Boy Scouts To Allow Openly Gay Scouts

[Scott]

Boy Scouts decision to allow openly gay youth members garners mixed reaction

While some gay-rights supporters praised vote's outcome, others were disappointed in continued ban on gay adult leaders.

While some gay-rights supporters praised Thursday's vote by the Boy Scouts of America in favor of formally accepting openly gay scouts, others were disappointed in the group's decision to continue to block gay scout leaders.

The Boy Scouts will formally accept openly gay boys beginning 1 January 2014, after more than 60% of its members voted Thursday in favor of ending the longstanding ban.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/24/boy-scouts-america-gay-youth-vote-reactions

Here's a bit of good news.

[Jingthing]

It's horrible news! They've kept the ban on gay adults as leaders. What an immoral message for the youth. It's OK to be a gay boy but once you grow up we think you're a pervert and not fit to be near children. This will not stand.

[onthemoon]

It's horrible news! They've kept the ban on gay adults as leaders. What an immoral message for the youth. It's OK to be a gay boy but once you grow up we think you're a pervert and not fit to be near children. This will not stand.

I'm not sure whether it is compulsory in the US to become a boy scout, as it is in Thailand. If not, they can of course make their own rules.

But I found this in the linked article:

White House spokesman Shin Inouye said President Barack Obama welcomed

the Scouts' decision regarding gay youth but "continues to believe that

leadership positions in the Scouts should be open to all, regardless of

sexual orientation."

This may be your point, but I see that the top man requests rethinking.

I also saw this:

Religious groups sponsor 70% of the more than 100,000 scouting units in

the US. While some including the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of

Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Southern Baptist churches have

supported the ban in the past, others think it should be revoked.

It just make a a religious and financial thing. So it's up to the parents whether they want to send their sons to that organisation or not.

There is a chance that the first opening (for members) is a response to the changed public opinion about gays, and the second opening (for leaders) will be for the survival of the organisation.

[Scott]

Sorry, JT, but I can't quite fully agree with you, but I do understand where you are coming from. I am very, very happy for the many gay boys who will have one less problem with which to deal.

The point is, it is a step in the right direction. Eventually, I think they will realize that it safe to have gay scout leaders. It needs time.

[Jingthing]

It's a message to gay boys that the club they're joining to help them grow up rejects the men they are destined to grow up as. Its a totally schizoid policy.

Boy Scouts’ ‘compromise’ on gay members is dead wrong

Until the Boy Scouts of America can support our children for who they are and who they will become, how can we expect anyone to support an organization that will ultimately betray them?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-faith/wp/2013/05/22/scouts-gay-ban-james-dale/

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2013/05/boy_scouts_keep_ban_on_gay_adult_leaders_the_bsa_s_new_policy_will_fail.2.html

Some will view the policy change as progress, which it certainly is for the estimated tens of thousands of gay boy scouts
who will finally feel a sense of belonging that was needlessly denied
them before. But this modicum of progress virtually dries up when you
consider what those same boys will face as they age out of the Boy
Scouts: a giant slap-down for anyone wishing to become a Scout leader,
with the attendant message that, while being a gay kid is now sort-of
OK, being a gay man is still shameful. How is that a place for gay kids
to “belong while they learn and grow”?

...

But now that equation has been removed, with a new policy reflecting a
belief that gay youth can be “morally straight.” Where does that leave
gay adults, who most gay youth become? The Boy Scouts’ strange new
policy makes an untenable distinction between the morality of gay boys
and gay men, which reflects a defining feature of homosexuality in 21^st-century America: that it’s virtually the only thing people seem content to call immoral without ever explaining why.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I actually think this new policy is more odious than their old policy.
The old policy said: no gays, none of the time. Garden variety discrimination. Homosexuality is a sin, is wrong, blah blah blah.

The new policy says: gay adults specifically are a danger to children. That in my view is an even more homophobic message to send to America's children than the total ban.

I get why some see this as a small step forward. I really don't. I see it definitely as a step backwards.

Whatever. I'm glad the Boy Scouts took a step towards
non-discrimination, but telling a young boy that he's no longer a
pervert because he hasn't hit the ripe pedophile age of 18, is still a
huge problem, in my humble opinion.

It's like accepting black children in your swimming pool, but claiming that letting the adults in is just a step too far.

