Australia to Send Refugees to Papua New Guinea

[chooka]

Within the first minutes of the Four Corners program the reporter visiting the village of the deceased and talks to the high level of violence in the area, kidnappings and the flow on effect of the sectarian proxy war in Syria. Don't know why this was not mentioned as a contributing driver, rather than solely commenting on the costs of doco/transportation and calling them all out as economic refugees.

Right now there is a major concern that Lebanon is heading towards another civil war, with Lebanese officials estimating there are 1.4 million Syrians in the country, including 800,000 registered refugees. Note that Lebanon is not a signatory to the UN convention for refugees and stateless persons, there is no viable legal framework or admin processes for assisting/protecting refugees or displaced persons.

Well Australia is now on it's own with the people smugglers and boats. Indoneasia has recalled it's ambassador and cut ties with Australia over the spying scandal.

Australia is also cutting the border patrol budget by 500 million and 600 jobs may also go.

Edited November 19, 2013 by chooka

[samran]

Within the first minutes of the Four Corners program the reporter visiting the village of the deceased and talks to the high level of violence in the area, kidnappings and the flow on effect of the sectarian proxy war in Syria. Don't know why this was not mentioned as a contributing driver, rather than solely commenting on the costs of doco/transportation and calling them all out as economic refugees.

Right now there is a major concern that Lebanon is heading towards another civil war, with Lebanese officials estimating there are 1.4 million Syrians in the country, including 800,000 registered refugees. Note that Lebanon is not a signatory to the UN convention for refugees and stateless persons, there is no viable legal framework or admin processes for assisting/protecting refugees or displaced persons.

Well Australia is now on it's own with the people smugglers and boats. Indoneasia has recalled it's ambassador and cut ties with Australia over the spying scandal.

Australia is also cutting the border patrol budget by 500 million and 600 jobs may also go.

Indonesia has not cut ties...though ole Tone is making a hash of it. So much for three word slogans. He won the election I guess.

[samran]

These people are economic refugees ... not asylum seekers. One family paying almost $100,000 for their fateful trip.

Just some relevancy ... Lebanon, the country from which most of these people came from has a GDP of $15,900 Australia is about $43,000.

So, we are not talking about war torn poor people here ... we are talking about economic refugees.

.

Did you watch the 4 Corners Dave? The war in Syria is spilling over the border. The country has been riven by ethnic tension despite their own civil war nominally ending in the 80's.

That is not making a judgement on who is or isn't a refugee, I'll leave it to the proper processes to make that determination.

As for refugee's not being from 'poor' countries, I dare say a few million Jews from Germany circa WWII would disagree, as would a few million more from Bosina in the mid 1990's. It fits our stereotypes nicely that refugee's are all poor people from some gawd-forsaken corners of the world. Many times they are not.

[David48]

These people are economic refugees ... not asylum seekers. One family paying almost $100,000 for their fateful trip.

Just some relevancy ... Lebanon, the country from which most of these people came from has a GDP of $15,900 Australia is about $43,000.

So, we are not talking about war torn poor people here ... we are talking about economic refugees.

.

Did you watch the 4 Corners Dave? The war in Syria is spilling over the border. The country has been riven by ethnic tension despite their own civil war nominally ending in the 80's.

That is not making a judgement on who is or isn't a refugee, I'll leave it to the proper processes to make that determination.

As for refugee's not being from 'poor' countries, I dare say a few million Jews from Germany circa WWII would disagree, as would a few million more from Bosina in the mid 1990's. It fits our stereotypes nicely that refugee's are all poor people from some gawd-forsaken corners of the world. Many times they are not.

Yes, I watched it last night ... caught it on i-View

The only reason the reference to the relative GDP's was that a Family paying $100,000 in Lebanon is akin to a small fortune.

That said ... you know I have a favourable disposition to a Refugee intake ... but our positions differ on who, how and why.

If I could put it in diplomatic words ... I have a favourable disposition and your good self have a generous disposition.

Just a small thought ... instead of beating up on each other ... focus the anger on the people smuggler making and estimated $600,000 from that death boat and he ran it from within the Indonesian Prison <deleted>.

