Thai gay activists silence is deafening about Russian persecution of gay people

[Ace of Pop]

I like Jingthings Posts but never post any Comments in The Gay Section. The reason is i find Gay Pride Marches as unacceptable as I would a Hetero Pride March. Theres no need, it only inflames the simple.My Gay friends are Anti Marches also. As one whose spent my life Womanizing, i never bother if a friends Gay of not.

[Jingthing]

I like Jingthings Posts but never post any Comments in The Gay Section. The reason is i find Gay Pride Marches as unacceptable as I would a Hetero Pride March. Theres no need, it only inflames the simple.My Gay friends are Anti Marches also. As one whose spent my life Womanizing, i never bother if a friends Gay of not.

The topic of this thread has NOTHING to do with Gay Pride parades. That topic has been discussed ad nauseam here in other threads. Not every public action by gay people in any country is a Gay Pride parade.

Here is a topic SPECIFICALLY about the Gay Parade issue. Knock yourself out!

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/559861-are-gay-pride-parades-globally-good-for-the-gay-community/?hl=%2Bparades

Edited August 16, 2013 by Jingthing

[onthemoon]

Everybody keeps saying that Russians are European but are they? I know that part of Russia is in Europe but it shares land borders with countries are far apart as Norway and China and the Russians are largely descended from Slavic forebears.

I always wander why I am expected to fill in "Caucasian" when an immigration form asks for "race". Do you know where the Caucasus is? I always fill in "European".

Yes, Russia is in Europe up to the Caucasus, and in Asia east of that. So, most of Russia is in Asia.

[Ace of Pop]

I like Jingthings Posts but never post any Comments in The Gay Section. The reason is i find Gay Pride Marches as unacceptable as I would a Hetero Pride March. Theres no need, it only inflames the simple.My Gay friends are Anti Marches also. As one whose spent my life Womanizing, i never bother if a friends Gay of not.

The topic of this thread has NOTHING to do with Gay Pride parades. That topic has been discussed ad nauseam here in other threads. Not every public action by gay people in any country is a Gay Pride parade.

Here is a topic SPECIFICALLY about the Gay Parade issue. Knock yourself out!

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/559861-are-gay-pride-parades-globally-good-for-the-gay-community/?hl=%2Bparades

O.K. but i prefer a Low Key approach to all protests.

[Jingthing]

O.K. but i prefer a Low Key approach to all protests.

In Russia, low key, middle key, high key, if it's pro gay rights, it's ILLEGAL.

[WitawatWatawit]

The Thai gay community has been known to come out and protest about certain issues in the past (can't recall specific instances, off the bat). Presuming some people did protest outside the Russian embassy (and I really hope they do) would it just be a "one-hit wonder" type of situation? Would it be regarded as an issue that's so close to their collective hearts that the protest would be prolonged and followed up with further action (letters, etc)? Or a case of saying, well we've done our bit, let's go home? In other words, would there be any point to it? Would anyone care or take notice? Yes, it would probably get a mention in the local news and then it would be forgotten. JT posed the question of whether the "deafening silence" is a lack of interest. Or could it be simple disinterest? Or could it be selectivity of issues (as per Thailand's protest about Egypt compared to its silence over Syria - apart from co-signing a letter warning Bashad not to use cluster bombs)?

For my part, I would go with disinterest and selectivity of issues.

[LeCharivari]

Thai gay activist aren't showing interest in treatment of gays in ANY foreign country, now are they? So let's be honest and not play silly games here. Not all that much gay activist political activity EVEN in their OWN country actually. Thailand is a leader of Asean. If you're going to focus on affinity: where's the protest of criminalization of homosexuality in Malaysia and Burma?

Yes, indeed, let's be honest and not play silly games here. If you want to talk about Thai gay activists and the lack of them playing your games that is an entirely different topic, which has been discussed ad nauseam elsewhere.

The subject is "Thai gay activists silence is deafening about Russian persecution of gay people". RUSSIAN.

