Woolwich Attack: ' Soldier Beheaded' By Ranting Fanatics On Busy London Street

[OzMick]

Have you read the Bible? There's lots of nasty bits in there too.

Does this mean that Christians are dedicated to killing unbelievers?

Of course it doesn't!

Taking bits out of context to support your argument only shows your desperation.

You make a good point, unwittingly. Both books are full of archaic concepts, exhortations to violence and are often self-contradictory. The problem comes when people fail to recognise this and delude themselves that these are the unalterable and infallible expressions of an all-powerful mythical being, and use this to justify carring out acts which any moral code should find repulsive.

Not unwittingly.

The majority of Muslims do not, as you say,"delude themselves that these are the unalterable and infallible expressions of an all-powerful mythical being,, and use this to justify carring out acts which any moral code should find repulsive." any more than the majority of Christians do.

But there are fanatics in both religions who do.

List of Christian Terrorism for example.

But the majority of muslims DO "delude themselves that these are the unalterable and infallible expressions of an all-powerful mythical being...." as do many christians. Without that, the 2nd part of the statement does not follow.

If the teaching of religion to vulnerable children was stopped, religion would wither, die and disappear within a few generations, and the insane would have to find some other reason to commit atrocities.

[samran]

Have you read the Bible? There's lots of nasty bits in there too.

Does this mean that Christians are dedicated to killing unbelievers?

Of course it doesn't!

Taking bits out of context to support your argument only shows your desperation.

You make a good point, unwittingly. Both books are full of archaic concepts, exhortations to violence and are often self-contradictory. The problem comes when people fail to recognise this and delude themselves that these are the unalterable and infallible expressions of an all-powerful mythical being, and use this to justify carring out acts which any moral code should find repulsive.

Not unwittingly.

The majority of Muslims do not, as you say,"delude themselves that these are the unalterable and infallible expressions of an all-powerful mythical being,, and use this to justify carring out acts which any moral code should find repulsive." any more than the majority of Christians do.

But there are fanatics in both religions who do.

List of Christian Terrorism for example.

But the majority of muslims DO "delude themselves that these are the unalterable and infallible expressions of an all-powerful mythical being...." as do many christians. Without that, the 2nd part of the statement does not follow.

If the teaching of religion to vulnerable children was stopped, religion would wither, die and disappear within a few generations, and the insane would have to find some other reason to commit atrocities.

...but they still would. And that is the issue for me.

[Scott]

Stick to the topic of THIS thread.

[canuckamuck]

Well it is certainly true that western governments are responding to radical Islam the same way people treat an ill-natured uncle at a family reunion.

Just talk softly, let him have the nice chair, don't play the music too loud, and please don't bring up any topics that might set him off.

[7by7]

Indeed.

Although you and Mosha may not realise it from 6000 miles away, the UK mosques which tolerate the extremists are very few and far between.

So there ARE mosques that still allow these extremists to speak. Thanks for clearing that up. Bit different than the MANY times you stated that they have been 'kicked' out of mosques.

This is exactly what many have been saying. The extremists have roots in the general Muslim populace. Maybe they don't agree with them but they also do very little to curb them.

Ps: according to wiki. The oldest UK mosque is in Liverpool not Woking.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

They have been kicked out of mosques, most mosques. But I have never said that they have been kicked out of all mosques.

People, criticise me, disagree with me, argue with me; but base your criticism, disagreement and arguments on what I have actually written; not on what you think I have written.

The oldest purpose built mosque in the UK is in Woking, but a mosque did open in Liverpool first; I stand corrected.

[thaicbr]

Indeed.

 

Although you and Mosha may not realise it from 6000 miles away, the UK mosques which tolerate the extremists are very few and far between.

So there ARE mosques that still allow these extremists to speak. Thanks for clearing that up. Bit different than the MANY times you stated that they have been 'kicked' out of mosques.

This is exactly what many have been saying. The extremists have roots in the general Muslim populace. Maybe they don't agree with them but they also do very little to curb them.

Ps: according to wiki. The oldest UK mosque is in Liverpool not Woking.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

They have been kicked out of mosques, most mosques. But I have never said that they have been kicked out of all mosques.

