Surrounded By "enemy" Nationals On A Baht Bus; Confused As To Proper Etiquette

[David48]

There are no issues. You have just told us that you were an unsociable coward. The rest is just spin.

Hit - Nail - Head ...

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[Jingthing]

There are no issues. You have just told us that you were an unsociable coward. The rest is just spin.

Hit - Nail - Head ...

.

I felt a bad feeling about the situation. I responded in a way that made sense to me at that time yes with self preservation in mind. If you choose to harshly judge me, I can accept that. I think acting the MACHO MAN just for the sake of male pride is TOTAL IDIOCY.

As far as being unsociable, I don't feel there is any obligation to party with random drunken strangers on a baht bus if you aren't in the mood, you don't particularly LIKE them for ANY reasons, and/or you perceive potential danger from the group.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Jingthing

[David48]

There are no issues. You have just told us that you were an unsociable coward. The rest is just spin.

Hit - Nail - Head ...

.

I felt a bad feeling about the situation. I responded in a way that made sense to me at that time yes with self preservation in mind. If you choose to harshly judge me, I can accept that.

You see JT ... here's the Rub ... from your reply above ...

"I felt a bad feeling about the situation" ... we can understand that.

"I responded in a way that made sense to me at that time" ... not the way I would have responded, I would have simply stepped off the Bus ... but I wasn't there at the time, and every situation is different. You saw the call, you made the call ... understandable.

"self preservation in mind." ... self preservation is always on my mind.

"If you choose to harshly judge me, I can accept that." ... here's the rub ... you are putting a spin on what I wrote ... words in my mouth. That you are a master of.

I can't speak on others behalf, but I'm not judging you harshly on your actions on the 'Baht Bus' ... you encountered a difficult situation ... fair enough.

But to come back to the Forum with the partial headline of "surrounded by enemy nationals on a baht bus" is just pure spin ... 100% ... no wiggle room out of that fact JT.

And that's probably where a lot of animosity through the thread has come from.

Actually, the story could have been told in so many ways ... just that you decided to play the 'victim' ... sad really.

BTW ... out of respect for my post ... if you wish to reply to it ... reply to the WHOLE of the post and please don't cherry pick one small sentence and then go on and on.

Mate, some of the stuff you write about is comedy gold ... TV Gold ... just stop playing the victim every time.

.

Edited June 3, 2013 by David48

[Jingthing]

Your demand is noted and denied. How I choose to use snippets is purely my business, and none of yours. Use of snippets is totally Kosher on this forum, responding to SELECTED parts of posts, unless there was an obvious malicious intent to radically change the meaning. If you think a use of snippets has maliciously altered the meaning of a post of yours, you may use report.

...BTW ... out of respect for my post ... if you wish to reply to it ... reply to the WHOLE of the post and please don't cherry pick one small sentence and then go on and on.

...

Edited June 3, 2013 by Jingthing

[David48]

Your demand is noted and denied. How I choose to use snippets is purely my business, and none of yours. If you think a use of snippets has maliciously altered the meaning of a post of yours, you may use report.

...BTW ... out of respect for my post ... if you wish to reply to it ... reply to the WHOLE of the post and please don't cherry pick one small sentence and then go on and on.

...

... just a record before it's edited.

(Whole post quoted)

[Jingthing]

On the overblown kerfuffle about the use of the term enemy nationals with the "enemy" in quotes, I will comment about that.

Enemy nationals is an established LEGAL term for CIVILIAN people of nationalities when different nations are at war.

It is a very different thing than enemy combatants.

While I am certain Iran and the USA are engaged in a long standing SOFT WAR, it is a stretch to use the term enemy nationals to describe civilians from countries not currently engaged in ACTIVE war.

So for example if the USA and Iran were in active war, Iranians civilians in the US would be enemy nationals in the USA and American civilians in Iran would be enemy nationals in Iran.

While in that case Americans and Iranians in Thailand would probably not technically be enemy nationals as they are in another country, it would be understandable if the nationals upon meeting felt some caution on encountering people who WOULD be considered enemy nationals in their home countries.

So the use of enemy nationals in the context of a soft war outside the conflicting countries borders is indeed rather non-standard.

I reckon I had a sense of that which is the REASON I put "enemy" in quotes -- get it?

That said, all it was was HEADLINE SHORTHAND, in which the precise issues were well described in the OP.

As a headline writer for threads thaivisa, I don't claim to feel the need to adopt the standards of the finest newspapers in the world. The idea is to communicate the gist of the story and yes hopefully to attract the interest of readers.

So yes the headline here was more New York Post than New York Times, but news flash for ya'll thaivisa ain't EITHER!

Bounteous clarification about the actual specifics of the story is to be found here.

Some people seemed to want to make this thread about their narrow offense at a phrase of headline shorthand that was fully clarified in the thread. That seems kind of silly.