[Sing_Sling]

Within the first minutes of the Four Corners program the reporter visiting the village of the deceased and talks to the high level of violence in the area, kidnappings and the flow on effect of the sectarian proxy war in Syria. Don't know why this was not mentioned as a contributing driver, rather than solely commenting on the costs of doco/transportation and calling them all out as economic refugees.

Right now there is a major concern that Lebanon is heading towards another civil war, with Lebanese officials estimating there are 1.4 million Syrians in the country, including 800,000 registered refugees. Note that Lebanon is not a signatory to the UN convention for refugees and stateless persons, there is no viable legal framework or admin processes for assisting/protecting refugees or displaced persons.

Well Australia is now on it's own with the people smugglers and boats. Indoneasia has recalled it's ambassador and cut ties with Australia over the spying scandal.

Australia is also cutting the border patrol budget by 500 million and 600 jobs may also go.

Recalling the ambassador and cutting ties are two completely different things. Recalling the Ambo is a sign of protest. He'll be back once the Indons have made their point that Whitey can't push them around at will . . . the days of the Raj are well and truly over

[simple1]

A bit more detail regarding places such as Lebanon. Most humanitarian visas are granted to applicants who are outside their home country. If a person is living in their home country, it is unlikely that they will meet the criteria to be granted a refugee or humanitarian visa. This information is available on the Australian Embassy Lebanon website. By extension, prior to the PNG policy decision, you would think it would have been one of the motivations for local citizens under threat to exit Lebanon by any means.

Edited November 19, 2013 by simple1

[samran]

Ah, but Tone is now gifting two patrol boats to that bastion of human rights, Sri Lanka. Gives gunboat diplomacy a new meaning.

I thought sales of military hardware to countries with dodgy rights records was something to be frowned upon. Guess not.

[simple1]

Ah, but Tone is now gifting two patrol boats to that bastion of human rights, Sri Lanka. Gives gunboat diplomacy a new meaning.

I thought sales of military hardware to countries with dodgy rights records was something to be frowned upon. Guess not.

Sales of military hardware & associated support services to oppressive government/dictatorships are di rigour for Western countries arms industries. As has been proven also the training of security services in "interrogation techniques".

Off topic, but there has been speculation this is one of the reasons for the late French objections to the Iranian nuclear negotiations in order to keep the existing & propective Sunni dictatorships clients on side. Also potential orders for nuclear power stations in KSA & Qatar

Edited November 19, 2013 by simple1

[samran]

@david

Never presumed otherwise.

For me, it isn't about being generous or not, but many have interpreted this as being 'do gooder' or 'bleeding heart' as if it is some sort of insult.

My starting point is one of non-judgmentalism.

I've drawn a line in the sand to say those who turn up in Australia, by whatever means, should have the right to ask for, and be granted asylum. I'll leave it to due process to make those determinations as to who is defined as a refugee.

What I won't be party to any type of law which one group of people in one category (those who arrive by plane) and those in another category (those who arrive by boat). That is pure discrimination, in the same way for instance, QLD's bikey laws discriminate purely on the basis of association, I object to them. I might not like the bikers, they may be criminals. But you don't carte blanche start grouping people and given them one set of rights over another. Once you start down that route, you are on a slippery slope.

Do I want people getting on boats? No.Stopping them, isn't simple, as Tone is finding out. People hark back to John Howards 'stopping the boats'. I don't doubt what he did worked at the time worked. But to say that time stands still, and the people smugglers don't innovate is foolish. It is also foolish to under estimate the siren song of these people smugglers, which to someone who is desperate to pay $10K to get on a leaky boat, sounds pretty good. Says alot about where they have come from that getting on a boat is a 'good' option.

Edited November 19, 2013 by samran

[David48]

Ah, but Tone is now gifting two patrol boats to that bastion of human rights, Sri Lanka. Gives gunboat diplomacy a new meaning.

"Gives gunboat diplomacy a new meaning." ... ... nice turn of phrase.

But a few facts as Simple1 statement above of "Sales of military hardware & associated support services to oppressive government/dictatorships are di rigour for Western countries arms industries" is well wide of the mark in this instance.

They weren't 'sold' ... they were 'gifted'.

... and it was endorsed by both sides of Politics.

