being openly available and also being

obtainable 'under the counter'." The researchers claimed to have found offensive material at around a quarter of the sites visited and this became the

report's most publicised claim in the media.

Policy Exchange is a British conservative thin tank based in London. The Daily Telegraph has described it as "the largest, but also

the most influential think tank on the right"

Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Exchange

Now forgive me, but I will take the results of a 12 month study carried out by a Government think tank over you sat at your desk making it up as you go along. 25% of Mosques is not 'few and far between'.

That said, what is infuriating is that the Government have not done anything overtly about putting a stop to this trend.

Edited May 28, 2013 by GentlemanJim

[transam]

Canuckamuck,

It is you who seem incapable of making the distinction between peace lovers and terrorists!

Mainstream Muslims can, which is why the condemn the activities of the extremists and terrorists.

Mosha,

You probably don't realise this from 6000 miles away, but the vast majority of those in the UK, no matter their race, colour or creed, did not witness this appalling crime.

Why didn't those who did witness it, most of whom were not Muslims, make citizens arrests? Why, instead, did some of them record the event and the murderers ranting; recordings which they then sold to the media!

Cos the sensible don't want a meat cleaver between the eyes, did YOU not notice a cop used a gun to prevent it happening to him. ...................

[jbrain]

Indeed.

Although you and Mosha may not realise it from 6000 miles away, the UK mosques which tolerate the extremists are very few and far between.

7by7

A friendly word of advice. Stop trying to sound clever and pass off your totally unqualified statements to us.

Two days ago, some one was telling you what the Quaran said and you were replying 'no it doesn't say that', later on you admitted you have never read the Quaran. Now you are trying to sound as if you are speaking with some authority in saying "Although you and Mosha may not realise it from 6000 miles away, the UK mosques which tolerate the extremists are very few and far between.". That is pure fabrication on your part.

Now from 6000 miles away I CAN tell you this

>The Hijacking of British Islam

In October 2007, Policy Exchange published a report on the Muslim community in the UK,

uncovering the extent of extremism within mainstream mosques and Muslim institutions. The report entitled The Hijacking of British

Islam: How extremist literature is subverting mosques in the UK was described as "a year long investigation carried out by Policy Exchange

into the character of the literature currently available in mainstream sites of Islamic religious instruction in the UK."[10] According

to the report, four Muslim research teams visited nearly 100 Islamic sites in the UK "to determine the extent to which literature inculcating Muslim

separatism and hatred of nonbelievers was accessible in those institutions — both in terms of being openly available and also being

obtainable 'under the counter'." The researchers claimed to have found offensive material at around a quarter of the sites visited and this became the

report's most publicised claim in the media.

Policy Exchange is a British conservative thin tank based in London. The Daily Telegraph has described it as "the largest, but also

the most influential think tank on the right"

Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Exchange

Now forgive me, but I will take the results of a 12 month study carried out by a Government think tank over you sat at your desk making it up as you go along. 25% of Mosques is not 'few and far between'.

That said, what is infuriating is that the Government have not done anything overtly about putting a stop to this trend.

I have earlier in another topic agreed with 7by7 that he is right that the majority of muslim aren't extremists, of the muslims in the world that is. I saw a post somewhere else that only like 2% ( of all muslims worldwide) falls in this category, which of course still accounts for a massive number.

The issue is that the majority of those extremists don't live in their muslim countries, but in fact are spread over the world in countries that welcomed them with benefits, and which translates in a big percentage of muslims living abroad falling in that category.

I think the reports Gentleman Jim linked to don't lie about that.

[transam]

Indeed.

Although you and Mosha may not realise it from 6000 miles away, the UK mosques which tolerate the extremists are very few and far between.

7by7

A friendly word of advice. Stop trying to sound clever and pass off your totally unqualified statements to us.

Two days ago, some one was telling you what the Quaran said and you were replying 'no it doesn't say that', later on you admitted you have never read the Quaran. Now you are trying to sound as if you are speaking with some authority in saying "Although you and Mosha may not realise it from 6000 miles away, the UK mosques which tolerate the extremists are very few and far between.". That is pure fabrication on your part.