Not to mention, what message does that send to children, gay and
straight? That, yes, be nice to your fellow soon-t0-be-pedophile gay
scouts because they haven't become a threat to children yet, but they
will in a few years. Gee, thanks.

http://www.theroot.com/buzz/how-boy-scouts-are-still-discriminatory

Edited May 25, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

I've always found the whole idea of Boy Scouts and grown men dressing up in shorts and funny hats a bit odd, but each to his own.

The problem to me is nothing to do with people becoming perverts at 18 and adult scout leaders possibly being "predatory", but it boils down to why BOY Scouts and GIRL Guides are kept separate. If its unacceptable for adult heterosexual men to supervise teenage girls showering naked after sports or skinny dipping their way across a river or whatever else they get up to (and vice- versa), which is presumably because of their sexual preference, why is it acceptable for adult gay men to supervise teenage boys?

If the object is to make things fair to all, gay or straight, then surely the rules have to be consistent ... and if the rule is that straight men shouldn't be supervising girls or straight women supervising boys, then applying the rules consistently would mean that gay men shouldn't supervise boys or lesbians supervise girls.

... and if Scout and Guide leaders aren't predatory and can be trusted with teenagers regardless of their own or their boys' or girls' sexual preferences, then the rules should be changed to reflect that, so if sexual preference isn't an issue then gender shouldn't be either.

Allowing gay men to supervise boys (including gay boys, where there may be some mutual attraction) but not allowing straight men to supervise girls under similar circumstances seems discriminatory to me, and if we're talking about "messages" what message is that sending?

Edited May 25, 2013 by LeCharivari

[Jingthing]

That Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are separate organizations. What is this obsession with showering? Too bloody bizarre for words.

[LeCharivari]

Its NOTHING "like accepting black children in your swimming pool but claiming that letting the adults in is just a step too far".

Its about SEX, plain and simple, and who likes to have sex with whom, and how best to stop it happening.

[Jingthing]

Its NOTHING "like accepting black children in your swimming pool but claiming that letting the adults in is just a step too far".

Its about SEX, plain and simple, and who likes to have sex with whom, and how best to stop it happening.

Wow. Some of us might be our own worst enemies.

We EXPECT right wing haters to push vile lies that gay men are likely pedos. The boy scout policy CAVES to these haters.

http://www.advocate.com/youth/2013/02/06/six-scout-supporters-who-say-gays-are-child-molesters

But right-wing pundits have for a long time lobbed heinous

antigay allegations that contend gay adults are likely pedophiles. Keep

reading to find six of the most egregious statements made recently by

wingnuts trying to defend the BSA's antigay policy, including designated

hate group Family Research Council, a former governor, and several

religious leaders.

Of course, numerous studies have demonstrated that pedophiles are more likely to be heterosexual than gay — one study from Canada, published

on the U.S. National Library of Medicine through the National

Institutes of Health, found that among convicted sex offenders, the

ratio of those identifying as heterosexual compared to homosexual was

11:1.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

Its NOTHING "like accepting black children in your swimming pool but claiming that letting the adults in is just a step too far".

Its about SEX, plain and simple, and who likes to have sex with whom, and how best to stop it happening.

Wow. Some of us might be our own worst enemies.

We EXPECT right wing haters to push vile lies that gay men are likely pedos. The boy scout policy CAVES to these haters.

http://www.advocate.com/youth/2013/02/06/six-scout-supporters-who-say-gays-are-child-molesters

But right-wing pundits have for a long time lobbed heinous

antigay allegations that contend gay adults are likely pedophiles. Keep

reading to find six of the most egregious statements made recently by

wingnuts trying to defend the BSA's antigay policy, including designated

hate group Family Research Council, a former governor, and several

religious leaders.

Of course, numerous studies have demonstrated that pedophiles are more likely to be heterosexual than gay one study from Canada, published

on the U.S. National Library of Medicine through the National

Institutes of Health, found that among convicted sex offenders, the

ratio of those identifying as heterosexual compared to homosexual was

11:1.

I never said or suggested that "gay men are likely pedos", which, unsurprisingly, is a total misrepresentation of what I wrote.

What I said was that whatever rules are applied should be applied CONSISTENTLY.

I chose "showering" as one of two examples because its one that most of us do naked and so one where having a gay man supervising teenage boys is NO MORE and NO LESS appropriate than having a straight man supervising teenage girls.

The SAME rules should be applied to everyone, regardless of gender, sexual preference, etc. Boy and Girl Scouts were set up separately by Baden Powell in 1908 and 1910 respectively to do exactly the same thing while keeping those who like to have sex with each other apart.

