How big is this piece of land?

[canuckamuck]

My wife is looking at picking up this piece of land which attaches to the rest of her land. The landowner says it is 22 rai; my guess is it's between 11 and 13 rai. The problem is is that it is dish shaped and runs downhill. There is no Tabien bahn for this land, and it has never been surveyed.

I have included a Google Earth image where I have indicated the perimeter in green. The distance between the corners in orange numbers (I realize that the actual distance is different because there are slopes involved). And elevation points in pink, indicating the elevation directly beneath the corresponding number.

I don't remember enough geometry to be able to work this out. but I thought someone here might be gifted in that area.

Can anyone here give me their best guess, in square meters or rai?

[cornishcarlos]

Rent or borrow a little hand held Garmin...

We bought one for exactly this purpose..

Turned into a nice little side line doing land measurement for other people like yourself

[Jdietz]

Here's how to do it:

1. Divide the map into triangles (just draw some lines between known points so you end up with a bunch of triangles)

2. Measure the length of the lines you added (ruler on a scaled printout will do for this purpose)

3. Calculate the area of every triangle (use calculator here: http://www.csgnetwork.com/herontriangleareacalc.html)

4. Sum the areas

5. Convert into rai: http://www.convertunits.com/from/square+meter/to/rai

Done. If you need help at any point just let me know.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Jdietz

[PoorSucker]

[ThaidDown]

+1 for the Garmin

Ok Guestimate time....Seems like (sortof) equivalent to a 150x85 metre rectangle, equals 12,750 sq m. divide by 1600 = approx 8 Rai.

Even +/- 10/20 % does not make it anywhere near 22 rai.

Edit there are online calcs if you have better plot of points eg http://www.sketchandcalc.com/

Edited July 4, 2013 by ThaidDown

[bunnydrops]

Yeah, just taking the longest sides gives only 9 as I see it.

[canuckamuck]

@poor sucker. That is cool, I will try to get a copy of Pro.

@Thaiddown and Bunnydrops. Those distances are only from a top down view, there is a 30 meter drop involved, so all lengths are longer in actuality.

Everyone else thanks for your help. Maybe I will try out the GPS function on my phone,.

Edit to add: Running a GPS out there will not be so easy. The Google Earth image is years old. Currently the overgrowth is about 2 meters and thick. We took a walk through the middle and it took us about a half hour - and we both had machetes.

Edited July 4, 2013 by canuckamuck

[cornishcarlos]

The Garmin will handle the location and growth

[JulesMad]

Just a fast calculation:

minimum 10512 m2 = 6.57 rai

maximum 14355 m2 = 8.97 rai

Nowhere near 22 rai (= 35200 m2)

Good Luck!

[Skorz]

Remember, that you are only interested in the footprint (i.e. reduced) land size as this is what is shown on the title deed (the view of the perimeter if you were looking directly down on it from above). The land owner will undoubtedly have done a tape survey around the perimeter and applied some random maths to come up with the figure. In other words, the lengths of the boundary he measured with be the ground measurements along slopes (over boulders, around trees etc) with give a much longer reading than the reduced (or arial) view which is the proper and correct method for ascertaining the size of a land parcel in Thailand. Contact a surveyor with a theodolite for a precision perimeter survey that will give you both the reduced (correct) land size and the surface (actual) land size. Only pay for the reduced land size. Be prepared for a high degree of complaining and moaning from the incumbent land owner who will not be able to get his head around the maths.

[zaZa9]

If its cheap enough , tell the current owner you'll pay for his survey.

If theres no Tambien Baan , nor survey , how can you know whose land it is ?

[Estrada]

Maybe he meant 22 Ngan not 22 Rai. 1 sq. Ngan = 400m² , 4 Ngan = 1 Rai. From the map a rough calculation is Min 7.7 Rai max 9.2 Rai (if include 30m in undulations). On another note without land papers how can the farmer prove title. And is he allowed to sell the land. Be very careful there have been many cases of Foreigners being conned into buying land even with seemingly genuine Chanotes.

I would get the land department to survey it and then you will have the correct boundaries and number of Rai. You can then pay the farmer and get a Nor Sor 3 Gaw paper with which you can register full title as a Chanote (Nor Sor 4). If she has not got a Chanote on her existing plot also combine it with the land you are purchasing. There have been cases where the Wife's family took over the land and kicked her and her Farang husband off the land. Having no Chanote she has no proof of ownership, whilst they have squatters rights.

[misterphil]

It is 13,946 sqm or 8.71 Rai

Edited July 4, 2013 by misterphil

[misterphil]

@poor sucker. That is cool, I will try to get a copy of Pro.

@Thaiddown and Bunnydrops. Those distances are only from a top down view, there is a 30 meter drop involved, so all lengths are longer in actuality.

Everyone else thanks for your help. Maybe I will try out the GPS function on my phone,.

Edit to add: Running a GPS out there will not be so easy. The Google Earth image is years old. Currently the overgrowth is about 2 meters and thick. We took a walk through the middle and it took us about a half hour - and we both had machetes.