 

People, criticise me, disagree with me, argue with me; but base your criticism, disagreement and arguments on what I have actually written; not on what you think I have written.

 

The oldest purpose built mosque in the UK is in Woking, but a mosque did open in Liverpool first; I stand corrected.

That's true but you certainly implied it. Many times

Also where do you get this information that the extremists and extremist material have been kicked out of most mosques?

Gut feeling? A study? Because your Muslim neighbor told you?

I really would like to know!

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

[thaicbr]

Also 7/7. Just looking at info on the oldest purpose built mosque. Commissioned by a Jewish gent in 1889. How things change.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

[7by7]

I never implied it; that you inferred it is your problem, not mine.

I get my information from, among other sources, media reports, the public statements of Muslims in the media and conversations with Muslim friends, acquaintances and work colleagues.

Where do you, and all the others who live 6000 miles away, get your information from?

[transam]

I never implied it; that you inferred it is your problem, not mine.

I get my information from, among other sources, media reports, the public statements of Muslims in the media and conversations with Muslim friends, acquaintances and work colleagues.

Where do you, and all the others who live 6000 miles away, get your information from?

Why do you bring the 6000 mile thing up all the time ? Where are you ?

Edited May 28, 2013 by transam

[SinglePot]

I've read every post on this thread.

2 out of control thugs and 1 British soldier were the subject of the original post.

The thread has weaved some knotty problems.

As for statistics and political correctness, I reckon the majority of non-Muslim British people would be quite happy if all Muslims in the UK were to re-patriate to countries where Islam ideology rules.

No doubt somebody will challenge this on the basis of where is the evidence and criticise it for being racist.

Islam is an ideology, as one poster has already pointed out, not a race

Check out page 5 of today's Bangkok Post if you can for an insight into one aspect of Islam ideology.

[samran]

I've read every post on this thread.

2 out of control thugs and 1 British soldier were the subject of the original post.

The thread has weaved some knotty problems.

As for statistics and political correctness, I reckon the majority of non-Muslim British people would be quite happy if all Muslims in the UK were to re-patriate to countries where Islam ideology rules.

No doubt somebody will challenge this on the basis of where is the evidence and criticise it for being racist.

Islam is an ideology, as one poster has already pointed out, not a race

Check out page 5 of today's Bangkok Post if you can for an insight into one aspect of Islam ideology.

What you describe is otherwise known as ethnic cleansing. If you are happy for the UK to be party to that and the support for it exists to the extent you say, then run for parliament on that platform and see how far that gets you.

Nothing better that a secret ballot for people to express their real feelings.

My view is you'd lose by a mile.

Edited May 28, 2013 by samran

[Ace of Pop]

I've read every post on this thread.

2 out of control thugs and 1 British soldier were the subject of the original post.

The thread has weaved some knotty problems.

As for statistics and political correctness, I reckon the majority of non-Muslim British people would be quite happy if all Muslims in the UK were to re-patriate to countries where Islam ideology rules.

No doubt somebody will challenge this on the basis of where is the evidence and criticise it for being racist.

Islam is an ideology, as one poster has already pointed out, not a race

Check out page 5 of today's Bangkok Post if you can for an insight into one aspect of Islam ideology.

What you describe is otherwise known as ethnic cleansing. If you are happy for the UK to be party to that and the support for it exists to the extent you say, then run for parliament on that platform and see how far that gets you.

Nothing better that a secret ballot for people to express their real feelings.

My view is you'd lose by a mile.

Natural he would Loose, silly point. Englands overun .If only Ethnic White Brits were balloted hed win.

[samran]

I've read every post on this thread.

2 out of control thugs and 1 British soldier were the subject of the original post.

The thread has weaved some knotty problems.

As for statistics and political correctness, I reckon the majority of non-Muslim British people would be quite happy if all Muslims in the UK were to re-patriate to countries where Islam ideology rules.

No doubt somebody will challenge this on the basis of where is the evidence and criticise it for being racist.

