Disliking everyone you meet in Thailand...

[hansje1980]

Sorry, I got a bit angry

And it was meant to the ones who really think low about the Thai people... As I'm half Thai and my mom and family here as well I do can get offended by some. Hopefully there are only a few bad farangs on TV, because else everyone would be feeding each other more and more stories from themselves, what they read of heard from a friend of a friend.

[metisdead]

A post in violation of this forum rule has been removed:

3) Not to post in a manner that is vulgar, obscene or profane.

[OldChinaHam]

Sorry, I got a bit angry

And it was meant to the ones who really think low about the Thai people... As I'm half Thai and my mom and family here as well I do can get offended by some. Hopefully there are only a few bad farangs on TV, because else everyone would be feeding each other more and more stories from themselves, what they read of heard from a friend of a friend.

I am offended by Farangs who know not much about Thai culture, Chinese culture, or Thai-Chinese culture that say things which are hurtful and untrue and offensive and inane about Asian people.

I have too many Asian friends, and also Asian people who I like who are not friends but acquaintances, that I would be ashamed to have them read these comments which you mention, in my presence.

I guess these comments are not by particularly bad Farangs, just ignorant and dumb as a post Farang.

I do not like these Farang, but sometimes I do not confront them either, because there seem to be many, to me IMHO, and confrontations grow tiring after a while.

Edited July 19, 2013 by OldChinaHam

[EyesWideOpen]

Sorry, I got a bit angry

And it was meant to the ones who really think low about the Thai people... As I'm half Thai and my mom and family here as well I do can get offended by some. Hopefully there are only a few bad farangs on TV, because else everyone would be feeding each other more and more stories from themselves, what they read of heard from a friend of a friend.

I am offended by Farangs who know not much about Thai culture, Chinese culture, or Thai-Chinese culture that say things which are hurtful and untrue and offensive and inane about Asian people.

I have too many Asian friends, and also Asian people who I like who are not friends but acquaintances, that I would be ashamed to have them read these comments which you mention, in my presence.

I guess these comments are not by particularly bad Farangs, just ignorant and dumb as a post Farang.

I do not like these Farang, but sometimes I do not confront them either, because there seem to be many, to me IMHO, and confrontations grow tiring after a while.

This thread is about Thai culture, and the interaction of farangs within that culture. Why are you bringing Chinese culture issues into this discussion ?? That makes about as much sense as discussing America, and then launching into a tangent of American-German culture, or American-French culture.

Just kidding......Thai-Chinese own everything in Thailand, so of course they must be included in any discussion about Thai culture.. :-)

[PaullyW]

Well, I don't fault people for having very negative views of Thailand and Thai people. I think what contributes to this is the fact that most Western values are very dramatically different from values that Thais have. Thai culture is really an ancient, less evolved (if I can say that without any disrespect) culture dressed up in a modern facade.

Are there Thais who are different from one another? Of course. Are there Thais who have some Western values? Yes. However, it's a numbers game. Anecdotes are only useful in person who had the anecdotal experience.

The vast majority of Thais will fall into a certain place on the bell curve of traits/tendencies. This is true also for any country. I think that Thais will generally fall into a place where they have almost no core tenets in common with Westerners. Below are some core Western traits and their Thai contrasts.

Valuing truth above conflict avoidance,

respecting by default all people one encounters rather than viewing people outside the group with suspicion,

honor to act and even put oneself in danger regarding injustice over ignoring it if it doesn't affect you directly.

So, what is there to form a deep friendship over? Most Westerners -- especially ones we would consider decent -- would have no solid foundation upon which to build a relationship with an average Thai. It's simply impossible to respect each other and value the way each other lives life.

I have not a single Thai friend (male or female, other than my wife). I tried in the beginning with all manner of Thais from all walks. The more I learn about Thai values and culture, the more protective I get of myself blocking Thais out. Personally, I fear getting close to too many who might skew my own values in a way that I would think is bad and primitive.

Edited July 19, 2013 by PaullyW

[PaullyW]

And to be fair, there are all kinds of things one can base friendships on and not everyone is interested in having very serious, deeper relationships with Thais.

I'm sure there are many Westerners out there who just want someone to casually chat with over a beer. Or someone to have casual sex with. Or someone to eat with on occasion. In other words, many people don't mind relationships with Thais that we would consider more superficial. And then some of us, like me, don't prefer superficial relationships.

[mikemac]

"I have not a single Thai friend (male or female, other than my wife). I tried in the beginning with all manner of Thais from all walks. The more I learn about Thai values and culture, the more protective I get of myself blocking Thais out. Personally, I fear getting close to too many who might skew my own values in a way that I would think is bad and primitive."...................................................................

