Leaving Thailand with a dual citizen child

[Sammy5]

I am a foreign 32 year old female living in Thailand with my 20 year old Thai husband and our 4 month old baby. We’ve been married for 1 year and I had our daughter here in Thailand. I’m in Thailand on a marriage visa (non ‘o’ with a 1 year extension).

I need information from anyone that has knowledge or experience about taking my baby out of Thailand.

She has dual citizenship and a foreign passport for my country which my husband signed the declaration for permitting her to travel internationally. She does not hold a Thai passport.

She is obviously a Thai citizen and has been registered at the local Amphur and has been put in the house book. Both my and my husbands names are on her birth certificate.

I am thinking of leaving Thailand because my husband has become increasingly controlling and manipulative since our baby was born. He is a heavy drinker and is not helping me take care of our baby. He has threatened to take our baby from me and ‘go somewhere’ when I ask him to stop drinking or to help me. He has also been violent in our house. I’m really scared. This is not a safe or happy environment for our baby to grow up in.

I have supported my husband financially since we've been together. My husband’s intentions were to find work where we live because it is very rural and it would be very difficult for me to find work as a teacher. However he is not working and will not move somewhere with me so I can find work. He seems happy drinking all night and living off my savings which will run out soon.

I will need to go back home to work and I am sure he won’t let me take our daughter because he uses her to control me. I want to get him a visa to live with me in my country however it will take up to a year and he is regularly emotionally abusive towards me so I don’t know if I can wait that long in this situation.

Ideally I would like to work things out with him but if I cannot I would like to know what rights I have as the mother to take her back to my country with me so I can work and provide a safe environment for her and be supported by my family back at home. If I decide to leave will I be stopped at the airport, especially since I am here on a marriage visa?

Please no comments about my personal choices, I just need some information from anyone who has knowledge or experience of taking my baby out of Thailand.

Thank you.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Sammy5

[Mario2008]

The child has your nationality and passport and thus can leave on that passport. What is needed is the birth certificate, as that makes it clear why there is no record of the child at immigration.

While leaving immigration might ask to see permission from your husband for the child to leave the country. That is however very rare, normally showing you are the mother is enough. Questions are mostly asked when the child has a different last name as you, but the birth certificate shows the child is yours anyway.

Your right to take the child away are messy. Strictly speaking, you and your husband have equal rights to the child.

If your husband is violent, I would advise to leave for your own sake as well as the babies. Better is to have proof of his abusive and aggressive behavior. If it comes to a custody battle over the child it will come in handy and it will go a long way to get sole custody over the child, either in Thailand or in your own country.

It would be nice if you can work things out, but don't give him chance after chance after chance. There comes a point when you have to choose for your self and your child. And I have seen people (or their children) dead because they couldn't choose for themselves.

[Boo]

Get on a plane with your baby & leave. You will not be stopped by immigration as baby has your countries passport & presumably the same family name as you.

There is zero point you putting yourself & your child at risk for this man, leave & think yourself lucky you got out early.

[benalibina]

Get on a plane with your baby & leave. You will not be stopped by immigration as baby has your countries passport & presumably the same family name as you.There is zero point you putting yourself & your child at risk for this man, leave & think yourself lucky you got out early.

The husbands familyname you must mean. I hope than for her she has a passport with the same familyname as her husband's. Anyway no doubts about leaving asap.

[Sammy5]

The child has your nationality and passport and thus can leave on that passport. What is needed is the birth certificate, as that makes it clear why there is no record of the child at immigration.

While leaving immigration might ask to see permission from your husband for the child to leave the country. That is however very rare, normally showing you are the mother is enough. Questions are mostly asked when the child has a different last name as you, but the birth certificate shows the child is yours anyway.

Your right to take the child away are messy. Strictly speaking, you and your husband have equal rights to the child.

If your husband is violent, I would advise to leave for your own sake as well as the babies. Better is to have proof of his abusive and aggressive behavior. If it comes to a custody battle over the child it will come in handy and it will go a long way to get sole custody over the child, either in Thailand or in your own country.