[Jingthing]

Thai gay activist aren't showing interest in treatment of gays in ANY foreign country, now are they? So let's be honest and not play silly games here. Not all that much gay activist political activity EVEN in their OWN country actually. Thailand is a leader of Asean. If you're going to focus on affinity: where's the protest of criminalization of homosexuality in Malaysia and Burma?

Yes, indeed, let's be honest and not play silly games here. If you want to talk about Thai gay activists and the lack of them playing your games that is an entirely different topic, which has been discussed ad nauseam elsewhere.

The subject is "Thai gay activists silence is deafening about Russian persecution of gay people". RUSSIAN.

Yes sir!

[Jingthing]

The Thai gay community has been known to come out and protest about certain issues in the past (can't recall specific instances, off the bat). Presuming some people did protest outside the Russian embassy (and I really hope they do) would it just be a "one-hit wonder" type of situation? Would it be regarded as an issue that's so close to their collective hearts that the protest would be prolonged and followed up with further action (letters, etc)? Or a case of saying, well we've done our bit, let's go home? In other words, would there be any point to it? Would anyone care or take notice? Yes, it would probably get a mention in the local news and then it would be forgotten. JT posed the question of whether the "deafening silence" is a lack of interest. Or could it be simple disinterest? Or could it be selectivity of issues (as per Thailand's protest about Egypt compared to its silence over Syria - apart from co-signing a letter warning Bashad not to use cluster bombs)?

For my part, I would go with disinterest and selectivity of issues.

Honestly, I personally think the Thai gay activist movement in Thailand, such as it is, is a very WEAK and disorganized movement that also lacks coherent and competent LEADERSHIP. I also think that if they DID get more linked to the INTERNATIONAL gay rights movement which right now is focused indeed on RUSSIA, they would actually raise their status and face and even POWER within Thai society. A win win. Nothing wrong with having multiple purposes. Yes, I know the usual and odd to find on a "gay" forum" peanut gallery of extremist anti-gay activists won't like this idea and will go on believing the Thai gay way is the best of all possible worlds. Somehow I never managed to get my rose colored glasses scrip filled. Sorry about that.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Jingthing

[WitawatWatawit]

Disorganised would suggest some sort of organisation in the first place. Well, there is a gay organisation, but their problem is not disorganisation (at least as far as I can see from a casual observer's point of view) but lack of motivation. Which, of course, reinforces your argument. And mine about disinterest. A former colleague who has been writing about gay issues for years has been conspicuously quiet of late. I suspect it might be because of frustration, as the last time I saw him at his restaurant/art gallery in the Ngam Duphli area, he was even then questioning whether to continue his column. That would have been about six years ago.

[Jingthing]

I don't mean to suggest that Thai gay activists "must" or "should" get their act together. Just observing that they clearly don't. If there isn't the political will among them, so be it, because of course, it IS their country.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

The Thai gay community has been known to come out and protest about certain issues in the past (can't recall specific instances, off the bat). Presuming some people did protest outside the Russian embassy (and I really hope they do) would it just be a "one-hit wonder" type of situation? Would it be regarded as an issue that's so close to their collective hearts that the protest would be prolonged and followed up with further action (letters, etc)? Or a case of saying, well we've done our bit, let's go home? In other words, would there be any point to it? Would anyone care or take notice? Yes, it would probably get a mention in the local news and then it would be forgotten. JT posed the question of whether the "deafening silence" is a lack of interest. Or could it be simple disinterest? Or could it be selectivity of issues (as per Thailand's protest about Egypt compared to its silence over Syria - apart from co-signing a letter warning Bashad not to use cluster bombs)?

For my part, I would go with disinterest and selectivity of issues.

Why do you "really hope" they pick on Russia in particular?

Some here (and elsewhere) clearly have an anti-Putin stance and would appear to be using gay issues as an excuse for some Putin bashing (based on the premise that Russia is "European", etc, etc) so it is justifiable to single them out, but what possible reason would Thais have to do that, as it has been suggested they should, and as is the subject of this thread?

