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Posted

As time goes by, his motives do not seem so pure. Advising China that the USA is hacking their websites has nothing to do with personal privacy and is posssibly treasonous.

true to some extend. But I think his main motivation was/is to bring it to global attention and traded to buy time. I believe he didn't give or have sensitive data. He also mentioned other things among that. He's aware of his fate and I still hope he gets a fair trial. He actually wishes that.

In meanwhile nearly 900000 signatures and rising on the petition site https://secure.avaaz.org/en/stop_prism_global/?fp

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Posted (edited)

It seems bizarre that you have many in the security agencies and US government calling for life imprisonment of Snowden, but to date the US has not issued an international warrant for Snowden's arrest. Putting aside the rights and wrongs, can anyone provide a reasonable explanation why

maybe because his case is handled in secret courts? What a mess ...

How to pass secret court rulings to official courts? ... unless he is proven guilty a secret court won't stand I think, but he's in grave danger.

I also can see the secret courts will be thrown out by the high court now. In meanwhile the smear campaign to find official court rulings for an warrant is in full swing. But will it happen?

at the other hand I believe that there is a higher %age within the agencies, to have Snowden his way of public hearing, than in the major public. They want to be set free too and the public is usually screwed to control them so to speak. Those who set that up forgot maybe one thing, that the cleaning comes from within.

Edited by wealth
Posted (edited)

Perhaps they are sure that the Chinese government will not honor it?

It's a process that US government would issue an international arrest warrant that is actionable by police forces working with Interpol; yet for some reason has not. China is a member country of Interpol, but as you say would they honour the agreement if Snowden is in their jurisdiction. For the moment it appears he is still in Hong Kong.

Edited by simple1
Posted (edited)

Perhaps they are sure that the Chinese government will not honor it?

It's a process that US government would issue an international arrest warrant that is actionable by police forces working with Interpol; yet for some reason has not. China is a member country of Interpol, but as you say would they honour the agreement if Snowden is in their jurisdiction. For the moment it appears he is still in Hong Kong.

too many irregularities, secret courts vs public courts, secret agencies vs executive agencies the list goes on ...

BTW, has Leviticus left the board? (the third hand in the game)

Edited by wealth
Posted
U.S. Agencies Said to Swap Data With Thousands of Firms


By Michael Riley - Jun 15, 2013


Thousands of technology, finance and manufacturing companies are working closely with U.S. national security agencies, providing sensitive information and in return receiving benefits that include access to classified intelligence, four people familiar with the process said.


These programs, whose participants are known as trusted partners, extend far beyond what was revealed by Edward Snowden, a computer technician who did work for the National Security Agency. The role of private companies has come under intense scrutiny since his disclosure this month that the NSA is collecting millions of U.S. residents’ telephone records and the computer communications of foreigners from Google Inc (GOOG). and other Internet companies under court order.


Posted

More details are becoming available about the NSA's BLARNEY program, which essentially intercepts - Mark Klein, the AT&T whistle-blower previously detailed the fiber splitter technology - all communications at various "choke-points" (partially hidden on the leaked "Upstream" slide, with associated programs redacted.

Naturally, the revelations about the BLARNEY system shed light on the possible motivations of the NSA for the construction of enormous data storage facilities such as the Utah Data Center in Bluffdale, Utah. As reported in Wired magazine:

But “this is more than just a data center,” says one senior intelligence official who until recently was involved with the program. The mammoth Bluffdale center will have another important and far more secret role that until now has gone unrevealed… According to another top official also involved with the program, the NSA made an enormous breakthrough several years ago in its ability to cryptanalyze, or break, unfathomably complex encryption systems employed by not only governments around the world but also many average computer users in the U.S. The upshot, according to this official: “Everybody’s a target; everybody with communication is a target.”

post-9615-0-52269100-1371268429_thumb.jp

Posted (edited)

Sorry, entirely personal viewpoint for me, but if you rely on or believe off the bat, the information produced and manipulated by today's media, then you become another member of the herd.