In retrospect, yes I could have written the heading in other ways. For example:

Lone American Surrounded By a Crowd of Drunken Iranians On A Baht Bus; Confused As To Proper Etiquette

If written that way, which it could have, still the political sensitivity of such a scene would be strongly IMPLIED rather than explicit. Most readers would have taken the clue, aha, Americans-Iranians, these are countries in a state of CONFLICT.

Now if I had wanted to CASTRATE the topic headline I could have written:

Lone Rider Surrounded By a Crowd of Drunks On A Baht Bus; Confused As To Proper Etiquette

I wouldn't have done that because that headline gives NO CLUE whatsoever at the focus of the actual topic which does heavily focus on the potential POLITICAL sensitivities of nationals from nations in conflict meeting in Pattaya.

Some posters have suggested that the only legit part of this topic OK to talk about is the castrated topic, without any awareness of the potential political implications. I categorically reject that. Others may want to start a thread about general drunks on baht buses, it can be a real problem, but that was NOT the topic of this thread.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jiu-Jitsu]

You don't have any friends do you?

[blackman]

You don't have any friends do you?

who needs 'em

friends are overated

[simple1]

This topic reminds me of an incident in London years ago. I was drinking with a Canadian friend in a pub in West London. A group of black Londoners were standing next to us; one of them asked my friend if he was American. He said "no, Canadian". The guy said "don't believe you" and glassed him.

Edited June 4, 2013 by simple1

[Jingthing]

This topic reminds me of an incident in London years ago. I was drinking with a Canadian friend in a pub in West London. A group of black Londoners were standing next to us; one of them asked my friend if he was American. He said "no, Canadian". The guy said "don't believe you" and glassed him.

Yes, the Canadian ploy may well be played out. It is too obvious. It is well known Americans sometimes resort to it. Here's hoping not too many Americans adopt the Belizian gambit. Yah Mon!

Edited June 4, 2013 by Jingthing

[Morakot]

Is this thread about Songthaew a "two-row" pick up? Or is a Baht Bus something else?

Edited June 4, 2013 by Morakot

[StreetCowboy]

Is this thread about Songthaew a "two-row" pick up? Or is a Baht Bus something else?

I think the bus was not key to the story. It could've been a Routemaster, or a coach from Alexanders of Falkirk or even a Dennis Dart. It was a mere backdrop to the unfolding drama.

[Jingthing]

Edited June 4, 2013 by Jingthing

[Morakot]

Yes, I gathered this. But I still don't really know what the actual backdrop is in the countless threads by JT that feature a "Baht Bus". What is this beast?

Edit: I see! Thanks JT. Finally it's all coming together.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Morakot

[Daewoo]

Ok I admit I only read to page 3, 'cause reading to page 19 on an iPhone might make me look towards martyrdom.

I've worked with scores of Iranians. I was working for a Chinese company who of course ignored any embargoes and see embargoes only as assistance from The West. Through that Iranians had good knowledge of that company's technology, and became the go to source for cheap labour with good English (which the Chinese lacked).

Without exception every single one of them was a great guy, and the one girl was smoking hot).

On a night out, some drank a little, some drank not a lot, and one not at all... They were happy to spend the night talking about politics, on which none of them could agree, and they were all on the same side...

Chances are, half the group sees Merica as an ally, and hope for the day the US helps overthrow their I democratically extend government... If they are outside Iran, they are unlikely to be supporters...

IMHO you missed a great opportunity to learn about their country.

They are Persian, not Arab, which again IMHO makes them unlikely to turn violent...

[Jingthing]

I already know about their country.

If you had read the thread, you'd know that.

Instead back to the knee jerk assumptions.

Its hilarious how so many people stereotype all Americans as being clueless.

Oh yes another lecture on how Iranians are not Arabs to someone who never thought they were in the first place!

I didn't miss any opportunity. If I want to talk to some SOBER Iranians in a COMFORTABLE setting, I can be there in 20 minutes. Anytime.

Yes I already know that MOST Iranians in town are friendly to Americans. Anyone who READ THE THREAD would know that already.

The situation described was not comfortable. It was a PRESSURE situation and again there was NO WAY I could have known the politics of this particular group of drunken Iranians. Yeah, I missed an opportunity alright. An opportunity for risking getting my ass kicked!

I do NOT agree ALL Iranians in Pattaya are friendly to Americans though. Do you think the terrorist Iranians who partied in South Pattaya before their botched bombing in Bangkok were friendly towards Americans? A certain percentage are extremely HOSTILE and being surrounded by a large group of DRUNK ones is not the time you want to learn that.

