Eastern <---> Western Hybrid Children

[greenwanderer108]

For those of you who are confused with the Title, I'm referring to mixed breed children. In Thai, they are generally referred to as Luuk kreungs ลูกครึ่ง which literally translates to Child-Half i.e. bi-racial mixed kid..

However, the term in many cases isn't the most precise. I, bread of a Thai mother (Siamese Japanese mut naturalized American 30 years ago) and American father (German English mut of 4-5 generations in the states) fall in to the half-half category. Certainly my genetic make up is far from a 50-50 mix...

Nevertheless, on a broad generalization, it is fair to say my genetic make up is half Asian, half Caucasian. (Eurasian is an ethnocentric colonialist inaccurate representation IMO)

Then there are those children who become even more extensive hybrids. i.e. kids of luuk kreungs. In most cases that I'm aware, luuk kreung's children are 25/75 mixes (though not precise for reasons mentioned previously) The first group is those luuk kreung's which bread with full-Thais. Their offspring will come out 75 %Thai, and 25 % other. Then there are the luuk kruengs, mostly overseas, who bread with the natives there (whether Caucasian, Indian, Mid-eastern, African, etc. etc.) whose offspring will be opposite of group one: 25 % Thai, 75% other...

Together, these two groups are forming an even newer generation of genetic breeds distinguishable from the classical luuk kreung 50-50 mixes. The Thais distinguish these 75-25 breeds too. In Thai, we call them Luuk Siaw (Siaw with a falling tone) ลูกเสี้ยว.

I just had my first Luuk Siaw last Tuesday. I must say that reproduction is such an amazing expierence. To see, touch, and hold your own offspring is comparable to no other feelings I've felt previously.

Aside from my own son, I have 2 luuk siaw neices, and 5 luuk siaw nephews from my brother and sisters. Only one of them (niece) fits into the 75% Thai 25% Caucasian category. Her father (my brother) was born and raised here in Thailand, While my two sisters who have three kids each were born and raised in the states and bread their offspring there to get the 25% Thai 75% Caucasian luuk siaws.

Genetics and Reproduction absolutely amaze me. It never seems to be consistent. While my nephews in the USA who had Caucasian father turned out where there Caucasian genes are dominate without question...However my nieces (one here, one there) are peculiar cases. The 75 Thai / 25 Caucasian one here seems to be taken more to the Caucasian genes/features, while the other niece in USA who is 25 % Thai 75% Caucasian took to her Thai genes more.

All kinds of questions are raised. What determines the way the reproductive genes and cells will act/react together. Is it all dependent on the chemistry and state of the cells at conception, or is it later on in the process, a gradual development relevant to the atmosphere of the embryo/fetus and various other factors?

Anyone else here with luuk kreungs or luuk siaws, please share with me your observations, thoughts, and curiosities.

Thanks a bunch!

[Patex]

Didn't get your point, greenie...

Why you can't just tell us your wife gave birth to a healthy son and that you are happy? Why all this race- crap?? Must be something from your fathers german anchestors... End your ego-trip and be a responsible, loving father! Best wishes,

Patex

[Maejo Man]

For those of you who are confused............

Yes we are, won't a simple "congratulations" suffice?

[greenwanderer108]

Didn't get your point, greenie...

Why you can't just tell us your wife gave birth to a healthy son and that you are happy? Why all this race- crap?? Must be something from your fathers german anchestors... End your ego-trip and be a responsible, loving father! Best wishes,

Patex

This post was about genetics and was seeking comments and observations for other parents of mixed children, not a ploy to get congradulations...thanks anyway.

So anyway...please keep off-topic witty personal comments out of this...I'd hate for this to turn into some pointless off topic flame war...

In other words, if you don't understand or can't relate to the topic, then don't comment..Simple

Thanks..

Edited April 15, 2006 by greenwanderer108

[chippie]

bred- past tense of breed, you eat bread.

my GF is thai, Lao mother- Thai father, black as your hat. She is also dark but her two sisters are whiter than me.

Don't get your point, half of the world is now mixed race.

[astral]

Mixed blood can produce some very beautiful children,

and the mixture of cultures hopefully produces more tolerant members of

society.

[bina]

same as in animals:

there is phenotype and genotype; one defines the probability of what u are and one defines what u actually have: i.e. green eyes, blond hair, recessive/dominant, allelles for pigmentation, etc.... why dont u just google ethnic/genetics and avoid the nazi type sites.....

and the word is breed not bread

and the only concerns with mixed breed children are genetic disorders that are linked with ethnic genetics so that your kids may be carriers of several genetic disorders and if married to similar, the disease may show:

sickle cell among blacks and asians

tay sachs among ashkenazi jews

lots of others so that if u intermarry, the child can be carrier and if married to someone else with the genetic mix, genetic counselling is advisable...just like breeding dogs or horses or goats....

also blood types since asian blood types are different from western types (rh negative, o, a etc...)...

there was a good thread once about blood types with a really good link about that... search in the health section about a year ago...

mixing can only be good; here in israel u can see lots of genetic problems due to intermarriage among small ethnic groups (deafness in yemenite people; deafness among beduin tribes, there's a whole family of arabs in one village that have a genetic tendency towards hermaphroditism; etc)...

[robitusson]

Half-children? Mixed race? Genetics? What? Does that make other Thais pure-breds? Luuk krungs mongrels?

