self defence

[theblether]

The solution is within the Thai community, not here.

Edited July 20, 2013 by theblether

[kriswillems]

Everything here is aty (according to you). Your neighbour is selling drugs. He hired a mafiatype, bad smelling and chainsmoking. Could be a familymember? Aty to insult your staff, if your staff ignores him, he will soon get tired.

If your inlaws is anywhere as rich and powerfull, as you claim, leave it to them to solve the problems (if any?). This is Thai business, stay out of it!

They are ignoring them. It was my mistake to tell to the neighbour the harassment should stop. It has been going on for months, at they don't seem to get bored. I know it was not smart.

My wife's family is not powerful. They both lost their parents when they were still children and they didn't even have shoes. They were very poor - No background from a rich family. Via hard work, a bit good luck, and good investments they are where they are today. I wouldn't call them rich either.

[kriswillems]

Ok, thanks to all for your opinion. The majority of the answers says : stay out of it, and that's what I'll do.

I think time will resolve the problems.

Just will install the CCTV system and carry something with me for self-protection against possible attacks.

Thanks.

Edited July 20, 2013 by kriswillems

[HeijoshinCool]

To the OP:

if this story is true, are you the legal owner or using Thai names to front your business?

When foreigners begin treading on a Thais turf they rarely win and you are standing on dangerous ground here.

The attitude of the police is, we`ll take action if and when something bad happens, such as your business premises are set on fire, you are seriously injured or killed. If your business activities here are not strictly legit and squeaky clean and the disputes escalate, there may be big problems for you ahead.

Personally, I would not want to be in your situation or an owner or your businesses even if you offered to hand them to me for free.

My advice is if this story is fact, is to get out now while the going is good, while you are still physically able to walk away from it or a member or your family or employees get hurt.

Yep. Get out.

CCTV cameras won't even get convictions in the trial for your murder -- if anyone's even arrested.

Security guards you hire can be bought off.

Maybe, though, you will be one of the few westerners who wins here.

Probably not.

All your reasons for staying are not worth your lives.

[chonabot]

Employers/employees?

Although it will be a royal pain in the arse...in my vast opinion I would move and enjoy seeing my grandchildren one day

Edited July 20, 2013 by chonabot

[kriswillems]

Employers/employees?

Although it will be a royal pain in the arse...in my vast opinion I would move and enjoy seeing my grandchildren one day

yeah, sorry, employers in my original post should be employees.

[frankold]

Everything here is aty (according to you). Your neighbour is selling drugs. He hired a mafiatype, bad smelling and chainsmoking. Could be a familymember? Aty to insult your staff, if your staff ignores him, he will soon get tired.

If your inlaws is anywhere as rich and powerfull, as you claim, leave it to them to solve the problems (if any?). This is Thai business, stay out of it!

They are ignoring them. It was my mistake to tell to the neighbour the harassment should stop. It has been going on for months, at they don't seem to get bored. I know it was not smart.

My wife's family is not powerful. They both lost their parents when they were still children and they didn't even have shoes. They were very poor - No background from a rich family. Via hard work, a bit good luck, and good investments they are where they are today. I wouldn't call them rich either.

They were much richer than you could ever dream of being about 5x posts ago? With enough 'money to buy 50x of these businesses if they wanted to'.... why not go any buy another 2 somewhere else?

[Rust Never Sleeps]

I have an on going drama.

I have left it to the way the Thai people deal with things.

It's the way things are.

[klubex99]

I can confirm that the OP is telling the truth about how it works with the temples. My wife's family also have businesses in temple property. It is a very confusing and convoluted system they have. I also think that advising the OP that he is in grave danger from other Thais because he is trading on their turf is way over the top. That is like saying that any Thai woman who marries a foreigner no longer has the right to trade in anything that a Thai can. That's absurd.

I would ignore the advice to throw your hands up in the air and admit defeat and trade elsewhere. It's not that easy, and no way should you run away from a thriving business that your wife and your family have built up. Sod that!

I wonder how beetlejuice has managed to survive being a PR manager in Thailand for so long. I am surprised he hasn't been assassinated by Thai PR gurus yet for toe treading...

Seems this guy has done all he is going to do. You say he hired a guy to beat up your 70+ FIL, then ended up dying of 'natural causes'? So I think the guy next door already has got the message... If I am assuming 'natural causes' in the right context.

My advice.... Take over his shop, expand your own operation... having bad competition next door may make you look good, but it is even better to have none at all. Get your businesses insured against fire for a lot of money, just in case... Get full camera coverage, get alarmed up to the hilt. Make sure that the police know everything that is going on, if they say they are suspects number 1, then you can guarantee this guy also knows that.

Never let anyone bully you, fight fire with fire.. If your family are very rich, they will know people who can make natural causes happen.

