Same Sex Marriage In Thailand, When?

[Sebastianred]

When will Thailand jump on the bandwagon as other countries are doing and allow same sex couples to be allowed to tie the knot and get married?

I am on Facebook quite often and see a lot of young couples both male and female saying on that site, they got engaged with so and so. A male to male couple or a female to female couple.

The only option they told me was to do a religious wedding, but the government does not recognize that type of ceremony.

So, will there be any time in the near future for same sex marriages to be allowed in Thailand.

[David48]

Thailand is both a liberal and conservative Society simultaneously.

When will Thailand 'allow same sex couples to be allowed to tie the knot and get married' ... most likely not in my lifetime.

.

[Jingthing]

Some time before Malaysia does ...

There are some fairly recent threads here about government discussions about legalizing same sex civil unions. Not sure what happened with that. I had predicted that even legal civil unions wasn't actually going to happen now. Thailand is most definitely not near the legal same sex marriage stage here.

I think it might happen here in about 20 - 50 years.

Probably Vietnam and Cambodia will beat Thailand on this regionally. Maybe even Singapore.

I think Thailand could push that date up if they produce high caliber gay civil rights LEADERS to competently lobby about these issues. I have been very unimpressed by the Thai gay rights movement and my feeling is if the Thai gays themselves don't care enough to get that together, why should this be a priority for the greater society?

Edited June 10, 2013 by Jingthing

[Scott]

They will when they can figure out how to get in the Guiness Book of Records, such as the most gay underwater marriages etc.

[Scott]

I am in a bit of a critical mood, but for God's sake they are having weddings for frogs now. Surely gays should rate somewhere higher than amphibians?

[Riley'sLife]

Many Thai Nationals don't bother to get married on paper, but prefer to have a ceremony whereby society accepts them as a "married" couple.

Why not just do the same.

I really cannot understand why gays make such a fuss about wanting marriage, I think they are better off without it. Maybe just a case of "the grass is greener". I wonder how many people that are married wish they weren't?

A marriage with a frog will, statistically, have more chance of lasting, and that's incontrovertible!

[Jingthing]

Equality of choices, mate.

[sustento]

Thai Facebook 'marriages' usually last about 3 weeks.

[onthemoon]

To answer the OP's question "when will same sex marriage come to Thailand?", the answer is: Yes.

Yes in the sense that it already exists. Several religious ceremonies have been performed, some made it into the newspapers.

Yes in the sense that while it is not even considered by the current government, they might change their minds tomorrow, or the next government will introduce it. But then, maybe not.

Yes in the sense that we won't give up hope. I personally believe that same-sex marriages will come to Thailand at a time when we least expect it. Either tomorrow, or when some pessimists have said it will never happen.

Yes in the sense that we have seen it happen in many countries around the world. I was one of those who went to the streets in the early 1980s in Europe to fight for legal equality and social acceptance, and I am amazed about what has happened in the meantime.

Yes, let's keep it up. I am sure it will happen in Thailand, and within my lifetime.

[David48]

Some nice comments above and I understand the feeling behind them ... well, to be honest, sort of understand.

But given that Marriage has to be sanctioned by the Government, what are the drivers to change the status quo?

Thailand might notice what happens in other neighbouring countries, but not so influenced by them.

What generational change do you envisage which will influence and put pressure on the Government.

I reckon that the conservative nature of the Thai Culture will delay any government for a considerable time.

.

[onthemoon]

Not sure what you mean by the conservative nature of the Thai culture. I have experienced Thailand as the most tolerant people I know towards gay people.

What would make the government to change their minds, is votes. If most voters think that LGBT people should have the same right to marry as straight people do, the government will change at some stage if they believe this will swing some voters they need.

[sustento]

The government in Thailand isn't really interested in votes. They just buy the votes they want.

[AyG]

The Thai government's refusal even to allow British same-sex couples to enter into a civil partnership in the British embassy here indicates just how backward thinking the powers-that-be are here.

[isanbirder]

I think some sort of civil partnership is quite likely, though what rights it would confer is not clear. It may well be a matter of keeping up with the Joneses, in this case Vietnam.