If a story is substantiated, that is another story, but what I see above is conjecture pure and simple, likely written by unqualified persons with a knack for headline grabbing.

Each to their own, I was making my personal comments, and see nothing here to change my views.

They haven't quite been able to monitor my thoughts yet......................wink.png

Edited by Scott
Quote edited out
Posted (edited)

whistling.gif All U.S. government and military agencies have an established procedure they use to smear anyone who crosses them.

You can be sure there will be media stories using every bit of possible bad information they have from their background psychological briefing and security briefing/interviews they conducted when he was hired to attempt to smear him.

For example, the ridiculous attempt to brand him as a "Chinese" intelligence agent simply because he gave an interview disclosing himself in Hong Kong.

If he gave the same interview in London, would he be branded a agent of the U.K. intelligence.

No, not likely, because nobody would believe him.

But Chins ... well that's different kettle of fish. So let's make him a "Chinese" agent .... and some of the dumb knee-jerk conservatives will buy that line.

For all the hype, he is, in fact, a low ranking data collector.

Let's make it clear that he merely COLLECTS intelligence.... it's his superiors who decide how and when to use the stuff collected.

And that's the real problem..... it's the people above him who decide how and when any information they find will be used that we really can't trust.

Those people are NOT elected, NOT vetted (except by their own superiors), and NOT really accountable (they hide behind a "best interests of the country" claim).

THEY, the supervisors, are the ones I don't trust.

blink.png

P.S. Booz Hamilton, and several other civilian agencies are making latterly Billions of U.S. dollars yearly providing information and "data" to the NSA and other intelligence agencies yearly.

"National Security" is the fastest growing business part of the so-called "Defense Industry" right now.

Edited by IMA_FARANG
  • Like 2
Posted

It seems bizarre that you have many in the security agencies and US government calling for life imprisonment of Snowden, but to date the US has not issued an international warrant for Snowden's arrest. Putting aside the rights and wrongs, can anyone provide a reasonable explanation why

The executive branch said the past week it is investigating the damage done by the release of highly classified information by Snowden, and other aspects of compromises of national security. Snowden is not yet charged because it takes time to investigate the damage, specific by specific, and generally.

When the U.S. government completes it investigation, assessment, evaluation of the damages done, then specific charges will be filed against Snowden (and possibly others). The U.S. also has to determine which confidential national security information Snowden in Hong Kong showed to the Chinese Communist Party - it takes time to deduce this.

When the U.S. charges Snowden (and possibly others) the government can contact Interpol to present the charges so that Interpol can issue an actionable warrant to arrest or apprehend. The U.S. government however may prefer not to contact Interpol, as the U.S. may choose to have sole sovereign responsibility and exclusive authority over the Snowden matter in relation to the CCP-PRC. Who knows what local police elsewhere in the world might do if Snowden is found in their jurisdiction? We'll see.

The U.S. still has not filed charges against Johar in the Boston Marathon bombings case because the investigation and consideration of charges continues to be active and ongoing. The government obtained permission from the judge in the case to extend the legal deadline to file charges, in accordance with law.

Filing charges in these instances is not done overnight, or snap snap quickly or easily. It's a careful, methodical and deliberative process.

Posted

“We all know dogmatists who are more concerned about holding their opinions than about investigating their truth. ... if they are mistaken, they will never discover it; they have condemned themselves to perpetual error. Human beings sometimes use their beliefs for wish-fulfillment. Too often we believe what we want to be true.”

― David L. Wolfe

Yes UG ... in the same vein as your post - some obama zealots are satisfied to believe that if a controversy fades a bit for a while - then the egregious wrong doing of the obama Administration was correct and justified - out of sight out of mind regardless of lawless deeds committed .... But contrary to the wishful thinking of obama zealots ... evidence mounts - the populist becomes aware - then even former defenders shout for accountability and reform... those who are brainwashed obama leftist robots just keep on cheerleading and wishful thinking ...