FORMER foreign minister Bob Carr has described a decision by the Abbott government to give the Sri Lankan navy two patrol boats as "sound policy" and revealed that Labor contemplated doing the same thing.

Mr Carr, who as foreign minister did much to smooth Australia's relationship with Sri Lanka at a time when Colombo's co-operation was being sought to stem people-smuggling, dismissed suggestions the boats could be used to perpetrate human rights abuses.

"I can't see how they could be," Mr Carr said. "There are human rights concerns with Sri Lanka, but you've got to be careful about adopting one narrative out of the civil war that lasted 35 years."

The comments came as Sri Lanka's naval brass moved to allay concerns the Bay Class patrol boats could be misused, saying the vessels would be used to do the same border-protection work in their waters that they did in Australia's.

The Australian

Hope that helps to keep the narrative factual ...

.

[simple1]

A few boats were gifted to Sri Lanka, but military hardware has been previously sold to Sri Lanka. I understand Australia has an agenda with Sri Lanka and some Sri Lanka refugees were returned after been identified as economic refugees. At the same time Sri Lanka government has been accused of systematic torture, the murder of 40,000 civilians toward the end of the civil war, plus ongoing discrimination by Buddhist nationalists against Tamil Hindus and Muslims.

Other than the usual Western governments, Australia has sold arms and security systems to bastions of human rights such as Zimbabwe and Saudi Arabia.

[simple1]

Within the first minutes of the Four Corners program the reporter visiting the village of the deceased and talks to the high level of violence in the area, kidnappings and the flow on effect of the sectarian proxy war in Syria. Don't know why this was not mentioned as a contributing driver, rather than solely commenting on the costs of doco/transportation and calling them all out as economic refugees.

Right now there is a major concern that Lebanon is heading towards another civil war, with Lebanese officials estimating there are 1.4 million Syrians in the country, including 800,000 registered refugees. Note that Lebanon is not a signatory to the UN convention for refugees and stateless persons, there is no viable legal framework or admin processes for assisting/protecting refugees or displaced persons.

Major bomb attack on Iranian embassy in Lebanon, immediately linked by reporters to conflict in Syria

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24997876

[David48]

Within the first minutes of the Four Corners program the reporter visiting the village of the deceased and talks to the high level of violence in the area, kidnappings and the flow on effect of the sectarian proxy war in Syria. Don't know why this was not mentioned as a contributing driver, rather than solely commenting on the costs of doco/transportation and calling them all out as economic refugees.

Right now there is a major concern that Lebanon is heading towards another civil war, with Lebanese officials estimating there are 1.4 million Syrians in the country, including 800,000 registered refugees. Note that Lebanon is not a signatory to the UN convention for refugees and stateless persons, there is no viable legal framework or admin processes for assisting/protecting refugees or displaced persons.

Major bomb attack on Iranian embassy in Lebanon, immediately linked by reporters to conflict in Syria

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24997876

Mate, quoting yourself is stretching it a little.

Also stretching it is what does this "Major bomb attack on Iranian embassy in Lebanon, immediately linked by reporters to conflict in Syria" have to do with the OP ... "australia-to-send-refugees-to-papua-new-guinea" ?

.

[samran]

Within the first minutes of the Four Corners program the reporter visiting the village of the deceased and talks to the high level of violence in the area, kidnappings and the flow on effect of the sectarian proxy war in Syria. Don't know why this was not mentioned as a contributing driver, rather than solely commenting on the costs of doco/transportation and calling them all out as economic refugees.

Right now there is a major concern that Lebanon is heading towards another civil war, with Lebanese officials estimating there are 1.4 million Syrians in the country, including 800,000 registered refugees. Note that Lebanon is not a signatory to the UN convention for refugees and stateless persons, there is no viable legal framework or admin processes for assisting/protecting refugees or displaced persons.

Major bomb attack on Iranian embassy in Lebanon, immediately linked by reporters to conflict in Syria

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24997876

Mate, quoting yourself is stretching it a little.

Also stretching it is what does this "Major bomb attack on Iranian embassy in Lebanon, immediately linked by reporters to conflict in Syria" have to do with the OP ... "australia-to-send-refugees-to-papua-new-guinea" ?

.

I think the point was everything isn't hunky dory in Lebanon like was alluded to a few posts back.