It would be nice if you can work things out, but don't give him chance after chance after chance. There comes a point when you have to choose for your self and your child. And I have seen people (or their children) dead because they couldn't choose for themselves.

Get on a plane with your baby & leave. You will not be stopped by immigration as baby has your countries passport & presumably the same family name as you.

There is zero point you putting yourself & your child at risk for this man, leave & think yourself lucky you got out early.

Thank you so much for your responses. I think it's best for my daughter if I leave. As I implied, my worry is about being stopped at immigration. If I go I will have to sneak away from my husband and if I cannot get through immigration at the airport with my daughter than my husband will know I've tried to take her away and I will not be able to return to him, or leave the country with her, so I will then be in a worse situation than what I'm in now.

My daughter has my husband's surname on her passport and my name is still my maiden name on mine so our surnames are different.

Thanks so much for the advice once again. If anyone else has anything to add it would be greatly appreciated.

[Boo]

Take the birth certificates showing you as the mother. I would doubt very much that you would be stopped. I have travelled alot alone with my son withotu my thia husband, I have never been stopped but we do share the same surname.

Just leave, do it sooner than later, take nothing but your handbag if it means getting away undetected. I wont give you relationship advice but I think you know this isn't a healthy envirnment to raise your daughter.

Good luck.

[benalibina]

I really can feel the stress you must be under. All is about damagecontrol. This is a mental thing. The emotions, your comfortzone, might be different. Be strong and keep thinking to get in another comfortzone. The right 1 ! Alot of strength wished !

Edited July 2, 2013 by benalibina

[Mario2008]

They will check you as the tw of you have a different surname, but normally only to be certain that you are the mother. You proof that with the birth certificate, which you need to show anyway.

Checks if the child doesn't have the same last name as you are primarily made to prevent child trafficking. Once they are sattified that you are the mother there will be no problem.

In the unlikely situation that immigration will deny the child to leave, simply go to another boarder.

If all goes wrong, contact the Duang Prateep foundation. They will help you with shelter and protection.

http://www.dpf.or.th/en/

But I'm sure you will be able to leave without a problem.

[Jasun]

It sounds like a terrible situation. But 'sneaking away' from your husband as you put it, and taking the child out of the country without his knowledge, is kidnapping. Family courts don't like that kind of thing. There was a case recently where an Australian woman took her dual citizen kids out of Italy under the same circumstances. The husband lodged a complaint, and federal police came and took the kids off her and sent them back to Europe. You could lose your child over it.

[Mario2008]

It sounds like a terrible situation. But 'sneaking away' from your husband as you put it, and taking the child out of the country without his knowledge, is kidnapping. Family courts don't like that kind of thing. There was a case recently where an Australian woman took her dual citizen kids out of Italy under the same circumstances. The husband lodged a complaint, and federal police came and took the kids off her and sent them back to Europe. You could lose your child over it.

Judges don't like people taking the law in their own hands, but will consider the protection of the child as highest priority.

In the case you mentioned the father probably sued for custody and was awarded this by the court, giving the authorities reason and authority to act and have the children send back.

I also know of a case regarding US children being taken by the US-mother to the Netherlands. Yes, the mother was required to send the children back. But she had a good lawyer, who performed a trick in the Dutch court. The mother and children applied for asylum and were allowed to stay in the Netherlands despite the treaty on child abduction.

The mother can apply for sole custody herself in her home country, with evidence of abuse that will not be much of a problem. And who files for custody first can and will be very important if it comes to a custody battle.

[vento]

I know a thai woman which frequently travel in/out of Thailand with her daughter.

The thing us. Daughter have euro passport and Euro name and look more Like farang than thai. Mother dont carry birth certificate.

Never Any issues.

[cmsally]

Try and get your daughter a Thai passport. That way , in the future it will be easier for you to return.

Trouble is husband will have to sign for it, but maybe you can work that out.

Then the baby will be stamped out on Thai passport at BKK and stamped into your country on the foreign passport.

Remember to take the birth certificate and copy of house reg with you.

If you can't achieve the Thai passport, you can go out on the foreign passport. It would be unlikely as the mother you would be asked for documents. I've done it loads of times with my children (who are now grown up) and never been asked.

