Russia will enforce anti-gay propaganda law at Sochi Olympics, govt says

[NanLaew]

....

Sorry, I don't do controversialist polemics.

Thanks for standing down. The other gay guy seems to be managing those quite well on his own anyway.

Sincerely,

The Peanut Gallery

I have no problem with being called "gay". Its not something I'm proud of any more than its something I'm ashamed of as its just the way I was born; its neither an achievement nor a failing, something to boast about or something to hide - it just is what it is.

I didn't mean you silly. I meant Publicus's mate. You know, the foodie one.

[Jingthing]

The organizers of the Miss Universe 2013 show intend to hold the event in Moscow in spite of the "anti-gay" law.

http://www.tmz.com/2013/08/20/miss-universe-pageant-moscow-anti-gay-law/

... and another piece of information for those who might does not know:

SPI Group which produces Vodka "Stoli" (Stolichnaya) and "Moskovksaya" is not a Russian company. These brands even are not sold on the territory of the Russian Federation. The headquarters of SPI Group is in Luxembourg. The production is exported from Latvia. Only some ingredients are imported from Russia and the Group has one of its factories in Russia. ....

Miss Universe staying in Russia is OK as that is another potential international stage for visible protest against Russia's persecution of gay people.

Paula Shugart, the president of the Miss Universe Organization, contacted The Advocate directly to reiterate this statement and stress that the show's broadcast will help shine a world spotlight on these injustices.

“I think anytime people can put a spotlight on something and discuss it, that goes a long way to helping … social change,” said Shugart, pointing out positive effects that occured after it hosted its competition in Vietnam in 2008. “There’s a lot of opportunities here.”

“We have very, very close ties to the LGBT communities,” she added. “And I want to make sure that you’re aware of that and everyone’s aware of that. And that’s not something we would turn our back on.”

http://www.advocate.com/arts-entertainment/entertainment-news/2013/08/20/miss-universe-organization-no-russia-boycott

As far as the Stoli boycott, it doesn't actually MATTER where it is produced, it's a TACTIC and it's WORKING:

Ultimately, the boycott has informed more people about gay rights in Russia, and it probably hasn't hurt Stoli too badly, so there's a net positive. That makes it harder for politicians, companies, and organizations involved with Russia and the 2014 Olympics to keep quiet on the issue. Hopefully that means an increase in international pressure on Putin and Russian lawmakers to make life better for LGBT people, but it remains to be seen whether that will happen. And yes, Putin and Russian lawmakers, not gay vodka boycotters or slacktivists, have the final say on policy. But the very fact that we'ret talking about Russian gay rights months before the 2014 Olympics is an achievement.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/08/russian-vodka-boycott-working-whether-you-it-or-not/68136/

Edited August 21, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Update on "The Kiss":

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Russian Athletes Say Kiss 'Was Not Political'

...

This might be a huge letdown to heterosexual men. Oh well, civil rights movements have their ups and downs.

[Jingthing]

Again read his words. His didn't saying anything of the kind that he is being charged with here. Bringing a political issue to Putin's attention is NOT remotely the same thing as being to blame for the persecution of Russian gay people! The readers shall decide.

Back on point,

Masha Gessen, Russian Lesbian Journalist

"What they're doing with this law is they're enshrining second-class citizenship," she added. "So in that sense it's very much like the laws in Nazi Germany. It makes it a crime to say that a group is socially equal to another group. So I said this is creeping Fascism, and if you don't want us to become a Fascist country, then don't just stand by, put on a pink triangle."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/20/masha-gessen-gay-russia_n_3786081.html

The long version of the video:

http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/gay-russian-journalist-flees-country/520be3ec2b8c2a4c13000171

She stated that "as a gay parent I must flee Russia or lose my children."

Edited August 21, 2013 by Jingthing

[Publicus]

What LC claims this one activist is responsible for ... the persecution of gays in Russia ... and claims this activist says he is responsible for that ... is clearly an absurdly gross distortion of what the activist said. He said NOTHING even close to what he is being blamed for, charged with, accused of admitting himself. Judge for yourself. Read the actual words. What LC has done I classify as extremely toxic and cynically dishonest spin. Again, the BLAME is on the persecutors. PERIOD.