Interesting comment, and it made me think of the friends I have made since first arriving in Thailand in 2005.

I made some good friends back then when I lived in Chiang Rai for the first 3-4 years, most of them from England, and they are still good friends to this day. But I have made some equally good Thai friends in that time, from all walks of life - bar owners, cleaners, security guards, janitors, parking controllers, shop owners, tour guides and even a civil engineer.

Not one of them has ever made me worry about skewing my own values, except some of the English guys who constantly remind me that I am an Aussie and do nothing back home except drink beer, ride kangaroos, shag sheilas and barbeque prawns.

I was lucky enough to have Irish and Welsh parents who brought me up to accept that the world is made up of many different people, with different skin tones, cultures, religious beliefs and mindsets, and to take people the way I find them, no matter where they come from, at face value.

Don't think too much

Edited July 20, 2013 by mikemac

[PaullyW]

"I have not a single Thai friend (male or female, other than my wife).  I tried in the beginning with all manner of Thais from all walks.  The more I learn about Thai values and culture, the more protective I get of myself blocking Thais out.  Personally, I fear getting close to too many who might skew my own values in a way that I would think is bad and primitive."...................................................................

 

Interesting comment, and it made me think of the friends I have made since first arriving in Thailand in 2005.

I made some good friends back then when I lived in Chiang Rai for the first 3-4 years, most of them from England, and they are still good friends to this day. But I have made some equally good Thai friends in that time, from all walks of life - bar owners, cleaners, security guards, janitors, parking controllers, shop owners, tour guides and even a civil engineer. 

Not one of them has ever made me worry about skewing my own values, except some of the English guys who constantly remind me that I am an Aussie and do nothing back home except drink beer, ride kangaroos, shag sheilas and barbeque prawns.

I was lucky enough to have Irish and Welsh parents who brought me up to accept that the world is made up of many different people, with different skin tones, cultures, religious beliefs and mindsets, and to take people the way I find them, no matter where they come from, at face value.

 

Don't think too much

I agree that it would be easier if one/I did not think too much.

I find that Aussies on average tend to emigrate and assimilate well. I don't know why. I suspect that it could be due in part to a generational pushing toward liberalism and the like as a counter balance to the many historical racial issues in oz. And maybe due in some part to oz not really being a culture heavy place having no strong culture of its own... Mean no disrespect by that. Irrespective of that, I think some of us will accept everything we encounter in a foreign culture and some of us will take a more balanced approach and evaluate things against what we value. I am the latter. I don't just accept things that go against certain of my leanings just because I'm in a foreign country. Neither am I so needy for friends that I am willing to lower my standards.

Cheers mate

[Docno]

"I have not a single Thai friend (male or female, other than my wife). I tried in the beginning with all manner of Thais from all walks. The more I learn about Thai values and culture, the more protective I get of myself blocking Thais out. Personally, I fear getting close to too many who might skew my own values in a way that I would think is bad and primitive."...................................................................

Interesting comment, and it made me think of the friends I have made since first arriving in Thailand in 2005.

I made some good friends back then when I lived in Chiang Rai for the first 3-4 years, most of them from England, and they are still good friends to this day. But I have made some equally good Thai friends in that time, from all walks of life - bar owners, cleaners, security guards, janitors, parking controllers, shop owners, tour guides and even a civil engineer.

Not one of them has ever made me worry about skewing my own values, except some of the English guys who constantly remind me that I am an Aussie and do nothing back home except drink beer, ride kangaroos, shag sheilas and barbeque prawns.

I was lucky enough to have Irish and Welsh parents who brought me up to accept that the world is made up of many different people, with different skin tones, cultures, religious beliefs and mindsets, and to take people the way I find them, no matter where they come from, at face value.

Don't think too much

I agree that it would be easier if one/I did not think too much.

I find that Aussies on average tend to emigrate and assimilate well. I don't know why. I suspect that it could be due in part to a generational pushing toward liberalism and the like as a counter balance to the many historical racial issues in oz. And maybe due in some part to oz not really being a culture heavy place having no strong culture of its own... Mean no disrespect by that. Irrespective of that, I think some of us will accept everything we encounter in a foreign culture and some of us will take a more balanced approach and evaluate things against what we value. I am the latter. I don't just accept things that go against certain of my leanings just because I'm in a foreign country. Neither am I so needy for friends that I am willing to lower my standards.