It might be possible to obtain a Thai passport at the Thai Embassy in your country. You could ask them what paperwork required to do it there.

[Boo]

There is no reason for the baby to have a thai passport. Baby was born here, when they leave the country just show the bc & foreign passport.

[Sammy5]

Thank you so much for all your supportive responses. I think it may be best to seek legal advice before for I leave Thailand. Maybe I can file for sole custody. However if my husband finds out I am doing this than I really will be scared for my life. If I leave Thailand without his knowledge I don't think he has the know how or finances to pursue an international custody case however his extended family might and as Jasun said in a previous post 'sneaking out' of the country with our daughter may not help my case. Does anyone know of a lawyer that I can contact that can give advice on custody in my situation?

Thank you once again.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Sammy5

[benalibina]

You try to do the right thing however your original post mentions that your husband is a violent man and that he threats to take your child away. I advise you to think your situation through, speak with trusted, neutral ??, people about it. If your child is in possible danger, LEAVE. Whether back home or to friends. Wellbeing and safety of your child comes 1st. Only you can judge if your husband is willing to listen, and act accordingly, to you, in the interest of your child together. Seeking legal advice you can do in between. Good luck !

[Boo]

Do you have proof he is violent & dangerous to your child? if not the chances of you getting sole custody is nil, you will at best get joint which basically will prevent you from ever being able to leave the country.

Your one chance is if you do it without his knowledge. Tread very carefully here.

[Mario2008]

Leave and apply for sole custody in your home country. Especially if you have evidence of abuse you will not have a problem in your home country. While a judge doesn't like people taking justice in their own hands, they understand the need to protect a child and the wellbeing of the child is their prime concern.

If you start the process in Thailand, the father can ask the judge to not allow the child to leave the country. That would be much more trouble some and you will have much more problems.

It isn't child abduction till there is a court order. When there is a court order a judge in your home country will normally have to follow the Thai court decision, which will include that the child cannot leave Thailand. If you just leave for your home country and apply for sole custody there, the court there will have full authority to look at the case in debt. While if there is a Thai court decision, the judge in your home country can only look if the procedure was fair but not look at the details of the case.

[Puyai]

Horrible situation. I was in shock reading your OP. I traveled with my son, without his mother and showed his British passport and a copy of his Thai birth certificate. There was no problem at all. I advise you to listen to Mario's advice and get out as soon as you can. Do what is best for your daughter and by the sounds of it, it isn't staying here.

Good luck.

[Lesley99]

This is a horrible situation to be in, firstly like what has been said above while you are waiting to make your move try to record his abuse towards you incase you need evidence later, I'm not saying hang around just to get it but while you are still there if it happens try to record it if you can.

I know what it's like to live with this kind of behaviour, my husband gets very argumentative when he's drunk, when the kids were young he would say if I left him he would take the kids to Thailand and I would never be able to find them! ! I won't go into details as my situation was different, we mostly live in the uk for a start, my kids are older now and the arguments are less now but it hasnt been great for them to grow up with that.

Have you got access to the document that your husband signed for the baby to travel internationally? I wouldnt think that if you had that along with the birth certificate and passport that you would have a problem.

Yes it is technically kidnapping but it's not out of spite but out of safety which is a big difference.

I hope it all works out for you xx

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[apiwan]

You could try the local immigration office.

Get the low down on what to expect at border. And what they advise.

However if you live in a small town be careful. Everybody knows everybody. Gossip

Sent from my GT-I9305 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Forethat]

Yes it is technically kidnapping but it's not out of spite but out of safety which is a big difference.

No, it is not kidnapping.

[eezergood]

good luck to the OP

[Jasun]

I don't want to sound alarmist, but you'll have to be careful about taking the children out of the country without your husband's knowledge or approval. It might not be classified as child abduction, but there are plenty of cases where children have been removed from one parent and returned to another for doing so. Here's a follow up piece on an Australian woman who lost her 4 daughters after taking them out of Europe away from an allegedly abusive father.

http://www.mamamia.com.au/social/60-minutes-did-the-australian-embassy-help-her-to-a/

[evadgib]

The Haig Convention (not signed by Thailand)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Convention_on_the_Civil_Aspects_of_International_Child_Abduction

HTH

Edited July 29, 2013 by evadgib

[Mario2008]

The Haig Convention (not signed by Thailand)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Convention_on_the_Civil_Aspects_of_International_Child_Abduction

HTH

The convention is signed by Thailand, also according your own link.