Islam is an ideology, as one poster has already pointed out, not a race

Check out page 5 of today's Bangkok Post if you can for an insight into one aspect of Islam ideology.

What you describe is otherwise known as ethnic cleansing. If you are happy for the UK to be party to that and the support for it exists to the extent you say, then run for parliament on that platform and see how far that gets you.

Nothing better that a secret ballot for people to express their real feelings.

My view is you'd lose by a mile.

Natural he would Loose, silly point. Englands overun .If only Ethnic White Brits were balloted hed win.

What you are describing is Apartheid, but lets put that aside for a second.

You saying that Ethnic white Brits are a minority? Funny. Are you writing your posts from an isolated log cabin in Idaho by any chance?

Keep digging. Enjoying reading the conspiracy theorists.

Edited May 28, 2013 by samran

[transam]

Nobody wants ethnic cleansing, well perhaps some. What the UK wants is a particular religion to get it's house in order and respect THEIR decision to sail off to a foreign Christian country and integrate, same as most of us do in LOS. I would go so far as to say the extremists in the UK are cowards, want a free country to take care of them cos they can't be free where they come from. This fact is what angers UK folk. The kettle has nearly boiled.

[samran]

Nobody wants ethnic cleansing, well perhaps some. What the UK wants is a particular religion to get it's house in order and respect THEIR decision to sail off to a foreign Christian country and integrate, same as most of us do in LOS. I would go so far as to say the extremists in the UK are cowards, want a free country to take care of them cos they can't be free where they come from. This fact is what angers UK folk. The kettle has nearly boiled.

yeah, but you are proposing that it be run instead according to the dicat of a bunch of teapots.

[rgs2001uk]

I've read every post on this thread.

2 out of control thugs and 1 British soldier were the subject of the original post.

The thread has weaved some knotty problems.

As for statistics and political correctness, I reckon the majority of non-Muslim British people would be quite happy if all Muslims in the UK were to re-patriate to countries where Islam ideology rules.

No doubt somebody will challenge this on the basis of where is the evidence and criticise it for being racist.

Islam is an ideology, as one poster has already pointed out, not a race

Check out page 5 of today's Bangkok Post if you can for an insight into one aspect of Islam ideology.

What you describe is otherwise known as ethnic cleansing. If you are happy for the UK to be party to that and the support for it exists to the extent you say, then run for parliament on that platform and see how far that gets you.

Nothing better that a secret ballot for people to express their real feelings.

My view is you'd lose by a mile.

I stand to be corrected, but if I recall correctly Islam was probably the first religion to carry out religious cleansing, a quick look at the history of Saudi Arabia will reveal all, talking of the religion of peace and tolerance, can anyone point me in the direction of a church in Riyadh, or a Hindu temple in say Jeddah.

We only need to look at what takes place in Pakistan and Bangladesh to see just how tolerant the followers of this religion are.

Now onto the arab spring and we see what the salafists are up to in Libya and Egypt, not forgetting the treatment of Christians in Iraq.

Maybe these Muslim countries have it correct, oil and water dont mix.

[GentlemanJim]

I never implied it; that you inferred it is your problem, not mine.

I get my information from, among other sources, media reports, the public statements of Muslims in the media and conversations with Muslim friends, acquaintances and work colleagues.

Where do you, and all the others who live 6000 miles away, get your information from?

Then I refer you to my post number 1084!

By the way. what has 6000 miles away got to do with it? If you believe we are not capable of speaking about something from 6000 miles away then what the hell do you think you're doing on a forum about Thailand?

[samran]

I've read every post on this thread.

2 out of control thugs and 1 British soldier were the subject of the original post.

The thread has weaved some knotty problems.

As for statistics and political correctness, I reckon the majority of non-Muslim British people would be quite happy if all Muslims in the UK were to re-patriate to countries where Islam ideology rules.

No doubt somebody will challenge this on the basis of where is the evidence and criticise it for being racist.

Islam is an ideology, as one poster has already pointed out, not a race

Check out page 5 of today's Bangkok Post if you can for an insight into one aspect of Islam ideology.

