self defence

[kriswillems]

We have the following problem. We have 2 very successful businesses in 2 business buildings that are located on the same street. Both businesses are very close together, and are only separated by 1 building that is between our 2 businesses. The building between is competition. The shop between our businesses sells very little and it's very likely his main source of income is selling drugs, and his 2 employers, both members of a motorcycle gang, are couriers. The shop is just a cover up to explain his wealth. Police already went to search his house, but they didn't find anything.

Although the shop between our 2 shop sells very little, he feels upset and jealous when we sell a lot. One time he hired a guy to beat up the father of my wife who is more than 70 years old and never hurt anybody in his live or never even said any bad word to anyone. The guy that beat him up died (of natural causes) and we had a party that day. Since then things have been quiet and there were not much problems.

Recently his sales went down a lot because his employers look like Mafia guys and no customers are brave enough to enter his shop and because we only recently bought our second branch, which took over a lot of his customers.

Yesterday, he hired a big, tattooed long haired, nervously smoking, bad smelling mafia guy to come to impress us. He also hired one employer to annoy our employers (women) when they walk past his shop (which they do about 100 times per day). Both of our employers are pretty bored with it.

After a little dispute yesterday (me telling his employer that he should stop annoying the women), the mafai guy came, after which we called the police. The police said that he was not brave enough to go alone into his shop to talk to them, but if something happened they would all be in jail because he was sure all of them would piss purple, so it would be easy to catch them. As soon as the police appeared the mafia guy was gone.

We have full co-operation of the police, and in case we would call them they would sent a fast/special team. But in the mean time, we have to go on with our business and we have to protect ourselves. Next week I am going to connect a CCTV system. Are there other ways to protect ourselves?

Ironically, we all sells product related to religion.

Moving is no option, but there might be possibility to buy the building in which his business is located.

We are only afraid that we would die if we would do that.

[theblether]

What did your Thai friends say?

[kriswillems]

Most of them just say that we should try not to escalate the problem, which I am not planning. (But, they should stop annoying the employers.)

Edited July 20, 2013 by kriswillems

[benalibina]

Life can mean nothing for some. Loosing face does not make it easy for them. Be strong and brave till a certain extend. Ignore them as much as possible. Good luck.

[arthurwait]

Is this gang Thai or farang ?

[slapout]

get the biggest meanest trained guard dog, that will respond to sic em. put him on patrol with the help and make a comfortable spot in front of both shops for him.. Be sure and specify you want a crotch bitter when you go shopping for the dog.

[Tywais]

Hire a security guard, either policeman (preferable) or former policeman.

[kriswillems]

The gang is Thai. There are almost no farang where I live.

The costs of hiring a full time policeman is too high. But we did make the police park their car and talk to us in front of his shop. They are very aware of the fact the police is at our side. Since things escalated a bit yesterday, and the mafia and police came, it's very well possible they'll keep a low profile for now and the problem is temporarily solved. But we should do something to protect ourselves for now. The police adviced the CCTV system. They said that if they would only touch us with one finger they would be in jail for a long time.

It are business buildings in busy city area, having a dog is no option.

[chrisinth]

Have your employees carry a Dictaphone or have their voice recorder on their phones switched on when walking past their premises to record what is being said to or about them. Keep a dated record of all events you consider relevant to harassment, including when you reported, and visits by the police. It will not stop what is happening, but will be necessary if it becomes a legal battle.

Installing CCTV is always a good idea, but remember it is not really a defense and more of a deterrent. Without trying to be dramatic, it will not stop a beating or a robbery, only provide images to identify the assailant or thief which may prove little comfort to the damage already done.

That would be the passive approach which you have indicated you are going to follow. Where are you located?

[arthurwait]

You can pay the police to come to your property a couple of times a day and put a box up for them to sign everytime, which should put the gang off.

[jpinx]

CCTV is a *must* ! Make an installation of some big obvious cameras and also have some very discrete small ones which can see the big ones - so you will know who broke them

You say buying the building is possible, I'd start to find some thai friends or a company who will buy the building without the current occupants being able to trace the purchase to you or your family.

Do not attempt to resolve anything physically, it will probably end very badly. As the police say - call them every single time there is anything to report. The police will probably get tired of the charade and do something about it themselves.

Good luck in the Land of Smiles

[kriswillems]

CCTV is a *must* ! Make an installation of some big obvious cameras and also have some very discrete small ones which can see the big ones - so you will know who broke them

You say buying the building is possible, I'd start to find some thai friends or a company who will buy the building without the current occupants being able to trace the purchase to you or your family.

Do not attempt to resolve anything physically, it will probably end very badly. As the police say - call them every single time there is anything to report. The police will probably get tired of the charade and do something about it themselves.