[WitawatWatawit]

Our thoughts are with you, Sammy5. Keep handy that number for the Pavena Hongsakul Foundation in case of emergency.

[onthemoon]

It might be a good idea to consult the legal department in the consular office of your embassy.

Sent from my I-405 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[evadgib]

The Haig Convention (not signed by Thailand)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Convention_on_the_Civil_Aspects_of_International_Child_Abduction

HTH

The convention is signed by Thailand, also according your own link.

Thanks. I may have mislead in my wording but I was actually referring to this::

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/147861/Child_Abduction_Thailand.pdf

Parental Child Abduction

In Thailand parental child abduction is not a criminal offence. It is

considered to be a dispute between the parents and a civil matter to be

settled by a court of law.

Thailand has signed the 1980 Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of

Child Abduction but the UK has not yet been able to enter into treaty

relations with Thailand. This mean the Convention does not operate

between the UK and Thailand. However, the Convention may be in effect

between Thailand and other countries.

Happy for MODS to amend my previous post.

Edited July 30, 2013 by evadgib

[cgphuket]

The child has your nationality and passport and thus can leave on that passport. What is needed is the birth certificate, as that makes it clear why there is no record of the child at immigration.

While leaving immigration might ask to see permission from your husband for the child to leave the country. That is however very rare, normally showing you are the mother is enough. Questions are mostly asked when the child has a different last name as you, but the birth certificate shows the child is yours anyway.

Your right to take the child away are messy. Strictly speaking, you and your husband have equal rights to the child.

If your husband is violent, I would advise to leave for your own sake as well as the babies. Better is to have proof of his abusive and aggressive behavior. If it comes to a custody battle over the child it will come in handy and it will go a long way to get sole custody over the child, either in Thailand or in your own country.

It would be nice if you can work things out, but don't give him chance after chance after chance. There comes a point when you have to choose for your self and your child. And I have seen people (or their children) dead because they couldn't choose for themselves.

Get on a plane with your baby & leave. You will not be stopped by immigration as baby has your countries passport & presumably the same family name as you.

There is zero point you putting yourself & your child at risk for this man, leave & think yourself lucky you got out early.

Thank you so much for your responses. I think it's best for my daughter if I leave. As I implied, my worry is about being stopped at immigration. If I go I will have to sneak away from my husband and if I cannot get through immigration at the airport with my daughter than my husband will know I've tried to take her away and I will not be able to return to him, or leave the country with her, so I will then be in a worse situation than what I'm in now.

My daughter has my husband's surname on her passport and my name is still my maiden name on mine so our surnames are different.

Thanks so much for the advice once again. If anyone else has anything to add it would be greatly appreciated.

With the foreign passport and the birth certificate showing your the mother you should have no problem. If asked I would say your going on holiday, this will arouse less concern.

[Mario2008]

The Haig Convention (not signed by Thailand)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Convention_on_the_Civil_Aspects_of_International_Child_Abduction

HTH

The convention is signed by Thailand, also according your own link.

Thanks. I may have mislead in my wording but I was actually referring to this::

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/147861/Child_Abduction_Thailand.pdf

Parental Child Abduction

In Thailand parental child abduction is not a criminal offence. It is

considered to be a dispute between the parents and a civil matter to be

settled by a court of law.

Thailand has signed the 1980 Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of

Child Abduction but the UK has not yet been able to enter into treaty

relations with Thailand. This mean the Convention does not operate

between the UK and Thailand. However, the Convention may be in effect

between Thailand and other countries.

Happy for MODS to amend my previous post.

I think it is better to say that the Thai government will not act if a child has been taken to Thailand and (also) has Thai nationality.

In cases where a child doesn't have Thai nationality they will act.