A bill is said to have been drafted, though nobody seems to have seen it.

[David48]

Not sure what you mean by the conservative nature of the Thai culture. I have experienced Thailand as the most tolerant people I know towards gay people.

I liked your comment above as I mostly agree with it.

My take on Thai Society is that it is simultaneously both tolerant and conservative.

.

[pxlgirl]

there's a girls couple who recently had such a wedding ceremony. It seems genuine and though one might argue if it's a good idea to go public, their appearances on several Thai TV shows encourages to deal with this matter.

[onthemoon]

there's a girls couple who recently had such a wedding ceremony. It seems genuine and though one might argue if it's a good idea to go public, their appearances on several Thai TV shows encourages to deal with this matter.

Good to hear, and good for them! There have also been male couples in the papers before, that's why I said that it's happening already in Thailand (minus the legal benefits).

However, the press coverage is the reason why my BF and I are not married in a Buddhist ceremony yet. We go as a couple to official functions, so in business and in our private lives there are no secrets. But then, we are not "public figures" in the sense of politicians, and I don't want the press to deal with our private life.

The fight for the cause is noble and important, and I contributed my part in the 1980s. Now it's time for the younger generation to take over and fight the fight.

[ika]

This gives me hope...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf2xRCbrwoU

[onthemoon]

This gives me hope...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf2xRCbrwoU

Thanks for this. Another issue was mentioned: The average age of the lawmakers is over 45 years, and older people tend to be more conservative about gay marriage than younger people. I believe this is true for other countries as well.

[Jingthing]

This gives me hope...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf2xRCbrwoU

The video probably shouldn't give much hope as the information on that video is misleading. Indeed, there are no current government discussions about recognizing gay marriage. There has some been some noise (with no apparent announcement of any results) over a same sex civil union recognition, separate and by no means equal. The ever so "famous" Gay Natee, the always controversial and colorful character quoted in the speech, has some fun there proclaiming there is some kind of competition with the USA on getting to the marriage equality goal. Such an assertion that there is any such competition is absurd, but if there was one, the smart money would be on the USA.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Jingthing

[ika]

This gives me hope...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf2xRCbrwoU

The video probably shouldn't give much hope as the information on that video is misleading. Indeed, there are no current government discussions about recognizing gay marriage. There has some been some noise (with no apparent announcement of any results) over a same sex civil union recognition, separate and by no means equal. The ever so "famous" Gay Natee, the always controversial and colorful character quoted in the speech, has some fun there proclaiming there is some kind of competition with the USA on getting to the marriage equality goal. Such an assertion that there is any such competition is absurd, but if there was one, the smart money would be on the USA.

You just trashed my hopes in a second!

Thanks for the info. I won't be holding my breath then....

[Jingthing]

You just trashed my hopes in a second!

Thanks for the info. I won't be holding my breath then....

Well, sorry, but just trying to keep it real ...

[ika]

Update....

http://www.newnownext.com/when-will-the-supreme-court-rule-on-doma-prop-8/06/2013/

[isanbirder]

Update....

http://www.newnownext.com/when-will-the-supreme-court-rule-on-doma-prop-8/06/2013/

Not very relevant to Thailand, ika.

When will it happen in Thailand? Your guess is as good as mine.

[LeCharivari]

Many Thai Nationals don't bother to get married on paper, but prefer to have a ceremony whereby society accepts them as a "married" couple.

Why not just do the same.

....(edit)

A point I have made here before – if I recall correctly I gave a link to the low number of Thai marriages in comparison to other countries in the region confirming this.

Marriage in Thailand confers few benefits that aren’t available by other means: a simple will can be made and lodged with City Hall for 20 baht, ensuring that your estate is divided as you want, not arbitrarily; you can now register your choice of “next-of-kin” with a living will, ensuring hospital visiting rights, etc. There are no tax benefits that are not also available to "common law" marriages (co-habitation). Even the limited government medical treatment available to those qualifying via their spouse rather than personally is available to common-law spouses, and it makes little difference to any right of residence or settlement for a foreign spouse.

