Wanted: Help Sitting In Lotus Posture...

[wixcm]

Hi, i met a guy who told me about a masseuse who was physically super fit and knew everything about the human body and was an ex Muay Thai champion on Koh Phagnan. Like me, he had trouble sitting in the Lotus position for meditation or when at Thai peoples houses or at temples for example. He told me he had 3 massages in a week with this woman and he since had no problems sitting in that position at all.

I am wondering if anyone knows or a professional masseuse or anyone qualified in Chiang Mai who might be able to help me?

[khaowong1]

If you find this masseuse, let me know.. I can't sit that way either.. I've only met a few Americans that can.

[eden8]

woah... i just google it..

it doesn't seem easy to sit in Lotus Posture position...

[Dukgae]

it's all to with your hip flexors and your knees - try sitting on a small bolster or cushion so you're about 2-3 inches off the ground, so your knees can be lower than your hips and don't worry about crossing your feet on top of your thighs, that bit's for experts. I've been doing yoga for 6 months and still can't do a full lotus.

[rawhod]

From my observations, Thai knees appear to be inherently different than western knees. They seem to be slightly elongated thereby allowing the lower leg to bend back on itself easily. I imagine this is also because they sit in a lotus position from being very young.

I doubt very much that a course of massage could achieve the same ability.

[MrBrad]

A few years ago I had a few massage sessions with Sinchai Sukparsert. A master massage therapist and teacher, this old gentleman gives the best massage in Chiang Mai. He works on your muscles until they are able to move the way they were meant to. You can probably get a cheaper treatment elsewhere, but certainly this is the best place to go. Plan on spending about 500 baht per visit. Phone 086-924-3210.

Coordinates: 18°45'31"N 98°59'22"E in the Pa Daet ป่าแดด area south of town. http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=18.758630&lon=98.989472&z=19&m=b

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun WixCM,

It's your sacred right to do what you want with this physical body; I hope my comments here are not perceived as patronizing in any way.

In Thailand, in my experience, I seldom see even Monks sitting full-lotus (padmasana). In my experience, inside and outside Thailand, I have rarely seen a "westerner" that could, with comfort, attain, and stay in, the extreme full-lotus where the soles of both feet are "turned up," in a plane parallel to the ground.

I am convinced that my forcing this body into full-lotus, and other "extreme" hatha yoga practices, as well as athletic over-use without proper warm-up, when the body was in the 20~30 years' age range, and intoxicated by its own hormones, were the causes, as the body aged, of the right-hip problem that ultimately required a hip-replacement ... but, there may well have been a genetic component to this: both my paternal, and great-paternal, human gene-donors had right-hip problems in older age. And, it is less common, for "western" humans, to have severe degeneration of one, not both, hip-joints.

Depending on age, body-type, body-fat, history of diet, and exercise, possibly genetic heritage, you may be taking a risk by forcing yourself into any asana (seated posture), ignoring pain and discomfort.

imho what you are doing with your mind is more important than what you are doing with your body, even though, at some level, outside "normal," ego-bound, consciousness, they are mutually dependent realities ... said the frog to the Princess.

In Theravadan Buddhism, northern (Lanna) images of the Buddha are frequently in the asana some call the half-lotus (which Carol Stratton describes as virasana in "The Buddha Images of northern Thailand"). Yes, there are many Buddha images in full lotus; most often with the hands in samadhi mudra (folded,in the lap, right-hand over left), and typically these are "Phra na prokh," a reference to the Buddha under the protecting unfolded hood of the many-headed Muchalinda, King of the Nagas, at the moment he is about to "call the earth to witness" his complete enlightenment (nibbana), touching the earth with his right hand finger in the gesture/mudra bhumisparsa (Sanskrit: maravijaya: victory over Mara).

The first Theravadan Buddha images in northern Thailand circa 14th. century CE (extremely rare) show the visual influences of Sinhalese (Sri Lankan) iconography, where the distance between the knees, in half-lotus, is proportionally very wide in relation the height of the torso, and head, a very "relaxed" looking posture.