You don't need to walk around a jungle with a GPS when you have the figures. You need pythagorus here. Its 13,946 sqm or 8.71 Rai or there abouts, no where near 22.

[misterphil]

Remember, that you are only interested in the footprint (i.e. reduced) land size as this is what is shown on the title deed (the view of the perimeter if you were looking directly down on it from above). The land owner will undoubtedly have done a tape survey around the perimeter and applied some random maths to come up with the figure. In other words, the lengths of the boundary he measured with be the ground measurements along slopes (over boulders, around trees etc) with give a much longer reading than the reduced (or arial) view which is the proper and correct method for ascertaining the size of a land parcel in Thailand. Contact a surveyor with a theodolite for a precision perimeter survey that will give you both the reduced (correct) land size and the surface (actual) land size. Only pay for the reduced land size. Be prepared for a high degree of complaining and moaning from the incumbent land owner who will not be able to get his head around the maths.

I agree there will be a lot of complaining so you will definitly need the professional advice of a surveyor. You will be wrong as you are farang so get a local Thai surveyor to measure the land. Or You may have some Pythagorus teaching to do. LOL

[Skorz]

Maybe he meant 22 Ngan not 22 Rai. 1 sq. Ngan = 400m² , 4 Ngan = 1 Rai. From the map a rough calculation is Min 7.7 Rai max 9.2 Rai (if include 30m in undulations). On another note without land papers how can the farmer prove title. And is he allowed to sell the land. Be very careful there have been many cases of Foreigners being conned into buying land even with seemingly genuine Chanotes.

I would get the land department to survey it and then you will have the correct boundaries and number of Rai. You can then pay the farmer and get a Nor Sor 3 Gaw paper with which you can register full title as a Chanote (Nor Sor 4). If she has not got a Chanote on her existing plot also combine it with the land you are purchasing. There have been cases where the Wife's family took over the land and kicked her and her Farang husband off the land. Having no Chanote she has no proof of ownership, whilst they have squatters rights.

If the land was Chanote or even NNSG then the reduced area would be clearly shown on the title deed. This is likely BBT5 or SK1 in which case do not hang your hat on getting an upgrade so easily. It could take many years and a lot of back handers and even then the title you get would likely be fake, especially if a farang is bank rolling the entire process. Also consider 'neighbourly' disputes on boundaries. The locals have been farming coconuts on these parcels for generations and have their own set of 'rules and regulations' with regards to who owns what. If they smell money you'll likely get rinsed.

[timber]

There is not title to the land and the owner says there is twice as much land as there is I think saying be careful is an understatement

[MickGC]

Am familiar with this type of calc. I downloaded and imported the jpg into a CAD program and scaled to the correct size. The area is approx. 13600 m2 or 1.36 ha or 3.36 acre or 8.5rai

Edited July 4, 2013 by MickGC

[Sydebolle]

Make a land measurement by the Land office a contractual condition.

They'll put markers and work out the details electronically with second-hand equipment from Japan (that's what they did with me). Alternatively the triangulation is the only correct measure without gizmos to work out the details but 22 rai look definitely at least double the size 8-)

[SamuiRes]

Remember, that you are only interested in the footprint (i.e. reduced) land size as this is what is shown on the title deed (the view of the perimeter if you were looking directly down on it from above). The land owner will undoubtedly have done a tape survey around the perimeter and applied some random maths to come up with the figure. In other words, the lengths of the boundary he measured with be the ground measurements along slopes (over boulders, around trees etc) with give a much longer reading than the reduced (or arial) view which is the proper and correct method for ascertaining the size of a land parcel in Thailand. Contact a surveyor with a theodolite for a precision perimeter survey that will give you both the reduced (correct) land size and the surface (actual) land size. Only pay for the reduced land size. Be prepared for a high degree of complaining and moaning from the incumbent land owner who will not be able to get his head around the maths.

It really depends on the title. NSSG or Chanot. What you say is correct for NSSG as they are measured from aerial surveys. A Chanot is measured on the ground and takes into account slopes. This is why you often have more land showing after an upgrade of hillside land from NSSG to Chanot. If you think of an inverted right angle triangle, the top is the horizontal aerial measurement whilst the hypoteneuse is the measurement along the slope. The greater the difference in height between top and bottom, the greater the difference in area between the two.

Getting the Land Office to determine the boundaries is essential both with regard to ownership and size.

[Toscano]

Cornish Pirate was right to say get a garmin GPS , but didn't say that you walk around the land with it and it will give you the measurement .

My wife bought one for her son who is an agricultural contractor , in that respect farmers say it is fewer rai than it is .

The land will be registered at the local land registry , you can check with them the precise measurement , or get them to measure it for you .

[Rorri]

Divide it into triangles, work out the area of each triangle then add them together...simple.

[misterphil]

Divide it into triangles, work out the area of each triangle then add them together...simple.

Job done, 13,946 sqm or 8.71 Rai

[SOTIRIOS]

....he knows how many rai there are...he want to take you for a ride....

...and the slope is irrelevant in area.....