Marriage is a relatively recently introduced foreign institution in Thailand which has far less meaning to Thais, gay or straight, than it does to many farangs so there is little or no reason for gay Thais to feel any differently about it to their straight counterparts – I know far more gay Thais than I do gay farangs, and literally none of them see it as an issue. The obsession with “marriage” in some quarters as being somehow “superior” to a common law or registered partnership just doesn’t exist here.

As for the “Thai gay rights movement” taking action about “gay civil rights” which another poster mentioned, there really isn’t one to speak of simply because gays ALREADY have the same legal rights (for better or worse) as everybody else here. It isn’t that Thailand is any further ahead on gay rights per se, its simply that being gay isn’t an issue socially or legally here so now that Gay/TG conscription has been resolved there’s nothing much for them to “lobby” about – that is evidenced beyond any doubt by the attendance at the three public debates on the proposed gay partnership bill, which barely attracted 500 participants including those opposing as well as supporting the bill.

[LeCharivari]

You just trashed my hopes in a second!

Thanks for the info. I won't be holding my breath then....

Before giving up hope you should realize that much of the “info” here is not “info” at all but opinion – some informed, some not.

For your information, gay marriage was proposed twice in Parliament under the military government a decade ago. The first time it was voted on and defeated because, according to the bill’s main author Anjana Suvarnananda, the references in it to a “third sex” were confusing; when it was re-submitted without those references it received more support but was rejected as unconstitutional as a bill cannot be proposed twice in one government’s term.

The present bill, supported by the National Human Rights Commission and sponsored by the Democrat MP Wirath Kalayasiri, proposes a civil partnership giving the exact same rights as marriage including inheritance, child care, insurance and medical care (immigration rights, if any, are unclear but these are, in any case, strictly limited). There have been a number of debates where confusing issues such as a homosexuality test and adoption rights have been discussed but these do not appear to have been more than discussion points and to have ever been incorporated into the bill which is still being drafted. The only difference I am aware of is that while heterosexuals can be married at 17, homosexuals would not be allowed to register a partnership until 20 – not something which I see as a major point of contention as it could always be easily amended once the principle has been approved.

Adoption rights are not part of the bill and this would not mean gay couples “losing” any adoption rights they have as single gay parents because, contrary to what has been posted here elsewhere, they barely have any – single men, gay or straight, are not allowed to adopt, and single women are only allowed to adopt special needs children. While it has been discussed there has been no proposal that this situation would change under a civil partnership law as the adoption laws are separate, stipulating that adoption (except for special needs children as above) must be by a man and a woman, aged over 25, etc.

The bill has yet to be finally drafted and, as an opposition bill and one which is hardly a priority, as far as I am aware, it could be some time before it is debated.

From what I have read of the Bill it is a simple, practical and acceptable solution which will suit everyone with the possible exception of a few gay Thais who want to be seen as “leaders” of gay rights movements that clearly barely exist and some gay farangs who are hung up on the formal term “marriage” which is of little significance to Thais. The Bill appears to be somehow “simultaneously both tolerant and conservative”.

[LeCharivari]

The Thai government's refusal even to allow British same-sex couples to enter into a civil partnership in the British embassy here indicates just how backward thinking the powers-that-be are here.

You’re assuming that this was due to “the Thai government” rather than “the British Embassy here” at the time.

Having had to go to Vietnam for my Civil Partnership and had to deal with the British Embassy in Bangkok for the simple supporting documentation required (identical to that required for a straight marriage to a Thai) which they were reluctant to provide to the point of being obstructive, and subsequently mentioned it to the staff in Vietnam who had to contact the Embassy here on my behalf to get it, this is far more a reflection of the British Embassy in Bangkok’s reluctance to be involved in Civil Partnerships than an indicator of the Thai government view.

[Jingthing]

...

As for the “Thai gay rights movement” taking action about “gay civil rights” which another poster mentioned, there really isn’t one to speak of simply because gays ALREADY have the same legal rights (for better or worse) as everybody else here. It isn’t that Thailand is any further ahead on gay rights per se, its simply that being gay isn’t an issue socially or legally here so now that Gay/TG conscription has been resolved there’s nothing much for them to “lobby” about – that is evidenced beyond any doubt by the attendance at the three public debates on the proposed gay partnership bill, which barely attracted 500 participants including those opposing as well as supporting the bill.

