Fbar? foreign bank account report.

[JimGant]

Don't know what the original on-line FBAR form looked like (I filed paper) -- but as of this month there's a new one at the website. It flows the same as the paper form (single accounts, joint accounts, etc) -- and seems well-designed. I opened it with Firefox, using the "Adobe Acrobat (within Firefox)" default option for PDF files. I also had downloaded the latest Adobe Reader, then told Firefox to use that program as the default PDF reader. Yep, it too worked in opening the FBAR form. I also have Adobe Acrobat Professional 8.3 -- but no apparent conflicts having that on the computer -- a problem others had experienced. I'm using Windows 8, not that that should have ever been a potential problem...

My biggest gripe with on-line reporting had been there was no way to file a single FBAR for the wife and me to report our joint accounts -- which you could do with paper, as long as she had no individual accounts. This single paper FBAR, however, required both signatures -- something you couldn't do by efiling, thus she would have to file her own FBAR. Well, they got around that by issuing a Form 114A, which has her signature authorizing you to file electronically in her behalf. This paper form is not sent in, but kept in your files -- to be sent in, if requested (fat chance of that ever happening). Anyway, they've dotted the i's to make a workaround, so that the wife doesn't have to file her own FBAR. See here: http://www.fincen.gov/whatsnew/html/20130729.html

And, if you're behind the power curve with filing FBARs, this Forbes article should help add to your confusion: http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2013/08/20/foreign-bank-accounts-irs-fincen-catch-22/

[Pib]

Jim,

Good info on the third party electronic submission FBAR thingie for the wife....good to hear that news. As you, through the years I've been doing the FBAR submission for the wife and I on one paper form....guess this year will have to go via electronic submission.

Pib

[JimGant]

Well, tried to file my electronic FBAR today. Yes, the "official" Dec 31st FX rate is not out yet. But it will be around 33, and I maxed out for FBAR in July, when the baht was around 31. So, I'll be reporting more dollars than officially required, so no under reporting problem, should I be queried.

But, I couldn't make any headway. Logged on ok, and filled in the form (having to use Adobe Reader, not the Adobe Acrobat in Firefox, which was ok a few months ago when I made a trial run). Then I went to validate, and it told me it can't run the validation until after I electronically sign. That's just the opposite of how things are supposed to work, according to the guidance. So I manually verified all the blocks looked ok, then hit "submit." Nope. It told me I was no longer logged onto the FBAR site, so please log on again and resubmit. As I was, indeed, still logged on, I then logged off, logged back on, tried to submit -- but got the same message about not being logged on.

Anyway, the system has gone south since I last checked it out in October (that was with Windows XP -- today was Win 7). What is it with the Feds and software programs?

Anybody else have success/failure yet?

[pmarlin]

Well, tried to file my electronic FBAR today. Yes, the "official" Dec 31st FX rate is not out yet. But it will be around 33, and I maxed out for FBAR in July, when the baht was around 31. So, I'll be reporting more dollars than officially required, so no under reporting problem, should I be queried.

But, I couldn't make any headway. Logged on ok, and filled in the form (having to use Adobe Reader, not the Adobe Acrobat in Firefox, which was ok a few months ago when I made a trial run). Then I went to validate, and it told me it can't run the validation until after I electronically sign. That's just the opposite of how things are supposed to work, according to the guidance. So I manually verified all the blocks looked ok, then hit "submit." Nope. It told me I was no longer logged onto the FBAR site, so please log on again and resubmit. As I was, indeed, still logged on, I then logged off, logged back on, tried to submit -- but got the same message about not being logged on.

Anyway, the system has gone south since I last checked it out in October (that was with Windows XP -- today was Win 7). What is it with the Feds and software programs?

Anybody else have success/failure yet?

Did it on 5 Jan 14 for CY 2013. Had no problems. got a receipt when done and with in 24 hours got an email with some numbers to keep for next year. Didn't like the method where you had to fill out the form save it and the attach it when sending it in. Think it should have been a little easier.

