Legal agreement for transfer of land ownership?

[telstrareg]

I'm coming out of a failed relationship where I purchased farming land and 2 homes for my former Thai partner. 3 properties are in my former partner's name and one in my partner's mother's name. Both individuals have agreed to transfer assets to a trustee in return for my paying off my former partner's debts which total about B 200,000. However one piece of land can only be signed over after another 9 years because it only gained Chanote status about a year ago. So all that can be done for that property is to sign an agreement to transfer in the future.

My question is, is it possible to create a fairly watertight agreement under Thai law where an individual gives a legally binding undertaking to transfer assets to a third party at any time in the future when I request it? For example, I may marry a Thai some time in the future and wish to transfer the assets to that person or I may decide to sell the land in the future to a third party.

My thinking is; 1) one property is only transferable after 9 years, so there will need to be an agreement created anyway; 2) by doing agreements for all properties I won't waste money on the transfer fees to a trustee which are about 5% of the property values.

Any comments appreciated.

Edited August 1, 2013 by telstrareg

[telstrareg]

bump

[jbrain]

I think it is possible to have a lease agreement with a clause included that the lessee has the right to buy the property at an agreed price at a certain specified time in the future, and register the lease contract at the land department.

[jpinx]

You need a good lawyer

[HerbalEd]

Why ask for opinions on such a complicated legal question? Get a lawyer.

[Naroge]

You definitely need a very clever lawyer for this. Not just any hole-in-the-wall guy.

As you are not allowed to buy the land I cannot see how any agreement entered into today would be legal if it states that you have the right to buy the property in the future. And as you apparently not know the name of you possible future Thai partner there is no other name to put in instead.

If you finally mange to solve this tricky situation, pls post. Would be very interesting to know.

[Beetlejuice]

Any monies, land, real estate or assets you have placed in your partner`s or any other Thai third party`s names, under Thai law is in fact a gift, UNLESS:

You made a legal agreement with whoever you gave the above mentioned, that any monies given or real estate financed by you was a loan. Or in other words that as a farang you cannot own or have claims on the said property and farm, this all belongs to your Thai partner and it`s mother with funds loaned by you.

If you just provided the finance for the purchases and have nothing made legally in writing, than under the law you have no claims or rights over the said real estate or farm whatsoever and as for acquiring a good lawyer, I`m sorry, but not even Perry Mason would be able to get you out of this one.

Both individuals have agreed to transfer assets to a trustee in return for my paying off my former partner's debts which total about B 200,000.

And who is the trustee? The so-called trustee, if Thai? Will have the same rights over the illegally owned assets as your partner. Don`t do it. This is a ploy to con you into giving over another 200000 baht.

Whenever farangs try to abuse the system and purchase real estate and businesses using Thais as a front for the purchases and ownership solely on trust, than they do so at heir own risk and discretion, whether they are married or not.

Please read my posts, opinions and warnings on this subject going back as far as you like. It`s like walking a tight rope at 300 feet without a safety net. Sorry but I have no sympathies at all. People who do these deeds are saps, pure and simple.

[CNXTim]

The way i see it, you would need a compliant and trustworthy Thai proxy with you completely out of the picture. You cannot own land or claim any rights to it in Thailand.whatsoever under Thai law.

The only exception is for a legal Company Limited that has already received Board of Investment status - but whatever, if you think the asset is worth recovering get a very good lawyer.

And don't be surprised in the final analysis if you end up worse out of pocket than simply walking away and chalking it up to experience,

[SSSlongtime]

if a bee stings you once why go back to another honey pot ,

[how241]

Why ask for opinions on such a complicated legal question? Get a lawyer.

Get a GOOD lawyer.

[samuiray]

"Thai current owners willing to transfer against extinction of existing debt (Bht 220.000) "

On the assumption the facts are as stated:

- avail yourself of a good lawyer.

- real estate can legally be transferred to a Comp. Ltd.

in which farang owns a max.of 49%.