[robblok]

You can as a foreigner own businesses seems mr Beetle juice is forgetting that. You can own 49% and your Thai partner can own the rest. He seems to forever make that point and it gets a bit boring after a while. Foreigners can legally be in business in Thailand.

[pomchop]

If I were the farang involved I would go on a nice long trip for a couple of months and let the wife's family see if they can sort it out. I suspect being a farang is like walking around with a big mafia target on your back. Out of sight, out of mind? In any case it is not worth you or your loved ones dying over even if you have to give up the business and move away. There are a lot of people who may be right but end up dead or maimed for life.

[Beetlejuice]

You can as a foreigner own businesses seems mr Beetle juice is forgetting that. You can own 49% and your Thai partner can own the rest. He seems to forever make that point and it gets a bit boring after a while. Foreigners can legally be in business in Thailand.

You are missing my point completely.

Of course farangs can own certain non-prohibited to foreigners businesses in Thailand, and fully aware of that fact.

I am specifically referring to the case of the OP and others like him, who prefer to operate behind the scenes and avoid officially setting up a business using the prescribed methods as imposed under Thai law.

Anyone who has a legally established business in Thailand would have fewer problems of being harassed, intimidated and be of a credible status within the business communities because they have more protection and clout under the law. Those who do abuse the system in the hope that no one will notice or will turn a blind eye are not doing themselves or anyone else any favours. The irresponsible actions of others has a knock on affect for all of us.

If for some reasons one considers that starting a business going via official channels is not viable, than don`t start a business.

Read my posts going as far back as you wish, I have always said; do not become involved in Thailand, keep a low profile and always stay within the boundaries of the laws if you want to live safely, in peace and a stress free life here.

As the wise man says; always cover ya own a-se, don`t commit yourself to any project just on a hope and a prayer that things will work out and there won`t be any problems.

[kriswillems]

Beetlejuice, my wife's family has been doing this kind of business for 35 years. I don't think they should stop it and forbid their daughter to go on with it just because she's married to a farang. There is no law telling that the wife of a farang should stop doing business. Every Thai person has exactly the same rights, also those married to a farang. My wife already helped her mother in the business before she met me. But this is all totally unrelated to my initial post.

Edited July 20, 2013 by kriswillems

[kriswillems]

Seems this guy has done all he is going to do. You say he hired a guy to beat up your 70+ FIL, then ended up dying of 'natural causes'? So I think the guy next door already has got the message... If I am assuming 'natural causes' in the right context.

Really, not long after beating up the father of my wife (who is the most calm and polite guy I've ever met) the one that did it got cancer and died shortly after that. So we were not involved, but we really had a small party.

[klubex99]

Seems this guy has done all he is going to do. You say he hired a guy to beat up your 70+ FIL, then ended up dying of 'natural causes'? So I think the guy next door already has got the message... If I am assuming 'natural causes' in the right context.

Really, not long after beating up the father of my wife (who is the most calm and polite guy I've ever met) the one that did it got cancer and died shortly after that. So we were not involved, but we really had a small party.

Ah right... I see now.

I got confused by the way you laid out the sentence....

The guy that beat him up died (of natural causes) and we had a party that day. Since then things have been quiet and there were not much problems.

I thought you may have been intimating towards 'organized natural causes'....lol

You could always get someone to leak out some rumour that a friend of your FIL got the old hag on the hill who mixes up potions for all kinds of joob joob inducing spells to sort of afflict the guy with cancer.... I am sure you are more than aware that many would believe it.

[soundman]

Best form of defense against hired thugs is a tamper proof CCTV system. They are scared shitless of those. When you install it make sure bags and spray paint can't be used to interfere with the cameras.

Also, install internal recorders in plain sight inside your vehicles. Doesn't matter if they are going or not, it will just act as a deterrent against highly likely vehicle vandalism.

The reason they hate cameras so much is a recording is irrefutable proof that cannot be argued or bartered with.

In my petrol station we would suffer an armed robbery at least once every six months. After installing a CCTV system, not one in five years.

Good luck.

[Suradit69]

The reason my wife's family is upper mid class, is partly this business (They also sell to a lot of other shops around) and smart investment. I appreciate your advice, but moving is not the most obvious option, although I agree it's the safest option.

Your replies to me have more holes than a Kg of Swiss cheese. First you say you bought, and now you say you`re only hiring the premises..

Are you saying that this business would not be able to function without your wife?

What about you; how are you financially supporting yourself here, if not relying on the profits from the alleged solely owned company of your wife, and are you able to support your wife independently by means other than this said business?

I have had decades of Thai business experience working legally in Thailand as a PR manager for a company based in Spain. I have vast knowledge of the Thai laws and the system here. I can also read people like a book, and see what the actual facts are behind the comments.