What you describe is otherwise known as ethnic cleansing. If you are happy for the UK to be party to that and the support for it exists to the extent you say, then run for parliament on that platform and see how far that gets you.

Nothing better that a secret ballot for people to express their real feelings.

My view is you'd lose by a mile.

I stand to be corrected, but if I recall correctly Islam was probably the first religion to carry out religious cleansing, a quick look at the history of Saudi Arabia will reveal all, talking of the religion of peace and tolerance, can anyone point me in the direction of a church in Riyadh, or a Hindu temple in say Jeddah.

We only need to look at what takes place in Pakistan and Bangladesh to see just how tolerant the followers of this religion are.

Now onto the arab spring and we see what the salafists are up to in Libya and Egypt, not forgetting the treatment of Christians in Iraq.

Maybe these Muslim countries have it correct, oil and water dont mix.

But you are all happy as heck to live in Thailand.

The anti-immigrant immigrants strike again.

[transam]

I never implied it; that you inferred it is your problem, not mine.

I get my information from, among other sources, media reports, the public statements of Muslims in the media and conversations with Muslim friends, acquaintances and work colleagues.

Where do you, and all the others who live 6000 miles away, get your information from?

Then I refer you to my post number 1084!

By the way. what has 6000 miles away got to do with it? If you believe we are not capable of speaking about something from 6000 miles away then what the hell do you think you're doing on a forum about Thailand?

AND, 7 do you some how think we, perhaps in LOS, never worked or held a gun to make the UK what it is ? You think we cannot talk or have an opinion regarding the country we made cos we might be old or something. Gawd I digress.

[rgs2001uk]

I've read every post on this thread.

2 out of control thugs and 1 British soldier were the subject of the original post.

The thread has weaved some knotty problems.

As for statistics and political correctness, I reckon the majority of non-Muslim British people would be quite happy if all Muslims in the UK were to re-patriate to countries where Islam ideology rules.

No doubt somebody will challenge this on the basis of where is the evidence and criticise it for being racist.

Islam is an ideology, as one poster has already pointed out, not a race

Check out page 5 of today's Bangkok Post if you can for an insight into one aspect of Islam ideology.

What you describe is otherwise known as ethnic cleansing. If you are happy for the UK to be party to that and the support for it exists to the extent you say, then run for parliament on that platform and see how far that gets you.

Nothing better that a secret ballot for people to express their real feelings.

My view is you'd lose by a mile.

I stand to be corrected, but if I recall correctly Islam was probably the first religion to carry out religious cleansing, a quick look at the history of Saudi Arabia will reveal all, talking of the religion of peace and tolerance, can anyone point me in the direction of a church in Riyadh, or a Hindu temple in say Jeddah.

We only need to look at what takes place in Pakistan and Bangladesh to see just how tolerant the followers of this religion are.

Now onto the arab spring and we see what the salafists are up to in Libya and Egypt, not forgetting the treatment of Christians in Iraq.

Maybe these Muslim countries have it correct, oil and water dont mix.

But you are all happy as heck to live in Thailand.

The anti-immigrant immigrants strike again.

Nice side step of the points raised above, come on Samran you are better than that.

But you are all happy as heck to live in Thailand.

My wife and I are in Thailand for the time being because for now it suits us, I can assure you she aint as happy as heck to be here.

The anti-immigrant immigrants strike again.

Dont know if you are referring to me, but more than happy to answer, please point to any post where I have stated I am anti immigrant.

I classify myself as nothing more than a guest, immigration I believe refer to me as an alien, others refer to me as farang, I certainly dont consider myself an immigrant.

[SinglePot]

I've read every post on this thread.

2 out of control thugs and 1 British soldier were the subject of the original post.

The thread has weaved some knotty problems.

As for statistics and political correctness, I reckon the majority of non-Muslim British people would be quite happy if all Muslims in the UK were to re-patriate to countries where Islam ideology rules.

No doubt somebody will challenge this on the basis of where is the evidence and criticise it for being racist.

Islam is an ideology, as one poster has already pointed out, not a race

Check out page 5 of today's Bangkok Post if you can for an insight into one aspect of Islam ideology.