- without Comp. Ltd farang can enter into a Lease, max 30 yrs

to be registered in Land Office. Caution: when lessee dies, the

property reverts to owner/Lessor. To mitigate that risk the

Lessee may be multiple persons (e.g. father + sons).

Been there, done that.

Ray

[telstrareg]

I know this is a complicated issue for which I will need paid legal advice. But we post on forums to get opinions; hopefully from people who have previous experience. By doing this we may avoid heading blindly down a road on which we have no experience and no previous advice.

I said absolutely nothing about taking ownership of the asset myself. I only spoke of creating an agreement where someone gives a legally binding undertaking (a promise) to transfer an asset, on my request, at some time in the future, to someone who has the right to take ownership of it (ie a Thai citizen).

Presumably at some point, someone else might have been in the same situation and is willing to share their experience.

[harrry]

Trusts are not legal in Thailand. As far as I know all deals related to land other than for less than 3 years are not binding unless registered with the Land Department.

get good legal advice from at least two different lawyers.

Edited August 2, 2013 by harrry

[ozyjon]

Similar situation to me but after building the first house the family got greedy and started a wish list that comprised of buying the land next to ours, the land across from us the farm the auntie wanted to sell and i not only saw the dollar signs but acknowledge that i would gift everything away, said to my lovely, darling i have no money, showed her an ATM slip with a very small balance on it (i moved my money elsewhere) got kicked out of the house the next day, today i am wealthier and happier and have a new beautiful lady, this story gets repeated over and over and over again,, caution and knowledge about the Thai laws are needed to safely navigate in that country, again good luck to everyone.

[telstrareg]

Similar situation to me but after building the first house the family got greedy and started a wish list that comprised of buying the land next to ours, the land across from us the farm the auntie wanted to sell and i not only saw the dollar signs but acknowledge that i would gift everything away, said to my lovely, darling i have no money, showed her an ATM slip with a very small balance on it (i moved my money elsewhere) got kicked out of the house the next day, today i am wealthier and happier and have a new beautiful lady, this story gets repeated over and over and over again,, caution and knowledge about the Thai laws are needed to safely navigate in that country, again good luck to everyone.

Sorry about your misfortune. Glad to hear things have improved. It's a shame human garbage doesn't come pre-labeled.

Edited August 2, 2013 by telstrareg

[Beetlejuice]

I know this is a complicated issue for which I will need paid legal advice. But we post on forums to get opinions; hopefully from people who have previous experience. By doing this we may avoid heading blindly down a road on which we have no experience and no previous advice.

I said absolutely nothing about taking ownership of the asset myself. I only spoke of creating an agreement where someone gives a legally binding undertaking (a promise) to transfer an asset, on my request, at some time in the future, to someone who has the right to take ownership of it (ie a Thai citizen).

Presumably at some point, someone else might have been in the same situation and is willing to share their experience.

Posters have shared their experiences and given you their wealth of experience, knowledge and advice.

There is nothing complicated regarding this matter, because you have already blindly handed over your hard earned cash, maybe even your life savings, solely on trust, a hope and a prayer and without taking or listening to good advice. At the time you believed you were doing the right thing, took a gamble and you lost.

I have lived in Thailand and worked here in the past for over 30 years, my son is a policeman in Chaing Mai, one of the wife`s nephews is also a policeman and another nephew is a lawyer. I am not quoting these facts to boast, but to show that I know the score in Thailand and in my opinion you have no chance of retrieving back any of the monies you have plied into these ventures on behalf of other people to front your ownerships, even if you had Perry Mason on the case, because you have no clout under the laws.

Anything returned would be done only as a goodwill gesture of those who now hold the said assets in their names. All a lawyer can do is write and make a plea to them on your behalf.

Sorry to sound so harsh, but those are the facts and perhaps others will think twice as a lesson well learned?

Otherwise what else would you prefer to hear?

[Jerry Cornelius]

I'm coming out of a failed relationship where I purchased farming land and 2 homes for my former Thai partner. 3 properties are in my former partner's name and one in my partner's mother's name. Both individuals have agreed to transfer assets to a trustee in return for my paying off my former partner's debts which total about B 200,000. However one piece of land can only be signed over after another 9 years because it only gained Chanote status about a year ago. So all that can be done for that property is to sign an agreement to transfer in the future.