Or after the excuse for Putin-bashing is it just an excuse for some more Thai-gay-activist-bashing?

Edited August 17, 2013 by LeCharivari

[Jingthing]

Forget the Putin bashing, isn't it kind of weird for a gay man to actively be an APOLOGIST for Putin? Bending over backwards to attempt to minimize the importance and severity of Putin's anti-gay agenda. Calling such Putin puffery as stating the facts. I doubt there are many gay Russians like that!

Edited August 17, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

Forget the Putin bashing, isn't it kind of weird for a gay man to actively be an APOLOGIST for Putin? Bending over backwards to attempt to minimize the importance and severity of Putin's anti-gay agenda. Calling such Putin puffery as stating the facts. I doubt there are many gay Russians like that!

I have no idea.

If I ever meet a gay man who is "an APOLOGIST for Putin" I may ask them, although I'll probably mind my own business and try not to make things personal.

For my part, as I have previously explained, I don't know enough about Putin to comment on any "anti-gay agenda" he may or may not have or his politics. The homophobia in Russia is certainly not of his making and pre-dates Putin by centuries, and anyone looking at the timeline of anti-gay legislation can hardly argue with much justification that he instigated it (look at the DUMA vote in 2009).

I have no doubt that he is a homophobe and that his party is anti-gay; on the other hand, so are 75% of Russians and all the Russian political parties, so from a gay perspective (rather than a political one) I fail to see why I should single him out for particular castigation.

American gay activists with a parallel (or more important) political agenda may choose to single Putin out using this legislation as an excuse, but I prefer to be more open minded - as, I imagine are Thai gay activists, if they are interested in Russia at all.

Edited August 17, 2013 by LeCharivari

[Jingthing]

Putin is the dictator of Russia.

Putin is the one doing nothing to stop the wave of Nazi violence against gays in Russia, with gay YOUTH being the common targets.

Interesting that the new law was supposedly about protecting children.

Of course Putin isn't the whole story, but given his power, he's a big part of the story.

[WitawatWatawit]

The Thai gay community has been known to come out and protest about certain issues in the past (can't recall specific instances, off the bat). Presuming some people did protest outside the Russian embassy (and I really hope they do) would it just be a "one-hit wonder" type of situation? Would it be regarded as an issue that's so close to their collective hearts that the protest would be prolonged and followed up with further action (letters, etc)? Or a case of saying, well we've done our bit, let's go home? In other words, would there be any point to it? Would anyone care or take notice? Yes, it would probably get a mention in the local news and then it would be forgotten. JT posed the question of whether the "deafening silence" is a lack of interest. Or could it be simple disinterest? Or could it be selectivity of issues (as per Thailand's protest about Egypt compared to its silence over Syria - apart from co-signing a letter warning Bashad not to use cluster bombs)?

For my part, I would go with disinterest and selectivity of issues.

Why do you "really hope" they pick on Russia in particular?

Some here (and elsewhere) clearly have an anti-Putin stance and would appear to be using gay issues as an excuse for some Putin bashing (based on the premise that Russia is "European", etc, etc) so it is justifiable to single them out, but what possible reason would Thais have to do that, as it has been suggested they should, and as is the subject of this thread?

Or after the excuse for Putin-bashing is it just an excuse for some more Thai-gay-activist-bashing?

I really hope they protest on any such issues. Not just Russia - apologies if that confused anyone who can't see the broader picture. I don't know how you managed to link my comments to Putin when I've said zip about him, or Europe. But be that as it may, I see only positives if the Thai gay community were to express a public view on divisive, repressive issues of any kind. I think also that you are stretching a point to presume that I (or whoever you are referring to) am "Thai-gay-activist bashing". In fact it's a rather odd thing to say.