Edited November 19, 2013 by samran

[David48]

^^ ... Mate, if you are referring to my comment ... I don't believe that intimated that.

[tw25rw]

What I'd like to see is how many have assimilated into Australian society, and how many still live in ethnic ghettos. The idea that they can make a life in Oz for the rest of their lives, but make no effort to accept the Oz culture is abhorrent to me. It's the same thing that outraged me in the UK, where they still commit so called "honour killings" and female genital mutilation on their daughters. Even worse are the western cretins that try to excuse it on the grounds of culture.

I can honestly say I have never seen or heard anyone, except maybe a defence lawyer, excuse them on grounds of culture.

Edited November 19, 2013 by tw25rw

[David48]

On a different, but related note.

As the number of illegals arrive by Boat decline, the attention turns to them buying fake Passports and Visas and trying to fly in.

To board a flight in Thailand, the check-in staff verifies the Visa, which I presume is directly related to the Passport Number.

How does it pass that test ... the simplest test of all?

Obviously they do get around it ... but how?

Apparently they have a Paper Visa in the Passport. If the check-in staff see that, do they then not bother to check the data-base?

.

[samran]

^^ ... Mate, if you are referring to my comment ... I don't believe that intimated that.

dunno...

Just some relevancy ... Lebanon, the country from which most of these people came from has a GDP of $15,900 Australia is about $43,000.

So, we are not talking about war torn poor people here ... we are talking about economic refugees.

.

war torn perhaps not.

Massive sectarian divisions, definitely.

[David48]

^^ ... Mate, if you are referring to my comment ... I don't believe that intimated that.

dunno...

Just some relevancy ... Lebanon, the country from which most of these people came from has a GDP of $15,900 Australia is about $43,000.

So, we are not talking about war torn poor people here ... we are talking about economic refugees.

.

war torn perhaps not.

Massive sectarian divisions, definitely.

I can cop that ...

[simple1]

Within the first minutes of the Four Corners program the reporter visiting the village of the deceased and talks to the high level of violence in the area, kidnappings and the flow on effect of the sectarian proxy war in Syria. Don't know why this was not mentioned as a contributing driver, rather than solely commenting on the costs of doco/transportation and calling them all out as economic refugees.

Right now there is a major concern that Lebanon is heading towards another civil war, with Lebanese officials estimating there are 1.4 million Syrians in the country, including 800,000 registered refugees. Note that Lebanon is not a signatory to the UN convention for refugees and stateless persons, there is no viable legal framework or admin processes for assisting/protecting refugees or displaced persons.

Major bomb attack on Iranian embassy in Lebanon, immediately linked by reporters to conflict in Syria

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24997876

Mate, quoting yourself is stretching it a little.

Also stretching it is what does this "Major bomb attack on Iranian embassy in Lebanon, immediately linked by reporters to conflict in Syria" have to do with the OP ... "australia-to-send-refugees-to-papua-new-guinea" ?

.

I was providing a very brief intro to the URL. You commenced commentary on the Lebanese refugees, twice, whilst completely ignoring the circumstances of some of the deceased peoples home village and surrounding area. As pointed out earlier there is conflict in Lebanon with some terrible outcomes. Accordingly, I was providing the latest info on sectarian/political violence that has a possibility to generate another civil war, with the consequence of more refugees attempting to flee the country; entirely relevant to the topic.

If the mods believe it is not relevant they can take action or you can use the report function.

[Scott]

I think a continuing discussion of the bombing of the Iranian embassy in Lebanon is off-topic. There may be a relationship between this and the refugee situation in Australia, but let's try to focus on things more directly linked to the topic.

[David48]

Just so you know simple1 ... I didn't complain or report, but I appreciate the Moderator keeping us focused on the OP.

Given the magnitude of what you described (Major bomb attack on Iranian embassy in Lebanon) will be an item in the World News and you can post your heart out there ...

Actually, I'm surprised that it isn't already.

Maybe you could kick one off in the General Forum?

.

[Scott]

Don't open one in General. I will see what I can do about getting one in the World News Section.