I have given you the facts regarding your situation, the benefit of my wealth of experience and advice, and whatever you decide to do next, you do at your own risk and discretion.

Please do not respond to this post, I`ve suddenly become bored.

"Your replies to me have more holes than a Kg of Swiss cheese. First you say you bought, and now you say you`re only hiring the premises.."

I agree there seem to be a lot of inconsistencies in his story, but as to hiring versus buying, possibly when dealing with a temple it's like obtaining a statue of Buddha. You never buy one. You only rent them.

[Oww]

The business does so well ('even by western standards'). The old man was actually physically beaten!...They are 'wealthy' and been cranking in this money from this business for decades. And 20k baht/month is too much to spend on a full time security guard??!! <deleted>??

Making good money 'by western standards' but still too cheap to pay a Thai standard salary security guard.....

Refuses to move on even after his wife's elderly father was physically beaten.....

If something does happen...Som Nom Na I say.

[NoshowJones]

get the biggest meanest trained guard dog, that will respond to sic em. put him on patrol with the help and make a comfortable spot in front of both shops for him.. Be sure and specify you want a crotch bitter when you go shopping for the dog.

The dog would just get poisoned.

[EyesWideOpen]

Myself and every other long term expat here knows the correct Thai way to settle this matter. If the OP's family has even a fraction of the wealth he is alluding to, that is what would have been done. Regarding the ongoing discussion of business ownership, clearly this business is in the name of his wife.

[chrisinth]

Best form of defense against hired thugs is a tamper proof CCTV system. They are scared shitless of those. When you install it make sure bags and spray paint can't be used to interfere with the cameras.

Also, install internal recorders in plain sight inside your vehicles. Doesn't matter if they are going or not, it will just act as a deterrent against highly likely vehicle vandalism.

The reason they hate cameras so much is a recording is irrefutable proof that cannot be argued or bartered with.

In my petrol station we would suffer an armed robbery at least once every six months. After installing a CCTV system, not one in five years.

Good luck.

CCTV's are great deterrents. But one thing you have to be careful of is where you keep the recording. If you are keeping the feed recorded to a devise on your property, make sure it is either well hidden or as inaccessible as possible.

If you are recording to 'cloud', make sure your internet lines are hidden (preferably in armoured conduit) or they are again as inaccessible as possible.

For CCTV to be efficient, you need the record! If someone can remove the hard drive or cut the internet cable before doing the deed, then the cameras become decorations to your home/business................

[klubex99]

Myself and every other long term expat here knows the correct Thai way to settle this matter. If the OP's family has even a fraction of the wealth he is alluding to, that is what would have been done. Regarding the ongoing discussion of business ownership, clearly this business is in the name of his wife.

Yes I agree with that too.

Normally Thai families with money suffer no problems.

[catweazle]

Dogs wouldn't help as they can be poisoned easily or shot and this will certainly happen given your description of those thugs. The CCTV cameras will do $#it as they can - in the best case scenario - only proof to bring one of them to justice for inflicting bodily harm, property damage or murder... Then it is too late anyway.

As far as I can see you have only three chances: 1) Walk away and start a new life and business in another area. 2) Take a big amount of money and find the biggest mafia, army or police swine you can hire for that money and let them "take care" of the problem. Then buy the building and hire bodyguards and security for a full year. 3) Pray and ask god for help and guidance - you said your business is religion-related.

Good luck!

Edited July 21, 2013 by catweazle

[Trembly]

The business does so well ('even by western standards'). The old man was actually physically beaten!...They are 'wealthy' and been cranking in this money from this business for decades. And 20k baht/month is too much to spend on a full time security guard??!! <deleted>??

Making good money 'by western standards' but still too cheap to pay a Thai standard salary security guard.....

Refuses to move on even after his wife's elderly father was physically beaten.....

If something does happen...Som Nom Na I say.

It wouldn't matter if it was only 10000 baht a month, or even 5000, it's still just a band-aid that does nothing to address the problem. It could even adversely affect business.

[robblok]

You can as a foreigner own businesses seems mr Beetle juice is forgetting that. You can own 49% and your Thai partner can own the rest. He seems to forever make that point and it gets a bit boring after a while. Foreigners can legally be in business in Thailand.

You are missing my point completely.

Of course farangs can own certain non-prohibited to foreigners businesses in Thailand, and fully aware of that fact.

I am specifically referring to the case of the OP and others like him, who prefer to operate behind the scenes and avoid officially setting up a business using the prescribed methods as imposed under Thai law.

Anyone who has a legally established business in Thailand would have fewer problems of being harassed, intimidated and be of a credible status within the business communities because they have more protection and clout under the law. Those who do abuse the system in the hope that no one will notice or will turn a blind eye are not doing themselves or anyone else any favours. The irresponsible actions of others has a knock on affect for all of us.