Edited January 11, 2014 by pmarlin

[JimGant]

Did it on 5 Jan 14 for CY 2013. Had no problems. got a receipt when done and with in 24 hours got an email with some numbers to keep for next year. Didn't like the method where you had to fill out the form save it and the attach it when sending it in. Think it should have been a little easier.

Which Windows version did you use? Also, Firefox or IE? If Firefox, did you default PDF applications to "Use Adobe Reader" -- or "Adobe Acrobat in Firefox"?

Not sure I understand the part about "save it and then attach it." Yes, you have to "save" it before the "submit" button will activate -- but as I never got to submit it (since it thought I was logged off), I never got to see what happened next. However, I don't understand your "attach" part......

Thanks for your data. I emailed FinCen to see what they might have to say. No response as of yet.

[pmarlin]

Did it on 5 Jan 14 for CY 2013. Had no problems. got a receipt when done and with in 24 hours got an email with some numbers to keep for next year. Didn't like the method where you had to fill out the form save it and the attach it when sending it in. Think it should have been a little easier.

Which Windows version did you use? Also, Firefox or IE? If Firefox, did you default PDF applications to "Use Adobe Reader" -- or "Adobe Acrobat in Firefox"?

Not sure I understand the part about "save it and then attach it." Yes, you have to "save" it before the "submit" button will activate -- but as I never got to submit it (since it thought I was logged off), I never got to see what happened next. However, I don't understand your "attach" part......

Thanks for your data. I emailed FinCen to see what they might have to say. No response as of yet.

Win 7 ultimate, IE 11. Adobe X standard. The filing is done in two steps, you complete the form, save it and then go to the send part where you attach the saved file. When you complete the form it takes you to complete the electronic signature.

[JimGant]

Well, I finally got it to work -- by (in part) reading "System Requirement" settings for Firefox, which comes up on the BSA E-filing introduction page, after signing in. Duh.

Setting Changes for FIREFOX
The following setting update is needed in order for Firefox to perform properly with the BSA E-Filing System. If this change is not made, you will receive error messages indicating “You must login to the application” when trying to submit your filings.
1. With Firefox open, go to Tools, Add-Ons and validate the Adobe Acrobat PDF/Adobe PDF plug-in is available and enabled. If it is not available, please Download Forms Reader and install to enable the plug-in.
2. Once the plug-in install has been validated go to Tools, Options, Applications and select the option to "Use Adobe Acrobat (In Firefox)" for the Portable Document Format line as shown below:

After all the harping from BSA about dowloading the latest Adobe Reader, I had thought that selecting "Use Adobe Reader" in the Tools, Options, Applications setup was the logical way to go. But, nope. As it says above, you need to select "Use Adobe Acrobat (in Firefox)."

Now, post #27 has a reference about tweaking your latest version of Adobe Reader. Their example is dated, using Adobe Reader X. The latest version is XI. However, if you have other Adobe PDF reader products installed, particularly Adobe Acrobat Professional, I think the following tweaking step was necessary to finally have success. Again, this was with Adobe Reader XI installed.

Go to edit, preferences, internet, and see what the "Web Browser" option is set to. If you have Adobe Acrobat installed, it probably says this is the default reader. At least this was my experience, and I had told Windows that Adobe Reader was the default program for every and any reference to PDF.

If this is the case, go to edit, preferences, general and click on "Select default PDF Handler." Choose Adobe Reader. You should then be good-to-go, with no requirement to offload your Adobe Acrobat software (as the obsolete reference in post #27 repeatedly highlights).

[JimGant]

The filing is done in two steps, you complete the form, save it and then go to the send part where you attach the saved file.

Ah, pmarlin, I see where you're coming from. They have a new way to Efile, that doesn't require registration and login. The old way still works (as I just did it), but the new way may avoid some previous pitfalls.