The rules you are suggesting are, effectively, keeping those who like to have sex with the opposite sex apart while allowing those who like it with the same sex to be together. Whether any of them are "likely pedos" or not is not an issue - at least not to me.

My point is simply that as gays when we want equal treatment we should make sure that its EQUAL on all levels, not just where it suits us.

[Jingthing]

You should offer yourself up as a highly paid consultant to the Boy Scouts so they can PR sugar coat their anti-gay bigotry which is obviously about gay men being seen as pedos, as actually a pro equality policy. Once they hear about this, they will probably be flogging themselves -- why didn't WE think of that?!?

BTW, not sure you realize this or not, but in my view you have just implicitly argued that gay boys be banned as well from scouting. Was that intentional?

Edited May 25, 2013 by Jingthing

[Robby nz]

I promised the mods I would never post on this subject again but to this one I must reply.

As someone who was the target of a homosexual scout master many years ago I will say it is a big mistake.

It is just pandering to a small minority in the name of political correctness.

The scouting movement was conceived by Lord Baden Powel to prepare boys for life in this world as men, those who want to be something else should not join.

[onthemoon]

I promised the mods I would never post on this subject again but to this one I must reply.

As someone who was the target of a homosexual scout master many years ago I will say it is a big mistake.

It is just pandering to a small minority in the name of political correctness.

The scouting movement was conceived by Lord Baden Powel to prepare boys for life in this world as men, those who want to be something else should not join.

I would think you were not the target of a homosexual scout master but a pedophile scout master.

This thread is not about pedophile scout masters, but about gay boy scouts. Completely different issue. If you were gay, then you would now be allowed to join and be prepared for life as a man (a gay man, that is), and no longer be excluded. The pedophile scout master that you encountered would still not be allowed to be a scout master. How is this wrong?

[Scott]

I don't fully disagree with you JT, but I am happy to see a small step in the right direction. The rest will follow eventually. Some of those young, gay Eagle Scouts will grow up and they will become Scout Leaders. It will happen. Give it time.

Oh, and as I understand it, Lord Baden Powell had some skeletons in his closet that would have most likely excluded him from being either a member or a scout leader under their previous rules.

[geriatrickid]

I promised the mods I would never post on this subject again but to this one I must reply.

As someone who was the target of a homosexual scout master many years ago I will say it is a big mistake.

It is just pandering to a small minority in the name of political correctness.

The scouting movement was conceived by Lord Baden Powel to prepare boys for life in this world as men, those who want to be something else should not join.

Baden Powel was a disgusting individual. However, just as the scouting movement evolved beyond his bigoted views, so too will its administrative policies.

If one looks at the Scouting organization's polling on this issue, a slight majority of its scouts was in favour of allowing gays in. It was the scouting parents & organizers that resisted. As scouting digests the presence of gay scouts, it will learn that they are not "bad" people and attitudes will change again. Considering the fact that many scout troops are sponsored by church groups that are anti gay, it speaks volumes about the change in attitudes. Progress will come in small steps. Keep in mind that many scout troops are sponsored by organizations and groups that have resisted gay rights. This is a big step.

[Scott]

Here's a link about Baden-Powell, that may shed some light on his proclivities:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/20/opinion/scoutings-gay-founder.html?_r=0

[Robby nz]

I would think you were not the target of a homosexual scout master but a pedophile scout master.

This thread is not about pedophile scout masters, but about gay boy scouts. Completely different issue. If you were gay, then you would now be allowed to join and be prepared for life as a man (a gay man, that is), and no longer be excluded. The pedophile scout master that you encountered would still not be allowed to be a scout master. How is this wrong?

A pedophile who targets boys is a homosexual pedophile there can be no doubt about that.

Some of those young, gay Eagle Scouts will grow up and they will become Scout Leaders. It will happen. Give it time.

So there we go, according to Scott it now becoming about leaders

A homosexual who has tendencies as a pedophile will see an easy target in scouting.

For a homosexual to put himself in a position of being in charge of boys, particularly in an unsupervised capacity must immediately arouse suspicion to his motives.

Oh he may just love scouting and want to do a civic duty but then again.

To try to divert the topic to the sins of B P wont help.