Also to be clear, I am not saying that Iranians don't have their REASONS to be hostile to Americans. I am well aware of the history between Iran and the USA and why the Shah was hated by so many. The current sanctions are unfortunately hurting poor Iranians the most. It's not a super effective political weapon in that way. My understanding is that mostly the Iranian government is being blamed for the economic pain, but not entirely.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Jingthing

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I do NOT agree ALL Iranians in Pattaya are friendly to Americans though. Do you think the terrorist Iranians who partied in South Pattaya before their botch bombing in Bangkok were friendly towards Americans? A certain percentage are extremely HOSTILE and being surrounded by a large group of DRUNK ones is not the time you want to learn that.

Those dudes were there because their government sent them to kill some Israeli diplomats, in these on-going tit-for-tat pot shots those governments engage in with each other.

But anyway, I guess the logic here is that if out of thousands of tourists some Iran government thugs visit, that means they're all no good? Can think of a couple other nationalities that this could also apply to in that case.

And here we go again hiding behind the DRUNK thing. So DRUNK Iranians are worse than DRUNK British guys? (Or any other nationality)

Edited June 4, 2013 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Jingthing]

Not at all! Again, Iranians visiting Pattaya are a DIVERSE crowd. People are being VERY FOOLISH if they imagine they can know the politics of any particular Iranians they encounter in Pattaya. The same could be said about Americans you might meet here. We are DIVERSE politically.

I have ALREADY been crystal clear that I perceive the majority of Iranians here as being friendly towards random GENERIC American people.

However, I am not a GENERIC American. I am also gay, Jewish, pro sanctions, and VERY SUPPORTIVE of the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. The Iranian regime wants to crush the Jewish state, and I think its very naive to assume that position isn't quite popular in Iran, even among anti-regime Iranians. I also know the vast majority of Iranians are supportive of the regime's nuclear program, yes, even the anti-regime ones. So my potential political discussions with Iranians in this country need to be taken in that context. Its VERY naive to think the majority of Iranians here would be so friendly to me if they really knew me.

I perceived the drunken crowd on the bus would likely have been welcoming to a random generic APOLITICAL American. But they also wanted some PABLUM political speech about the political tensions between our countries; I could tell that by the way they respond to the Brit. I just wasn't up to such a BS act that I do not believe on that particular evening.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Jingthing

[David48]

.

JT ... given the 16 pages of heart felt advice, given the same situation to happen to a fellow member

in roughly the same position you found yourself ... what advice would you give them?

If 'surrounded by enemy nationals on a songthaew', what, do you advise is

'the proper etiquette' to be followed?

.

[Naam]

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JT ... given the 16 pages of heart felt advice, given the same situation to happen to a fellow member

in roughly the same position you found yourself ... what advice would you give them?

If 'surrounded by enemy nationals on a songthaew', what, do you advise is

'the proper etiquette' to be followed?

.

singing the "enemy's" national anthem would be a good start to make friends.

[Jingthing]

1. Lie about your nationality (Could be risky for poor liars or if people know too much about what you lied about)

2. Feel the politics of the crowd and feed them what you think will please them (if you feel up to pulling that off)

3. Zone out like I did (hey, it worked)

4. Get off the bus if you feel the situation is likely to escalate

Another question, to those who insist I should have come out as American; would you give the same moralistic lecture to a lone ISRAELI in the same situation? I wouldn't.

I don't see a huge difference between Israelis and Americans with regard to Iran. Both countries are engaged in a long standing soft war with Iran. A difference in Israel is they are closer to the Iranian PROXIES so the war is not quite as SOFT as the American situation for them.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Jingthing

[Asiantravel]

Not at all! Again, Iranians visiting Pattaya are a DIVERSE crowd. People are being VERY FOOLISH if they imagine they can know the politics of any particular Iranians they encounter in Pattaya. The same could be said about Americans you might meet here. We are DIVERSE politically.

I have ALREADY been crystal clear that I perceive the majority of Iranians here as being friendly towards random GENERIC American people.

However, I am not a GENERIC American. I am also gay, Jewish, pro sanctions, and VERY SUPPORTIVE of the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state. The Iranian regime wants to crush the Jewish state, and I think its very naive to assume that position isn't quite popular in Iran, even among anti-regime Iranians. I also know the vast majority of Iranians are supportive of the regime's nuclear program, yes, even the anti-regime ones. So my potential political discussions with Iranians in this country need to be taken in that context. Its VERY naive to think the majority of Iranians here would be so friendly to me if they really knew me.

I perceived the drunken crowd on the bus would likely have been welcoming to a random generic APOLITICAL American. But they also wanted some PABLUM political speech about the political tensions between our countries; I could tell that by the way they respond to the Brit. I just wasn't up to such a BS act that I do not believe on that particular evening.

And what about Muslim Chechnyans ? Those Russians that so often sit next to you on your bus ride may

not be the apolitical Muscovites that you assume they are?

They could equally well have a similar kind of " sentiment " to Iranians?