Good luck in the Land of Smiles

It would be rather easy to find out who bought the building, because if we would buy it we would open our third branch in that building. Just leaving it empty would be a very expensive solution.

In some way we're happy to have him as a competitor because he's doing so bad. When customers compare the shops, they will almost always enter our shop. Have bad competition is in some way also a blessing The only thing I want is that they stop annoying the employees and leave us alone.

Edited July 20, 2013 by kriswillems

[jpinx]

CCTV is a *must* ! Make an installation of some big obvious cameras and also have some very discrete small ones which can see the big ones - so you will know who broke them

You say buying the building is possible, I'd start to find some thai friends or a company who will buy the building without the current occupants being able to trace the purchase to you or your family.

Do not attempt to resolve anything physically, it will probably end very badly. As the police say - call them every single time there is anything to report. The police will probably get tired of the charade and do something about it themselves.

Good luck in the Land of Smiles

It would be rather easy to find out who bought the building, because if we would buy it we would open our third branch in that building. Just leaving it empty would be a very expensive solution.

In some way we're happy to have him as a competitor because he's doing so bad. When customers compare the shops, they will almost always enter our shop. Have bad competition is in some way also a blessing The only thing I want is that they stop annoying the employees and leave us alone.

Fair comment about having bad competition, but you have to weigh the harrassment against that. Does your competitor rent his shop or own it ? If it is rented and you can buy it with him as a sitting tenant - then the tables are turned

[Beetlejuice]

To the OP:

if this story is true, are you the legal owner or using Thai names to front your business?

When foreigners begin treading on a Thais turf they rarely win and you are standing on dangerous ground here.

The attitude of the police is, we`ll take action if and when something bad happens, such as your business premises are set on fire, you are seriously injured or killed. If your business activities here are not strictly legit and squeaky clean and the disputes escalate, there may be big problems for you ahead.

Personally, I would not want to be in your situation or an owner or your businesses even if you offered to hand them to me for free.

My advice is if this story is fact, is to get out now while the going is good, while you are still physically able to walk away from it or a member or your family or employees get hurt.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Beetlejuice

[PaullyW]

I would say the most important thing for you to do is to avoid any and all involvement. If they are who you think they are, your life will mean nothing to them to take.

If you can relocate, that is probably best. And, that is the Thai way anyway. I know it's not a great answer, but if you value your health, I would not try to get too involved in intervening And, please be wary of the police -- who might actually not be on your side.

[Gsxrnz]

Your competitor must be a bit thick. If he really wanted to cause you problems he should be hassling your customers, not your employees (note - not employERS).

You have four choices.

Firstly, accept what is happening and hope/pray it doesn't escalate.

Secondly, find a bigger/badder/meaner mafia import from BKK or Pattaya to put the frighteners on him - up to you how much "frightening" you want dished out.

Thirdly, take the earliest opportunity to vacate/relocate your business in town.

Fourthly, walk away.

[kevvy]

what is more important walk away with your life or walk into a grave . this is a serious situation you have .

[kriswillems]

The business is a family business.

All the buildings are owned by the temple. We buy the right to hire them (forever) for a very low price (2000B/month).

My wife and I own the right on one building, my wife's mother owns the second building. My wife is the business owner.

When talking about "buying the building", I mean buying the right from the person that currently holds the right (which is not our neighbour).

The business is there for more than 20 years, but we recently bought the second branch. His shop is now squeezed between our shops. It's very successful (think about an income that's even good according to western standards).

For a moment I thought about hiring bigger mafia. I was a regular visitor of Thai prisoners (and I still know them after they got out). But I don't think that's a good option. It could end very bad.

I am 100% sure the police is on our side, but I doubt that they dare to do something or get involved.

Our business is 100% legal and clean. There's nothing to hide.

Thanks to all for your advice. I'll try to protect the employees by the CCTV system and I myself carry something with me to protect myself in case of an attack.

For now there's not much more we can do. I think things will eventually calm down. The neighbours have already been there for 6 or 7 years, and the last 5 years have been calm.

Edited July 20, 2013 by kriswillems

[vtjforyou]

Paying a big guy costs 20000 thb / month, why not just having a permanent bodyguard ?

[kriswillems]

Paying a big guy costs 20000 thb / month, why not just having a permanent bodyguard ?

It's a shop selling things about religion ....

Customers are old ladies, office workers, students, families, they already literary run away when they see a farang.

When they see a body guard (big guy) or police in the shop they get a heart attack.

Also, paying 20000B per month to police or body guard is not a small amount of money. I don't think this could be a permanent solution. But would be ok for a few days.

My solution, for today, is not show my face or go to the shop, because they clearly want to get me.

[Beetlejuice]

The business is a family business.

All the buildings are owned by the temple. We buy the right to hire them (forever) for a very low price (2000B/month).

My wife and I own the right on one building, my wife's mother owns the second building. My wife is the business owner.