[Ace of Pop]

Heres one to Ponder..Say Legalised Marriage had been around for Years,there would by now be many cases where the likes of Eton John,would,or could be in a John Cleese situation,with that YankWoman. Perhaps Marrige would be well down the list for many Gay Men. Old Elton could loose the Lot. Sir Clifffs not stupid.

[Jingthing]

Yes, lawyers love legalized gay marriage.

But again this topic isn't about gay parades and it isn't about gay marriage.

Russia might be 100 years from legal gay marriage, at least as it looks now.

They're fighting for more BASIC rights.

Like not being beat up by Nazi mobs.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Jingthing

[manarak]

Yes, lawyers love legalized gay marriage.

But again this topic isn't about gay parades and it isn't about gay marriage.

Russia might be 100 years from legal gay marriage, at least as it looks now.

They're fighting for more BASIC rights.

Like not being beat up by Nazi mobs.

Any law wouldn't change anything about that.

Many Russians are, ummm... very crude people with strong beliefs and they hate everything which is "not normal" and are prone to use violence.

I don't want to generalize this to ALL Russians, but that's the way many are.

My guess is that gays in Russia will have to wait for minimum of one generation to be left alone and another generation to be able to speak up.

It's a matter of evolution, not a matter of legal rights.

Look at what Isanbayeva said:

"If we allow to promote and do all this stuff on the street, we are very afraid about our nation because we consider ourselves like normal, standard people," Isinbayeva, a two-time Olympic champion, said in English. "We just live with boys with woman, woman with boys.

"Everything must be fine. It comes from history. We never had any problems, these problems in Russia, and we don't want to have any in the future."

That's just thick as a brick, but that's the dominant thought in Russia.

[Ace of Pop]

Yes, lawyers love legalized gay marriage.

But again this topic isn't about gay parades and it isn't about gay marriage.

Russia might be 100 years from legal gay marriage, at least as it looks now.

They're fighting for more BASIC rights.

Like not being beat up by Nazi mobs.

Nice Side Step, but has a Big Money Divorce ever happened ?..Never mind the Topic its all about persecution , Russian or Otherwise.Or are us Hetero Guys being persecuted by You on a Technicality.

[Jingthing]

Yes, lawyers love legalized gay marriage.

But again this topic isn't about gay parades and it isn't about gay marriage.

Russia might be 100 years from legal gay marriage, at least as it looks now.

They're fighting for more BASIC rights.

Like not being beat up by Nazi mobs.

Nice Side Step, but has a Big Money Divorce ever happened ?..Never mind the Topic its all about persecution , Russian or Otherwise.Or are us Hetero Guys being persecuted by You on a Technicality.

I give up.

[LeCharivari]

The Thai gay community has been known to come out and protest about certain issues in the past (can't recall specific instances, off the bat). Presuming some people did protest outside the Russian embassy (and I really hope they do) would it just be a "one-hit wonder" type of situation? Would it be regarded as an issue that's so close to their collective hearts that the protest would be prolonged and followed up with further action (letters, etc)? Or a case of saying, well we've done our bit, let's go home? In other words, would there be any point to it? Would anyone care or take notice? Yes, it would probably get a mention in the local news and then it would be forgotten. JT posed the question of whether the "deafening silence" is a lack of interest. Or could it be simple disinterest? Or could it be selectivity of issues (as per Thailand's protest about Egypt compared to its silence over Syria - apart from co-signing a letter warning Bashad not to use cluster bombs)?

For my part, I would go with disinterest and selectivity of issues.

Why do you "really hope" they pick on Russia in particular?

Some here (and elsewhere) clearly have an anti-Putin stance and would appear to be using gay issues as an excuse for some Putin bashing (based on the premise that Russia is "European", etc, etc) so it is justifiable to single them out, but what possible reason would Thais have to do that, as it has been suggested they should, and as is the subject of this thread?

Or after the excuse for Putin-bashing is it just an excuse for some more Thai-gay-activist-bashing?