But, please, don't listen to this flapping head, talk to your meditation, yoga, Buddhist, teacher(s), and ask their advice about posture while sitting. Allow your body to listen to you, and versa-vice

And, who cares what "others" think ... said the only lamb who did not plunge over the cliff with the rest of the stampeding flock.

~o:37;

[Smalls]

Here's 2 cents from a guy who has done martial arts and meditation for a long time.

Sitting in full lotus is a great thing to aspire to - as is increasing flexibility in general. There are no real differences in the composition of the knees or hip flexors of Thai people - it's their culture that keeps them flexible and supple. Sitting in chairs is very unnatural and hinders hip flexibility. Wearing shoes with pronounced heals does the same for knee health and tendon flexibility. By sitting on the floor and low stools, Asian cultures have managed to retain good posture and, as a result, overall good structural health.

Daily stretching and practice will get you to sitting comfortably in full lotus - that is daily, focused efforts. 15-45 minutes a few times a week is unfortunately not enough. I believe that if you make stretching a 30 min/day practice everyday, you can achieve this goal (barring any serious injuries that might impede it.)

Massages definitely help to increase flexibility. Anecdotal as it is, a friend of mine suffered from very stiff hip flexors. She trained Muay Thai very frequently which did not help. She began seeing a massage therapist in Chiang Mai and is now very nimble and can even sit in full lotus - massages 2-3x/week AND a minimum of 30 minutes of stretching, daily.

My final thought: full lotus is not necessary for meditation. In fact, walking meditations, lying meditations and active, focused acknowledgement of the tasks you perform every day are all effective forms of meditation.

Good luck in your pursuits and I hope everyone who aspires to sit in full lotus is successful - whether for meditation or just as an increased flexibility goal!

[eyecatcher]

I attach an image to show the position.

I think the above points are all valid; for myself I can do this quite easily and the reason maybe as follows:

I am a slim build with long legs so they act as levers quite easily. short legs i feel will not manage to reach onto the opposite thigh.

My legs generally get a good daily work out with sport, walking, running so generally they are flexible and supple. Yoga training can help, but even though i can achieve this position it is NOT comfortable as they is often intense pain and pressure on the knees and the muscles in your thighs.

I think the meditation is just there to hide the pain.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

if only it was so easy to get a massage and have flexibility like that.

Flexibility is complex situation based on many factors

Genetics - such as bone structure and muscle length

Abdomen size - everything is easier with small tight core

Limb thickness. Skinny people with little muscle often have more mobility. Loose weight and see if that helps

Bio chemical tension. Some diets and lifestyles promote more muscle relaxation while others increase scar tissue and lactic acid accumulation which limit muscle pliability.

Massage and structure integration can really help body mechanics.

Just keep at it and experiment to increase mobility

This guy is getting popular. Have seen he has been on Good Morning America/View and lots of Podcasts promoting book and website that teaches how to increase mobility with variety of self manipulation techniques like foam rolling and ball mashing etc.

Enjoy the journey

http://www.mobilitywod.com/

[FolkGuitar]

I have no real problem sitting in a full lotus. I'm not particularly thin nor overly stretchy otherwise. I do meditate twice a day for 20-30 minutes, but find absolutely no difference between sitting in a comfortable chair and meditating or sitting in a full lotus. Maybe another 20 years of meditation might show some significant differences, but for the past 10-15, none at all. It's the meditation that does the job, be it sitting, running, tai chi, prayer, or living in a cave. (This is not dealing with the flow of chi... just the mental activity.)

Stitchawl

[Beetlejuice]

Right by the Chiang Mai gate (not to be confused with the Tapae gate) heading towards the airport side, there is this huge specialist medicine massage establishment.

I visited there a few years ago when I had severe back and leg problems and they done wonders for me. Not expensive either, just a little bit more than the regular massage parlours. They speak reasonable English and have private rooms. Just tell the lady what you want and let her do the rest.