Important Notice to BSA E-Filers: Streamlined Submission Process for Individual Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR), Updates to CTR, SAR and FBAR Electronic Filing Specifications

FinCEN has streamlined the process for electronic filing an Individual Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR), FinCEN 114. . The new process removes the requirement for registering and creating an account on the BSA E-Filing System prior to downloading, completing, and submitting the report to the system. This process is available for individuals who are required to file an FBAR. Businesses, including CPAs, should register and create an account as an Institution on the BSA E-Filing System prior to downloading, completing and submitting FBARs on behalf of their business or clients.

Individuals can access the new process by clicking on the File an Individual FBAR on the BSA E-Filing Home Page (http://bsaefiling.fincen.treas.gov/main.html):

[Pib]

The filing is done in two steps, you complete the form, save it and then go to the send part where you attach the saved file.

Ah, pmarlin, I see where you're coming from. They have a new way to Efile, that doesn't require registration and login. The old way still works (as I just did it), but the new way may avoid some previous pitfalls.

Important Notice to BSA E-Filers: Streamlined Submission Process for Individual Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR), Updates to CTR, SAR and FBAR Electronic Filing Specifications

FinCEN has streamlined the process for electronic filing an Individual Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR), FinCEN 114. . The new process removes the requirement for registering and creating an account on the BSA E-Filing System prior to downloading, completing, and submitting the report to the system. This process is available for individuals who are required to file an FBAR. Businesses, including CPAs, should register and create an account as an Institution on the BSA E-Filing System prior to downloading, completing and submitting FBARs on behalf of their business or clients.

Individuals can access the new process by clicking on the File an Individual FBAR on the BSA E-Filing Home Page (http://bsaefiling.fincen.treas.gov/main.html):

And a couple can now file a "joint" FBAR as before it they meet the requirements and of course assuming they have more than $10K in foreign financial assets. No need for the spouse, lets say the wife, to submit a separate FBAR if all the accounts she has ownership in are joint accounts with the husband.

But as before, if the wife separately owns just one account (with just 1 baht in it lets say) and jointly owns other accounts with the husband with all these accounts she has sole/joint ownership in exceeds $10K then she must submit a separate report also which basically ends up reporting the husband's and wife's joint accounts again...but the FBAR is not used to determine tax...just to report foreign accounts. But if her single owned account combined with the joint accounts is $10K or less than she don't have to submit another report...the joint submission covers her.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Pib

[Ticketmaster]

The filing is done in two steps, you complete the form, save it and then go to the send part where you attach the saved file.

Ah, pmarlin, I see where you're coming from. They have a new way to Efile, that doesn't require registration and login. The old way still works (as I just did it), but the new way may avoid some previous pitfalls.

Important Notice to BSA E-Filers: Streamlined Submission Process for Individual Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR), Updates to CTR, SAR and FBAR Electronic Filing Specifications

FinCEN has streamlined the process for electronic filing an Individual Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR), FinCEN 114. . The new process removes the requirement for registering and creating an account on the BSA E-Filing System prior to downloading, completing, and submitting the report to the system. This process is available for individuals who are required to file an FBAR. Businesses, including CPAs, should register and create an account as an Institution on the BSA E-Filing System prior to downloading, completing and submitting FBARs on behalf of their business or clients.

Individuals can access the new process by clicking on the File an Individual FBAR on the BSA E-Filing Home Page (http://bsaefiling.fincen.treas.gov/main.html):

And a couple can now file a "joint" FBAR as before it they meet the requirements and of course assuming they have more than $10K in foreign financial assets. No need for the spouse, lets say the wife, to submit a separate FBAR if all the accounts she has ownership in are joint accounts with the husband.

But as before, if the wife separately owns just one account (with just 1 baht in it lets say) and jointly owns other accounts with the husband with all these accounts she has sole/joint ownership in exceeds $10K then she must submit a separate report also which basically ends up reporting the husband's and wife's joint accounts again...but the FBAR is not used to determine tax...just to report foreign accounts. But if her single owned account combined with the joint accounts is $10K or less than she don't have to submit another report...the joint submission covers her.

BUT, one should consider, the US Government has authority over US citizens. The US Government has zero authority over non-US citizens that have never set foot on US soil or otherwise submitted to its authority. A wife has no legal obligation whatsoever to share her private banking information with her husband.

