Is Chiang Mai Losing Its Charm?

[thebear]

In the 7 years or so that I have kept home in CM I have noticed a particular decline in the vitality of the city centre, perhaps more specifically a drop in the better heeled/family type visitors that used to be in abundance.

Despite more flights/cheaper fares there seems to have been litte effect on new/better entertainment/eating establishments. Perhaps victims of the early closing social order campaign, but in my opinion even Loi Kroh road certainly looks gloomy these days.

Is CM getting more visitors but lower per tourist spend revenues and thus lower incomes into the local economy? Is it because it's Taksin's home town people (particularly Thai's), are sceptical of investing? Is it because CM is noticeably spreading out further from the city centre? More recently is it because of the floods last year, and/or foreign misconceptions about the 'Tsunami in Thailand"?

I'm curious what other think.

[Ulysses G.]

I have several tourist-oriented businesses near Thapae Gate and I think that you are very wrong.

Tourism is growing in leaps and bounds in Chiang Mai and Loi Kroh road has many more foreigners walking around in the day time than even a year ago.

The BBC and CNN did slow down tourism here the first few few months of high season with constant reports on Bird Flu and how it would pass to large numbers of human beings in South East Asia any second, but since the birds have started being found pretty much everywhere they have toned down their rheteric about Thailand. Now we are selling better than ever before and so are my friends with foreign restaurants that depend on tourists.

Don't be a Gloomy Gus; Chiang Mai keeps on getting better and better!

[Maejo Man]

I have several tourist-oriented businesses near Thapae Gate and I think that you are very wrong.

Don't be a Gloomy Gus; Chiang Mai keeps on getting better and better!

The corporate mogul of Chiangmai speaks Pray tells us UG how it's getting better, and what you are using as a reference......

Currently we have...

Bad roads

Unfinished projects

Increased traffic

Filthy air

Concrete flyovers

Expansion in high rise development

Carnival Safaris

Excessive pollution

Early closing

The list is endless. The tallest building in Chiangmai used to be the Chiang Inn Hotel, and traffic lights were those funny coloured lights they had in Bangkok to cause traffic jams.

"Chiang Mai keeps on getting better and better! " ....Sheesh

[mobile69]

I don't know anything about numbers of tourists coming here, but certainly CM is no longer the charming city it used to be. "Butt Ugly" would be the phrase that springs to mind of today's CM. Very sad to say it. However, once you're out of the city sprawl. the area is as beautiful as before, unless you look at the garbage strewn ring roads & sois. And then there's the pollution filled valley, but that it seems applies to most of SE Asia at this time of the year. If you're contemplating visiting as a tourist, wait a few months until the rains arrive. Northern Thailand will be beautiful then. If you're considering retiring or settling here, seriously reconsider....

[Maejo Man]

However, once you're out of the city sprawl. the area is as beautiful as before, unless you look at the garbage strewn ring roads & sois. If you're considering retiring or settling here, seriously reconsider....

Just concrete and plastic on the move mobile69

[rishi]

I'm with Ulysses - at least as far as my 4-year aquiantance with Chiang Mai goes. I can't speak about how much worse it has gone since the 'good-old-days', I can only speak about what I think has bettered in the latter few years.

I'm with Ulysses in the sense, that Thapae Gate is the center of the tourist district and few tourist ever go that far out as to even the inner ringroad and look at the flyovers and garbage. The outer limits for a 2-3 day tourist would be Wat Phrasing to the west and the eastern bank of Mae Ping to the east.They would never get more northern, than the northern moat and they would never get more southern than Chiang Mai Gate.

What was the point, I were going to make? ... Hum, I think I've forgotten it ... I guess, I have no clever arguments, except that i feel its nicer around here than 4 years ago.

However, I'm still looking forward to the day when the're done with whatever they are doing at the southern end of Thapae Gate. It was definately an improvement, when they replaced that U-turn with a flowerbed, but now the flowers have been gone for quite a while ... Will they be back before Songkran?

[1bigeater56]

Fact of the matter is that there is much more tourists here now than there ever has been. The city is dirtier, the air is dirter and the city is so congestested that you can hardly stand it. So, does filth keep tourist away? No.

[cobra]

... The city is dirtier, the air is dirter and the city is so congestested that you can hardly stand it ...

I think we can all agree it's no Venice, it's hard to get a baseline as whether it's getting any worse,

Clean streets, air and congestion have never been CM's strong points, but it still has it's charms.