I really hope they protest on any such issues. Not just Russia - apologies if that confused anyone who can't see the broader picture. I don't know how you managed to link my comments to Putin when I've said zip about him, or Europe. But be that as it may, I see only positives if the Thai gay community were to express a public view on divisive, repressive issues of any kind. I think also that you are stretching a point to presume that I (or whoever you are referring to) am "Thai-gay-activist bashing". In fact it's a rather odd thing to say.

Just to clarify:

My question ( "Why do you "really hope" they pick on Russia in particular?" ) was directed to you as a result of your apparently singling out the Russian Embassy ( "... Presuming some people did protest outside the Russian embassy (and I really hope they do)...").

My point about Putin,etc, referred to "some here (and elsewhere)" - not you. There are so many examples to choose from, both here, and in the media - look for anything that refers to "dictator" and you'll find a political agenda taking precedence over a human rights one.

"Thai-gay-activist-bashing" is an odd and rather sad feature of this forum and a feature of so many threads I don't even know where to start. "Rather odd", as you say, in what's supposed to be a Gay Forum but as the title of one of the threads here suggests some gay men can be a gay man's worst enemy.

[Jingthing]

Noting that Thai gay activism is almost non-existent and what does exist is not impressive is hardly bashing. It's called OBSERVATION.

[LeCharivari]

Yes, lawyers love legalized gay marriage.

But again this topic isn't about gay parades and it isn't about gay marriage.

Russia might be 100 years from legal gay marriage, at least as it looks now.

They're fighting for more BASIC rights.

Like not being beat up by Nazi mobs.

Any law wouldn't change anything about that.

Many Russians are, ummm... very crude people with strong beliefs and they hate everything which is "not normal" and are prone to use violence.

I don't want to generalize this to ALL Russians, but that's the way many are.

My guess is that gays in Russia will have to wait for minimum of one generation to be left alone and another generation to be able to speak up.

It's a matter of evolution, not a matter of legal rights.

Look at what Isanbayeva said:

"If we allow to promote and do all this stuff on the street, we are very afraid about our nation because we consider ourselves like normal, standard people," Isinbayeva, a two-time Olympic champion, said in English. "We just live with boys with woman, woman with boys.

"Everything must be fine. It comes from history. We never had any problems, these problems in Russia, and we don't want to have any in the future."

That's just thick as a brick, but that's the dominant thought in Russia.

You beat me to it ... that sort of thing only comes from evolution and education, not from legislation.

In Russia general change comes slowly, slowly, from not upsetting the apple cart, and most of all from WITHIN ... look at the recent examples of glasnost, perestroika and uskoreniye and more over Russian history ... change has never happened due to outside pressure and frequently it has had exactly the opposite effect and united the Russian populace behind a strong leader, regardless of their politics.

[Scott]

A series of nasty, combative and off-topic posts have been deleted.

[WitawatWatawit]

The Thai gay community has been known to come out and protest about certain issues in the past (can't recall specific instances, off the bat). Presuming some people did protest outside the Russian embassy (and I really hope they do) would it just be a "one-hit wonder" type of situation? Would it be regarded as an issue that's so close to their collective hearts that the protest would be prolonged and followed up with further action (letters, etc)? Or a case of saying, well we've done our bit, let's go home? In other words, would there be any point to it? Would anyone care or take notice? Yes, it would probably get a mention in the local news and then it would be forgotten. JT posed the question of whether the "deafening silence" is a lack of interest. Or could it be simple disinterest? Or could it be selectivity of issues (as per Thailand's protest about Egypt compared to its silence over Syria - apart from co-signing a letter warning Bashad not to use cluster bombs)?

For my part, I would go with disinterest and selectivity of issues.

Why do you "really hope" they pick on Russia in particular?

Some here (and elsewhere) clearly have an anti-Putin stance and would appear to be using gay issues as an excuse for some Putin bashing (based on the premise that Russia is "European", etc, etc) so it is justifiable to single them out, but what possible reason would Thais have to do that, as it has been suggested they should, and as is the subject of this thread?