...at the same time...the slope is a big disadvantage...and undesirable.....

...don't feel 'charitable'....or that you have to prove something to him....

....I tried to cultivate 5 rai....(lent to me).......and it cost me some 50,000 baht to get nothing in the end...

..(probably a good thing in retrospect, as the specialty crop in question would surely have disappeared before I ever got my hands on it)...

....beware...beware.beware......

[Skorz]

Remember, that you are only interested in the footprint (i.e. reduced) land size as this is what is shown on the title deed (the view of the perimeter if you were looking directly down on it from above). The land owner will undoubtedly have done a tape survey around the perimeter and applied some random maths to come up with the figure. In other words, the lengths of the boundary he measured with be the ground measurements along slopes (over boulders, around trees etc) with give a much longer reading than the reduced (or arial) view which is the proper and correct method for ascertaining the size of a land parcel in Thailand. Contact a surveyor with a theodolite for a precision perimeter survey that will give you both the reduced (correct) land size and the surface (actual) land size. Only pay for the reduced land size. Be prepared for a high degree of complaining and moaning from the incumbent land owner who will not be able to get his head around the maths.

It really depends on the title. NSSG or Chanot. What you say is correct for NSSG as they are measured from aerial surveys. A Chanot is measured on the ground and takes into account slopes. This is why you often have more land showing after an upgrade of hillside land from NSSG to Chanot. If you think of an inverted right angle triangle, the top is the horizontal aerial measurement whilst the hypoteneuse is the measurement along the slope. The greater the difference in height between top and bottom, the greater the difference in area between the two.

Getting the Land Office to determine the boundaries is essential both with regard to ownership and size.

No this is not right. Chanote and NNS/NNSG are both measured on the ground, the survey drawing that goes onto the title deed is in both cases the reduced area. Chanotes do not take into consideration slope except in the process of converting the measurements from a surface to a reduced area, otherwise they would not be able to fit all the titles together onto a 2D map. I assure you this is true.

[Pib]

Doing some rough calculations/estimation based on the OP's picture I would estimate a little over 12,000 square meters or a little less than 8 rai.

[MickGC]

Remember, that you are only interested in the footprint (i.e. reduced) land size as this is what is shown on the title deed (the view of the perimeter if you were looking directly down on it from above). The land owner will undoubtedly have done a tape survey around the perimeter and applied some random maths to come up with the figure. In other words, the lengths of the boundary he measured with be the ground measurements along slopes (over boulders, around trees etc) with give a much longer reading than the reduced (or arial) view which is the proper and correct method for ascertaining the size of a land parcel in Thailand. Contact a surveyor with a theodolite for a precision perimeter survey that will give you both the reduced (correct) land size and the surface (actual) land size. Only pay for the reduced land size. Be prepared for a high degree of complaining and moaning from the incumbent land owner who will not be able to get his head around the maths.

It really depends on the title. NSSG or Chanot. What you say is correct for NSSG as they are measured from aerial surveys. A Chanot is measured on the ground and takes into account slopes. This is why you often have more land showing after an upgrade of hillside land from NSSG to Chanot. If you think of an inverted right angle triangle, the top is the horizontal aerial measurement whilst the hypoteneuse is the measurement along the slope. The greater the difference in height between top and bottom, the greater the difference in area between the two.

Getting the Land Office to determine the boundaries is essential both with regard to ownership and size.

No this is not right. Chanote and NNS/NNSG are both measured on the ground, the survey drawing that goes onto the title deed is in both cases the reduced area. Chanotes do not take into consideration slope except in the process of converting the measurements from a surface to a reduced area, otherwise they would not be able to fit all the titles together onto a 2D map. I assure you this is true.

You are correct sir. Land title boundaries/areas do not take into consideration the levels of said land. Is calculated on the basis of the earth being flat.

[Cuban]

Hope there is a prize for the correct answer.

[bigbamboo]

Maybe he meant 22 Ngan not 22 Rai. 1 sq. Ngan = 400m² , 4 Ngan = 1 Rai. From the map a rough calculation is Min 7.7 Rai max 9.2 Rai (if include 30m in undulations). On another note without land papers how can the farmer prove title. And is he allowed to sell the land. Be very careful there have been many cases of Foreigners being conned into buying land even with seemingly genuine Chanotes.

I would get the land department to survey it and then you will have the correct boundaries and number of Rai. You can then pay the farmer and get a Nor Sor 3 Gaw paper with which you can register full title as a Chanote (Nor Sor 4). If she has not got a Chanote on her existing plot also combine it with the land you are purchasing. There have been cases where the Wife's family took over the land and kicked her and her Farang husband off the land. Having no Chanote she has no proof of ownership, whilst they have squatters rights.

It seems strange that a Thai would not know to the nearest talang wah how much land they had. They are usually pretty obsessive about it.

22 rai and 8 rai is not even close so I would say just two words to you.... caveat emptor.

Edited July 4, 2013 by bigbamboo

[Crossy]

This tool may help http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-google-maps-area-calculator-tool.htm

I don't think it takes account of slopes but it should get you an order of magnitude.