The man wanted gay pride parades, did he? How horrible. Crucify him! Crucify him!

Thank the goddess that MOST of the world's political aware gay people know who the ENEMY is in this fight. It is Putin. It is the government of Russia. It is not any gay activist.

The above post clarifies the topic of the thread, the issue, the cause. It's a good and necessary reminder out here so far away from the OP.

I would add to it in one respect.

The demonstrations outside the Duma when the law was being enacted counted on the government's reaction in order to call public attention to the law and the government's forceful over reaction against the demonstrations. The public includes the global public, the closeby European public especially.

A poster to this thread quoted from the principles of the U.S. Civil Rights Movement and that is relevant here. The Rev Dr Martin Luther King and his advisors counted on the local and state governments of the U.S. South to react, indeed, to over react, to civil rights demonstrations in communities throughout the South.

Dr King's thinking was that once the American people saw the police and state violence against peaceful, passively resistant demonstrators on their televisions, the public would sympathize with the demonstrators against the police and the governments throughout the South. Dr King was right.

It's shameful the same cannot be said about this issue in Russia a full 50 years post the U.S. Civil Rights Movement.

[Jingthing]

I want to suggest that the pro scapegoating Alekseyev vs. the con scapegoating Alekseyev sides have been OVERDONE here already and that the question is tangential anyway to where Russia is at NOW as Sochi approaches. I think anyone who cares about this side show has plenty of source info to make up their mind about that, so why don't we just move on now to more CURRENT and central aspects of this topic?

The controversy about the anti-gay laws in Russia, the Nazi type group beatings of gays in Russia, and how this relates to SOCHI has caught the attention of the world's news media. Alekseyev scapegoating, or not, really not, and never will be. So why here?

Edited August 21, 2013 by Jingthing

[Publicus]

....

Sorry, I don't do controversialist polemics.

Thanks for standing down. The other gay guy seems to be managing those quite well on his own anyway.

Sincerely,

The Peanut Gallery

I have no problem with being called "gay". Its not something I'm proud of any more than its something I'm ashamed of as its just the way I was born; its neither an achievement nor a failing, something to boast about or something to hide - it just is what it is.

I didn't mean you silly. I meant Publicus's mate. You know, the foodie one.

[Jingthing]

Let's not make the mistake of the world being SILENT and to do NOTHING in the face of persecution of a hated minority ...

[Publicus]

Let's not make the mistake of the world being SILENT and to do NOTHING in the face of persecution of a hated minority ...

Yes, I share your view that the problem resides with the Russian Government and its "anti-gay propaganda" law.

The targeted minority was reacting to the enactment of the odious law - they were doing the right thing.

Nothing was going to stop the law. So the affected minority group could publically protest or stay home. Writing their Member of the Duma wasn't going to accomplish anything. Sitting around in private griping wasn't going to accomplish anything. Doing Skype with a gay rights activist in the U.S. to commiserate wasn't going to accomplish anything. Figuring out reasons not to do anything certainly wasn't going to accomplish anything.

Unless one wants to include Prez Obama, the Gay Rights Movement in the U.S. does not have a Martin Luther King equivalent, though there are several leading figures spread over time.

The effort in Russia is just beginning and it has a strong kick start because all of this Putin madness has been brought to the world's attention via the 2014 Winter Olympic Games in Russia. This global support for the isolated Russian gays is invaluable at this time and will help Russian gays to respond effectively sooner rather than later.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Publicus

[Publicus]

Let's not make the mistake of the world being SILENT and to do NOTHING in the face of persecution of a hated minority ...

It worked for them for 10 years, from 1993, when there were visible improvements, increased "visibility" and a marked drop in "persecution" ... who knows how much better off they'd be NOW if that trend had been allowed to continue?

Doing something just for the sake of it, particularly if we feel guilty about it, is not the answer.

Who knows how much better off they'd be now if Vladimir Putin had not come to power in the year 2000?

[Jingthing]

The fight against persecution of gays in Russia will be fought on many Russian fronts (and backs).

The idea of today, protest boxer shorts from designer Kristof Buntinx, To Russia With Love, with Russian symbols on them, do you think it has legs?

Yes this is for real. Link not provided (a bit too racy).