[Scott]

In the meantime, I have moved this topic from a different forum. It might be of some interest:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/682704-indonesian-leader-deplores-statement-by-aussie-pm/

[Scott]

The Iranian embassy blast is here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/682830-lebanon-blasts-hit-irans-embassy-in-beirut/

[chooka]

What I hate about these so called refugees, which they aren't is that they prevent real people in need of getting into the country and they also make it harder for real tourists who want a visa.

My wife has now been going through a 3 month ordeal just to get a visa to Australia to visit Family for Xmas.

She has an Australian son/husband but has to produce so much I.D, passport, Identity card, bank statements, declare all assets in Thailand and abroad. We had to attend an interview at the Embassy in Bangkok so I could say she is who she say's she is. my son (6 yrs old) declares this is my mum and dad. We produce birth certificates, passports and his Australian citizenship papers.

She owns land in Australia and has lived in Australia. We are told that DFAT are applying more stringent checks on identity of persons applying for visa's.

Why the f*&ck don't they apply the same rules to these bloody boat people. If my wife can't produce identity and prove beyond all reasonable doubt then she can't get in. If these lowlifes can't do the bloody same why the hell do they get in.

Jump on a boat you get in. Be upfront ant legal then you jump through hoops and wait your turn as illegal people are more important than a mother to her child.

I hate Australia with a passion and hate being born in that racist country.

[simple1]

What I hate about these so called refugees, which they aren't is that they prevent real people in need of getting into the country and they also make it harder for real tourists who want a visa.

My wife has now been going through a 3 month ordeal just to get a visa to Australia to visit Family for Xmas.

She has an Australian son/husband but has to produce so much I.D, passport, Identity card, bank statements, declare all assets in Thailand and abroad. We had to attend an interview at the Embassy in Bangkok so I could say she is who she say's she is. my son (6 yrs old) declares this is my mum and dad. We produce birth certificates, passports and his Australian citizenship papers.

She owns land in Australia and has lived in Australia. We are told that DFAT are applying more stringent checks on identity of persons applying for visa's.

Why the f*&ck don't they apply the same rules to these bloody boat people. If my wife can't produce identity and prove beyond all reasonable doubt then she can't get in. If these lowlifes can't do the bloody same why the hell do they get in.

Jump on a boat you get in. Be upfront ant legal then you jump through hoops and wait your turn as illegal people are more important than a mother to her child.

I hate Australia with a passion and hate being born in that racist country.

Sorry to hear of the issues being faced for your wifes's tourist visa, the long vetting/processing time seems odd as it's usually no more than one month.

Asylum seekers/refugees arriving by sea, prior to the PNG Solution, were held in detention and subject to ID and security vetting prior to being permitted entry. DIAC stats state average assessment time was 320+ days. Some were permitted bridging visas, but those granted after 13/08/2012 are not permitted to obtain employment. I believe about 10% did not achieve positive vetting for various reasons and would be held until arrangements can be made to return to their home countries

[Sing_Sling]

What I'd like to see is how many have assimilated into Australian society, and how many still live in ethnic ghettos. The idea that they can make a life in Oz for the rest of their lives, but make no effort to accept the Oz culture is abhorrent to me. It's the same thing that outraged me in the UK, where they still commit so called "honour killings" and female genital mutilation on their daughters. Even worse are the western cretins that try to excuse it on the grounds of culture.

I can honestly say I have never seen or heard anyone, except maybe a defence lawyer, excuse them on grounds of culture.

Of course not, but it makes for good sound-bites on a forum like this . . . You see, this type of debating 'style' puts anyone who disagrees in the position to be called an apologist for honour killings and female genital mutilation. Quite an easy way to 'debate'.

What I hate about these so called refugees, which they aren't is that they prevent real people in need of getting into the country and they also make it harder for real tourists who want a visa.

My wife has now been going through a 3 month ordeal just to get a visa to Australia to visit Family for Xmas.

She has an Australian son/husband but has to produce so much I.D, passport, Identity card, bank statements, declare all assets in Thailand and abroad. We had to attend an interview at the Embassy in Bangkok so I could say she is who she say's she is. my son (6 yrs old) declares this is my mum and dad. We produce birth certificates, passports and his Australian citizenship papers.

She owns land in Australia and has lived in Australia. We are told that DFAT are applying more stringent checks on identity of persons applying for visa's.

