Where to report child beggars?

[robblok]

Happy side note - that problem seems to have been properly solved at least in Bangkok, been years since I've seen one around!

A couple of years ago, I was working at Central Bangna. On the pedestrian bridge over Bangna-Trad Rd, there was a young kid who was sitting all day long in the heat and what not, begging for money. Every hour or so, a hi-so looking woman would come and stand about 20 meters from the kid. The kid then dropped whatever money he had collected in her handbag and that b**** would stroll away.

I still see beggars from time to time in BKK not often but they are still there.

[boosta]

"that problem" was only referring to the begging ELEPHANTS

The people are still there, each and every night.

[transam]

In the NE kids are walking the restaurants etc selling stuff mum has made. Noooooooooooo social security here chum. Folk do their best to survive, thats including feeding those kids.

[robblok]

"that problem" was only referring to the begging ELEPHANTS

The people are still there, each and every night.

Ah sorry.. begging elephants are rare indeed i seldom see them these days

[MJP]

I know many of us don't like the high rates of taxation in the UK/US/Aus etc or many aspects of the welfare state. It may not be perfect. It may not be sustainable. But threads like this kind of make me glad it exists.

Much of South East Asia is quite horrifying, especially regarding the abuse of children and the vulnerable. The "seediest underbelly" as one poster aptly described it in a related topic.

[boosta]

Still come though Surin every day, but then there are still hundreds left over from when they used to work the forests around there - which of course are now 99% gone.

Walking on paved roads really kills their feet, and especially the babies, breaks my heart, just as bad as abusing people IMO, maybe worse.

[boosta]

I know many of us don't like the high rates of taxation in the UK/US/Aus etc or many aspects of the welfare state. It may not be perfect. It may not be sustainable. But threads like this kind of make me glad it exists.

Much of South East Asia is quite horrifying, especially regarding the abuse of children and the vulnerable. The "seediest underbelly" as one poster aptly described it in a related topic.

??????? I don't get the connection

The problem isn't that the government doesn't have money to fix the problem, the problem is corruption + apathy, a combination of powerful and evil public officials and not enough Thais caring about the problem since the victims are foreigners.

[boosta]

In the NE kids are walking the restaurants etc selling stuff mum has made. Noooooooooooo social security here chum. Folk do their best to survive, thats including feeding those kids.

Feed them OK, but don't give them money. You can't believe they're working for "mum" unless you verify it personally, offer to sponsor a 1000 baht trip to the fresh market if you can visit their home or something.

In my experience the same "mum" will get rotated around with different kids over the years, the older ones don't generate as much sympathy as the cute little ones. The babies along Sukhumvit never grow up, I've seen some of the same "mums" now for over a decade.

[MJP]

I know many of us don't like the high rates of taxation in the UK/US/Aus etc or many aspects of the welfare state. It may not be perfect. It may not be sustainable. But threads like this kind of make me glad it exists.

Much of South East Asia is quite horrifying, especially regarding the abuse of children and the vulnerable. The "seediest underbelly" as one poster aptly described it in a related topic.

??????? I don't get the connection

The problem isn't that the government doesn't have money to fix the problem, the problem is corruption + apathy, a combination of powerful and evil public officials and not enough Thais caring about the problem since the victims are foreigners.

Yes, corruption, apathy but also the government systems and structure in these societies. The victims are not just foreign, they are also from the vulnerable classes within Thailand. Not that that should make any difference. At least with the safety net of welfare they would be less vulnerable.

Edited June 22, 2013 by MJP

[boosta]

I don't make that connection at all.

I don't think families going out begging is a major problem, obviously people will do what they have to to survive and a poor country like Thailand couldn't afford to feed the poor no matter how high their tax rates, such a small percentage of the country pay tax other than VAT anyway.

The major problem here is the human trafficking of foreign beggars in an organized-crime commercial money-making operation by police and public officials, in effect bringing in slaves who have to turn over all the cash they collect to their handlers in exchange for room and board.

Some of the horribly mutilated victims you see crawling along had their limbs chopped off on purpose when they were young to guarantee a higher daily take.

Thais wouldn't stand for that stuff being done to fellow Thais, that's why they're trafficked from neighboring countries.

They've got plenty of money to solve THAT problem if they wanted to, just that nobody has both the power and the willingness to take on the the police-mafia running the scams.

[MJP]

I don't make that connection at all.

I don't think families going out begging is a major problem, obviously people will do what they have to to survive and a poor country like Thailand couldn't afford to feed the poor no matter how high their tax rates, such a small percentage of the country pay tax other than VAT anyway.

The major problem here is the human trafficking of foreign beggars in an organized-crime commercial money-making operation by police and public officials, in effect bringing in slaves who have to turn over all the cash they collect to their handlers in exchange for room and board.