Best to go sometime during the middle of the day, because as I remember they don`t close late.

Sorry, cannot remember the name of the place, but it`s on the main road, a blind man couldn`t miss it.

[highonthai]

Is this the place just past the banks and Gas station on the left? Big building?

[Beetlejuice]

Is this the place just past the banks and Gas station on the left? Big building?

Yes.

It`s a big building with a large front entrance and steps leading up to the entrance.

It has a big sign on the building that says massage, in English.

[Phronesis]

Go back to when you were one year old, then live your entire life in a home without chairs, or a table, and eat every meal while sitting on the floor.

Then get back to me on the lotus position and all of this martial arts and secret masseuse mumbo jumbo...

[wooloomooloo]

I've no problem sitting full lotus for hours but makes me flatulent.

Nothing worse than approaching nirvana only to be stirred with an unannounced episode of the bottom burps.

[Babytalk]

A little bit off-topic: If you're sitting on the floor in the presence of a monk, are you even supposed to sit in the Lotus position? Isn't that the same as saying you are the social equal of the monk (which you are not)? Aren't you supposed to sit on the floor with both legs out to the side to show proper respect to the monk? This is what I have been told by my Chiang Mai wife - but she could be wrong, or I might have misunderstood her.

[IsaanUSA]

I can't wait to try this when I get home. I'm thinking it should be very easy.

As a side note, I've heard DDP Yoga (also called YRG (yoga for regular guys)) works great for flexibility. There are some truly inspiring videos on youtube about Diamond Dallas Page's program.

[Puwa]

I have always been able to sit full lotus, but I never gave it much thought. As another poster noted, in vipassana meditation, the particular position of the body is of no significance to the development of mindfulness.

And to the comment that "meditation is just there to hide the pain," I don't think anything could be further from the truth.

[asupeartea]

Sit straight up in front of the supermarket

[Toany]

I am 62 old westerner and not thin by any stretch of the imagination. A couple of years back I spent over six months stretching until I could sit in the lotus position comfortable. But after doing it for about a year I found it gave me knee trouble. Other people also told me that the position can give you knee problems.

It is like many yoga positions that take time for you to achieve. That is the reward for sticking to yoga exercises. It is reward in its self. It does force the body into a good position for meditation.

[heatherbrie]

I'm a certified yoga teacher and while I agree with many of the wise words that have been said so far (and disagree with some, namely that anyone can do lotus, or that it's heathy for anyone), there's one aspect that nobody's raised: whether or not you can do lotus has a lot to do with not only the physical traits mentioned above, but also with the way your hip bone is structured. Some people simply cannot achieve the level of external rotation needed for lotus, ever, because of their bone structure.

My advice is to let go of the end state of the asana (pose) in any type of meditative practice and be where you are -- and the physical changes will happen as they are meant to, or not. The pose is simply another way to explore the mind (and mind/body) -- the point is to be where you are, to bring your presence fully to the pose and experience it, not to get anywhere in particular. There are no end points in yoga or mediation practice, there is no "perfect" form of a pose, because if you show up, do the practice, breathe and are completely, totally present in the moment, you're doing it perfectly. Poses are a means to an end, not the end, so don't worry about getting there -- learn to experience the jouney.

[islandguy]

Some good posts above, thanks. Another factor in sitting in lotus (according to my uni studies) is the degree of inward/outward rotation of the femur. According to my prof, this could vary by up to around 17 degrees (out of the 360 degrees in a circle) depending on the use of the body in childhood, that is if you spend most of your time in a chair, cross legged, squatting, etc. At about 12-14 years of age this is set (as soft tissue finishes changing into bony tissue). While this doesn't sound like much, that difference is multiplied by the length of the leg. Up until recently, most Asians would be at one end of this range and most Westerners at the other end due to their lifestyles. Most Asians I work with also have joints that tend towards hyper mobility as well.

I think the massage place mentioned may be IDI (Institute for Intellectual Development), a place founded to promote and perpetuate traditional Thai healing practices. I am a big fan of an older gentleman who works there, K. Sag, and try to always get some sessions whenever I am in Chiang Mai. Not at all expensive.