[Gary A]

I think it HAS lost it. It is a smaller version of Bangkok without the Sky Train or the Subway. Traffic is horrible and the air quality is really bad. I'd actually rather live in Bangkok and I don't want to live there either. Give me the boonies any day.

[Ajarn]

For all those saying Chiang Mai has 'lost its charm', let me suggest that it is you who are losing your charm. Chiang Mai is simply a growing city with all the inherrent associated problems. People still move here, and they still move away... And life goes on for the rest of us.

What's the big deal?

[kkk33]

For all those saying Chiang Mai has 'lost its charm', let me suggest that it is you who are losing your charm.

Chiang Mai is simply a growing city with all the inherrent associated problems. People still move here, and they still move away... And life goes on for the rest of us.

What's the big deal?

Simple mind, simple thoughts...

[Ajarn]

For all those saying Chiang Mai has 'lost its charm', let me suggest that it is you who are losing your charm.

Chiang Mai is simply a growing city with all the inherrent associated problems. People still move here, and they still move away... And life goes on for the rest of us.

What's the big deal?

Simple mind, simple thoughts...

Exactly!

[kkk33]

For all those saying Chiang Mai has 'lost its charm', let me suggest that it is you who are losing your charm.

Chiang Mai is simply a growing city with all the inherrent associated problems. People still move here, and they still move away... And life goes on for the rest of us.

What's the big deal?

Simple mind, simple thoughts...

Exactly!

[groo]

For all those saying Chiang Mai has 'lost its charm', let me suggest that it is you who are losing your charm.

Chiang Mai is simply a growing city with all the inherrent associated problems. People still move here, and they still move away... And life goes on for the rest of us.

What's the big deal?

Simple mind, simple thoughts...

Exactly!

CM attacts millions every year. Despite its pollution (yearly affair), everyone flocks here. Forget tourists from foreign countries. CM had record high visitors (from within Thailand and abroad) to Doi Inthanon, Doi Suthep, and the whole works around the city during 2005. Go ask the forest ranger, he'll tell you how much revenues CM made last year. Are there going to be more tourists here this year? You bet!

Why has CM lost its charm past few years? Well cause its just attracting more people here. Its growing. Look at new mooban developments. Are they selling? Of course. Its a booming city. For some of us who have been here 4 years or more, yes lots of changes. Whether for the good or the bad, no one can be sure cause its all individual tastes of how a city to be at the end of the day. Its not a small city being centered just within the moat anymore. Middle ring roads have establishments makings lots of money each day.

I don't mind it a bit. Its where I call home and unless and until a Thai knocks on my door and says "you do not belong here with good reasons to back it up", I shall be here.

[chanchao]

> Is CM getting more visitors but lower per tourist spend revenues and

> thus lower incomes into the local economy?

No, exactly the other way around. 10+ years ago there were almost ONLY backpackers, and some package tourers who didn't venture much beyond their hotel and restaurants immediately next to them. Does seem that more single men made it up to Chiang Mai 10 years ago though, that segment is completely dominated by Bangkok, Patters and other beachy desintions now. Loi Kroh is indeed pretty gloomy in many ways. (Compared to foreign nightlife areas in Pattaya or Bangkok or Phuket)

> Is it because it's Taksin's home town people (particularly Thai's), are sceptical of

> investing?

No.. Look at all the 5 star mega hotels going up. 10+ years ago there were NO 5 star hotels. (Well, perhaps just what used to be the Westin)

And look for example at Nimmanaemin Road 'Then and Now', then tell me again local people aren't investing.....

> Is it because CM is noticeably spreading out further from the city centre?

Ha, consider the alternative: Unabated expansion INSIDE the city center. Channelling away from the old center is a local policy, AND one that's working.

BTW, some examples posted by people aren't really fair.. Like a picture of Khlong Mae Kha Canal, which was a MUCH bigger mess 10 years ago. It's been beautified on many places on the outside, now what's left is just the water quality. (Which was atorcious also 10 years ago).

> Bad roads

Thapae is a mess, but other than that, the new Ring roads are among the best in Thailand (with the tunnels). The inner city has a one-way system that WORKS. Canal Road is a stellar road now, too. All major roads to outlying districs have been made 4/6 lane separate-lane roads. There's the New Sankamphaeng road, the old one was super dangerous. That one has recently been beautified too with bicycle lanes, footpaths, lanterns and signage in an additional language nobody can read. Remember what it was like driving to Doi Saket or the Sankamphaeng area 10 years ago? Yikes! THAT was bad!!!