Edited August 21, 2013 by Jingthing

[Scott]

I have done a clean up of the last few pages and further off-topic posts will earn lengthy suspensions. This is no one's personal thread. It is about a law, it's enforcement and the Russian Olympics.

You have been warned.

[Jingthing]

Another form of protest, high profile boycotts of a variety of international Russian events. Every little bit helps.

http://www.advocate.com/society/coming-out/2013/08/21/wentworth-miller-comes-out-blasts-russias-antigay-laws

Wentworth Miller Comes Out, Blasts Russia's Antigay Laws
"Wentworth's bold show of support sends a powerful message to LGBT Russians, who are facing extreme violence and persecution: you are not alone," Cruz said. "As people from across the globe continue to speak out against Russia's horrific law, more celebrities and corporations should follow his courageous lead in openly condemning Russia's anti-LGBT law."

Edited August 22, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

Although the "messages" on boycotting Sochi, other venues, businesses, etc, are "mixed", as is only to be expected, there do appear to be some common threads. This is only my impression, but as far as I can see it is supported by the links and quotes given here by other posters (whatever their views)

Russian "exiles" - those living OUTSIDE Russia either by choice or by virtue of asylum, particularly in the USA - seem to be keen on boycotting anything "Russian", as well as Sochi and any other international events held in Russia.

Russian gays and "gay activists" living INSIDE Russia seem unanimous that Sochi and Russian goods should NOT be boycotted - some prefer that Sochi be used for LGBT protests, varying from rainbow pins, etc, to statements and flag waving, while some prefer that it be purely a sporting event and they are "out of sight and out of mind", but NONE seem to want a boycott or the games moved. The reason would seem obvious - while other countries, businesses, etc, will very obviously be targeting and blaming the Russian government and Putin, Russians generally will blame Russian gays. That may be (and in my view is) totally unjustified and unfair, but that's simply what will happen - "our games were moved because of you .... we've lost business because of you".

Before acting we need to think very carefully about what the immediate and direct effects of our actions are - things that appear one way to us in the safety and comfort of our ivory towers IN THE WEST can be taken very differently and have a very different effect IN RUSSIA and particularly on RUSSIAN GAYS. We need to listen to the seven million gays living IN RUSSIA, not a few who are fortunate to be unaffected by both the laws and the effects of any boycotts, etc, because they are NOT LIVING THERE.

[Jingthing]

Maybe the Russian people might grow up someday and blame PUTIN for the international reaction to their fascistic policies towards their gay people. The gay people there are ALREADY being scapegoated. To argue DO NOTHING so they won't be scapegoated more -- in my view there is no way the majority of Russian gays would be happy about NO international reaction. This international reaction is a source of hope for Russian gays; there have been plenty of messages from Russia to that effect.

[Jingthing]

Like it or not, Putin did not engineer the laws nor is he responsible for the homophobia, which was worse before he was even born - this politicising has no relevance to this issue.

Maybe you could suggest an alternative Russian leader who had even half Putin's popular vote who would have made Russian gays "better off", who would have voted against the laws, vetoed the Pride bans, etc?

Putin is the dictator of Russia. It's natural to blame such a strong leader for the ills of his country. He has the power to change things if he wants. Even now, he has the power to crack down on the violent attackers of gays, but he doesn't, which would be better than nothing. POLITICS is a big part of this story. Of course it is relevant. Politics is ALWAYS relevant to public policy, legal policy, social policy in ANY country.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Jingthing

[Scott]

Apparently some posters are having trouble reading and comprehending. STAY ON TOPIC.

The first forum rule is this one:

1) To respect fellow members

It will be enforced. Another post has been deleted, but patience is at a premium.

[Jingthing]

James Kirchick is my hero! Seriously, he really is.

The Russian Today network in response to this political protest had Kirchick's taxicab to the Stockholm Airport leave him on the side of the highway.

Start at 1:30. This is classic:

"I’m not really interested in talking about Bradley [now Chelsea] Manning," Kirchick said. "I’m interested in talking about the horrific environment of homophobia in Russia right now. I’m interested in talking about the horrific environment of homophobia in Russia right now, and to let the Russian gay people know that they have friends and allies in solidarity from people all over the world, and that we’re not going to be silenced in the face horrific repression that is perpetrated by your paymaster, Vladimir Putin. That’s what I’m here to talk about."