Or after the excuse for Putin-bashing is it just an excuse for some more Thai-gay-activist-bashing?

I really hope they protest on any such issues. Not just Russia - apologies if that confused anyone who can't see the broader picture. I don't know how you managed to link my comments to Putin when I've said zip about him, or Europe. But be that as it may, I see only positives if the Thai gay community were to express a public view on divisive, repressive issues of any kind. I think also that you are stretching a point to presume that I (or whoever you are referring to) am "Thai-gay-activist bashing". In fact it's a rather odd thing to say.

Just to clarify:

My question ( "Why do you "really hope" they pick on Russia in particular?" ) was directed to you as a result of your apparently singling out the Russian Embassy ( "... Presuming some people did protest outside the Russian embassy (and I really hope they do)...").

My point about Putin,etc, referred to "some here (and elsewhere)" - not you. There are so many examples to choose from, both here, and in the media - look for anything that refers to "dictator" and you'll find a political agenda taking precedence over a human rights one.

"Thai-gay-activist-bashing" is an odd and rather sad feature of this forum and a feature of so many threads I don't even know where to start. "Rather odd", as you say, in what's supposed to be a Gay Forum but as the title of one of the threads here suggests some gay men can be a gay man's worst enemy.

In case you failed to notice, the OP was about Russia. I could divert the thread to another country and other issues, but I'll stay on topic, if you don't mind.

You seem to be concerned about activist bashing. Are these people immune from criticism in your eyes? They're not in mine. I certainly did not enter this discussion with that intent in mind. Rather, the intent was to offer support to any activists who care to take up human rights (which includes gay rights) issues and to encourage them. If my comments come across as ill-intentioned in your eyes, and unacceptable to you, then I apologise and will withdraw from this thread.

Wit.

[LeCharivari]

In case you failed to notice, the OP was about Russia. I could divert the thread to another country and other issues, but I'll stay on topic, if you don't mind.

You seem to be concerned about activist bashing. Are these people immune from criticism in your eyes? They're not in mine. I certainly did not enter this discussion with that intent in mind. Rather, the intent was to offer support to any activists who care to take up human rights (which includes gay rights) issues and to encourage them. If my comments come across as ill-intentioned in your eyes, and unacceptable to you, then I apologise and will withdraw from this thread.

Wit.

You seem to have unfortunately mis-understood me once more - and your comments are certainly not "unacceptable" to me in any way, but are very welcome so I hope you will re-consider your withdrawal - there's little enough variety of view here as it is.

My point was that the thread was about "Thai gay activists", as well as Russia, and my concern was not "about activist bashing" but about gratuitous and repeated Thai-gay-activist-bashing.

Most people here are concerned about human rights, but what I find distasteful rather than "unacceptable" is scorning and disparaging another group of activists or people just because their aims and priorities are different from one's own (and that's not something I'm accusing you of, by the way).

Edited August 18, 2013 by LeCharivari

[onthemoon]

A German weekly TV show has picked up on the Russian problem (sorry, only in German).

Note: This is not a gay show, but political satire in general. Usually about German issues, but I think they couldn't resist about this.

Edited August 18, 2013 by onthemoon

[MilesofSmiles]

What's happening in Russia isn't very good. I don't think someone's sexual preference is any business of the state.

I feel sorry for them too, but it's not my fight.

Something I like about most Asian nations, is that they keep their nose and opinions out of other countries' affairs.

Thais are even less interested than most. It's not good or bad, it just is what it is.

Thailand is already tolerant of different sexualities, I think 'live and let live' is about as much as you'll get out of anyone here.

[Scott]

This news article has just come across the World News Feed:

Russian Lawmaker Proposes Taking Kids from Gay Parents

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/665973-russian-lawmaker-proposes-taking-kids-from-gay-parents/#entry6794728