Ecuador 'analysing' Snowden asylum request: FM

[lannarebirth]

"This Bush did it" harangue won't cut it. What a joke.

Does the NSA operate independently of the obama Administration? The NSA just does what it wants without regard to the President - Presiden obama?

obama and his operatives called Czars - plus the standard Administrative officers have had ample time to direct, control and rein in the NSA and to make sure the FISA courts actually function to protect the Constitution. Bottom line if the NSA has been overreaching the law - operating at full bore trampling over people's rights as Snowden alleges - then OBAMA is responsible ...

OBAMA has been the PRESIDENT since January 2009 - Bush left office the same day... Who is in charge of the Administration if it is not obama? Bush had no authority to direct the NSA after January 2009 what are you talking about?

Has the NSA been on AUTOPILOT since obama took office?

In my opinion obama and his minions got a full briefing of what NSA could collect if turned loose and they did just that.... The NSA has been under the direction of obama for 4.5 years - when the hell does obama take responsibility for his Administration anyway?

obama has allowed or pushed the NSA to make collect data without regard to the Constitution - either way obama has failed. obama either broke the law or he failed to do his job.

And that is what Snowden reported - that the NSA was out of control - willy nilly collecting data without regard to the Constitution... That is what this whole stick is about ...

Any time in the last 4.5 years obama could have issued Executive orders - even secret ones ordering the NSA and the FISA courts to strictly observe the Constitution and Bill of Rights - BUT HE DIDN'T.

obama is responsible for what the NSA has been doing for 4.5 years. Bush has not been directing the NSA officials for 4.5 years... Congress has not been directing the NSA officials for the last 4.5 years ....

OBAMA was supposed to have been directing the NSA officials for 4.5 years.... Was he or was he not ?

Please stop with the Bush did it - congress did it - cowardly excuse making spin spin spin - it is fast becoming a sad joke.

Read what Snowden alleged .... Dispute his points ...

The promise broken:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/509/give-the-white-houses-privacy-and-civil-liberties/

The thinly disguised run for cover:

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/06/21/todays-dog-and-pony-show-obama-to-meet-with-civil-liberties-board-for-the-first-time/

[Publicus]

"This Bush did it" harangue won't cut it. What a joke.

Does the NSA operate independently of the obama Administration? The NSA just does what it wants without regard to the President - Presiden obama?

obama and his operatives called Czars - plus the standard Administrative officers have had ample time to direct, control and rein in the NSA and to make sure the FISA courts actually function to protect the Constitution. Bottom line if the NSA has been overreaching the law - operating at full bore trampling over people's rights as Snowden alleges - then OBAMA is responsible ...

OBAMA has been the PRESIDENT since January 2009 - Bush left office the same day... Who is in charge of the Administration if it is not obama? Bush had no authority to direct the NSA after January 2009 what are you talking about?

Has the NSA been on AUTOPILOT since obama took office?

In my opinion obama and his minions got a full briefing of what NSA could collect if turned loose and they did just that.... The NSA has been under the direction of obama for 4.5 years - when the hell does obama take responsibility for his Administration anyway?

obama has allowed or pushed the NSA to make collect data without regard to the Constitution - either way obama has failed. obama either broke the law or he failed to do his job.

And that is what Snowden reported - that the NSA was out of control - willy nilly collecting data without regard to the Constitution... That is what this whole stick is about ...

Any time in the last 4.5 years obama could have issued Executive orders - even secret ones ordering the NSA and the FISA courts to strictly observe the Constitution and Bill of Rights - BUT HE DIDN'T.

obama is responsible for what the NSA has been doing for 4.5 years. Bush has not been directing the NSA officials for 4.5 years... Congress has not been directing the NSA officials for the last 4.5 years ....

OBAMA was supposed to have been directing the NSA officials for 4.5 years.... Was he or was he not ?

Please stop with the Bush did it - congress did it - cowardly excuse making spin spin spin - it is fast becoming a sad joke.

Read what Snowden alleged .... Dispute his points ...

Your post says "Obama" eleven times. I dislike being nit-picky but I kept reading the name "Obama" in almost every line, so after several lines I found I couldn't help but notice it.

Some certain people are simply hard core Confederates.

Congress wrote these laws, a Republican Congress, while Bush was president. You know, the Prez Bush who used the laws except the core provision that requires a warrant issued by a court of law, the Fisa court.

You know, Prez Bush and his administration that used the law without first obtaining the warrants required by the use of the law.