What you describe is otherwise known as ethnic cleansing. If you are happy for the UK to be party to that and the support for it exists to the extent you say, then run for parliament on that platform and see how far that gets you.

Nothing better that a secret ballot for people to express their real feelings.

My view is you'd lose by a mile.

I stand to be corrected, but if I recall correctly Islam was probably the first religion to carry out religious cleansing, a quick look at the history of Saudi Arabia will reveal all, talking of the religion of peace and tolerance, can anyone point me in the direction of a church in Riyadh, or a Hindu temple in say Jeddah.

We only need to look at what takes place in Pakistan and Bangladesh to see just how tolerant the followers of this religion are.

Now onto the arab spring and we see what the salafists are up to in Libya and Egypt, not forgetting the treatment of Christians in Iraq.

Maybe these Muslim countries have it correct, oil and water dont mix.

But you are all happy as heck to live in Thailand.

The anti-immigrant immigrants strike again.

I'm happy in Thailand because it's Buddhist.

Mostly.

Get the drift?

[thaicbr]

I never implied it; that you inferred it is your problem, not mine.

 

I get my information from, among other sources, media reports, the public statements of Muslims in the media and conversations with Muslim friends, acquaintances and work colleagues.

 

Where do you, and all the others who live 6000 miles away, get your information from?

I actually saw the Hook do a speech on the streets of London about 12 years ago. Have you ever seen these extremists up close?

I also had acquaintances who are Muslim. They did not approve totally of what was said but didn't disapprove. They were firmly on the fence.

It doesn't matter where we live. It's still our country just as much as any one else's. And that includes Muslims who are willing to integrate as many do and have done.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE Q6

[Scott]

Meanwhile back on topic......

(some posts deleted, a lot should have been)

[7by7]

I never implied it; that you inferred it is your problem, not mine.

I get my information from, among other sources, media reports, the public statements of Muslims in the media and conversations with Muslim friends, acquaintances and work colleagues.

Where do you, and all the others who live 6000 miles away, get your information from?

Then I refer you to my post number 1084!

By the way. what has 6000 miles away got to do with it? If you believe we are not capable of speaking about something from 6000 miles away then what the hell do you think you're doing on a forum about Thailand?

AND, 7 do you some how think we, perhaps in LOS, never worked or held a gun to make the UK what it is ? You think we cannot talk or have an opinion regarding the country we made cos we might be old or something. Gawd I digress.

The 6000 miles point is relevant because those who live in Thailand mainly get their view of what is happening on the streets of the UK from the media.

Of course the media are going to show radical Muslims demonstrating; it's news.

They are not going to show ordinary Muslims peacefully going about their day to day lives alongside everyone else in the UK.; it's not news, it doesn't make for good pictures on the TV or headlines in the papers.

I live in the UK, I travel to all parts of the UK for my work. I see how all races, creeds etc. for the most part mix very happily in tolerance and acceptance.

There are nutters and extremists, unfortunately. But as I said earlier, the Muslim extremists no more represent the views of the majority of Muslims than the EDL or BNP represent the views of the majority of non Muslims in the UK.

Transam, I again remind you that Muslims soldiers fought and died for this country on the Western Front in WW1, in North Africa and Europe in WW2, in many other theatres since. They are still fighting and dying for us today in Afghanistan.

You claim to be an ex serviceman; why do you dismiss the sacrifice of your brothers in arms so easily?

When I buy a poppy, it is in remembrance of all those who died defending our freedom. I don't care about their colour or religion.

Holding an opinion is one thing, I respect your right to hold it and express it; that's one of those freedoms so many, including Muslims soldiers, died to defend.

Why do you not afford me the same?

Edited May 28, 2013 by 7by7

[transam]

Sorry, but you miss the points of many here. You don't even know where I/we are sitting right now.

PS. I never said I was an ex service man.

[Paangjang]

Well it is certainly true that western governments are responding to radical Islam the same way people treat an ill-natured uncle at a family reunion.

Just talk softly, let him have the nice chair, don't play the music too loud, and please don't bring up any topics that might set him off.