Cheers mate

I assume you are Canadian based on your avatar. I have lived in both Australia and Canada, carry passports from both countries, I have friends from both countries. I can assure you that you are wrong when you say that Australia has "no strong culture of its own." If anything, that would apply to Canada which derives it's 'culture' and identity from trying to distinguish itself from the US. [Quebec is an exception]. This is not a slight, it is a simple fact (I lived there from the age of 13 to 40+ and my parents were Canadian). So if you're right about Australians integrating better, it's not about having a cultural vacuum to fill.

That said, I suspect that if you come from a culture in which you are raised to believe that your people/system/culture is superior to others (I won't mention specific nations), then you will have a harder time adjusting. Still, there will always be individuals from these 'superior' cultures who are self-reflective and who do not buy into the notion that their culture is wholesale better than others.

[Docno]

And to be fair, there are all kinds of things one can base friendships on and not everyone is interested in having very serious, deeper relationships with Thais.

I'm sure there are many Westerners out there who just want someone to casually chat with over a beer. Or someone to have casual sex with. Or someone to eat with on occasion. In other words, many people don't mind relationships with Thais that we would consider more superficial. And then some of us, like me, don't prefer superficial relationships.

I see your point and would not suggest you are wrong. It will likely be harder--not impossible--to build deeper relationships with Thais because of the language obstacle and perhaps because people can keep their guard up on both sides due to their cultural assumptions. For example, you have some cultural assumptions about Thais (that I don't fully agree with), and those would hold you back from really trusting Thai people regardless of whether those assumptions are true. A lot of Thais will probably also hold assumptions about farangs (are aggressive, don't care about their families, are 'butterflies', etc.) which also reflect their experience with Westerners and 'Western culture' (which doesn't really exist). So there are obstacles on both sides.

But my question is this: you met and married a Thai person who you presumably have a deep relationship with. This shows that either you are able to get past the language/cultural barriers to form a deeper relationship with Thais or that your assumptions about Thais don't apply to everyone. Either way, it shows that a good friendship with Thais is possible for you if you are open to it and make the effort. Maybe it's that last bit--effort--that holds you back...

[PaullyW]

And to be fair, there are all kinds of things one can base friendships on and not everyone is interested in having very serious, deeper relationships with Thais.

 

I'm sure there are many Westerners out there who just want someone to casually chat with over a beer.  Or someone to have casual sex with.  Or someone to eat with on occasion.  In other words, many people don't mind relationships with Thais that we would consider more superficial.  And then some of us, like me, don't prefer superficial relationships.

 

I see your point and would not suggest you are wrong. It will likely be harder--not impossible--to build deeper relationships with Thais because of the language obstacle and perhaps because people can keep their guard up on both sides due to their cultural assumptions. For example, you have some cultural assumptions about Thais (that I don't fully agree with), and those would hold you back from really trusting Thai people regardless of whether those assumptions are true. A lot of Thais will probably also hold assumptions about farangs (are aggressive, don't care about their families, are 'butterflies', etc.) which also reflect their experience with Westerners and 'Western culture' (which doesn't really exist). So there are obstacles on both sides.

 

But my question is this: you met and married a Thai person who you presumably have a deep relationship with. This shows that either you are able to get past the language/cultural barriers to form a deeper relationship with Thais or that your assumptions about Thais don't apply to everyone. Either way, it shows that a good friendship with Thais is possible for you if you are open to it and make the effort. Maybe it's that last bit--effort--that holds you back... 

 

My wife is western educated and acculturated and quite unlike the average Thai woman. I consider myself lucky in this regard. Indeed she does not get along with most Thai women.

Of course it is possible with effort. But, who has the time? I have a company to run. If I was 18 years old, then perhaps it would be worth the extra effort. My point is that in a numbers game there is more difference among the average than one might expect back in his or her native land. This moving of the average can explain much of the social dynamics in the sex scene here as well.

[BradinAsia]

Well, I don't fault people for having very negative views of Thailand and Thai people. I think what contributes to this is the fact that most Western values are very dramatically different from values that Thais have. Thai culture is really an ancient, less evolved (if I can say that without any disrespect) culture dressed up in a modern facade.

Are there Thais who are different from one another? Of course. Are there Thais who have some Western values? Yes. However, it's a numbers game. Anecdotes are only useful in person who had the anecdotal experience.

The vast majority of Thais will fall into a certain place on the bell curve of traits/tendencies. This is true also for any country. I think that Thais will generally fall into a place where they have almost no core tenets in common with Westerners. Below are some core Western traits and their Thai contrasts.

Valuing truth above conflict avoidance,

respecting by default all people one encounters rather than viewing people outside the group with suspicion,

honor to act and even put oneself in danger regarding injustice over ignoring it if it doesn't affect you directly.

So, what is there to form a deep friendship over? Most Westerners -- especially ones we would consider decent -- would have no solid foundation upon which to build a relationship with an average Thai. It's simply impossible to respect each other and value the way each other lives life.