> Unfinished projects

Nope. After the economic crisis, almost everything has been picked up again, including the VERY nice new Pantip Plaza.

> Increased traffic

Of course. Comes with growing into a bigger city. If it gets too big then there's always Lamphun or Phrae or something, or Doi Saket, Sanpatong, etc, etc.

If Chiang Mai wasn't a nice place, it wouldn't be growing so fast...

> Filthy air

Is a problem, especially (only?) in the dry season.

> Concrete flyovers

They changed their ways on that one. It's now tunnels galore, which look MUCH better... The people in local govenrment dont like flyovers either, so changes were made for the better. Imagine the old Lamphun road with a big fat concrete flyover.. It got a tunnel you don't even see from that road.

> Expansion in high rise development

Of course. However the new roads and the chanelling of development away from the center means there's a lot of land available AND accessible, so less need for Condo's. The main condo boom was during the bubble years anyway, when they were considered modern and hi-so. There's laws in place that ban high rise condo's in the old center. (And no point in building them further away where land is cheap.). Kudos to the Tessaban on this one.

> Carnival Safaris

Just one at last count. Indeed I don't think this type of project is the way to go. Another ill-conceived Taksin brain fart. Let's hope it will remain just this monumental f-up.

> Early closing

If you DONT have nightlife regulation laws (like before) then you get people complaining about the Karaoke shack next door that keeps blaring until 4am and people would say Chiang Mai is going to the dogs because of the ABSENCE of such regulations. And it's a nationwide thing, obviously. If anything it helps stop the Pattayafication of Chiang Mai.

Cheers,

Chanchao

[mark45y]

Early closing! Somebody tell my head as it is still trying to get over last night when I staggered home around 4 AM.

[Ajarn]

Thanks, Chanchao, for the thoughtful, balanced, and accurate post...

[taipan]

There are two separate issues here:

1/ Whether Chiang Mai is losing its charm and

2/ Whether new investment has or not contributed to this perceived decline.

Without doubt Chiang Mai will continue to lose its charm. The real question is whether economic development will benefit the City and its people?

[Ulysses G.]

I have several tourist-oriented businesses near Thapae Gate and I think that you are very wrong.

Don't be a Gloomy Gus; Chiang Mai keeps on getting better and better!

Pray tells us UG how it's getting better, and what you are using as a reference......

I don't remember Chiang Mai being anything like Shangri La in the 17 years that I've been around.

In fact, downtown had big problems with much of what's on your list when I arrived here and, if anything, is more attractive and has much more to offer now.

In fact, one of my first memories is of impatiently trying to cross the street at Thapae Gate to an endless stream of traffic and that was in 1989.

For a more complete answer, see both adjarn and chanchou's excellent posts above because I agree with both of them.

[mrmillersr]

For all those saying Chiang Mai has 'lost its charm', let me suggest that it is you who are losing your charm.

Chiang Mai is simply a growing city with all the inherrent associated problems. People still move here, and they still move away... And life goes on for the rest of us.

What's the big deal?

Simple mind, simple thoughts...

Exactly!

KKK33 for some of the members you might want to consider drawing a diagram or using pictures otherwise they just won't get it.

[paco]

> Is CM getting more visitors but lower per tourist spend revenues and

> thus lower incomes into the local economy?

No, exactly the other way around. 10+ years ago there were almost ONLY backpackers, and some package tourers who didn't venture much beyond their hotel and restaurants immediately next to them. Does seem that more single men made it up to Chiang Mai 10 years ago though, that segment is completely dominated by Bangkok, Patters and other beachy desintions now. Loi Kroh is indeed pretty gloomy in many ways. (Compared to foreign nightlife areas in Pattaya or Bangkok or Phuket)

> Is it because it's Taksin's home town people (particularly Thai's), are sceptical of

> investing?

No.. Look at all the 5 star mega hotels going up. 10+ years ago there were NO 5 star hotels. (Well, perhaps just what used to be the Westin)

And look for example at Nimmanaemin Road 'Then and Now', then tell me again local people aren't investing.....

> Is it because CM is noticeably spreading out further from the city centre?

Ha, consider the alternative: Unabated expansion INSIDE the city center. Channelling away from the old center is a local policy, AND one that's working.