You know, warrantless abuse of the laws Congress wrote.

By George Bush and Darth, er, Dick Cheney.

Warrentless eavesdropping, surveillance, information gathering, secret intelligence illegally obtained, knowingly and willfully bypassing a court of law in direct contravention of the warrant requirement written into the law by the Congress - all that and more, by Bush-Cheney.

You know.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Publicus

[Publicus]

Through Snowden, Ecuador seeks fight with U.S.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/through-snowden-ecuador-seeks-fight-with-us/2013/06/24/2229ad52-dd07-11e2-a484-7b7f79cd66a1_story.html

A wanted man without a passport, Snowden could join ranks of unwitting airport denizens

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/a-wanted-man-without-a-passport-snowden-could-join-ranks-of-unwitting-airport-denizens/2013/06/26/b2745b54-de89-11e2-ad2e-fcd1bf42174d_singlePage.html?tid=obnetwork

Today the LA Times has a report on how NSA leaker Edward Snowden smuggled classified documents out of the Hawaii office in which he worked: with a USB thumb drive. This is interesting information because it flatly contradicts yet another detail in the Guardian’s reporting.

It’s possible the government is not telling everything it knows about the case, obviously, but it’s much more believable that Snowden used a tiny USB thumb drive to sneak out with the top secret information — and the Guardian’s claim seems to fit into a pattern of wild exaggerations that has characterized their reporting from the start.

We also need to be cautious of posters who want to become pedantic about Snowden possibly not having taken four laptops with him. Four thumb drives, or four laptops. So it's thumb drives. Why obfuscate by trying to leave it as an open question? It's very likely it's four thumb drives. Regardless, it's clear Snowden has lots of national and global security information that he is cheerfully providing to governments that are hostile to the United States.

Technically, if one reads the Constitution, Snowden cannot be defined as a traitor. Not constitutionally. A subversive, yes, under statutory law. But a traitor according to the definition in the Constitution, no. Not a traitor. A subversive, yes. A foreign agent probably but that's still less clear. Colloquially speaking, Snowden certainly is a turncoat. Now he wants to get out of the Moscow airport transit area to return on his own terms? Hell no. Homesickness, isolation abroad and loneliness is not a basis of a pardon for subversion. Nor is being a spoiled brat.

(BTW, this thread has gone completely out of control.)

[F430murci]

Hong Kong to Snowden: You're not coming back

http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/2471415

What Russia will say once they are done with him.

[Scott]

A number of posts that are formatted in such a way that it requires scrolling back and forth to read have been deleted. Please exercise care in posting material that is oversized.

Oh, and when you see a post that is oversized, don't quote it otherwise your post gets deleted as well.

[F430murci]

A number of posts that are formatted in such a way that it requires scrolling back and forth to read have been deleted. Please exercise care in posting material that is oversized.

Oh, and when you see a post that is oversized, don't quote it otherwise your post gets deleted as well.

Was it mine? I couldn't tell, but those case excerpts I posted were cut and pasted out of Westlaw so I have no idea about the formatting.

Too bad. Those were the most accurate bits of information in this entire thread.

[Publicus]

A number of posts that are formatted in such a way that it requires scrolling back and forth to read have been deleted. Please exercise care in posting material that is oversized.

Oh, and when you see a post that is oversized, don't quote it otherwise your post gets deleted as well.

Was it mine? I couldn't tell, but those case excerpts I posted were cut and pasted out of Westlaw so I have no idea about the formatting.

Too bad. Those were the most accurate bits of information in this entire thread.

It was good to read some legal analysis that cited statutes and case law instead of the same old droning and opinionating. Mushy minds base their opinion on their having an opinion. Can't do that in legal analysis and writing.

[Scott]

I believe it was yours. You are welcome to repost the information, but it has to be formatted correctly.

Some browsers can handle it, and some don't.

[F430murci]

This is interesting. Russia may grant asylum. I especially like this quote.

One prominent theme is the jarring notion that the old cold war paradigm the US-led "free world" versus the Soviet "evil empire" is being been stood on its head, and the US now looks like a ponderous, bureaucratic police state, while modern Russia has morphed into a beacon of hope for Western freedom-seekers.

http://m.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2013/0628/Russia-debates-letting-Snowden-in-from-the-cold-video

Haha, didn't they just throw a girl band in the glamour slammer for single a song in church regarding Putin. Actually, they shipped off to seperate jails 100s of miles from home so no family could visit,

[F430murci]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Edward Snowden's revelations about top-secret U.S. surveillance programs and his globe-trotting flight from prosecution have created an international furor, but there is one place the outcry has been muted: Capitol Hill.