I have not a single Thai friend (male or female, other than my wife). I tried in the beginning with all manner of Thais from all walks. The more I learn about Thai values and culture, the more protective I get of myself blocking Thais out. Personally, I fear getting close to too many who might skew my own values in a way that I would think is bad and primitive.

Regarding your "core Western traits and Thai contrasts", what you state is probably reasonable from a Western viewpoint. From my experience, these Thai contrasts would probably apply to a number of other traditional Asian cultures, such as Japan, for example.

After 26+ years in Asia, I think East and West both have good aspects and "less good" aspects, but in some cases, I can relate more readily to traditional Asian cultures more than to the Western. To me, it is not a matter of the Western culture being more advanced or more developed, just different.

[mikemac]

Oops

Edited July 20, 2013 by mikemac

[mikemac]

Att' PaullyW -

"And maybe due in some part to oz not really being a culture heavy place having no strong culture of its own...".................

Did you not read the bit I wrote about beer, kangaroos, sheilas and prawns ?

"Neither am I so needy for friends that I am willing to lower my standards."..................................................................

You nearly got me there. You were joking when you said that ? Right ?

"My wife is western educated and acculturated and quite unlike the average Thai woman. I consider myself lucky in this regard. Indeed she does not get along with most Thai women."......................................................................................

Sounds like you met Mrs Right. A match made in heaven.

I was not so lucky, my wife is not acculturated having only been to Australia once for three months, makes friends easily and gets on well with most Thai women. She does not like the old woman we used to rent a storeroom from, the fat cow.

Don't think too much !

Edited July 20, 2013 by mikemac

[jpeg]

Regarding your "core Western traits and Thai contrasts", what you state is probably reasonable from a Western viewpoint. From my experience, these Thai contrasts would probably apply to a number of other traditional Asian cultures, such as Japan, for example.

Like, a Thai doesn't value the concept of honour in the same way, insofar as they will lie through their teeth and think nothing of it but are more laid back than the average Japanese?

And you couldn't imagine in your wildest witnessing a baby being tossed into the air and then caught on a sword, but the Japanese do have a very strong concept of honour? That what you mean?

[BradinAsia]

Regarding your "core Western traits and Thai contrasts", what you state is probably reasonable from a Western viewpoint. From my experience, these Thai contrasts would probably apply to a number of other traditional Asian cultures, such as Japan, for example.

Like, a Thai doesn't value the concept of honour in the same way, but are more laid back than the average Japanese?

And you couldn't imagine in your wildest witnessing a baby being tossed into the air and then caught on a sword, but the Japanese do have a very strong concept of honour? That what you mean?

Sounds like you are equating Japanese WWII atrocities with their traditional values?

Do you really want to open that can of worms?

How many war-loving countries can you name that have not committed atrocities in war?

[Benmart]

Thais trust absolutely no one.

I've not had the opportunity to meet all 68 Million Thais, so I can not comment one way or the other. What I can comment on, is from my experience, honesty or dishonesty knows no ethnic, cultural or national boundaries.

"Man is a product of our humanity towards one another".

[QualityTouristNumberOne]

This is most certainly not a go at the OP,as I agree with many of his points,

and its not really even a dig at the "negatrons" of TV either,

but there is a harsh saying that can be gently broken down to apply to many of the posts we see and disagree with on TV,

"If you meet an <deleted> in the morning-you just met an <deleted>...however if you are meeting <deleted> ALL DAY...then maybe THEY'RE not the problem!"

to break it down more gently,its easy to get disillusioned when your imagined Paradise turns out to have *SHOCK,HORROR* REAL PEOPLE in it,rather than idealised fantasy cutouts for your retirement or new home,

but try to think outside your own circle and not get dragged into a negative spiral(this is addressed to the Thai bashers,not the OP),

the only other advice I can give at this time is that apart from the Thai Bashers,Negatrons,Thai Apologists,and NORMAL HELPFUL people you will meet on TV there are also full time,professional TROLLS who if they werent polluting TV would be polluting another forum,so try to get your "Troll Shield" up to scratch,

apart from that OP,I would say take CPOFC up on his offer and meet what sounds like a great bunch of lads,for a good night out,and get some positivity into ya!,

[farang000999]

I am only 26 but I already hate everyone, farang and Thai.