BTW, some examples posted by people aren't really fair.. Like a picture of Khlong Mae Kha Canal, which was a MUCH bigger mess 10 years ago. It's been beautified on many places on the outside, now what's left is just the water quality. (Which was atorcious also 10 years ago).

> Bad roads

Thapae is a mess, but other than that, the new Ring roads are among the best in Thailand (with the tunnels). The inner city has a one-way system that WORKS. Canal Road is a stellar road now, too. All major roads to outlying districs have been made 4/6 lane separate-lane roads. There's the New Sankamphaeng road, the old one was super dangerous. That one has recently been beautified too with bicycle lanes, footpaths, lanterns and signage in an additional language nobody can read. Remember what it was like driving to Doi Saket or the Sankamphaeng area 10 years ago? Yikes! THAT was bad!!!

> Unfinished projects

Nope. After the economic crisis, almost everything has been picked up again, including the VERY nice new Pantip Plaza.

> Increased traffic

Of course. Comes with growing into a bigger city. If it gets too big then there's always Lamphun or Phrae or something, or Doi Saket, Sanpatong, etc, etc.

If Chiang Mai wasn't a nice place, it wouldn't be growing so fast...

> Filthy air

Is a problem, especially (only?) in the dry season.

> Concrete flyovers

They changed their ways on that one. It's now tunnels galore, which look MUCH better... The people in local govenrment dont like flyovers either, so changes were made for the better. Imagine the old Lamphun road with a big fat concrete flyover.. It got a tunnel you don't even see from that road.

> Expansion in high rise development

Of course. However the new roads and the chanelling of development away from the center means there's a lot of land available AND accessible, so less need for Condo's. The main condo boom was during the bubble years anyway, when they were considered modern and hi-so. There's laws in place that ban high rise condo's in the old center. (And no point in building them further away where land is cheap.). Kudos to the Tessaban on this one.

> Carnival Safaris

Just one at last count. Indeed I don't think this type of project is the way to go. Another ill-conceived Taksin brain fart. Let's hope it will remain just this monumental f-up.

> Early closing

If you DONT have nightlife regulation laws (like before) then you get people complaining about the Karaoke shack next door that keeps blaring until 4am and people would say Chiang Mai is going to the dogs because of the ABSENCE of such regulations. And it's a nationwide thing, obviously. If anything it helps stop the Pattayafication of Chiang Mai.

Cheers,

Chanchao

Whew! I was starting to get really depressed. Thanks for some positive views on Chiang Mai. I just got my O-A visa and as soon as I sell my car I'm moving to CM and plan to stay.

I spent the month of March there last year and loved it. The bad air was the only downer that I noticed and I figure since it's seasonal I can live with it.

I passed through Chiang Mai as a back packer in 1974 and did not recognize it at all on my last visit. It was a sweet little town, but not much to do.

I was pleased the "modern" CM has great restaurants, movie theaters, good shopping and to this soon to be expat, tons of charm!

[likite]

QUOTE(Ajarn @ 2006-03-26 08:37:07) *

For all those saying Chiang Mai has 'lost its charm', let me suggest that it is you who are losing your charm.

Chiang Mai is simply a growing city with all the inherrent associated problems. People still move here, and they still move away... And life goes on for the rest of us.

What's the big deal

Maybe its you who's lost their charm? Simple enough question???????

[rishi]

QUOTE(Ajarn @ 2006-03-26 08:37:07) *

For all those saying Chiang Mai has 'lost its charm', let me suggest that it is you who are losing your charm.

Chiang Mai is simply a growing city with all the inherrent associated problems. People still move here, and they still move away... And life goes on for the rest of us.

What's the big deal

Maybe its you who's lost their charm? Simple enough question???????

... and your opinion is ... ???

[Johpa]

Chiang Mai has changed dramatically over the past few decades. For those of us who were enamoured by the city at some point in the past, well of course the "charm" of that era has changed just as we have changed and aged. But even way back when, the traffic along the major arterials like Thapae, Moon Muang & CHotana, and in front of Worarot was awful. Now it is awful in most places although the institution of the one-way roads along the moat did improve things a bit.

For many, the existence of the new roads provides and enables the modern charm. Many ex-pats now live a bit outside the city and would never accept the old death defying two-lane highways out to the main satellite towns of Mae Rim, Sankhampeng, and Hang Dong. Life outside the city use to be far too ethnic for most of todays ex-pats and traditional villages are not really an option, even for other Thais, unless you marry into one.