My question is, is it possible to create a fairly watertight agreement under Thai law where an individual gives a legally binding undertaking to transfer assets to a third party at any time in the future when I request it? For example, I may marry a Thai some time in the future and wish to transfer the assets to that person or I may decide to sell the land in the future to a third party.

My thinking is; 1) one property is only transferable after 9 years, so there will need to be an agreement created anyway; 2) by doing agreements for all properties I won't waste money on the transfer fees to a trustee which are about 5% of the property values.

Any comments appreciated.

You know, I've never heard of any time limitation regarding the sale of land which is held by chanote,

If this were true, there are many developers (of many nationalities), selling land and property illegally throughot Thailand.

Jerry

[khunPer]

You will need an experienced lawyer.

To my knowledge, you may be able to have loan servitude on the Chanute land for fx. 220.000 baht registered at the land department (will be stated on the back of the Chanute land deed). The loan can be in your name and the land cannot be sold and transferred, without the loan – and interest – has been paid in full. Maximum legal interest is 15% pa. That will work as kind of guarantee for your money. To my knowledge, an alien (farang) can take over a plot of land as in heritage or from a loan security etc., but the alien has to sell or transfer the land to a Thai national – or limited company – within six month.

Wish you luck.

[Jerry Cornelius]

You will need an experienced lawyer.

To my knowledge, you may be able to have loan servitude on the Chanute land for fx. 220.000 baht registered at the land department (will be stated on the back of the Chanute land deed). The loan can be in your name and the land cannot be sold and transferred, without the loan – and interest – has been paid in full. Maximum legal interest is 15% pa. That will work as kind of guarantee for your money. To my knowledge, an alien (farang) can take over a plot of land as in heritage or from a loan security etc., but the alien has to sell or transfer the land to a Thai national – or limited company – within six month.

Wish you luck.

If you inheret the land, you must dispose of the asset within 12 months to a Thai or other person who can legitimately own the land.

[donx]

I'm coming out of a failed relationship where I purchased farming land and 2 homes for my former Thai partner. 3 properties are in my former partner's name and one in my partner's mother's name. Both individuals have agreed to transfer assets to a trustee in return for my paying off my former partner's debts which total about B 200,000. However one piece of land can only be signed over after another 9 years because it only gained Chanote status about a year ago. So all that can be done for that property is to sign an agreement to transfer in the future.

My question is, is it possible to create a fairly watertight agreement under Thai law where an individual gives a legally binding undertaking to transfer assets to a third party at any time in the future when I request it? For example, I may marry a Thai some time in the future and wish to transfer the assets to that person or I may decide to sell the land in the future to a third party.

My thinking is; 1) one property is only transferable after 9 years, so there will need to be an agreement created anyway; 2) by doing agreements for all properties I won't waste money on the transfer fees to a trustee which are about 5% of the property values.

Any comments appreciated.

You know, I've never heard of any time limitation regarding the sale of land which is held by chanote,

If this were true, there are many developers (of many nationalities), selling land and property illegally throughot Thailand.

Jerry

Jerry, this is actually quite common in the countyside where properties didn't have chanote titles. The local land departments convert old land documents to full chanote title with the stipulation that the newly titled land can't be sold for the next 10 years.

My wife recently "sold" such a property which has some number of years before it can legally be transferred. The buyers didn't care that the chanote hasn't officially changed hands because the value of the property resides in the rubber trees that are growing on it. They effectively paid for the right to use the land and to have their name placed on the chanote at a later date. In this situation between local Thai families there were no legal documents signed. Money was transferred and the land is now being tended by the buyers. If my wife doesn't transfer the land in the future, then there will be trouble in the village. The buyers know this and know that my wife will sign over the chanote at a later date.