[MrWorldwide]

This is most certainly not a go at the OP,as I agree with many of his points,

and its not really even a dig at the "negatrons" of TV either,

but there is a harsh saying that can be gently broken down to apply to many of the posts we see and disagree with on TV,

"If you meet an asshol_e in the morning-you just met an asshol_e...however if you are meeting <deleted> ALL DAY...then maybe THEY'RE not the problem!"

to break it down more gently,its easy to get disillusioned when your imagined Paradise turns out to have *SHOCK,HORROR* REAL PEOPLE in it,rather than idealised fantasy cutouts for your retirement or new home,

but try to think outside your own circle and not get dragged into a negative spiral(this is addressed to the Thai bashers,not the OP),

the only other advice I can give at this time is that apart from the Thai Bashers,Negatrons,Thai Apologists,and NORMAL HELPFUL people you will meet on TV there are also full time,professional TROLLS who if they werent polluting TV would be polluting another forum,so try to get your "Troll Shield" up to scratch,

apart from that OP,I would say take CPOFC up on his offer and meet what sounds like a great bunch of lads,for a good night out,and get some positivity into ya!,

No problem - thanks for the positive feedback and I accept the points you've raised.

[rct99q]

My question to you then is...Why do you have nearly 1,000 posts? It seems you just want people to like what you write by striking a nerve with some and being "on side" with others.

204 replies.........(205 with mine now) that is Amazing!! By the way.....have you ever lived in Texas? You might like it.

[jpeg]

How many war-loving countries can you name that have not committed atrocities in war?

AMERICA!

[stoffel45]

Mr Worldwide, you seem so sad and - well, jaded.

Recommend you spend just 6 months in, say, Belgium.

You'll soon be Howling for Thailand - including its faults. Promise!

[Neeranam]

Many here feel very insecure or scared of surviving in a country that they are not familiar with.

When feeling insecure it can be very comforting to many 'unconscious minds' to criticize others to falsely boost their own egos.

The retired big fish suddenly finds himself as the little fish with no power in a terrifyingly huge pond.

Surrender to what you can't understand or change. Take action to improve what you can understand by reading books or forums about Thailand and it's people/culture. Spend time usefully by learning the language, going to the temple to meditate or whatever, instead of replying to useless threads on forums.

TOTAL acceptance of what IS is the answer. Do not resist anything - surrender - all judgement and negativity will dissolve.

[MrWorldwide]

Mr Worldwide, you seem so sad and - well, jaded.

Recommend you spend just 6 months in, say, Belgium.

You'll soon be Howling for Thailand - including its faults. Promise!

That first post wasn't aimed at Thailand or it's people : I *think* some got that and some clearly didn't - apologies for any confusion.

[BradinAsia]

How many war-loving countries can you name that have not committed atrocities in war?

AMERICA!

Obviously, you being facetious.

[jpinx]

How many war-loving countries can you name that have not committed atrocities in war?

AMERICA!

Obviously, you being facetious.

You can say that again !!!

[Kudel]

Mr Worldwide, you seem so sad and - well, jaded.

Recommend you spend just 6 months in, say, Belgium.

You'll soon be Howling for Thailand - including its faults. Promise!

So what's wrong with Belgium?Not all of us live in ghetto's in Belgium you know.

I know a lot of Belgians in Thailand complaining about their country calling themselves expats but still have an adress registerd in the old country with a family member because of fear of losing certain monetary benefits ,but at the same time are married to a Thai woman and complaining about foreigners getting benefits in Belgium.I now a few Belgians who have gotten themselves in trouble in Thailand and where o so happy to return here on the account of taxpayers money apperently many lose the plot in Los .

People who are still registered in Belgium are not expats in my book.

[MrWorldwide]

My question to you then is...Why do you have nearly 1,000 posts? It seems you just want people to like what you write by striking a nerve with some and being "on side" with others.

204 replies.........(205 with mine now) that is Amazing!! By the way.....have you ever lived in Texas? You might like it.

This thread was dying a natural death earlier today - and I was completely happy for that to happen. I've had my say, and I don't care how many liked (or hated) it - several of the critics chose to play the man and not the ball, but it's just keystrokes consigned to a hard drive .I've responded to several people - mainly those with something constructive to say - but very few TVers responded to the key question I posed in that first thread, and that's showbiz.

If the mods were to close or delete it, it wouldn't worry me in the slightest - I had my little dummy spit and was told to move on - I'm happy to do so.

[deesquared]

Mr WorldWide,
Thank you!! I have often wondered why so many people on TV are so jaded. If they hate Thais and Thailand so much, why are they here. I happen to love this place, and it's people. Sure, I get frustrated sometimes. But that is because I am living in THEIR culture. It is not wrong, it is different. Now, three years on, it's amazing how much easier to live here it now that I have learned to read, write and speak the language. It has opened my eyes to things I would have never seen and helped me to understand the things that frustrated me.