Most posters have wised up to focus on the institutional nature of the issues before us. They have quit trying to personalize the issue. Yet the above post continues to hammer at the "anti-Christ" and seeks to personalize the important matter of institutions of the U.S. government probably gone awry.

The vast majority of Americans, the center-middle, don't necessarily see the president as the devil incarnate in the NSA controversies. Yet the above post continues in its tired and tiring off-center campaign of trying to demonize Prez Obama. This only detracts from the great importance of getting to the bottom of what is going on at the NSA and perhaps other national security agencies of the United States.

As long as the usual suspect wing nuts and tea party people continue to personalize the issue, they will meet resistance and continue to be viewed by the vast center-middle of the U.S. as the weirdos of the far right political extreme that they are.

Posted

Continued inflammatory remarks will result in moderator action.

Please stay on topic and keep it civil.

Posted

59% Oppose Governments Secret Collecting of Phone Records

Sunday, June 09, 2013

Most voters oppose the U.S. governments secret collection of the phone records of millions of Americans and think the feds are spying too much on U.S. citizens these days. Just 26% of Likely U.S. Voters favor the governments secret collecting of these phone records for national security purposes regardless of whether there is any suspicion of wrongdoing.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/june_2013/59_oppose_government_s_secret_collecting_of_phone_records

It does suck, but crap like Facebook is worse than the government. I don't even use Facebook anymore and yet my iPhone, photos and a business I used to own mentioned on Facebook, associated with an old phone number nonetheless, pops up or is associated with this line.

  • Like 1
Posted

59% Oppose Governments Secret Collecting of Phone Records

Sunday, June 09, 2013

Most voters oppose the U.S. governments secret collection of the phone records of millions of Americans and think the feds are spying too much on U.S. citizens these days. Just 26% of Likely U.S. Voters favor the governments secret collecting of these phone records for national security purposes regardless of whether there is any suspicion of wrongdoing.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/june_2013/59_oppose_government_s_secret_collecting_of_phone_records

It does suck, but crap like Facebook is worse than the government. I don't even use Facebook anymore and yet my iPhone, photos and a business I used to own mentioned on Facebook, associated with an old phone number nonetheless, pops up or is associated with this line.

You linked to Rasmussen. You're in deep trouble now.

  • Like 2
Posted

59% Oppose Governments Secret Collecting of Phone Records

Sunday, June 09, 2013

Most voters oppose the U.S. governments secret collection of the phone records of millions of Americans and think the feds are spying too much on U.S. citizens these days. Just 26% of Likely U.S. Voters favor the governments secret collecting of these phone records for national security purposes regardless of whether there is any suspicion of wrongdoing.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/june_2013/59_oppose_government_s_secret_collecting_of_phone_records

It does suck, but crap like Facebook is worse than the government. I don't even use Facebook anymore and yet my iPhone, photos and a business I used to own mentioned on Facebook, associated with an old phone number nonetheless, pops up or is associated with this line.

You linked to Rasmussen. You're in deep trouble now.

Yes, I know (I've been told)... but I do it on purpose. Because it is a reliable source - if one seeks fairness not built in bias. :)

  • Like 1
Posted

Snowden Used Banned Flash Drive to Smuggle NSA Data

"He should not have been able to do either of those things" without raising red flags, a private-sector IT security specialist told the Times. NSA officials "were lying down on their job if they didn't disable the USB port," the specialist said, referring to the small socket on the side of a computer where the thumb-sized drives are inserted.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/snowden-nsa-flash-drive/2013/06/14/id/510064?s=al&promo_code=13D6C-1

Posted (edited)

59% Oppose Governments Secret Collecting of Phone Records

Sunday, June 09, 2013

Most voters oppose the U.S. governments secret collection of the phone records of millions of Americans and think the feds are spying too much on U.S. citizens these days. Just 26% of Likely U.S. Voters favor the governments secret collecting of these phone records for national security purposes regardless of whether there is any suspicion of wrongdoing.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/june_2013/59_oppose_government_s_secret_collecting_of_phone_records

It does suck, but crap like Facebook is worse than the government. I don't even use Facebook anymore and yet my iPhone, photos and a business I used to own mentioned on Facebook, associated with an old phone number nonetheless, pops up or is associated with this line.