No sir. Gay Thais most certainly DO NOT have the same rights as non-gay Thais.

I agree there isn't any kind of strong gay rights movement in Thailand. That's their business. If they don't care, they don't care, but let's please not spread fantasies that gay people aren't subject to discrimination in Thailand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_rights

LGBT rights in: Same-sex sexual activity Recognition of relationships Same-sex marriage Same-sex adoption Allows gays to serve openly in military? Anti-discrimination (Sexual orientation) Laws concerning gender identity/expression

Legal since 1956 Since 2005

Edited July 3, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

...

As for the “Thai gay rights movement” taking action about “gay civil rights” which another poster mentioned, there really isn’t one to speak of simply because gays ALREADY have the same legal rights (for better or worse) as everybody else here. It isn’t that Thailand is any further ahead on gay rights per se, its simply that being gay isn’t an issue socially or legally here so now that Gay/TG conscription has been resolved there’s nothing much for them to “lobby” about – that is evidenced beyond any doubt by the attendance at the three public debates on the proposed gay partnership bill, which barely attracted 500 participants including those opposing as well as supporting the bill.

No sir. Gay Thais most certainly DO NOT have the same rights as non-gay Thais.

LGBT rights in: Same-sex sexual activity Recognition of relationships Same-sex marriage Same-sex adoption Allows gays to serve openly in military? Anti-discrimination (Sexual orientation) Laws concerning gender identity/expression

Legal since 1956 Since 2005

I don't understand what you are referring to as .

My point was that "gays ALREADY have the same legal rights (for better or worse) as everybody else here."(sic). This is 2013, not 1956 or 2005.

Your American yardstick of Gay Pride parades as a bizarre measure of gay rights simply doesn't work here - gays just aren't that interested in being separated from the mainstream and although no-one enjoys a parade more than Thais (especially gay Thais), why would any self-respecting gay Thai want to be limited to just one parade every year when there are so many they can take part in?

Just exactly what legal rights do you say they do not "ALREADY have" as gays/LGBT that "everybody else here" (straights) has?

"Same-sex sexual activity" - "ALREADY have"

"Allows gays to serve openly in military" - "ALREADY have"; not only allowed as volunteers, but obligatory as conscripts.

"Anti-discrimination (Sexual orientation) Laws concerning gender identity/expression" - "ALREADY have" to the same extent as anyone else under the Constitution, Part II, Section 30: "Unjust discrimination against a person on the grounds of the difference in origin, race, language, sex, age, disability, physical or health condition, personal status, economic or social standing, religious belief, education or constitutionally political view, shall not be permitted." This was specifically debated and written in as "personal status" to cover all such eventualities (gender identity/sexual preference/ethnicity/etc). There are no hate crime laws, etc, specific to LGBT, but there are none for anyone else ("the same").

"Same-sex adoption" - see above; discrimination is based on gender and age, not sexual preference; "fostering", as anyone here should be aware,' is widespread with no sexual preference restrictions.

"Recognition of relationships Same-sex marriage" - see above, at length; it's being drafted.

[Jingthing]

I didn't mention gay pride parades as a measure of anything in Thailand so please don't act like I did as some kind of off topic diversion.

Refer to the wiki link which I thought was quite obvious already from the post.

I get your SUBJECTIVE opinion that things are totally peachy for gay people in Thailand with your "proof" apparently being that gay people are not very politically organized here.

I contend the fact that they are not organized does not prove a thing about the actual conditions of gay people in Thailand. It simply means they aren't organized. The Thailand that I know, again my subjective opinion, is not the gay paradise that so many foreigners seem to think it is for gay Thais. I think gay Thais are quite seriously STIGMATIZED even to the point where it seems the majority of Thais don't know the difference between a gay Thai and a Thai ladyboy.

Of course Thailand isn't the worst place in the world for gay nationals, but it isn't the best either. I don't think a country has to be as bad as Iran, Nigeria, or Russia for this to matter, but again, if gay Thais are simply not interested in working hard to improve the situation further, that's their call. As foreigners, we can only observe.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Jingthing