Republicans in the House of Representatives and Senate, who have attacked President Barack Obama's administration over the 2012 Benghazi attacks and the Internal Revenue Service's targeting of conservative political groups, have so far largely held their fire over the Snowden case.

Even Obama's toughest critics have not called for heads to roll or set oversight hearings to probe how a 29-year-old IT systems contractor was able to steal highly classified documents from the National Security Agency, take them with him to Hong Kong, leak them to major media outlets and flee to Russia.

. . .

But the Snowden case is different. Republican lawmakers generally back Obama on national security programs, many implemented under Republican President George W. Bush. And extraditing Snowden involves other world powers - Russia and China - with which the United States has complicated relationships.

[url="http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE95R12M20130628?

Edited June 29, 2013 by F430murci

[F430murci]

Snowdens father on Today: He betrayed his government, but hes not a traitor

http://m.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/snowdens-father-on-today-show-he-has-betrayed-his-government/2013/06/28/d942d404-e000-11e2-963a-72d740e88c12_story.html

[F430murci]

Last one. This guy is generating great articles. Screw the politics! The were's Waldo aspect alone is very intriguing.

Also in the chat logs made public by Ars Technica, Snowden refers derisively to WikiLeaks, the anti-secrecy activist group that announced last week that it was advising Snowden and had paid some of his travel and lodging expenses since he went on the lam. Snowden was more disdainful in 2009, writing under his chat handle that it was irresponsible for The New York Times to have covered secret U.S.-Israeli negotiations: Are they TRYING to start a war? Jesus Christ. Theyre like WikiLeaks.

The word whistleblower might not apply to Snowden.

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2013/06/28/5532402/image-of-nsa-leaker-edward-snowden.html#storylink=cpy

[midas]

A number of posts that are formatted in such a way that it requires scrolling back and forth to read have been deleted. Please exercise care in posting material that is oversized.

Oh, and when you see a post that is oversized, don't quote it otherwise your post gets deleted as well.

Was it mine? I couldn't tell, but those case excerpts I posted were cut and pasted out of Westlaw so I have no idea about the formatting.

Too bad. Those were the most accurate bits of information in this entire thread.

according to who ?

[F430murci]

A number of posts that are formatted in such a way that it requires scrolling back and forth to read have been deleted. Please exercise care in posting material that is oversized.

Oh, and when you see a post that is oversized, don't quote it otherwise your post gets deleted as well.

Was it mine? I couldn't tell, but those case excerpts I posted were cut and pasted out of Westlaw so I have no idea about the formatting.

Too bad. Those were the most accurate bits of information in this entire thread.

according to who ?

Not me. All opinions from Federal Circuit Courts and NISA courts. I guess they are not so secret if I can find their decisions on Westlaw.

Direct quotes from controlling cases on Patriot Act, wire taps, NISA and immunity Bush granted telephone and Internet companies of civil liability for turning records over to government.

I will put some stuff back up tomorrow when I go into work. I was actually a bit taken back by the lengths Bush went to in 2007 and 2008 to make all of this legal today and he put telephone companies and Internet companies in a position where they had to turn anything and everything over.

[IMA_FARANG]

The longer this foolish man consents to be used as a political pawn of countries hostile the USA, the more hostility I feel towards him.

He might have been a real hero if he had the cajones to do what he did and face the music.

Now what he is mostly doing is weakening his own country. Yes, he's a traitor.

-------------------------------

He would never have had a trial. He would have been simply detained without any arrest and never be seen again.

"National Security" is the catch-all term nowadays that allows the I.S. government to get away with anything they feel like doing to anyone.

It;s all for your own good, but they not need to tell you why the "must" do it.

These days you just "disappear" if you draw the "National Security" card,

I don't call him a hero, I don't call him a traitor either.

And I personally can't understand why revealing the existence of an illegal government wiretapping program that is OUTSIDE of any laws is any violation of or a weakening of his own country.

If you decide to do something like he did you better expect to be persecuted by the U,S, government.

And no, I didn't mean prosecuted, I meant persecuted.

Legal safeguards are bypassed when the government plays the "National Security" card against you.