Would you make a big deal out of that also?

[David48]

1. Lie about your nationality (Could be risky to poor liars or if people know too much about what you lied about)

2. Feel the politics of the crowd and feed them what you think will please them (if you feel up to pulling that off)

3. Zone out like I did (hey, it worked)

4. Get off the bus if you feel the situation is likely to escalate

I could live with that.

Favouring suggestion #4, but could certainly live with the 3rd option.

Unless I'm drunk also, I find it difficult to converse with guys with a skin full, so #2 would be difficult.

#1 doesn't apply to me ... but can see how it is an issue for you.

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[David48]

.

JT ... given the 16 pages of heart felt advice, given the same situation to happen to a fellow member

in roughly the same position you found yourself ... what advice would you give them?

If 'surrounded by enemy nationals on a songthaew', what, do you advise is

'the proper etiquette' to be followed?

.

singing the "enemy's" national anthem would be a good start to make friends.

Well, that certainly would be an ice-breaker ... even a clincher.

Linguistically I am handicapped and restricted to saying 'cheers' in roughly 10 languages.

My favourite is the Finnish phrase for cheers ... 'geee pissst' ... I joke you not!

It's memorable if nothing else ...

.

[Jingthing]

The USA and Russia are not currently in conflict, soft war or hard. They are not friends, but not enemies. The topic is about nationals from countries in some kind of level of war.

As far as Muslim Chechnyans, I really haven't noticed many people identifiable as such in town, doesn't mean they aren't here but if they are they are very invisible compared to Iranians here. I don't feel that Muslim Chechnyans are in a state of conflict with the USA but they are in such a state with Russia. I don't consider the "Boston Bomber" incident as any kind of indication that there is conflict developing either. That's more a case of immigrants to America becoming self radicalized.

So in the context of this thread, you might imagine a lone Russian national being surrounded by a large crowd of drunken Chechnyans. Somehow I doubt that has EVER happened in Pattaya, but that would be some kind of equivalent situation.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Jingthing

[StreetCowboy]

.

JT ... given the 16 pages of heart felt advice, given the same situation to happen to a fellow member

in roughly the same position you found yourself ... what advice would you give them?

If 'surrounded by enemy nationals on a songthaew', what, do you advise is

'the proper etiquette' to be followed?

.

singing the "enemy's" national anthem would be a good start to make friends.

It didn't work very well at Hampden; Same as the "talking in their own language"; it's so easy to make an appalling faux pas in a foreign language, particularly if you get the accent right and the pronunciation wrong

[blackman]

Is this thread about Songthaew a "two-row" pick up? Or is a Baht Bus something else?

same same

[chuckd]

If asked, my answer will always be...American.

If the questioner doesn't like it, tough shit.

Macho man! You can't imagine a scenario where doing so would be foolhardy?

Not really. Having spent much of my adult life living in the Middle East, I find a few drunken Iranians nothing to be really concerned about.

A chance encounter with them for a brief period of time is hardly cause for concern. I lived in Iran for 5 years up and during the Iranian revolution, and things were decidedly dicey during the revolution.

I didn't shy away from my American citizenship then nor would I do so now. Obviously YMMV.

[Jingthing]

If asked, my answer will always be...American.

If the questioner doesn't like it, tough shit.

Macho man! You can't imagine a scenario where doing so would be foolhardy?

Not really. Having spent much of my adult life living in the Middle East, I find a few drunken Iranians nothing to be really concerned about.

A chance encounter with them for a brief period of time is hardly cause for concern. I lived in Iran for 5 years up and during the Iranian revolution, and things were decidedly dicey during the revolution.

I didn't shy away from my American citizenship then nor would I do so now. Obviously YMMV.

A few things.

As you lived in Iran, OBVIOUSLY you would have a better knowledge and informed sense about the politics of a particular group of drunken Iranians you might encounter than someone like me who hasn't.

Secondly, the story isn't about a FEW drunken Iranians. What's a few? 2 or 3?

It is about a bus packed with them with me closely wedged among them.

Maybe this is disrespectful but even with your experience I can't really seriously BELIEVE that you would be unable to imagine ANY scenario where you would not be comfortable being known to be American. Maybe you lack a good imagination. If that's really true, can you imagine ANY scenario where you would not be comfortable being known to be Israeli if you were Israeli? Because the thread isn't only about USA-Iran; its about the general topic of nationals from nations in conflict encountering each other.

The question isn't about being PROUD to be American or not proud (or whatever the nationality). It's about situations where people may just be better off not having their nationality revealed.

I do believe you that in the scenario I described, that is not a scenario that would have been a concern for YOU. Maybe if I had lived YOUR life it would not have been a concern for me, but we only get to live in the ONE skin.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Jingthing

[Tywais]

And to summarize the topic to date.