More:

There have been many expressions of displeasure with Russian president Vladimir Putin’s anti-gay laws. Some have been relatively quiet. I’m thinking of openly gay Bravo television chief and host Andy Cohen’s decision to boycott emceeing the Miss Universe pageant in Moscow this November. And then there’s openly gay American journalist Jamie Kirchick, who took his displeasure with Russia’s homophobic laws to heroic new heights during an interview on the Russia Today television show.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2013/08/21/no-love-for-russia-today-from-jamie-kirchick/

Edited August 22, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

This item suggests this image has become the icon of anti-Putin protest on the gay persecution issue:

http://www.advocate.com/society/activism/2013/08/23/photos-spain-puckers-putin?page=0,4

OK, I get it. It's effective enough but I think there is a problem with it. The image portrays Putin as some kind of drag queen, in other words dissing Putin as being gay which is kind of a problem if you're fighting AGAINST homophobia.

Imagine a protest against the anti-semitism of an Iranian leader that portrays him as an exagerrated stereotyped Jew. It wouldn't be done.

So why are gay protesters doing this? Does it show internalized homophobia?

Edited August 24, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Follow up on the heroic protest of journalist James Kirchick on RT:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/45755883/ns/msnbc-the_last_word/vp/52824223/#52824223

The full and accurate story of the taxi ride punishment is also told. RT ordered the driver to kick him out but then Kirchick offered to pay for the rest of the ride, but it ended up being comped by the taxi company.

At the Swedish studio the crew gave Kirchick a standing ovation!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-i-ambushed-russias-news-network-with-rainbow-suspenders/2013/08/22/237ba62a-0b2d-11e3-8974-f97ab3b3c677_story_1.html

Edited August 25, 2013 by Jingthing

[Potosi]

I expect excellent sport in Sochi, and sincerely hope the gays don't make it a stage for their agenda no one else cares about.

[Jingthing]

I expect excellent sport in Sochi, and sincerely hope the gays don't make it a stage for their agenda no one else cares about.

Yeah sure just like the Jews didn't make Berlin 1936 a stage for their agenda that no one else cared about ...

http://www.jewishsports.net/PillarAchievementBios/SamStoller.html

Better the Jews HAD made Berlin a stage of protest and better now "the gays" make Sochi Russia a stage of protest too.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Jingthing

[Potosi]

I expected you to reply with some Nazi-cliche, you don't have anything better. Not sure the Jews are happy with your comparison, there is more to their heritage than sexual preference. Does it occur to you that many people just don't want to be annoyed with your troubles, but care for the sport, and a long list of other issues?

[Jingthing]

I expected you to reply with some Nazi-cliche, you don't have anything better. Not sure the Jews are happy with your comparison, there is more to their heritage than sexual preference. Does it occur to you that many people just don't want to be annoyed with your troubles, but care for the sport, and a long list of other issues?

My troubles? I am not Russian, dude. Message received. One person who will disapprove of the protests coming at Sochi.

Anyway, not really sure what you're communicating here except for an intense hostility towards people who want to do something about the persecution of gay people in Russia. I can't respect that.

Back to the topic. Another take on explaining how it is that gays became scapegoated in Russia, not the extremely questionable line we've been hearing here that it's the gay activists fault. Written by Russian / American/ Jewish / Lesbian. Uh oh!

Also note -- I cannot take credit for the Sochi - Berlin 1936 comparison so please don't give it to me. It's out there thanks to a number of famous people like Harvey Fierstein.

"The Jews" are not one thing any more than "the gays" or "the Thais" are one thing ...

Here’s how all this came about: When more than 100,000 Russians came out to protest rigged elections in December 2011, Vladimir Putin looked at them and saw The Enemy. In Putin's mind, anyone who opposes his rule opposes Russia itself. So the protesters must have been foreigners, or, if not, they had to be The Other. Early on, he accused then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton of having personally inspired the protests. A few months later, this idea of The Other turned into the laws on foreign agents and espionage and into the ban on American adoptions--and eventually into the law on “homosexual propaganda,” for no one represents Western influence and otherness better than gays and lesbians.