[F430murci]

The longer this foolish man consents to be used as a political pawn of countries hostile the USA, the more hostility I feel towards him.

He might have been a real hero if he had the cajones to do what he did and face the music.

Now what he is mostly doing is weakening his own country. Yes, he's a traitor.

-------------------------------

He would never have had a trial. He would have been simply detained without any arrest and never be seen again.

"National Security" is the catch-all term nowadays that allows the I.S. government to get away with anything they feel like doing to anyone.

It;s all for your own good, but they not need to tell you why the "must" do it.

These days you just "disappear" if you draw the "National Security" card,

I don't call him a hero, I don't call him a traitor either.

And I personally can't understand why revealing the existence of an illegal government wiretapping program that is OUTSIDE of any laws is any violation of or a weakening of his own country.

If you decide to do something like he did you better expect to be persecuted by the U,S, government.

And no, I didn't mean prosecuted, I meant persecuted.

Legal safeguards are bypassed when the government plays the "National Security" card against you.

Actually, everything he exposed was legal in US, at least what I have heard he exposed. In essence, he did nothing more than tip other governments off about what we are doing. This why Republicans are not going ape shit on Obama over this. The Republicans made it legal.

[lannarebirth]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Edward Snowden's revelations about top-secret U.S. surveillance programs and his globe-trotting flight from prosecution have created an international furor, but there is one place the outcry has been muted: Capitol Hill.

Republicans in the House of Representatives and Senate, who have attacked President Barack Obama's administration over the 2012 Benghazi attacks and the Internal Revenue Service's targeting of conservative political groups, have so far largely held their fire over the Snowden case.

Even Obama's toughest critics have not called for heads to roll or set oversight hearings to probe how a 29-year-old IT systems contractor was able to steal highly classified documents from the National Security Agency, take them with him to Hong Kong, leak them to major media outlets and flee to Russia.

. . .

But the Snowden case is different. Republican lawmakers generally back Obama on national security programs, many implemented under Republican President George W. Bush. And extraditing Snowden involves other world powers - Russia and China - with which the United States has complicated relationships.

[url="http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE95R12M20130628?

There's was an article floating about, I'll try to find it. showing that some of the NSA's leading defenders currently, Like McCain, Feinstein, L. Graham were at one time victims of wiretapping by that agency. Makes you wonder if the might have got flipped for something that was discovered about them yeah, i know it sounds conspiracy'y.

[SinglePot]

Ecuador cools on Edward Snowden asylum as Assange frustration ...

The Guardian-11 hours ago

In a message attributed to Assange sent to Ecuador's foreign minister, Ricardo Patiño, and other top officials, the WikiLeaks founder apologised ...

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies have been deleted.

[mania]

What a tangled web they weave

Army reportedly blocking military access to Guardian coverage of NSA leaks

[mania]

I'll put you down as a "meh" .

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/28/opinion/the-criminal-nsa.html?pagewanted=2&_r=3&ref=opinion&pagewanted=all&

This was a very thorough explanation

Thanks for the link

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies have been deleted.

[SinglePot]

OK. I understand the invasion of privacy issue. We all do. Freedom of the press, personal liberty.

These are great things about western democracy.

HOWEVER. We have a problem mission control.

Incidents like 9/11 make it very difficult for the US. The balance between protection of national security and infringement of personal privacy is difficult.

Very difficult for Mr Obama. I don't think his intentions are malicious. Do you?

Snowden revealed what he thinks, and what many others think, as wrongful activity. Ok fair enough.

BUT. How do the enemies of the US feel about all this criticism of infringement of personal privacy?

If Snowden wins the argument ...THEY win.

China has no issues with personal liberty for it's people. The concept does not exist there. There are no Snowdens in China.

All the time we are getting into heated debate and criticism of the issues raised by Snowden, the enemies of democracy and the US are rubbing their hands and laughing.

A very difficult situation for Mr Obama and a very difficult situation for us all.

While we fight amongst ourselves the enemy will cripple us.

[mania]

Incidents like 9/11 make it very difficult for the US. The balance between protection of national security and infringement of personal privacy is difficult.

Very difficult for Mr Obama. I don't think his intentions are malicious. Do you?

BUT. How do the enemies of the US feel about all this criticism of infringement of personal privacy?

If Snowden wins the argument ...THEY win.

9/11 was over a decade ago & a good example of once a freedom is supposedly temporarily given up

via declaring a National State Of Emergency or a document like the Patriot Act it is never given back.

