In Thailand's Schools, Vestiges Of Military Rule

[webfact]

In Thailand's Schools, Vestiges of Military Rule

By THOMAS FULLER

SAMUT PRAKAN, Thailand — Put aside for a moment the image of Thailand that tourists often see, a laid-back, anything-goes country of libidinous night life.

Thai students have an altogether different impression. In Thai schools, a drill sergeant’s dream of regimentation rooted in the military dictatorships of the past, discipline and enforced deference prevail.

At a public school in this industrial Bangkok suburb, teachers wield bamboo canes and reprimand students for long hair, ordering it sheared on the spot. Students are inspected for dirty fingernails, colored socks or any other violation of the school dress code.

“At a fundamental level, students should have the same appearance,” said Arun Wanpen, the vice principal, who presided over the morning ceremony one recent school day. A sea of uniformed students with close-cropped black hair (no dyed hair is allowed) sang the national anthem, recited a Buddhist incantation and repeated a pledge to sacrifice their lives for the nation, love the king and “not cause any trouble.”

Yet as the legacy of military rule fades, some students are rising up and challenging, with some success, a system that stresses unquestioned obedience. They have a receptive ally in a government that is seeking to reduce the military’s role in civic life and has proposed sweeping changes to the education system. [more...]

Full story: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/world/asia/thai-students-find-government-ally-in-push-to-relax-school-regimentation.html

-- The New York Times 2013-05-29

[JetsetBkk]

Could do with a bit more of that discipline in the West.

[Jingthing]

Could do with a bit more of that discipline in the West.

I don't agree. That's what the west has got. Individualism. There are costs but also great benefits. Hard to have it both ways.

[Scott]

In the west the students could do with a little bit more structure to their school day and activities, they need to be taught a little bit more discipline that leads to self-discipline. They do not need more punishment.

I work in a school in Thailand and I see the effects of this enforced deference. It hasn't in the past produced a lot of positive results and it won't in the future. It certainly does nothing to improve education and that is what schools exist to do.

[JetsetBkk]

Could do with a bit more of that discipline in the West.

I don't agree. That's what the west has got. Individualism. There are costs but also great benefits. Hard to have it both ways.

The 'individualism' can come later - after they've got a good education in the 3 R's and a bit more.

[paulrobertlane]

This vice principal is clearly not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Yes we all know it goes on here, but hitting kids has been illegal now for almost 8 years. Admitting it to a US news agency is not the cleverest of things to do.

[Jingthing]

Could do with a bit more of that discipline in the West.

I don't agree. That's what the west has got. Individualism. There are costs but also great benefits. Hard to have it both ways.

The 'individualism' can come later - after they've got a good education in the 3 R's and a bit more.

There is no "later" when you've already crushed children's souls.

[paulrobertlane]

Classic example of the intelligence levels of the average director.

Yes al know beatings go on but it has been illegal now for almost 8 years. Openly admitting they flout the law to a US news agency is hardly going to endear himself to the MoE or OBEC.

[NeverSure]

In the west the students could do with a little bit more structure to their school day and activities, they need to be taught a little bit more discipline that leads to self-discipline. They do not need more punishment.

I work in a school in Thailand and I see the effects of this enforced deference. It hasn't in the past produced a lot of positive results and it won't in the future. It certainly does nothing to improve education and that is what schools exist to do.

Scott, I was in a village school in Isaan for two days in April with a Thai teacher who's a friend. I didn't sense that there was corporal punishment. What I saw was a lack of any discipline. I saw the teachers afraid of upsetting parents. No one can lose face by telling a parent the child is a problem or giving the child a deserving bad grade. The child and the parents would lose face. Everyone passes. Kids talk in class like it's a party.

They asked me to give a couple of English lessons because they don't have an NES and a Thai teaches English. The weakness is that they don't know how the words sound. I was afraid for my visa but did it anyway. It was fun and the kids settled right down for the farang and paid attention. I don't know how to teach so I just started picking things up and saying their names. They had a variety of colored pencils so I picked some up and got them to say pencil, and then I got them to say the colors. I wrote the words on a chalkboard because they know the written words pretty well. They got the association and tried to say the words. Again, I have no EFL training at all so I winged it. None.

But I was entertainment. It was still a party. We were playing a game. Everything is a game.

I was astounded at the lack of respect for the other teachers.