Thus, any US laws requiring a non-US citizen spouse that has never set foot on US soil are nothing but an unenforceable wish, and there is no need to comply with them Such laws have no validity whatsoever.

And if you are worried about a country like Thailand reporting back to the US under FATCA requirements, you should be worried about any reporting on YOUR accounts. But not Thailand or any other country is going to report on its own citizens under FATCA. In many cases, unless it is a joint account, there is no reason for the bank to even know its customer is married to a foreigner, and a bank account is a spouse's separate property.

So unless your Thai citizen wife is living in the US, is a US green card holder, or has in some other way submitted to the authority of the US government, any requirement to report her seprate accounts in the FBAR is pure unadulterated bullshit.

[Ticketmaster]

The filing is done in two steps, you complete the form, save it and then go to the send part where you attach the saved file.

Ah, pmarlin, I see where you're coming from. They have a new way to Efile, that doesn't require registration and login. The old way still works (as I just did it), but the new way may avoid some previous pitfalls.

Important Notice to BSA E-Filers: Streamlined Submission Process for Individual Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR), Updates to CTR, SAR and FBAR Electronic Filing Specifications

FinCEN has streamlined the process for electronic filing an Individual Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR), FinCEN 114. . The new process removes the requirement for registering and creating an account on the BSA E-Filing System prior to downloading, completing, and submitting the report to the system. This process is available for individuals who are required to file an FBAR. Businesses, including CPAs, should register and create an account as an Institution on the BSA E-Filing System prior to downloading, completing and submitting FBARs on behalf of their business or clients.

Individuals can access the new process by clicking on the File an Individual FBAR on the BSA E-Filing Home Page (http://bsaefiling.fincen.treas.gov/main.html):

And a couple can now file a "joint" FBAR as before it they meet the requirements and of course assuming they have more than $10K in foreign financial assets. No need for the spouse, lets say the wife, to submit a separate FBAR if all the accounts she has ownership in are joint accounts with the husband.

But as before, if the wife separately owns just one account (with just 1 baht in it lets say) and jointly owns other accounts with the husband with all these accounts she has sole/joint ownership in exceeds $10K then she must submit a separate report also which basically ends up reporting the husband's and wife's joint accounts again...but the FBAR is not used to determine tax...just to report foreign accounts. But if her single owned account combined with the joint accounts is $10K or less than she don't have to submit another report...the joint submission covers her.

BUT, one should consider, the US Government has authority over US citizens. The US Government has zero authority over non-US citizens that have never set foot on US soil or otherwise submitted to its authority. A wife has no legal obligation whatsoever to share her private banking information with her husband.

Thus, any US laws requiring a non-US citizen spouse that has never set foot on US soil are nothing but an unenforceable wish, and there is no need to comply with them Such laws have no validity whatsoever.

And if you are worried about a country like Thailand reporting back to the US under FATCA requirements, you should be worried about any reporting on YOUR accounts. But not Thailand or any other country is going to report on its own citizens under FATCA. In many cases, unless it is a joint account, there is no reason for the bank to even know its customer is married to a foreigner, and a bank account is a spouse's separate property.

So unless your Thai citizen wife is living in the US, is a US green card holder, or has in some other way submitted to the authority of the US government, any requirement to report her separate accounts in the FBAR is pure unadulterated bullshit.

Edit: Over to you, Jingthing.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Ticketmaster

[Ticketmaster]

Well, hallelujah, it looks like I got a double post again. What's with this forum's software anyway???

[Pib]

The filing is done in two steps, you complete the form, save it and then go to the send part where you attach the saved file.

Ah, pmarlin, I see where you're coming from. They have a new way to Efile, that doesn't require registration and login. The old way still works (as I just did it), but the new way may avoid some previous pitfalls.