*edited for fair Use*

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2013/08/26/when_putin_declared_war_on_gay_families_it_was_time_for_mine_to_leave_russia.html

It's also worth noting that one doesn't have to be gay to care about gay rights, as gay rights are human rights. Thanks to a number of events including Putin's scapegoating of Russian gays, the gay rights issue has become truly an INTERNATIONAL issue ... and what better venue for an international issue than an international event like the Olympics when it is hosted in a country violating human rights?

http://www.advocate.com/commentary/2013/08/26/op-ed-gay-rights-finally-are-human-rights-here-and-abroad

Edited August 27, 2013 by Scott
Fair Use

[Totster]

Still whinging on about this then.. Jews, nazis, holocaust and Hitler.... (oh, and not's let forget the actual topic of anti gay propaganda)

totster

[Jingthing]

Still whinging on about this then.. Jews, nazis, holocaust and Hitler.... (oh, and not's let forget the actual topic of anti gay propaganda)

totster

"Anti-gay propaganda" is a cover for persecution and scapegoating of gay people in Russia. Nobody is saying there is a genocide of gays happening in Russia; that seems to be your trip to act like they have. There has been according to reports an increase in violent attacks on sexual minorities since the national anti-gay propaganda law was passed and there doesn't appear to be any leadership displayed from Putin to make clear that these kinds of anti-gay hate crimes are not going to tolerated. Some elements in Russia society see the state sanctioned scapegoating of gay people as kind of a call for "open season" on gay people.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Scott
mistake?

[Jingthing]

An interesting voice from Russia has emerged on twitter:

https://twitter.com/ru_lgbt_teen

http://www.queerty.com/gay-teen-tweets-about-his-life-in-russia-where-he-says-gays-are-not-people-20130827/

On how gay people are treated in Russia: In Russia, gays are not people.

Of course he wants to leave Russia! Who could blame him? He is anti boycott of Sochi. He is PRO western attention focused on homophobia in Russia. Big time.

"Only faith, work, love and medicines can be cure the terrible disease - homosexuality."

GayTeen from Russia ‏@ru_lgbt_teen

This painting is a reality today. And it's very scary in what direction is evolving Russian state system

Edited August 28, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Obama in Moscow NOT meeting with Putin.

But MAY be meeting with some Russian human rights activists, including LGBT human rights activists.

The story has not been CONFIRMED by the state deparment.

So, instead of chilling with Putin, President Obama will sit with a slew of Russian activists, including human rights allies Lev Ponomarev and Lyudmila Alexeyeva, as well as the St. Petersburg-based gay group Coming Out. Another LGBT group, the LGBT Network, would not confirm their attendance — "[we've been] asked not to say anything," said director Igor Kochetkov — nor has the State Department confirmed this story, first reported by BuzzFeed.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/obama-to-meet-with-russian-activists-on-g20-sidelines

http://www.out.com/news-opinion/2013/09/03/obama-meet-russian-gay-groups-week

Edited September 3, 2013 by Jingthing

[Benmart]

Sounds like, "They came and took my neighbor away because he was gay. I'm not gay so I didn't care". Then they took my other neighbor away because he was a political upstart. I don't get involved in politics, so I didn't care. Then they too another neighbor away because he was a union organizer. I don't belong to a union, so I did nothing. Then they took me away".

The Russians seem to be inviting and supporting a regime that replays a old tune from years ago entitled, "Repression and Gulag Memories". I just hope they are prepared for what it can evolve into.

[Publicus]

The Sochi Olympics early next year will provide a new focus on Russia's abysmal human rights record in connection with this thread topic in particular, its corruption, and its incompetence in preparing the winter Olympics venue.

This further proves that Putin is in government entirely for himself and his cronies and loyalists, not for the Russian people.

Putin's Victories On Snowden, Syria, And Sochi Are All Shallow

The Games are now 500 percent over budget, and the most expensive of all time — and that money is largely going to corruption rather than any infrastructural investment that might continue to pay dividends to the Russian people.

The $7+ billion in contracts awarded to the companies of a single childhood friend of Putin's exceeded the entire budget of the last Winter Olympics in Vancouver.

Suffice it to say, by the time the Sochi Olympics come around, the focus will be on anything but athletics.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/putins-victories-on-snowden-syria-and-sochi-are-all-shallow-2013-9#ixzz2fMqACgMP