You linked to Rasmussen. You're in deep trouble now.

All this big brother shit pisses me off regardless who is president and I have nothing to hide. This is why the DNA holding pissed me off because it just reflects how much of a slippery slope we are on and have been on for a while. I said over and over in 2002 ish that I would much prefer to live with that infinitesimal chance of being harmed by a nut nagger terrorist act on US soil than slowly but completely erode our way of life in the name of security or protection.

Candidly, Obama and some of the crap going on does piss me off right now. I don't care who set it in motion, he is responsible for shit on his watch. He seems a bit paralyzed and more concerned about legacy than making the difficult decisions. Perhaps there is legacy pressure being first black President, perhaps he is all talk or perhaps he is just confused.

Edited by F430murci
Posted
It does suck, but crap like Facebook is worse than the government. I don't even use Facebook anymore and yet my iPhone, photos and a business I used to own mentioned on Facebook, associated with an old phone number nonetheless, pops up or is associated with this line.

You linked to Rasmussen. You're in deep trouble now.

All this big brother shit pisses me off regardless who is president and I have nothing to hide. This is why the DNA holding pissed me off because it just reflects how much of a slippery slope we are on and have been on for a while. I said over and over in 2002 ish that I would much prefer to live with that infinitesimal chance of being harmed by a nut nagger terrorist act on US soil than slowly but completely erode our way of life in the name of security or protection.

Candidly, Obama and some of the crap going on does piss me off right now. I don't care who set it in motion, he is responsible for shit on his watch. He seems a bit paralyzed and more concerned about legacy than making the difficult decisions. Perhaps there is legacy pressure being first black President, perhaps he is all talk or perhaps he is just confused.

Not for the first time ( but almost), I agree with your sentiments in this matter.

This sentence says it all..." he is responsible for shit on his watch".

He was given the authority, now he needs to accept some responsibility for his actions.

Posted
It does suck, but crap like Facebook is worse than the government. I don't even use Facebook anymore and yet my iPhone, photos and a business I used to own mentioned on Facebook, associated with an old phone number nonetheless, pops up or is associated with this line.

You linked to Rasmussen. You're in deep trouble now.

All this big brother shit pisses me off regardless who is president and I have nothing to hide. This is why the DNA holding pissed me off because it just reflects how much of a slippery slope we are on and have been on for a while. I said over and over in 2002 ish that I would much prefer to live with that infinitesimal chance of being harmed by a nut nagger terrorist act on US soil than slowly but completely erode our way of life in the name of security or protection.

Candidly, Obama and some of the crap going on does piss me off right now. I don't care who set it in motion, he is responsible for shit on his watch. He seems a bit paralyzed and more concerned about legacy than making the difficult decisions. Perhaps there is legacy pressure being first black President, perhaps he is all talk or perhaps he is just confused.

Not for the first time ( but almost), I agree with your sentiments in this matter.

This sentence says it all..." he is responsible for shit on his watch".

He was given the authority, now he needs to accept some responsibility for his actions.

There is just so much a President can do when he inherits laws passed by a Republican government. Please keep in mind that the Patriot Act was a gift from a Republican Congress. That being said, a President has to work with what he has. The real issue is/are the laws that authorize all of these information gathering programs. It is up to the US Congress to act. Therefore, I suggest you take it up with your Representative. If people are unhappy with the present circumstances, then change the applicable laws that authorize the activity. Repeal the Patriot Act or amend it.