It affords too much leeway to sidestep the Constitution & they like the option.

Both items should have been canceled long ago.

Whether Obama's intention is malicious or not his job description is to Uphold the existing Constitution unless legally changed.

As to your comment about Snowden & the terrorist I think it is backwards

If Snowden loses they continue to win. Because already they have reduced what America once stood for.

It is not how do they feel about the criticism of loss of freedom because, it is that loss of freedom they celebrate

Edited June 29, 2013 by mania

[SinglePot]

understand your point mania.

going forward, western democracy needs to be very careful

Countries with no history of democracy play a very different game

[midas]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Edward Snowden's revelations about top-secret U.S. surveillance programs and his globe-trotting flight from prosecution have created an international furor, but there is one place the outcry has been muted: Capitol Hill.

Republicans in the House of Representatives and Senate, who have attacked President Barack Obama's administration over the 2012 Benghazi attacks and the Internal Revenue Service's targeting of conservative political groups, have so far largely held their fire over the Snowden case.

Even Obama's toughest critics have not called for heads to roll or set oversight hearings to probe how a 29-year-old IT systems contractor was able to steal highly classified documents from the National Security Agency, take them with him to Hong Kong, leak them to major media outlets and flee to Russia.

. . .

But the Snowden case is different. Republican lawmakers generally back Obama on national security programs, many implemented under Republican President George W. Bush. And extraditing Snowden involves other world powers - Russia and China - with which the United States has complicated relationships.

[url="http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE95R12M20130628?

There's was an article floating about, I'll try to find it. showing that some of the NSA's leading defenders currently, Like McCain, Feinstein, L. Graham were at one time victims of wiretapping by that agency. Makes you wonder if the might have got flipped for something that was discovered about them yeah, i know it sounds conspiracy'y.

In my opinion the people are not sufficiently enraged or engaged ( and never will be ) to force politicians of any persuasion to make any meaningful change to this Orwellian trend

[SinglePot]

if you think big brother is watching you in the US, try living in China.

Obama's ok. So is his missus who didn't want anything to do with Mr and mrs Xi Jinping on their recen visit to the US.

[Publicus]

Incidents like 9/11 make it very difficult for the US. The balance between protection of national security and infringement of personal privacy is difficult.

Very difficult for Mr Obama. I don't think his intentions are malicious. Do you?

BUT. How do the enemies of the US feel about all this criticism of infringement of personal privacy?

If Snowden wins the argument ...THEY win.

9/11 was over a decade ago & a good example of once a freedom is supposedly temporarily given up

via declaring a National State Of Emergency or a document like the Patriot Act it is never given back.

It affords too much leeway to sidestep the Constitution & they like the option.

Both items should have been canceled long ago.

Whether Obama's intention is malicious or not his job description is to Uphold the existing Constitution unless legally changed.

As to your comment about Snowden & the terrorist I think it is backwards

If Snowden loses they continue to win. Because already they have reduced what America once stood for.

It is not how do they feel about the criticism of loss of freedom because, it is that loss of freedom they celebrate

Wrong.

Sidestepping the constitution is not an option.

Nor is it something we "like" or enjoy doing. It is not our evil plan.

I can't believe I have to say this, but I support the constitution and advocate working within it.

This discussion is unbelievable and off the wall. You people see Obama and his left wing robots everywhere, gleefully tearing up the constitution. There's no reasoning with you.

So just go ahead and rant on.....and on.......and on...................that I am the knowing and willful enemy of the constitution.

//// Flame removed ////

Edited June 29, 2013 by metisdead

[Scott]

Please get back to the topic, which is not about partisan politics, the Obama's, the constitution etc. It is about Snowden's application for asylum.

[SinglePot]

The plan to spirit the surveillance whistleblower Edward Snowden to sanctuary in Latin America appeared to be unravelling on Friday, amid tension between Ecuador's government and Julian Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks.

President Rafael Correa halted an effort to help Snowden leave Russia amid concern Assange was usurping the role of the Ecuadoran government, according to leaked diplomatic correspondence published on Friday.

Amid signs Quito was cooling with Snowden and irritated with Assange, Correa declared invalid a temporary travel document which could have helped extract Snowden from his reported location in Moscow.

Correa declared that the safe conduct pass issued by Ecuador's London consul – in collaboration with Assange – was unauthorised, after other Ecuadorean diplomats privately said the WikiLeaks founder could be perceived as "running the show".