[Jingthing]

Nobody is fooled by this bigoted new Boy Scouts policy. It's about catering to the right wingers red baiting about gays as pedos. It is not only a hateful policy, it's an idiotic one. The ban is targeted at OUT gay men. Generally the actual pedos are NOT out men. So not only do they discriminate, they have not prevented pedo crimes in the scouts. Total fail.

The anecdotal report from a pedo victim deserves sympathy. But it deserves NO SYMPATHY as some kind of justification for continued IRRATIONAL discrimination against all out gay men.

Nobody is suggesting any tolerance at all for actual known pedos to be scout leaders. DUH.

Target the criminals. NOT the innocent. Adults or children.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

...

Some of those young, gay Eagle Scouts will grow up and they will become Scout Leaders. It will happen. Give it time.

...

No they will NOT under the current new policy. If they were out as boys, they are booted out at age 18. That is disgusting.

[catmac]

I don't fully disagree with you JT, but I am happy to see a small step in the right direction. The rest will follow eventually. Some of those young, gay Eagle Scouts will grow up and they will become Scout Leaders. It will happen. Give it time.

Oh, and as I understand it, Lord Baden Powell had some skeletons in his closet that would have most likely excluded him from being either a member or a scout leader under their previous rules.

I think you're being very kind to Lord B.P., to say the least, Scott, a truly bizare fellow indeed.

I'm with you on the step-by-step approach, I'm afraid JT has this all-or-nothing approach that more often than not leaves us with nothing!

[CWMcMurray]

I was a scout growing up and my dad was the scout master.

As I remember, every one of the adults volunteering in the scout troop had kids that were in the scout troop.

I think it would have been seen as a bit odd if any of the scouts leaders did not have kids in the program

I think that perhaps making a requirement to be a scout leader, you should have kids in the program wouldn't be such a bad thing

Now a days there are many gays with sons from lives before coming out or partners with kids.

I also think gay adoption should be legal and any gay couples with adopted sons should also be able to be scout leaders as well

This is also not to discriminate against gay men, as also believe that this rule should apply to straight men as well

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[CWMcMurray]

Also to the poster advising that men can not be Girl Scout leaders and so gay men can not be boy scout leaders....

May want to check out the below link to Girl Scouts website ... It clearly states that men can in fact be girl scout leaders

http://www.girlscoutsla.org/pages/about/join_faqs.html

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[Jingthing]

...

I'm with you on the step-by-step approach, I'm afraid JT has this all-or-nothing approach that more often than not leaves us with nothing!

No I don't. I have been very supportive of the American strategy to go for weak state marriages as part of the long struggle for full equality which will eventually result in full federal marriage equality. What I hate about this boy scout policy change is that it focuses attention now on demonization of gays as pedo threats. That's a step backwards for how gays are viewed in American society by the mainstream.

[Jingthing]

I was a scout growing up and my dad was the scout master.

...

I bet you didn't have many OUT gay boy scouts in your olden days either, mate. Life moves on.

[CWMcMurray]

Well I am not that old, so wouldn't call it "Olden days"..., unless you think of the Clinton years as the "Olden days" as the tail end of my scouting time fell during this period

Although you are correct that didn't have any Friends or fellow scouts that came out during that time

Kids can be cruel, but I like to think that I would have been ok and not treated them any differently.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[Jingthing]

Discrimination based only on sexual orientation is wrong. End of story. In the end, we will win this, but for the time being, Americans are hearing the message of the right wing fear mongers being validated as being of merit in this disgusting ban on gay adult leaders.

Would Rosa Parks have been satisfied with black children being allowed in the front of the bus, with black adults being left in the back? I think not and neither should gay people. Eyes on the prize. Yes, the American gay civil rights movement is DIRECTLY related to the American black civil rights movement.

Look, I am someone who stood with Harvey Milk fighting Prop 6 about discriminating against gay teachers; who attended with Frank Kameny a trial of a Maryland school teacher being fired just for his status as a gay man, and he was fired. Two of the most important civil rights leaders in American history. I can easily channel the spirit of these great leaders and I know for certain what they would think of this SHABBY and unfairly discriminatory boy scout leaders policy.

Those still fighting to discriminate against gay people solely based on their sexual orientation status are clearly on the wrong side of history. But history takes time. Sometimes a lot of time.