  • Like 2
Posted

“We all know dogmatists who are more concerned about holding their opinions than about investigating their truth. ... if they are mistaken, they will never discover it; they have condemned themselves to perpetual error. Human beings sometimes use their beliefs for wish-fulfillment. Too often we believe what we want to be true.”

― David L. Wolfe

Yes UG ... in the same vein as your post - some obama zealots are satisfied to believe that if a controversy fades a bit for a while - then the egregious wrong doing of the obama Administration was correct and justified - out of sight out of mind regardless of lawless deeds committed .... But contrary to the wishful thinking of obama zealots ... evidence mounts - the populist becomes aware - then even former defenders shout for accountability and reform... those who are brainwashed obama leftist robots just keep on cheerleading and wishful thinking ...

Most posters have wised up to focus on the institutional nature of the issues before us. They have quit trying to personalize the issue. Yet the above post continues to hammer at the "anti-Christ" and seeks to personalize the important matter of institutions of the U.S. government probably gone awry.

The vast majority of Americans, the center-middle, don't necessarily see the president as the devil incarnate in the NSA controversies. Yet the above post continues in its tired and tiring off-center campaign of trying to demonize Prez Obama. This only detracts from the great importance of getting to the bottom of what is going on at the NSA and perhaps other national security agencies of the United States.

As long as the usual suspect wing nuts and tea party people continue to personalize the issue, they will meet resistance and continue to be viewed by the vast center-middle of the U.S. as the weirdos of the far right political extreme that they are.

This is not a "personalizing" or "demonizing" of these issues. Obama is the chief executive of the United States government. He is the top manager of the executive branch. This makes him responsible for these actions. At least with this NSA action he is not playing his usual and lame "The first that I knew about it is from the news reports" excuse. But, as usual, the buck seems to stop everywhere but with him.

Oh, just so you know; Senator Mark Udall, Senator Ron Wyden, and many others that are bothered by this are not "wing nuts and tea party people" or "far right political extreme". The extreme is a more apt description of the people who believe that Obama is beyond reproach and that those who criticize him must be "wing nuts", "tea party", or "unpredictable".

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)

As time goes by, his motives do not seem so pure. Advising China that the USA is hacking their websites has nothing to do with personal privacy and is posssibly treasonous.

true to some extend. But I think his main motivation was/is to bring it to global attention and traded to buy time. I believe he didn't give or have sensitive data. He also mentioned other things among that. He's aware of his fate and I still hope he gets a fair trial. He actually wishes that.

In meanwhile nearly 900000 signatures and rising on the petition site https://secure.avaaz.org/en/stop_prism_global/?fp

The people who want to dismiss Snowden's consorting with the Chinese Communist Party diminish their credibility in general. Well before Snowden leaked the information everyone is dwelling on, probably rightly so, he transferred funds to a Hong Kong bank and made travel arrangements without the knowledge of NSA officials at his Hawaii station. These and other surreptitious actions by Snowden during the leadup to his unauthorized travel with unauthorized national security documents is not acceptable behavior for a NSA computer specialist. Is there anyone among those who try to downplay Snowden's illegal activities willing to examine the possibility he already has consorted with the CCP? And that Snowden's willing and open cooperation with the CCP is harmful to U.S. national security?

So, Now That Edward Snowden May Blab US Secrets To China, Do You Still Think He's A Hero?

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-giving-us-secrets-to-china-2013-6#ixzz2WJnltywV

China To Weigh Snowden's Fate

http://www.businessinsider.com/china-to-weigh-snowdens-fate-2013-6

FORMER GOVERNMENT AGENT: Edward Snowden Is 'A Self-Indulgent Douche'

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/government-agent-edward-snowden-is-a-douche-2013-6#ixzz2WJrTCHhG

It may also be time in all of the commotion and chaos of fear, apprehension and, in too many instances, paranoia, to consider some more rational and calm views that state a more balanced and dispassionate factual reality about the recently publicized policies and actions of the NSA and other U.S. national security agencies.