Now from 6000 miles away I CAN tell you this

>The Hijacking of British Islam

In October 2007, Policy Exchange published a report on the Muslim community in the UK,

uncovering the extent of extremism within mainstream mosques and Muslim institutions. The report entitled The Hijacking of British

Islam: How extremist literature is subverting mosques in the UK was described as "a year long investigation carried out by Policy Exchange

into the character of the literature currently available in mainstream sites of Islamic religious instruction in the UK."[10] According

to the report, four Muslim research teams visited nearly 100 Islamic sites in the UK "to determine the extent to which literature inculcating Muslim

separatism and hatred of nonbelievers was accessible in those institutions — both in terms of being openly available and also being

obtainable 'under the counter'." The researchers claimed to have found offensive material at around a quarter of the sites visited and this became the

report's most publicised claim in the media.

Policy Exchange is a British conservative thin tank based in London. The Daily Telegraph has described it as "the largest, but also

the most influential think tank on the right"

Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_Exchange

Now forgive me, but I will take the results of a 12 month study carried out by a Government think tank over you sat at your desk making it up as you go along. 25% of Mosques is not 'few and far between'.

That said, what is infuriating is that the Government have not done anything overtly about putting a stop to this trend.

and,.................... ''The Blind Will Never See''..................... (Transam 2013)

[GentlemanJim]

Canuckamuck,

It is you who seem incapable of making the distinction between peace lovers and terrorists!

Mainstream Muslims can, which is why the condemn the activities of the extremists and terrorists.

Mosha,

You probably don't realise this from 6000 miles away, but the vast majority of those in the UK, no matter their race, colour or creed, did not witness this appalling crime.

Why didn't those who did witness it, most of whom were not Muslims, make citizens arrests? Why, instead, did some of them record the event and the murderers ranting; recordings which they then sold to the media!

Cos the sensible don't want a meat cleaver between the eyes, did YOU not notice a cop used a gun to prevent it happening to him. ...................

*edited out*

And there you go. Why do you think there are only extreme options to combat a problem? The message of Tommy Robinson is very clear and far from extreme. If they end up with some Millwall supporters using it as an excuse to fight with Asians then that may always happen. Because of the extreme in-balance in the way different groups are being treated then ultimately if nothing is done many people do not know how to express themselves other than protest and the way emotions are running that is likely to turn ugly.

One problem is that people have been 'silent' too long and any trust placed in the successive Governments to do the right thing has been misplaced. If something is not done, then this 'small' group will swell to uncontrollable sizes.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Scott

[samran]

Was yesterdays rally violent??

Dunno if Gandhi or Martin Luther King would approve of the behaviour.

[Ulysses G.]

I would not be so sure about that. Gandhi was not above using force when necessary.

“A soldier who disobeys an order to fire breaks that oath which he has taken and renders himself guilty of criminal disobedience. I cannot ask officials and soldiers to disobey; for when I am in power I shall in all likelihood make use of those same officials, and those same soldiers. If I taught them to disobey I should be afraid that they might do the same when I am in power.” - Mahatma Gandhi

Edited May 28, 2013 by Ulysses G.

[samran]

I would not be so sure about that.

“A soldier who disobeys an order to fire breaks that oath which he has taken and renders himself guilty of criminal disobedience. I cannot ask officials and soldiers to disobey; for when I am in power I shall in all likelihood make use of those same officials, and those same soldiers. If I taught them to disobey I should be afraid that they might do the same when I am in power.” - Mahatma Gandhi

Unless you are implying that those Millwall supporters are actually EDL stormtroopers, then I have to disagree.

Was talking about the principals of non-violent protest. But, quote at will. I'm sure there is also a statistic or two you'll be able to find to also prove your point.

[Ulysses G.]

The point is that Gandhi was not above using force when necessary.

[samran]

The point is that Gandhi was not above using force when necessary.

I'm not sure you'd define yesterday as 'necessary'.

Edited May 28, 2013 by samran

[Mosha]

Was yesterdays rally violent??

Dunno if Gandhi or Martin Luther King would approve of the behaviour.

Seems like both sides were just as bad as the other.

http://www.bexleytimes.co.uk/news/edl_and_anti_fascist_protesters_clash_in_whitehall_1_2211387

Edited May 28, 2013 by Mosha