Just my 2 cents, and I really liked what you said. It's true all over the world for kids and doesn't break their spirit, I think. I really like kids.

[JetsetBkk]

Could do with a bit more of that discipline in the West.

I don't agree. That's what the west has got. Individualism. There are costs but also great benefits. Hard to have it both ways.

The 'individualism' can come later - after they've got a good education in the 3 R's and a bit more.

There is no "later" when you've already crushed children's souls.

My comment was "Could do with a bit more of that discipline in the West."

I don't believe any souls are being crushed in the West. More like the teachers' souls are being crushed by the 'students'.

[Ianatlarge]

Me, strong dislike of authoritarianism, be it in school or in the community. "Discipline" is not teaching. Teachers need to inspire and lead, generate interest, foster education—that sort of thing. And, yes, that can be done. And yes, I have taught, at several levels of education, in Australia. It is easy to be an authoritarian teacher, certainly if you are a bad or lazy teacher, and then blame the students for acting poorly and not learning. Authoritative schools reflect an authoritative society, dull, unimaginative, oppressive, and corrupt.

So, put a big tick in the NO box for the current Thai edu system. Students need to challenge, be provocative, think of new things, and be creative.

[Scott]

It's a difficult topic and even more difficult to tackle in real life. Schools provide an eduction, but they also are the vehicle for building the citizens of a country and instilling the culture of the country. It's a big task to fulfill both roles because they sometimes conflict.

I've seen both types of schools, Neversure, but in general, those that are overly strict are overly strict outside the actual learning environment. Kids aren't allowed into class until some buzzes their hair off, or checks their fingernails etc. Once in the classroom, everyone relaxes and has a nice little chit chat with their friends.

Corporal punishment is against the law, but it is still widely used. The instances are decreasing. I am glad you were at a school that doesn't use it. Even if a school is strict and disciplined, it does not require a stick to do so.

In general, my observation is that excessive discipline is used in schools that really don't have a lot to offer educationally--can't prove it, but it's just an observation.

[chonabot]

I had a real conflict of interest at my previous school in Isaan.

It was a large Government high school and there are about 5000 students.

My son was in M3, he is half Thai and half British, although he looks more European.

It was one of the last days of the term and we did a little skit for the entire school.

It went down very well and we left the stage. I then noticed one of the Thai teachers, a real bully, giving my son the evil eye.

My son had not worn the school belt and this was the reason for his fury.

The teacher approached my boy and let rip with a barrage of Thai words.

Essentially he was not happy that the belt was not worn, he then produced the small but painful stick that is used to discipline naughty kids.

I stepped in and pretty much let have both barrels, removed the stick and threw it across the floor.

He looked furious and started shouting 'Farang' this and 'Farang' that.

The director stepped in and that pretty much diffused the event.

But if he had struck my son, I would have decked the old bugger, whether I would have been fired or not, we will never know.

He was renowned for being over enthusiastic with the stick and is allowed this 'luxury' due to his age.

A real live true story

[rosst]

Yes, the chances of giving the students a decent education is enhanced when there is a structure that prevents disruptive behaviour.

Students in Australia know all their rights and none of their responsibilities. When they are good pat them on the head and when they are bad discipline them. Bring it on.

[traveler103]

I have worked for 6 years at a Thai Government Temple School teaching English to grades 3 through 6. I have also worked for 4 years at a University in Pathuthani. 95% of the University students regularly come to class 30 minutes to an hour late. All of the Thai teachers complain but seem unwilling and unable to change this. Students regulary play facebook during the classes. I blame the teachers for allowing this to continue and not enforcing rules. Apparently, many of these students carry this poor work ethic into their jobs as evidenced by several people in management that I have spoken to.

I believe the problem starts in the lower grades. Students freely walk around in the classroom talking and playing with their friends. The teachers don't seem to care. Copying homework is standard procedure if they even do the homework.

I have seen teachers use a wooden stick or tree branch to hit the children but they do not inflict pain but it is used for the student to loose face. I see nothing wrong with enforcing hair cuts. I also think it is good that teachers check the students fingernails as they are trying to promote hygiene which unfortunately is not taught in their homes. Thailand is certainly trying to better their education system but not doing very well. At the University, they delayed paying the Teachers last semester by 3 months as they didn't have the money. They then prorated the pay based upon the number of students in the class. This was after telling teachers how much they would be paid. This semester, I was asked to teach 2 University courses of a four hour duration but the University would only pay for 3 hours. I refused. Thai schools do not pay based upon past success. It goes to a core belief that "it doesn't matter", nothing matters. I am not bitter or willing to put Thais down because of this situation. There is a lot I love about Thailand and Thai people. I still believe in the expression: "are you part of the problem or part of the solution?". Rather than being a constant complainer, I believe it is better to try to look for solutions.