If for some reasons one considers that starting a business going via official channels is not viable, than don`t start a business.

Read my posts going as far back as you wish, I have always said; do not become involved in Thailand, keep a low profile and always stay within the boundaries of the laws if you want to live safely, in peace and a stress free life here.

As the wise man says; always cover ya own a-se, don`t commit yourself to any project just on a hope and a prayer that things will work out and there won`t be any problems.

To add to that a farang can even put money in a Thai business of his wife just make up a loan contract with real low interest and there you have it you don't get controlling right but there is money in the business. She can even buy a house then for the business as this is just a loan. As long as there are no controlling right connected to the loan its ok.

You are always and forever going on about farangs not being able to do this and that while in reality some things can be one if you have a bit of business sense. You can even give a mortgage to a Thai to finance a house this way if they don't pay you can still take the house. You can't own it but you can sell it.

[MobileContent]

If someone would do that to me, my wife or my in-laws, I would hire the right people money can buy and the problems is solved within hours.

My FIL too once faced a problem as he is in the construction business. A couple of Hennessy, an envelope solved the problem.

Another problem we had was our neighbor that runs a casino that thought they could intimidate us. He went over to my FIL and told him he is going to kill one day that Farang (me). I just smiled at him and showed him the middle finger. He got drunk that day and hit a few hours later a motorcyclist and killed him on the spot. His pickup was confiscated and he had to pay a lot of money to get out of jail two weeks later.

He still hated me to the teeth and keep threatening me in his Southern dialect, so I invited the family of him to come for our wedding and had VIP's from the government from both Udon and Sakon Nakhon and they talked to his parents in laws and all what was needed was a 5 minute chat by the government officials to pass a message to their son in law to either back off or go back to Surat Thani and never come back to Isaan.

On advise by his MIL he moved away 15 km's from our village and only comes once a month for a short visit but he behaves now.

If the OP or his family members have done nothing wrong, he shouldn't move away. I did installed CCTV cameras.

[klauskunkel]

Document everything. Go back in your memory and write down what happened, with dates, if you can. Write down anything your employees report to you.

[kriswillems]

- Please guys, be realistic. There's no shop in Thailand that sells religious products with a permanent guard. It would scare the customers. Further on 20K per month is a waste of money.

- The business is owned by my wife and she has all right to do so. The investment is 100% hers. I am not related to the business in any way. I have already explained her family is doing this business for 35 years, long before I came to Thailand. I have 0% controlling right. I am not a shareholder. If I would start a business in Thailand, it would be for sure not about religion. There is nothing illegal of fishy about this. And it totally unrelated to my question.

- About how temple land is handed over to the next owner: you both buy the right and pay rent (hire). Please go to find out yourself. It's again totally unrelated to my question.

- How much money exactly my family exactly has is private and in my opinion also totally unrelated to the question. If there would be special privileges rich people have, tell me what they are. Illegal suggestions are not welcome.

Sorry if I sound a bit annoyed, but there are people here, that instead of trying to help the thread starter just spend their time making up all kinds of false accusations.

Edited July 21, 2013 by kriswillems

[EyesWideOpen]

You keep missing the point. Disputes like this in Thailand are

settled with a phone call. There was in fact an interesting article

about this very same issue a couple of years ago in the paper that

must not be named. You simply contacted the proper poo yai, he placed

a phone call that said unless the problem was stopped immediately,

the person causing the problem would not live a long time. Problem

solved instantly, with no face lost. But to me the interesting part

of the article was that payment was not involved, as that would look

a bit crass. Instead you owed the poo yai a favor that must be repaid

later. Guess those people watched The Godfather.....

[jpinx]

- Please guys, be realistic. There's no shop in Thailand that sells religious products with a permanent guard. It would scare the customers. Further on 20K per month is a waste of money.

- The business is owned by my wife and she has all right to do so. The investment is 100% hers. I am not related to the business in any way. I have already explained her family is doing this business for 35 years, long before I came to Thailand. I have 0% controlling right. I am not a shareholder. If I would start a business in Thailand, it would be for sure not about religion. There is nothing illegal of fishy about this. And it totally unrelated to my question.

- About how temple land is handed over to the next owner: you both buy the right and pay rent (hire). Please go to find out yourself. It's again totally unrelated to my question.

- How much money exactly my family exactly has is private and in my opinion also totally unrelated to the question. If there would be special privileges rich people have, tell me what they are. Illegal suggestions are not welcome.

Sorry if I sound a bit annoyed, but there are people here, that instead of trying to help the thread starter just spend their time making up all kinds of false accusations.

Ruling out "illegal suggestions" is a bit difficult seeing as the thais solve most of these disputes in the "grey area"