When talking about "buying the building", I mean buying the right from the person that currently holds the right (which is not our neighbour).

The business is there for more than 20 years, but we recently bought the second branch. His shop is now squeezed between our shops. It's very successful (think about an income that's even good according to western standards).

For a moment I thought about hiring bigger mafia. I was a regular visitor of Thai prisoners (and I still know them after they got out). But I don't think that's a good option. It could end very bad.

I am 100% sure the police is on our side, but I doubt that they dare to do something or get involved.

Our business is 100% legal and clean. There's nothing to hide.

Thanks to all for your advice. I'll try to protect the employees by the CCTV system and I myself carry something with me to protect myself in case of an attack.

For now there's not much more we can do. I think things will eventually calm down. The neighbours have already been there for 6 or 7 years, and the last 5 years have been calm.

How can you own the right to the building in your name?

Your wife is the business owner. Does this mean you have not plied any of your own monies into the business, are not enjoying any of the proceeds from the business and are not involved? Somehow I doubt it because you mention, we recently bought the second branch, and this appears to be another Thai named financially farang backed business enterprise.

You describe your competitors as mafia, but in fact you are conducting a business on Temple property and dealing in (according to you) Thai religious artifacts, which is normally a closed shop to farangs, you are in fact muscling in on their territory.

If you doubt the police will get involved, than in fact they are not on your side, but are remaining neutral. If any problems do transpire, you will have to explain and show evidence that your business activities are all strictly above board, both to the police and if this matter goes to court. Take matters into your own hands and you could find yourself facing the wrath of the locals and your competitors family and mates or in jail before you have time to say; WTH.

You seem so sure of yourself and wishing you good luck with your business venue, you are going to need it.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Beetlejuice

[kriswillems]

The business is a family business.

All the buildings are owned by the temple. We buy the right to hire them (forever) for a very low price (2000B/month).

My wife and I own the right on one building, my wife's mother owns the second building. My wife is the business owner.

When talking about "buying the building", I mean buying the right from the person that currently holds the right (which is not our neighbour).

The business is there for more than 20 years, but we recently bought the second branch. His shop is now squeezed between our shops. It's very successful (think about an income that's even good according to western standards).

For a moment I thought about hiring bigger mafia. I was a regular visitor of Thai prisoners (and I still know them after they got out). But I don't think that's a good option. It could end very bad.

I am 100% sure the police is on our side, but I doubt that they dare to do something or get involved.

Our business is 100% legal and clean. There's nothing to hide.

Thanks to all for your advice. I'll try to protect the employees by the CCTV system and I myself carry something with me to protect myself in case of an attack.

For now there's not much more we can do. I think things will eventually calm down. The neighbours have already been there for 6 or 7 years, and the last 5 years have been calm.

How can you own the right to the building in your name?

Your wife is the business owner. Does this mean you have not plied any of your own monies into the business, are not enjoying any of the proceeds from the business and are not involved? Somehow I doubt it because you mention, we recently bought the second branch, and this appears to be another Thai named financially farang backed business enterprise.

You describe your competitors as mafia, but in fact you are conducting a business on Temple property and dealing in (according to you) Thai religious artifacts, which is normally a closed shop to farangs, you are in fact muscling in on their territory.

If you doubt the police will get involved, than in fact they are not on your side, but are remaining neutral. If any problems do transpire, you will have to explain and show evidence that your business activities are all strictly above board, both to the police and if this matter goes to court. Take matters into your own hands and you could find yourself facing the wrath of the locals and your competitors family and mates or in jail before you have time to say; WTH.

You seem so sure of yourself and wishing you good luck with your business venue, you are going to need it.

We are a family. We share bank accounts. My wife is Thai. Legally, we hire the building (forever). I have the right to eat, sleep and walk in a building we hire. I don't know anything of the things she sells and I am not interested in religion. My wife's family is much more rich than me, they could buy 50 of these businesses if they wanted to, I couldn't even buy one. As a husband it's a duty to look over the safety of my wife. Edited July 20, 2013 by kriswillems

[Beetlejuice]

The business is a family business.

All the buildings are owned by the temple. We buy the right to hire them (forever) for a very low price (2000B/month).

My wife and I own the right on one building, my wife's mother owns the second building. My wife is the business owner.

When talking about "buying the building", I mean buying the right from the person that currently holds the right (which is not our neighbour).

The business is there for more than 20 years, but we recently bought the second branch. His shop is now squeezed between our shops. It's very successful (think about an income that's even good according to western standards).

For a moment I thought about hiring bigger mafia. I was a regular visitor of Thai prisoners (and I still know them after they got out). But I don't think that's a good option. It could end very bad.

I am 100% sure the police is on our side, but I doubt that they dare to do something or get involved.