Important Notice to BSA E-Filers: Streamlined Submission Process for Individual Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR), Updates to CTR, SAR and FBAR Electronic Filing Specifications

FinCEN has streamlined the process for electronic filing an Individual Report of Foreign Bank and Financial Accounts (FBAR), FinCEN 114. . The new process removes the requirement for registering and creating an account on the BSA E-Filing System prior to downloading, completing, and submitting the report to the system. This process is available for individuals who are required to file an FBAR. Businesses, including CPAs, should register and create an account as an Institution on the BSA E-Filing System prior to downloading, completing and submitting FBARs on behalf of their business or clients.

Individuals can access the new process by clicking on the File an Individual FBAR on the BSA E-Filing Home Page (http://bsaefiling.fincen.treas.gov/main.html):

And a couple can now file a "joint" FBAR as before it they meet the requirements and of course assuming they have more than $10K in foreign financial assets. No need for the spouse, lets say the wife, to submit a separate FBAR if all the accounts she has ownership in are joint accounts with the husband.

But as before, if the wife separately owns just one account (with just 1 baht in it lets say) and jointly owns other accounts with the husband with all these accounts she has sole/joint ownership in exceeds $10K then she must submit a separate report also which basically ends up reporting the husband's and wife's joint accounts again...but the FBAR is not used to determine tax...just to report foreign accounts. But if her single owned account combined with the joint accounts is $10K or less than she don't have to submit another report...the joint submission covers her.

BUT, one should consider, the US Government has authority over US citizens. The US Government has zero authority over non-US citizens that have never set foot on US soil or otherwise submitted to its authority. A wife has no legal obligation whatsoever to share her private banking information with her husband.

Thus, any US laws requiring a non-US citizen spouse that has never set foot on US soil are nothing but an unenforceable wish, and there is no need to comply with them Such laws have no validity whatsoever.

And if you are worried about a country like Thailand reporting back to the US under FATCA requirements, you should be worried about any reporting on YOUR accounts. But not Thailand or any other country is going to report on its own citizens under FATCA. In many cases, unless it is a joint account, there is no reason for the bank to even know its customer is married to a foreigner, and a bank account is a spouse's separate property.

So unless your Thai citizen wife is living in the US, is a US green card holder, or has in some other way submitted to the authority of the US government, any requirement to report her separate accounts in the FBAR is pure unadulterated bullshit.

Edit: Over to you, Jingthing.

My wife has Thai "and" U. S. citizenship... If she had Thai citizenship only she would have no need to submit a FBAR in her name only.

Sent from my Onda V971 tablet

[JimGant]

Yeah, it's too bad the tax cheats impose additional paperwork on us.

...any requirement to report her seprate accounts in the FBAR is pure unadulterated bullshit.

Not sure what you're about.....certainly no requirement to file a FBAR for her seperate accounts if she has no US connection. Yes, if you have a joint account with her, her name appears as the primary joint account holder. And the block for SSN/ITIN is checked "foreign" (with no further ID numbers called for). And, if we were back in the paper days, she would not be required to co-sign your FBAR, as would a spouse with a US connection (thus, no Form 114A needed in these Efiling days).

But hopefully in your quest to avoid your NRA wife filing a separate FBAR, you haven't overlooked getting her an ITIN? If she earns little to no income, doing so will allow you to file your US income tax jointly. Savings? If your adjusted gross income (AGI) were $20,000, filing jointly would be zip taxes (2013 tax schedule). Filing singly -- $1,054 in taxes. AGI $38,000? Pay over $2,000 more in taxes by not getting her an ITIN. Yeah, by having an ITIN she'd then be required to file a separate FBAR for her individual accounts -- but worth it, in the above example.

And, actually, maybe she wouldn't need to file an individual FBAR. My wife's two individual accounts are under the same iBanking account as our joint account. Officially, that iBanking account is in the wife's name -- which is why my individual account is not under the umbrella of that iBanking account, and thus has to be filed on the FBAR as an individual account. So, it's my FBAR, with my one individual account listed. And for the joint account, the wife is listed as "primary joint account holder" (which she is, as the holder of the iBanking account), Her SSN and other particulars are listed, and the total of the individual and joint accounts, at their highest position during the year, is reported. She therefore does not file a separate FBAR.