Look I understand that this gay boys now allowed change is going to be a short term positive for many gay boys. But in the long term if these gay boys are growing up in a society which is more convinced that gay adult = pedo, the long term is not as bright. This gay adult leader ban MUST be overturned.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

You should offer yourself up as a highly paid consultant to the Boy Scouts so they can PR sugar coat their anti-gay bigotry which is obviously about gay men being seen as pedos, as actually a pro equality policy. Once they hear about this, they will probably be flogging themselves -- why didn't WE think of that?!?

BTW, not sure you realize this or not, but in my view you have just implicitly argued that gay boys be banned as well from scouting. Was that intentional?

My point has nothing to do with "pedos", however much you may try to misrepresent it - that is a totally separate issue and as far as I am aware sex with 16 and 17 year olds is NOT pedophilia.

My point is "about SEX, plain and simple, and who likes to have sex with whom, and how best to stop it happening." I really don't know how I can make it much simpler for you to understand.

No, I have never "argued that gay boys be banned as well from scouting" - unless they choose to indulge on the premises, which I imagine would be a contravention of scouting principles.

[LeCharivari]

Also to the poster advising that men can not be Girl Scout leaders and so gay men can not be boy scout leaders....

May want to check out the below link to Girl Scouts website ... It clearly states that men can in fact be girl scout leaders

http://www.girlscoutsla.org/pages/about/join_faqs.html

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

Now that IS interesting, and thanks for taking the time to read what I posted and respond.

As I said at the start, I know very little about Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Cubs, Guides, Brownies, Eagle Scouts, Daisies, etc, and I find all this "dib, dib, dib" and "dob, dob, dob" stuff a bit wierd, if not worrying in some cases.

My argument was that SEX is something these organisations seem to want to keep strictly at arms' length - understandably, really, as that is not what they are about. Looking a bit more closely at the Girl Scouts, though, they seem to have got it a lot more "right" than the Boy Scouts as far as both leadership and LGBT issues are concerned - for example LGBT issues are openly discussed and they require TWO or more adults present (only one of whom can be male), which would seem to answer both my point and the one on "pedos".

[LeCharivari]

Discrimination based only on sexual orientation is wrong. End of story. In the end, we will win this, but for the time being, Americans are hearing the message of the right wing fear mongers being validated as being of merit in this disgusting ban on gay adult leaders.

Would Rosa Parks have been satisfied with black children being allowed in the front of the bus, with black adults being left in the back? I think not and neither should gay people. Eyes on the prize. Yes, the American gay civil rights movement is DIRECTLY related to the American black civil rights movement.

Look, I am someone who stood with Harvey Milk fighting Prop 6 about discriminating against gay teachers; who attended with Frank Kameny a trial of a Maryland school teacher being fired just for his status as a gay man, and he was fired. Two of the most important civil rights leaders in American history. I can easily channel the spirit of these great leaders and I know for certain what they would think of this SHABBY and unfairly discriminatory boy scout leaders policy.

Those still fighting to discriminate against gay people solely based on their sexual orientation status are clearly on the wrong side of history. But history takes time. Sometimes a lot of time.

Look I understand that this gay boys now allowed change is going to be a short term positive for many gay boys. But in the long term if these gay boys are growing up in a society which is more convinced that gay adult = pedo, the long term is not as bright. This gay adult leader ban MUST be overturned.

"Look", this issue has NOTHING to do with "black children ... Rosa Parks ..." or "... the black civil rights movement". If gay rights issues can't stand up and be judged on their own merits then they don't deserve to be judged at all.

The problem with this issue, as with many connected ones and many others, is that one group's civil rights can't be judged purely in isolation and constantly banging the table and insisting that OUR rights must be upheld even at everyone else's expense only alienates those we should be trying to win over to reach a workable and reasonable solution.

Gay rights are only "rights" as long as they don't affect other people's rights, just as the right to free speech has to be balanced against an incitement to hatred and the right to a free press balanced with a right to privacy. Its not just black and white.

Just as gay children have a "right" to join the Scouts and gay adults a "right" to be Scout leaders (as I believe do those who are atheists or agnostics who are still banned from membership as this is a fundamentally Christian organisation) so parents sending their children off to be Scouts have a "right" to expect their children to be protected not only from pedophiles (between 1965 and 1985 there were 1,200 documented alleged child abuse cases in the Boy Scouts of America) but from the sexual attentions of both the opposite and THE SAME sex, where any sexual conduct (homo or hetero) is banned. Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are kept apart for a reason, and that reason is SEX; add homosexuals to the equation and it all becomes a lot more complicated than just a "gay rights" issue.

Edited May 26, 2013 by LeCharivari