Our business is 100% legal and clean. There's nothing to hide.

Thanks to all for your advice. I'll try to protect the employees by the CCTV system and I myself carry something with me to protect myself in case of an attack.

For now there's not much more we can do. I think things will eventually calm down. The neighbours have already been there for 6 or 7 years, and the last 5 years have been calm.

How can you own the right to the building in your name?

Your wife is the business owner. Does this mean you have not plied any of your own monies into the business, are not enjoying any of the proceeds from the business and are not involved? Somehow I doubt it because you mention, we recently bought the second branch, and this appears to be another Thai named financially farang backed business enterprise.

You describe your competitors as mafia, but in fact you are conducting a business on Temple property and dealing in (according to you) Thai religious artifacts, which is normally a closed shop to farangs, you are in fact muscling in on their territory.

If you doubt the police will get involved, than in fact they are not on your side, but are remaining neutral. If any problems do transpire, you will have to explain and show evidence that your business activities are all strictly above board, both to the police and if this matter goes to court. Take matters into your own hands and you could find yourself facing the wrath of the locals and your competitors family and mates or in jail before you have time to say; WTH.

You seem so sure of yourself and wishing you good luck with your business venue, you are going to need it.

We are a family. We share bank accounts. My wife is Thai. We hire the building. I have the right to eat, sleep and walk in a building we hire. I don't know anything of the things she sells and I am not interested in religion. My wife's family is much more rich than me, they could buy 50 of these businesses if they wanted to, I couldn't even buy one. As a husband it's a duty to look over the safety of my wife.

Than if you are truly not involved, and your wife`s family are as wealthy as you say and you are really concerned for the safety of your wife, than do the common sense thing and either ask the family to rent her another shop in a safer environment or get her out of there. It`s that simple.

Problem solved.

[kriswillems]

The reason my wife's family is upper mid class, is partly this business (They also sell to a lot of other shops around) and smart investment. I appreciate your advice, but moving is not the most obvious option, although I agree it's the safest option.

[EyesWideOpen]

I thought the general Thai solution to issues like this is simple.

You contact a very high person of dark influence, and then you pay

him a sum of money. He then places a single phone call to the people

tormenting you, and the problem goes away instantly.

[Beetlejuice]

The reason my wife's family is upper mid class, is partly this business (They also sell to a lot of other shops around) and smart investment. I appreciate your advice, but moving is not the most obvious option, although I agree it's the safest option.

Your replies to me have more holes than a Kg of Swiss cheese. First you say you bought, and now you say you`re only hiring the premises..

Are you saying that this business would not be able to function without your wife?

What about you; how are you financially supporting yourself here, if not relying on the profits from the alleged solely owned company of your wife, and are you able to support your wife independently by means other than this said business?

I have had decades of Thai business experience working legally in Thailand as a PR manager for a company based in Spain. I have vast knowledge of the Thai laws and the system here. I can also read people like a book, and see what the actual facts are behind the comments.

I have given you the facts regarding your situation, the benefit of my wealth of experience and advice, and whatever you decide to do next, you do at your own risk and discretion.

Please do not respond to this post, I`ve suddenly become bored.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Beetlejuice

[soi41]

Everything here is aty (according to you). Your neighbour is selling drugs. He hired a mafiatype, bad smelling and chainsmoking. Could be a familymember? Aty to insult your staff, if your staff ignores him, he will soon get tired.

If your inlaws is anywhere as rich and powerfull, as you claim, leave it to them to solve the problems (if any?). This is Thai business, stay out of it!

[kriswillems]

Beetlejuice, thanks for sharing your extensive knowledge about Thai laws and such. You need improve your knowledge about how houses, markets and business buildings on temple grounds are "handed over" in Thailand. Believe me, there's no Swiss cheese involved. Further on I think you checking the finances of my family on a public forum is not necessary. I think can I decide to answer or not on any post.

Edited July 20, 2013 by kriswillems

[Neeranam]

The reason my wife's family is upper mid class, is partly this business (They also sell to a lot of other shops around) and smart investment. I appreciate your advice, but moving is not the most obvious option, although I agree it's the safest option.

Are they Nouveau Riche Chinese Thai?

Upper class Thais would solve this problem with a couple of phone calls.

[kriswillems]

The reason my wife's family is upper mid class, is partly this business (They also sell to a lot of other shops around) and smart investment. I appreciate your advice, but moving is not the most obvious option, although I agree it's the safest option.

Are they Nouveau Riche Chinese Thai?

Upper class Thais would solve this problem with a couple of phone calls.

How many millions you need to be called rich? 10, 20, 30, 50 or 500, 1000? I wouldn't call them rich. I think you can call them hardworking. I don't think they have connections that can solve this that quickly. It would be no problem to buy his shop and kick him out, but against possible violent behaviour there's not much you can do.