Kosher? Maybe not. But there's no under reporting of fund totals. And the iBanking account number would certainly lead to the individual accounts being "held" in this account. So, no obfuscation of any sort. And I'd certainly be comfortable explaining how we saved paper in years past (and data storage currently). But, the chance of anyone reading this being the subject of the FBAR cops is zip -- no self-respecting big time tax crook has time to waste on this forum.

[JimGant]

In 2013, six Israelis were prosecuted for having undisclosed bank accounts. Most recently, David Raminfard of Los Angeles pleaded guilty on Nov. 4 in federal court to one count of conspiracy to defraud the United States. According to court documents, Raminfard, a U.S. citizen, maintained undeclared bank accounts at an international bank headquartered in Tel Aviv, identified in court documents as Bank A. For tax years 2005 through 2010, Raminfard failed to report approximately $521,000 in income. The highest balance in Raminfard’s undeclared accounts was approximately $3 million. He faces a potential maximum prison term of five years and a maximum fine of $250,000. In addition, he has agreed to pay a civil penalty to the IRS in the amount of 50 percent of the high balance of his undeclared accounts, for failing to file FBARs.

As has been said, the FBAR is just another hammer to use against the big time tax cheats. Under IRS tax evasion law, he faces a max of a $250k fine. Under FBAR, he gets hit for $1.5M. Chutzpah -- at least in this example -- doesn't pay.

[riclag]

I don't understand why someone who has several or one savings account in Thailand that exceeds the $10,000 thresh hold would worry about filing a FBAR, especially if they had transferred it from a savings bank in the USA to Thailand. I think peoples accounts here with money that has earned income from Thailand or other foreign accounts would be more concerned about reporting the facts. Maybe I'm missing something here ?

[rushrush2120]

Here is a guide I found about the different steps to filing for past years: http://www.klasing-associates.com/criminal-tax-defense/steps-to-participate-in-the-2012-offshore-voluntary-disclosure-initiative-program/:

[Langsuan Man]

I don't understand why someone who has several or one savings account in Thailand that exceeds the $10,000 thresh hold would worry about filing a FBAR, especially if they had transferred it from a savings bank in the USA to Thailand. I think peoples accounts here with money that has earned income from Thailand or other foreign accounts would be more concerned about reporting the facts. Maybe I'm missing something here ?

Yes, you are missing the point that FBAR reporting is the law and has nothing to do with reporting income

[kokesaat]

I've filled out the form online, but can't 'sign' it. The 'signature' block is there.....but nothing happens when I click the block. Any ideas?

[JimGant]

I've filled out the form online, but can't 'sign' it. The 'signature' block is there.....but nothing happens when I click the block. Any ideas?

Did you click "validate" first? If so, did you correct any errors mentioned? (You cannot sign until after you validate.)

Validate FBAR – Click on the Validate button to ensure you have all fields entered correctly. The system will prompt you if any fields need to be corrected or entered. If there are no errors, the system will prompt you with “This form needs to be signed in order to submit.”

Sign your FBAR – Once you have entered all your FBAR data, click the Sign the Form button. This will prompt you with “I acknowledge that I am electronically signing the BSA report”. Please click “Yes”. A PIN is not required to perform the signing process.

[riclag]

I don't understand why someone who has several or one savings account in Thailand that exceeds the $10,000 thresh hold would worry about filing a FBAR, especially if they had transferred it from a savings bank in the USA to Thailand. I think peoples accounts here with money that has earned income from Thailand or other foreign accounts would be more concerned about reporting the facts. Maybe I'm missing something here ?

Yes, you are missing the point that FBAR reporting is the law and has nothing to do with reporting income

Hi Langsuan, all I'm saying is if a US citizen earns money in a foreign country and deposits it in Foreign Banks and it at any time of the year the total sums of all or 1 accounts go over $10,000 and he avoids reporting it, that these are the people that would be more concerned.