Seems to be how i get treated at family events, although im not an uncle to anyone...

[Paangjang]

Nobody wants ethnic cleansing, well perhaps some. What the UK wants is a particular religion to get it's house in order and respect THEIR decision to sail off to a foreign Christian country and integrate, same as most of us do in LOS. I would go so far as to say the extremists in the UK are cowards, want a free country to take care of them cos they can't be free where they come from. This fact is what angers UK folk. The kettle has nearly boiled.

Well said, particulalry the second sentance. Think that about sums it up.

[GentlemanJim]

The 6000 miles point is relevant because those who live in Thailand mainly get their view of what is happening on the streets of the UK from the media.

Of course the media are going to show radical Muslims demonstrating; it's news.

They are not going to show ordinary Muslims peacefully going about their day to day lives alongside everyone else in the UK.; it's not news, it doesn't make for good pictures on the TV or headlines in the papers.

I live in the UK, I travel to all parts of the UK for my work. I see how all races, creeds etc. for the most part mix very happily in tolerance and acceptance.

There are nutters and extremists, unfortunately. But as I said earlier, the Muslim extremists no more represent the views of the majority of Muslims than the EDL or BNP represent the views of the majority of non Muslims in the UK.

Transam, I again remind you that Muslims soldiers fought and died for this country on the Western Front in WW1, in North Africa and Europe in WW2, in many other theatres since. They are still fighting and dying for us today in Afghanistan.

You claim to be an ex serviceman; why do you dismiss the sacrifice of your brothers in arms so easily?

When I buy a poppy, it is in remembrance of all those who died defending our freedom. I don't care about their colour or religion.

Holding an opinion is one thing, I respect your right to hold it and express it; that's one of those freedoms so many, including Muslims soldiers, died to defend.

Why do you not afford me the same?

So you seem to think we are all Sun readers with a total inability to be selective about our source for current affairs and so totally stupid we are unable to consider what is biased reporting or accurate. Your comments are doing you no favours. Confucius he say 'when you dig a big hole maybe it's time to consider not digging any more'.

I refer again to my reply to you in post 1084. You are clearly no where near as well informed as you think you are and your 'travels' around the UK are not furnishing you with anything that resembles accurate information.

Applying your standard it seems clear that the only information you can get concerning Thailand would be from newspapers and media, and further applying your standard that leaves you ill-equipped to comment further on anything Thai related. Me and most of my fellow members on here are qualified to comment as we travel around the country speaking to friends and colleagues ............according to your standard.

Now most everything you say can be put down to emotion, misunderstanding and I see nothing malicious in it...apart from this little gem:-

You claim to be an ex serviceman; why do you dismiss the sacrifice of your brothers in arms so easily?

That is a typical throw away line from someone who has never stood in the line of danger for his country with the Military, and if you said it in your average British Legion club I would hope someone would slap you.

So to conclude, how about you drop the schoolboy arguments.

The good thing is that the British Home Secretary Teresa May does not seem to be as Laissez- faire about this issue as you

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22671619

Thousands of people are potentially at risk of being radicalised in the UK, Home Secretary Theresa May has said.

I guess they all face radicalization in all of these Mosques you tell us they are being thrown out of, or the ones that are so 'few and far between'

SCOTT

A big thank you to you and the rest of the Mods for your patience and tolerance in allowing this extremely important issue to be debated to it's full extent. This was never going to be an easy thread to moderate considering the emotion it was always going to precipitate.

[Mosha]

Warder taken hostage. beaten and stabbed after imam asks them to pray for Lee.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2331919/Jailed-Islamic-extremists-stabbed-battered-warder-hostage-prison-imam-asked-pray-murdered-soldier-Lee-Rigby.html

[GentlemanJim]

Warder taken hostage. beaten and stabbed after imam asks them to pray for Lee.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2331919/Jailed-Islamic-extremists-stabbed-battered-warder-hostage-prison-imam-asked-pray-murdered-soldier-Lee-Rigby.html

Shocking news! I truly hope they all have their Qurans taken away and the Imam is stopped from visiting with no communal prayer time at all. This needs stamping out.