Western Teachers need to show good work ethic by example. I agree with those that encourage motivation and in the long run, if Westerners can try to be patient eventually they will be respected and Thais will try to copy their style. Works for me!

Edited May 29, 2013 by traveler103

[ccarbaugh]

I was a teacher in an inner-city school

in the San Francisco Bay Area. I have

taught briefly here in Thailand as well.

The world over- "education" needs to

evolve away from the current paradigm

of being a competitive setting training

kids to pass an examination only to become

a 40-year office minion.

[Scott]

Traveler, I have no problem with haircuts or clean fingernails, but it has to do with how it is enforced. At one time, it was exam week and the foreign teachers were giving their exams. The whole exam schedule in the morning was thrown into disarray when an administrator decided to check the length of all the boys' hair.

The afternoon schedule was messed up by, fingernail inspection and cutting.

The message was not about hair or fingernails, it was about who is in charge and what is important and it certainly wasn't education.

[traveler103]

Traveler, I have no problem with haircuts or clean fingernails, but it has to do with how it is enforced. At one time, it was exam week and the foreign teachers were giving their exams. The whole exam schedule in the morning was thrown into disarray when an administrator decided to check the length of all the boys' hair.

The afternoon schedule was messed up by, fingernail inspection and cutting.

The message was not about hair or fingernails, it was about who is in charge and what is important and it certainly wasn't education.

Scott: Point well taken and I agree!

[Dibbler]

If you pay teachers peanuts like they do in government schools, sometimes you will get the wrong kind of people teaching your kids (individuals with low IQ that would fail higher level teacher training courses, control freaks, insecurity, and other personality disorders). At least in Bangkok there are reasonable alternatives to government schools that aren't that expensive, like the Satit demonstration schools - Thai schools with bilingual/ international programmes.

[Halion]

The first thing to do it to take the word military out of the equation as this country has little to be proud of in it's military or military traditions.

.

A better word would be disiplined and perhaps structured which in itself is a good thing for children to learn.

We live in societies which have to have rules in order to survive, however, you can expect zero input from Thai parents who abdicate their parental responsibilities and further burden the education system. Here in Thailand everthing that goes wrong is someone else's fault.

IMO schools should have dress codes, and behaviour protocols which should be sensibly enforced with pertinent punishment for recalcitrance. Parents should be held responsible for the behaviour of their siblings, however, this is a country where no one is prepared or even equipted to take accountability or personal responsibility for anything.

There is a tremendous amount of work needed within the Thai educational system however that is meerley the effect and not the cause. Much work has to be done within the social systems to evolve a nation where people take personal responsibilities and develop a moral and social conscience opposite their actions.

[paulmw]

If you pay teachers peanuts like they do in government schools, sometimes you will get the wrong kind of people teaching your kids (individuals with low IQ that would fail higher level teacher training courses, control freaks, insecurity, and other personality disorders). At least in Bangkok there are reasonable alternatives to government schools that aren't that expensive, like the Satit demonstration schools - Thai schools with bilingual/ international programmes.

Thai teachers are well paid married to one thats how I know, so that excuse is a non starter.

[NoshowJones]

Could do with a bit more of that discipline in the West.

I don't agree. That's what the west has got. Individualism. There are costs but also great benefits. Hard to have it both ways.

Pity help any school in Scotland who tried any of that nonsense with my kids.

[bangon04]

"Vestiges of Military Rule"

like military style uniforms for teachers, saluting the army flag every morning at 8 am. Singing the army anthem every morning at 8, haircuts which would not look out of place on US marine recruits (but then again....)

Wouldn't it be nice if the schools would have the Royal Anthem instead, swear allegiance to the King, and the teachers would look and feel like mentors instead of guards?

[chonabot]

"Vestiges of Military Rule"

Wouldn't it be nice if the schools would have the Royal Anthem instead, swear allegiance to the King, and the teachers would look and feel like mentors instead of guards?