[Jerry Cornelius]

I'm coming out of a failed relationship where I purchased farming land and 2 homes for my former Thai partner. 3 properties are in my former partner's name and one in my partner's mother's name. Both individuals have agreed to transfer assets to a trustee in return for my paying off my former partner's debts which total about B 200,000. However one piece of land can only be signed over after another 9 years because it only gained Chanote status about a year ago. So all that can be done for that property is to sign an agreement to transfer in the future.

My question is, is it possible to create a fairly watertight agreement under Thai law where an individual gives a legally binding undertaking to transfer assets to a third party at any time in the future when I request it? For example, I may marry a Thai some time in the future and wish to transfer the assets to that person or I may decide to sell the land in the future to a third party.

My thinking is; 1) one property is only transferable after 9 years, so there will need to be an agreement created anyway; 2) by doing agreements for all properties I won't waste money on the transfer fees to a trustee which are about 5% of the property values.

Any comments appreciated.

You know, I've never heard of any time limitation regarding the sale of land which is held by chanote,

If this were true, there are many developers (of many nationalities), selling land and property illegally throughot Thailand.

Jerry

Jerry, this is actually quite common in the countyside where properties didn't have chanote titles. The local land departments convert old land documents to full chanote title with the stipulation that the newly titled land can't be sold for the next 10 years.

My wife recently "sold" such a property which has some number of years before it can legally be transferred. The buyers didn't care that the chanote hasn't officially changed hands because the value of the property resides in the rubber trees that are growing on it. They effectively paid for the right to use the land and to have their name placed on the chanote at a later date. In this situation between local Thai families there were no legal documents signed. Money was transferred and the land is now being tended by the buyers. If my wife doesn't transfer the land in the future, then there will be trouble in the village. The buyers know this and know that my wife will sign over the chanote at a later date.

Accepting the validity of the OP's statement. Ten years seems a very long time to validate the true ownership of the land. Particularly for land under a chanote title.

I appreciate and accept the context of what you say.

We have only recently sold a property that was recorded as a chanote plus one of these local agreements. This was also accepted by the local Land Office without issue.

Perhaps the OP is misleading in its context and/or their understanding and hopefully these last few posts will encourage them to seek more precise information before making any decision..

Jerry

[khunPer]

I'm coming out of a failed relationship where I purchased farming land and 2 homes for my former Thai partner. 3 properties are in my former partner's name and one in my partner's mother's name. Both individuals have agreed to transfer assets to a trustee in return for my paying off my former partner's debts which total about B 200,000. However one piece of land can only be signed over after another 9 years because it only gained Chanote status about a year ago. So all that can be done for that property is to sign an agreement to transfer in the future.

My question is, is it possible to create a fairly watertight agreement under Thai law where an individual gives a legally binding undertaking to transfer assets to a third party at any time in the future when I request it? For example, I may marry a Thai some time in the future and wish to transfer the assets to that person or I may decide to sell the land in the future to a third party.

My thinking is; 1) one property is only transferable after 9 years, so there will need to be an agreement created anyway; 2) by doing agreements for all properties I won't waste money on the transfer fees to a trustee which are about 5% of the property values.

Any comments appreciated.

You know, I've never heard of any time limitation regarding the sale of land which is held by chanote,

If this were true, there are many developers (of many nationalities), selling land and property illegally throughot Thailand.

Jerry

Jerry, this is actually quite common in the countyside where properties didn't have chanote titles. The local land departments convert old land documents to full chanote title with the stipulation that the newly titled land can't be sold for the next 10 years.

My wife recently "sold" such a property which has some number of years before it can legally be transferred. The buyers didn't care that the chanote hasn't officially changed hands because the value of the property resides in the rubber trees that are growing on it. They effectively paid for the right to use the land and to have their name placed on the chanote at a later date. In this situation between local Thai families there were no legal documents signed. Money was transferred and the land is now being tended by the buyers. If my wife doesn't transfer the land in the future, then there will be trouble in the village. The buyers know this and know that my wife will sign over the chanote at a later date.

To my knowledge, most important is to do all paperwork in presence of Head-of-Village and with his signature as witnes (even agreement for sale/transfer of Chanute land, later notified at Land Department).