Some of the horribly mutilated victims you see crawling along had their limbs chopped off on purpose when they were young to guarantee a higher daily take.

Thais wouldn't stand for that stuff being done to fellow Thais, that's why they're trafficked from neighboring countries.

They've got plenty of money to solve THAT problem if they wanted to, just that nobody has both the power and the willingness to take on the the police-mafia running the scams.

I agree with your analysis. Do you not think this would be the same in Western countries were it not for the protection of the welfare state?

[Eesat]

Aren't all the beggars Cambodian? A Thai friend won't help. unless they speak Khmer.

If they're from Surin or around that part of Isaan they will speak Khmer.

[boosta]

The dialect of those provinces (also Buriram and to a lesser extent Sisaket) is called "Khmer Surin", and is close to what Cambodians speak in the border region from say Battambang area over to Siem Reap and north. "Close" in the sense that basic communication can take place.

Most of the trafficked beggar kids I've met as I said are actually ethnic Vietnamese from the Phnom Penh area, their first language is Vietnamese but they'll usually also have some skills in the PP dialect, but that's quite different, to the point they can't really converse with Khmer Surin.

And of course the actual infants brought over don't speak anything at all yet.

Most of the kids do end up speaking Thai pretty well after not too long, and in fact over the years their English speaking and listening skills are actually better than those of most educated Thais, so I guess you could call that a slight silver lining.

PS Only around half at the most of those provinces are first-language Khmer speakers, the rest are mostly Laos (passat Isaan) and a small minority of "Souay" speakers (different tone from 'pretty'). Sisaket I think 20-30% Khmer.

Edited June 22, 2013 by boosta

[boosta]

I agree with your analysis. Do you not think this would be the same in Western countries were it not for the protection of the welfare state?

Pretty darn hypothetical, but I'd have to say no, basic human rights issues like the abolition of slavery, child labor laws, health & safety regulations in housing & industry happened concurrent with rising standards of living among the population, usually led by campaigns by Christianity-inspired activists and privately funded charities leading the way to later government intervention throughlaws and regulation.

I see it as a cultural phenomenon, political and spiritual raising of awareness among the population, a focus on preventing criminal and evil being done to the poor through regulation.

That's a very different idea IMO from the government taking responsibility for housing and feeding the poor, and those developed much later, and of course much more so in European culture than in the US, where most still sees such ideas as dangerous and detrimental to the country as a whole.

TL:DR even countries that allow their poor to go hungry still prevent buying and selling of children and putting them to work begging in the streets to make money for their owners.

[Beetlejuice]

Going back 27 years or so here in Chiang Mai, I had an English friend, Scott; he was in his early 40s at the time and quite wealthy. Ex-SAS (for real this time) and a very kind, wonderful, generous guy. He would help anybody out of the kindness of his heart. I doubt if these types even exist anymore?

He and his Thai wife took pity on 2 young girls and a boy who were regular street sellers near where the couple lived and decided he wanted to adopt them.

Not easy. The mafia owned these children; the police simply couldn’t care less and had no intentions of trying to rescue these kids.

So Scott made an appointment with a high-ranking policeman, and literally throwing wads of hard cash onto the negotiating table, asked what could be done? So the police negotiated some deal with the mafia gang (for a price) and all was arranged. The 3 children were handed over into the tender loving care of the couple. Sadly one of the girl’s was so mentally disturbed and uncontrollable that she had to be returned to the mafia gang, but the other 2 children, although it was extremely hard work, eventually began to settle down with Scott and his wife as a family, and as far as I know, they all lived happily ever after.

But sadly, this is how it`s done and quite a lot of these kids are so well established to that way of life, that it maybe impossible for them to change and adapt into a normal family environment, unless forced into it. So it`s not just a simple case of taking them off the streets and introducing them into a family. One has to be truly committed, in which could be a long and uphill struggle getting these kids settled in.

Lost contact with Scott 15 years ago and if he is reading this post, would love to hear from him.

Unfortunately the Thai authorities and the public consider these kids of little worth, simply viewed as street urchins, no one either cares or is willing to take any responsibility for them.

Sad but true.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Beetlejuice

[MJP]

I agree with your analysis. Do you not think this would be the same in Western countries were it not for the protection of the welfare state?

Pretty darn hypothetical, but I'd have to say no, basic human rights issues like the abolition of slavery, child labor laws, health & safety regulations in housing & industry happened concurrent with rising standards of living among the population, usually led by campaigns by Christianity-inspired activists and privately funded charities leading the way to later government intervention throughlaws and regulation.

I see it as a cultural phenomenon, political and spiritual raising of awareness among the population, a focus on preventing criminal and evil being done to the poor through regulation.