I've Decided I'm Okay With The Government Collecting My Phone Records*

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/government-collecting-my-phone-records-2013-6#ixzz2WJqYZWiL

If You're Still Freaking Out About The Government Grabbing Your Phone Records, Calm Down And Read This ...

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/how-the-government-uses-phone-records-2013-6#ixzz2WJr4RQ9L

Edited by Publicus
Posted

It seems bizarre that you have many in the security agencies and US government calling for life imprisonment of Snowden, but to date the US has not issued an international warrant for Snowden's arrest. Putting aside the rights and wrongs, can anyone provide a reasonable explanation why

maybe because his case is handled in secret courts? What a mess ...

How to pass secret court rulings to official courts? ... unless he is proven guilty a secret court won't stand I think, but he's in grave danger.

I also can see the secret courts will be thrown out by the high court now. In meanwhile the smear campaign to find official court rulings for an warrant is in full swing. But will it happen?

at the other hand I believe that there is a higher %age within the agencies, to have Snowden his way of public hearing, than in the major public. They want to be set free too and the public is usually screwed to control them so to speak. Those who set that up forgot maybe one thing, that the cleaning comes from within.

Snowden would be tried in open court, same as every other traitor or double agent has been. Talking about "secret courts" trying him is off the wall, not in contact with reality baloney. Neither is the Fisa court a star chamber as no one is charged, arranged, indicted or physically brought there to be tried for a specific violation of law. Fisa was enacted by the Congress and signed into law by a previous president, in 1978. No one has challenged Fisa before the Supreme Court.

NSA and all of the other national security agencies always need Congressional oversight and the vigilance of the president himself. There are however people with views that concern me more than anything the NSA does that we task it to do.

Secret courts! What secret courts?! When? Where? Whom?

Posted (edited)

what bothers me most is that almost nobody talks or presents solutions, All act as if everything is OK with the current settings and nobody's willing to give up a little in order to contribute then more to the public good. Instead leaders roll over the problems they have created to the population. Everybody knows that the settings are terribly wrong. This should ring alarm bells, because nobody of the 99.99% would/will be spared.

Don't expect Snowden to be an Einstein, but his action have set off an avalanche of changes ahead. What will it be? A slavery incomparable to anything happened in the past in it's severeness? Or will we all stick our heads together and name the problems and implement solutions - a win-win-win?

It is possible when there's a will.

Freedom with responsibility!

Edited by wealth
  • Like 1
Posted

Snowden has set off nothing. The former republican gov't gave the former president what he wanted. They now don't want it used by an opposition president. That is why nothing is being done. The game being played by most in Washington is politics and it is done with only lip service to either the safety or freedoms of the American public.

Gov'ts have always tried to stretch their powers until a court tells them they can't. On rare occasions, the public will send them a strong message.

What will happen is the work of those inside the NSA will be more difficult, with respect to screening and watching their own employees.

Posted

As time goes by, his motives do not seem so pure. Advising China that the USA is hacking their websites has nothing to do with personal privacy and is posssibly treasonous.

This issue (if true and is not another means to discredit) would be bringing to the fore criminal activities by US government agencies by hacking websites. If it is true then American agencies are defending their 'right' to data theft, the very issue that Snowden has made public to the world.

For me, this is a non-issue. This has been happening for decades, and at the end of the day it is up to the administration of said site to ensure that sufficient security is on the site to protect the data displayed or contained within.

The above said, Snowden is still wrong in what he did as, even if only a short term contractor to the NSA, if he was privy to classified materials he almost certainly would have had to sign a disclaimer against revealing information.

If however he didn't sign anything to prevent him speaking about his work, that may be a nightmare for the US government to prove he has actually done anything wrong.................wink.png In this case he has the potential to use American law to his advantage to protect his rights.

Now that would make for a story...............thumbsup.gif

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