[deetrevi]

Hi. I am going to an amazing thai massage therapist. It's is not for the faint of hear however, it's very intense and painful but in my view extremely theraputic. No matter how theraputic, it will not get to lotus posture, if your anatomy cannot support the pose. Her name is Choreung Jaiharn, tc 086 11529892, She speaks very little english. I am a yogi and have practicing advanced poses and teaching yoga for almost 20 years and the sad truth is you may never be able to sit comfortably in full lotus position. Anontomically, we are all different and some people are just not made to do the posture, same with all the yoga postures, they represent directions to move toward not end goals. If you try to force yourself into a posture that the anatomy cannot support, you are risking injury. Instead, start with sukansana, simple crossed legged seating, then move to 1/2 lotus, each side. That may be as far as your anatomy will allow. Most important, take your ego out of the equasion. I learned this the hard way injuring myself.

[bangkapi]

I knew in kindergarten that I couldn't sit in the lotus position.

All of my classmates could, but I could not sit "Indian style" as my teacher called it back then.

Although I became a fast runner and track champion, my body has never allowed me to sit in the lotus style and I envy those who can do it.

[Beats56]

it's all to with your hip flexors and your knees - try sitting on a small bolster or cushion so you're about 2-3 inches off the ground, so your knees can be lower than your hips and don't worry about crossing your feet on top of your thighs, that bit's for experts. I've been doing yoga for 6 months and still can't do a full lotus.

I cant even do the squat like Asians do for very long!

[HerbalEd]

Knowing what you need to do in order to get in lotus position is very easy ... actually doing what you need to do is the hard part.

Simply put ... practice yoga regularly for several to many months (depending upon your age and deterioration) ... esp. the poses that stretch and lengthen the muscles and ligaments of the legs and pelvis.

Now for the hard part .... actually do the above on a regular basis.

You didn't think it was going to be easy, did you?

[wixcm]

wow! some great replies, and very funny ones too... and i agree with a lot of what has been said but i will never know whether i can ever sit in lotus position until i try and give it the full attention it deserves as many of you have said...

My main problem, which i find difficult to overcome is my love of running and cycling. When training for a long distance run some years back, i over trained and damaged my knee and my physiotherapist said i needed to work on stretching my hip flexors and strengthening them and that without regular stretching, the similar vertical leg movement in both running and cycling meant that they would always be tight and also make any horizontal leg movement difficult...

My own research and questioning has lead me to know and use a few stretches and i started yoga approx 1 year ago and although i know i could always do more stretches and put more effort in to the regularity of these stretches, keeping that routine is one of the hardest things as many of you said. I also had a crash on my bicycle and damaged tendons in my wrist which i don't know if will ever heel which affects my yoga practice as a whole but not on working my hip flexor muscles and adductors too...

I guess after hearing this story of massage help i thought i could at least help the process along and if i had a noticeable improvement from the treatment maybe it would further spur me on to up my own practice and further structure my routines...

I am glad this proved a good topic of discussion and some others also found it useful too...i have a few useful contacts there to follow up on too - many thanks everyone.

[IsaanUSA]

Ok, so I ran for a couple miles then tried it. It wasn't very difficult, however I had to lift my leg into position (that's normal, right?)

I woke up this morning, and while still in bed I tried it. Not even close to assuming the position.

Lesson learned : You need to be warmed up first! So perhaps go for a walk first, do a few stretches, and then attempt it.

[wixcm]

sure, you'll be stiff after a run next morning so thats normal.... when you run i recommend warming up just by either walking or slow joggin first and then do some light stretches maybe after a mile or two, but only 5-10 second holds then do your run and do a much bigger and longer stretch afterwards, this way you'll get rid of any lactic acid and won't ache as much when you come to try sitting cross legged next time... and drink plenty of water afterwards which also helps keep away cramps and aches... eating high alkaline foods help too like leafy dark greens especially...