That's a very different idea IMO from the government taking responsibility for housing and feeding the poor, and those developed much later, and of course much more so in European culture than in the US, where most still sees such ideas as dangerous and detrimental to the country as a whole.

TL:DR even countries that allow their poor to go hungry still prevent buying and selling of children and putting them to work begging in the streets to make money for their owners.

Thanks Boosta, that's a quality post.

[Eesat]

I have to say to the OP if he doesn't like the streetkids here then never go to the Philippines as it's a lot worse there.I've literally seen kids sleeping in the middle of the pavement outside Mango Square the entertainment area.They were so covered in dust and dirt you couldn't see them,I was putting a 20 peso note into the hand of a sleeping child there one night when a Filipino came up and told me I was a good man!

The reason you can't give them anymore is because they'll get robbed and beaten up!

It really is heartbreaking.

[boosta]

So Scott made an appointment with a high-ranking policeman, and literally throwing wads of hard cash onto the negotiating table, asked what could be done? So the police negotiated some deal with the mafia gang (for a price) and all was arranged. The 3 children were handed over into the tender loving care of the couple. Sadly one of the girl’s was so mentally disturbed and uncontrollable that she had to be returned to the mafia gang, but the other 2 children, although it was extremely hard work, eventually began to settle down with Scott and his wife as a family, and as far as I know, they all lived happily ever after.

-

Footnote - these particular starfish were saved, but as a result - their profitable purchase price from the mafia gang (really separate from the police, you think?) paid for another group to be abducted/purchased from wherever they came from an put to work out in exactly the same territory as before, few more starfish tossed up on the beach.

A great and noble sacrifice by your friend, yet no less net suffering in the world.

Just sayin', life goes on.

[DiNiro]

In Bangkok, I see the same beggars occupying the same spot for years.

Dropped off at 6 AM by a man driving a van.

It would be interesting if a journalist would set up hidden cameras, then place several beggars in these reserved spots at 5:30am.

Who will come by and throw them out I wonder?

BMA or police?

[boosta]

Only ex-special-forces types should try this.

Like the guy who wants to test water conductivity in the shower, I'll just watch.

[mogandave]

If you think the kids are part of a racket, the best think to do is to not give them any money.

I like to buy then an ice-cream, because all they can do is eat it.

[boosta]

Real food with protein and vegetables will do them "just a little" more good.

Too-sweet stuff for children is a very nasty western habit, why not just buy them whisky?

[simple1]

If you think the kids are part of a racket, the best think to do is to not give them any money.

I like to buy then an ice-cream, because all they can do is eat it.

It's a vicious circle, if the children don't provide enough money to their handlers, they are assaulted

[mogandave]

Real food with protein and vegetables will do them "just a little" more good.

Too-sweet stuff for children is a very nasty western habit, why not just buy them whisky?

Real food with protein and vegetables will do them "just a little" more good.

Too-sweet stuff for children is a very nasty western habit, why not just buy them whisky?

If I bought them whiskey, whoever is running them would take it away from them and drink it or sell it. The same with food or anything else. The handler will just run over and grab it away from them.

There are any number of healthier options I would rather give them, but they don't melt.

[mogandave]

If you think the kids are part of a racket, the best think to do is to not give them any money.

I like to buy then an ice-cream, because all they can do is eat it.

It's a vicious circle, if the children don't provide enough money to their handlers, they are assaulted

But at some point, the lack of revenue drives them out of business. If everyone quit giving them money, after a week it would be over.

[simple1]

If you think the kids are part of a racket, the best think to do is to not give them any money.

I like to buy then an ice-cream, because all they can do is eat it.

It's a vicious circle, if the children don't provide enough money to their handlers, they are assaulted

But at some point, the lack of revenue drives them out of business. If everyone quit giving them money, after a week it would be over.

What you you believe would happen to the children who are street beggars, handed back to mummy and daddy? No, just be assigned to another cruelty such as child slave labour; a very complex and sad environment for the children

[mogandave]

So what is your position?

An ice-cream makes them happy for a while, what are you doing about it?

[mogandave]

I see fewer beggars in Thailand than I do in the US.

[rene123]

I love children and was never blessed with having any of my own, but an elderly mentor told me about the sad situation with child beggars in Thailand and told me not to give them money. However, I have taken a few of them for a meal which they always appreciate. They don't view a woman as a threat.

[transam]

I have known some kids that walk the bars and restaurants for years and watched them grow up. One is crippled, lovely girl. Also a girl who is deaf and dumb , they earn cash to eat and probably take care of mum who is making the stuff they sell. 10 out of 10 from me as nobody else will take care of them in a society that does little for them.