Most of them do , mine did anyway....

[fire and ice]

In general "teaching" discipline is beneficial to the recipient only as much as it invokes self-discipline.

The idea of discipline in order to create obedience is the harmful form (or more accurately the harmful by-prodcut).

In practice any model attempting to "teach" discipline will effect both ones self-discipline and level of obedience, but how much of one and how much of the other is the key to it.

But a lot of what is mentioned in the article as occurring at Thai schools is all about swaying obedience not self-discipline. Just look at the results:- Thailand is a nation of mostly very very lazy people with relatively few having any self-determination.

Edited May 29, 2013 by fire and ice

[khaowong1]

The first thing to do it to take the word military out of the equation as this country has little to be proud of in it's military or military traditions.

.

A better word would be disiplined and perhaps structured which in itself is a good thing for children to learn.

We live in societies which have to have rules in order to survive, however, you can expect zero input from Thai parents who abdicate their parental responsibilities and further burden the education system. Here in Thailand everthing that goes wrong is someone else's fault.

IMO schools should have dress codes, and behaviour protocols which should be sensibly enforced with pertinent punishment for recalcitrance. Parents should be held responsible for the behaviour of their siblings, however, this is a country where no one is prepared or even equipted to take accountability or personal responsibility for anything.

There is a tremendous amount of work needed within the Thai educational system however that is meerley the effect and not the cause. Much work has to be done within the social systems to evolve a nation where people take personal responsibilities and develop a moral and social conscience opposite their actions.

Ah Halion, there's the rub. Thailand really thinks they are a military power to be reckoned with.. never mind the fact that they haven't been in a military fight with anyone since Burma in the 1700's. You see all the teachers wearing some kind of military style uniform. Most politicians including the PM wearing some kind of military style uniform, with all the ribbons, even though they have never been in the military. Doesn't that strike you as kind of odd?

[bangon04]

The first thing to do it to take the word military out of the equation as this country has little to be proud of in it's military or military traditions.

.

A better word would be disiplined and perhaps structured which in itself is a good thing for children to learn.

We live in societies which have to have rules in order to survive, however, you can expect zero input from Thai parents who abdicate their parental responsibilities and further burden the education system. Here in Thailand everthing that goes wrong is someone else's fault.

IMO schools should have dress codes, and behaviour protocols which should be sensibly enforced with pertinent punishment for recalcitrance. Parents should be held responsible for the behaviour of their siblings, however, this is a country where no one is prepared or even equipted to take accountability or personal responsibility for anything.

There is a tremendous amount of work needed within the Thai educational system however that is meerley the effect and not the cause. Much work has to be done within the social systems to evolve a nation where people take personal responsibilities and develop a moral and social conscience opposite their actions.

Ah Halion, there's the rub. Thailand really thinks they are a military power to be reckoned with.. never mind the fact that they haven't been in a military fight with anyone since Burma in the 1700's. You see all the teachers wearing some kind of military style uniform. Most politicians including the PM wearing some kind of military style uniform, with all the ribbons, even though they have never been in the military. Doesn't that strike you as kind of odd?

Most civil servants are required to wear uniform for special occasions. And the ribbons/medals are awarded for some quite curious achievements.....

[Bcgardener]

When we moved to Thailand my daughter was about 10 and had been educated at a private school in Australia that made an effort to get children to question things, in particular what was taught in the classroom. We thought we would do the right thing and enrol her in a bilingual school to learn Thai. Most of the teachers were Thai and at our first teacher parent meeting I was told that she was a bright girl but disruptive in class because she asked too many questions. My one and only experience of Thai education. She was quickly moved to an international school with farang teachers who encouraged this.

I now see the results of this attitude in my Thai staff, virtually non existent initiative and a total fear of questioning anything even if they can see it could be wrong.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[TackyToo]

...and “not cause any trouble.”

For me it's quite clear who is causing the trouble...

[fotog]

This is a timely topic for me as I started this discussion on May 21, 2013:

At What Age Should A Child Start Going To School?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/641124-at-what-age-should-a-child-start-going-to-school/

I went to Thai funeral cremation today and a nanny who lives in our building and was on our trip told my wife that her employer just pulled their daughter out of a Hi-So high $$ preschool because she comes home swearing now and spitting at her parents. She is about 2 1/2 and started when she was 2 years old.