For those who like a vibrant modern city, I would imagine that Chiang Mai has more charm today than in past decades. It certainly has the modern conveniences and ease of shopping that it lacked back when Tantrphan was the major, and really only, department store in town. But for me, the old charm that first attracted me to the city evaporated once they brought in the tuk-tuks and closed the old Henessy Club off of Huay Khao. But the wife and kids sure like to visit and go see a first run movie in English at one of the newer shopping malls. It is just that I am not a mall kind of guy. I would rather hang with my neigbors in the village or visit the local cantinas decorated with colored lights and a single reflective disco ball and listen to country girls in high boots and fishnet stocking crooning Thai country songs while drinking Mae Khong. But even these traditional cantinas are disappearing as the soulless neo middle class mubaanjatsaans (new housing estates) take over the landscape in the outlying areas too.

[rishi]

Thanks to all the oldtimers, sharing their thoughts on this city I've decided to learn how to love for good or for bad.

[Ajarn]

Chiang Mai has changed dramatically over the past few decades. For those of us who were enamoured by the city at some point in the past, well of course the "charm" of that era has changed just as we have changed and aged. But even way back when, the traffic along the major arterials like Thapae, Moon Muang & CHotana, and in front of Worarot was awful. Now it is awful in most places although the institution of the one-way roads along the moat did improve things a bit.

For many, the existence of the new roads provides and enables the modern charm. Many ex-pats now live a bit outside the city and would never accept the old death defying two-lane highways out to the main satellite towns of Mae Rim, Sankhampeng, and Hang Dong. Life outside the city use to be far too ethnic for most of todays ex-pats and traditional villages are not really an option, even for other Thais, unless you marry into one.

For those who like a vibrant modern city, I would imagine that Chiang Mai has more charm today than in past decades. It certainly has the modern conveniences and ease of shopping that it lacked back when Tantrphan was the major, and really only, department store in town. But for me, the old charm that first attracted me to the city evaporated once they brought in the tuk-tuks and closed the old Henessy Club off of Huay Khao. But the wife and kids sure like to visit and go see a first run movie in English at one of the newer shopping malls. It is just that I am not a mall kind of guy. I would rather hang with my neigbors in the village or visit the local cantinas decorated with colored lights and a single reflective disco ball and listen to country girls in high boots and fishnet stocking crooning Thai country songs while drinking Mae Khong. But even these traditional cantinas are disappearing as the soulless neo middle class mubaanjatsaans (new housing estates) take over the landscape in the outlying areas too.

Sounds like you're in a better place now, living in America and visiting here once every few years. Congratulations.

[Ajarn]

For all those saying Chiang Mai has 'lost its charm', let me suggest that it is you who are losing your charm.

Chiang Mai is simply a growing city with all the inherrent associated problems. People still move here, and they still move away... And life goes on for the rest of us.

What's the big deal?

Simple mind, simple thoughts...

Exactly!

KKK33 for some of the members you might want to consider drawing a diagram or using pictures otherwise they just won't get it.

Your feelings still hurt from when I suggested you change your name to 'mrbummer'?

What a wimp

[cdnvic]

Ok, be nice. Inhaling burning plastic has made you guys aggressive.

Seriously, I like the way the haze enhances the glow of the Khom Loy floating in the sky, and riding on the superhighway at night on the weekends has given me a courage most only find in combat.

cv

[Diablo Bob]

Has Chiangmai lost its’ charm to me? No and it probably never will.

I think that with all the development, haze (smog) and traffic the city still has retained its’ soul.

No it isn’t the city it once was, but all cities mature and evolve. I for one, still think that this is the best city in Thailand even with its’ negatives, at least for me and my family.

I bitch at the traffic daily, but when I reflect on Bangkok and Mexico City and Los Angeles, well it isn’t so bad. I too hate the smog, but again when I reflect on some cities elsewhere it isn’t so bad.

We all judge differently, and as such have different opinions. By my criteria, I am living in a city with a lot of charm and a vibrant soul. Wouldn’t consider moving…….

[SamSipEt]

Losing its charm? No not in my opinion the charm changes as does the charmee it’s a bit like a long term relationship in that as you grow older you either grow together or grow apart. Ignore the downers of heavy traffic (not a lot of this anyway) and pollution (not a lot of this anyway) and other problems (not a lot of them either). I like Chiang Mai!