Why the f*&ck don't they apply the same rules to these bloody boat people. If my wife can't produce identity and prove beyond all reasonable doubt then she can't get in. If these lowlifes can't do the bloody same why the hell do they get in.

Jump on a boat you get in. Be upfront ant legal then you jump through hoops and wait your turn as illegal people are more important than a mother to her child.

I hate Australia with a passion and hate being born in that racist country.

"I hate Australia with a passion and hate being born in that racist country"

I'm sure the Aborigines would agree . . .

So, your post is another in the 'my wife is different, why are people so mean' category. Do you feel the same about others who face the same rigmarole or do they deserve it?

I reckon you'd be the first to cry foul at others having it 'easy' . . . ah yes, you do:

Ah, and if you think that 'jump on a boat and you get it' and that it is sooooo easy for refugees (boat people) to get into Oz then you simply haven't been paying attention . . . to anything.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Sing_Sling

[OZEMADE]

What I hate about these so called refugees, which they aren't is that they prevent real people in need of getting into the country and they also make it harder for real tourists who want a visa.

My wife has now been going through a 3 month ordeal just to get a visa to Australia to visit Family for Xmas.

She has an Australian son/husband but has to produce so much I.D, passport, Identity card, bank statements, declare all assets in Thailand and abroad. We had to attend an interview at the Embassy in Bangkok so I could say she is who she say's she is. my son (6 yrs old) declares this is my mum and dad. We produce birth certificates, passports and his Australian citizenship papers.

She owns land in Australia and has lived in Australia. We are told that DFAT are applying more stringent checks on identity of persons applying for visa's.

Why the f*&ck don't they apply the same rules to these bloody boat people. If my wife can't produce identity and prove beyond all reasonable doubt then she can't get in. If these lowlifes can't do the bloody same why the hell do they get in.

Jump on a boat you get in. Be upfront ant legal then you jump through hoops and wait your turn as illegal people are more important than a mother to her child.

I hate Australia with a passion and hate being born in that racist country.

I watched the Parliament question time last night and Immigration and Visa questions came up.

Labor wanted to know why the Liberal Gov. had cut the amount of Visas for people entering the country.

The liberal said they had in fact cut the amount of visas to illegals/boat people etc entering the country to ZERO. However by them doing this, it increased the amount of visas for people legally entering the country. You see they in fact took 700 visas away from the illegals and added them to the already legal visas being granted.

They said the illegals will be dealt with in due course and after they have been checked out thoroughly, which may take years not months, they will be granted a legal visa if found to be a genuine refugee under threat or be flown back to where they came from if trying to jump the queue.

So for a bloke that hates his country with a passion for doing the right thing and wishing he was not born there, he had better ask himself, if Australia is that bad a place, why then are people willing to face death to come here.

I can just imagine your attitude at the Immigration in Bangkok and can understand why your wife's visa is taking so long.

Mate drop the racist attitude and you may get on better with the people you are dealing with.

If you have a genuine complaint, ask to speak to the supervisor. I had to at one time for my wife and the visa was granted on the spot.

[samran]

What I hate about these so called refugees, which they aren't is that they prevent real people in need of getting into the country and they also make it harder for real tourists who want a visa.

My wife has now been going through a 3 month ordeal just to get a visa to Australia to visit Family for Xmas.

She has an Australian son/husband but has to produce so much I.D, passport, Identity card, bank statements, declare all assets in Thailand and abroad. We had to attend an interview at the Embassy in Bangkok so I could say she is who she say's she is. my son (6 yrs old) declares this is my mum and dad. We produce birth certificates, passports and his Australian citizenship papers.

She owns land in Australia and has lived in Australia. We are told that DFAT are applying more stringent checks on identity of persons applying for visa's.

Why the f*&ck don't they apply the same rules to these bloody boat people. If my wife can't produce identity and prove beyond all reasonable doubt then she can't get in. If these lowlifes can't do the bloody same why the hell do they get in.

Jump on a boat you get in. Be upfront ant legal then you jump through hoops and wait your turn as illegal people are more important than a mother to her child.

I hate Australia with a passion and hate being born in that racist country.

Sorry to hear about your wife.

But you either want strict border controls or you don't.

A bit rich saying 'well we are different'. If you want to go down that route, queue jumping is queue jumping.