[robitusson]

and the word is breed not bread

No it's not, he's trying to say bred, past tense of breed. If you're going to correct someones English, do it properly.

Edited April 15, 2006 by robitusson

[bina]

rob its 8:00 in the a.m. and breeding for genetic qualities is what he is talking about... so my english is off a bit...

since i work with animals and breeding and genetic types .... yes: he bred with her but with humans breeding is not really an acceptable usage.... since we would do like i do with goats and breed for long hair or blue eyes or healthy kids and not get married for love and get stuck with asthmatic and allergic kids etc....

[greenwanderer108]

same as in animals:

there is phenotype and genotype; one defines the probability of what u are and one defines what u actually have: i.e. green eyes, blond hair, recessive/dominant, allelles for pigmentation, etc.... why dont u just google ethnic/genetics and avoid the nazi type sites.....

...

there was a good thread once about blood types with a really good link about that... search in the health section about a year ago...

mixing can only be good; here in israel u can see lots of genetic problems due to intermarriage among small ethnic groups (deafness in yemenite people; deafness among beduin tribes, there's a whole family of arabs in one village that have a genetic tendency towards hermaphroditism; etc)...

Yea, I studied genetics for a year in highschool, but most of the terminology seems to have faded. That's right, phonemes, phenotypes, genomes, RNA, probabilities, strands... uhh....no need for the google searches, it'll come back once you refresh me..

I'm not sure I agree with the 'professional opinions' and all the hype about genetic diseases. In the past, supposed doctors and scientists manipulated the public with twisted myths related to genetic disorders. i.e. gay gene, stupid gene, etc. etc.

Is there any objective evidence that any disease is directly related to the genome of any ethnic group? I think we fail to take into other environmental, regional, and climatic factors, for starters. Just because a certain disease was predominate in an already biased sample group, does not mean that that ethnic group on a whole has some genetic defect. Such logic is flawed.

It's relevant to perspective to denote any phenomena as bad or defect too. Do hermaphrodites have shorter complicated lives than standard sapiens? If a recall right, ancient Egypt and Greek cultures held the hermaphrodite as a sacred transcended being…

[autonomous_unit]

If you're really interested in the science side of this, you probably want to get a few books on biology covering cell division, sexual reproduction, etc. Developmental physiology and microbiology is an entirely separate topic to understand how much variation we can have from the chemical environment, as opposed to the genetic sources.

The basic issue is that your genes are not "Thai" or "Caucasian". Your genes are a big set of chromosome pairs which in turn are long strings of genes and filler material which are in turn long strings of amino acids. What you consider "Thai" or "Caucasian" is really a particular statistical blend of many such genes which happen to contribute to outwardly distinguishable characteristics. These are a tiny fraction of the total genes... I am terrible with numbers but all humans share something on the order of 99.9% of their genes... the ones that makes us "human" rather than a particular color or shape of human.

When your cells split to create sperm or egg, only half of each pair of chromosomes goes to a particular sperm or egg, resulting in reproductive cells which carry only half of a normal human genetic makeup. (One parent cell splits into two with different chromosomes, in what seems to be a pretty random process.) The moment of fertilization injects the sperm into the egg and allows the chromosomes to recombine into a new full set of pairs. So, right off the bat, the kids get a random selection of you and your mate's makeups, some of which may effect the "dominant" characteristics you show and some of which may effect the "recessive" characteristics you carry from your parents but do not show. Many other characteristics are a blend rather than a stark all-or-nothing exhibition.

The idea of 1/2 this, or 1/4 that, is just a statistical probability, based on the fact that the genes get randomly split into one of the two sperm or egg cells from each parent cell. It makes more sense for very specific qualities that are basically "on" or "off", and can describe the chances that one of your offspring has a characteristic or not. This distribution of characteristics in offspring was first observed long ago with the first systematic experiments in plant breeding for specific traits.

By the way, a chimera is really a body made up of parts from different animals. What scientists call a human chimera is actually a kind of fused fraternal twin. Like a "siamese twin" that forms into only one individual instead of two who are connected. These people might have the left arm of one twin and the rest of the body from another, or upper and lower halves etc.... you might not notice unless doing genetic analysis of cell samples from different body parts, or you might notice a visible "seam" in their skin if the skin is split between the two fraternal sources. I suppose with luuk kreung this effect could be more striking or even disabling, if the two sections of body are a bad match.

[greenwanderer108]

The basic issue is that your genes are not "Thai" or "Caucasian". Your genes are a big set of chromosome pairs which in turn are long strings of genes and filler material which are in turn long strings of amino acids. What you consider "Thai" or "Caucasian" is really a particular statistical blend of many such genes which happen to contribute to outwardly distinguishable characteristics. These are a tiny fraction of the total genes... I am terrible with numbers but all humans share something on the order of 99.9% of their genes... the ones that makes us "human" rather than a particular color or shape of human.

...

By the way, a chimera is really a body made up of parts from different animals. What scientists call a human chimera is actually a kind of fused fraternal twin. Like a "siamese twin" that forms into only one individual instead of two who are connected. These people might have the left arm of one twin and the rest of the body from another, or upper and lower halves etc.... you might not notice unless doing genetic analysis of cell samples from different body parts, or you might notice a visible "seam" in their skin if the skin is split between the two fraternal sources. I suppose with luuk kreung this effect could be more striking or even disabling, if the two sections of body are a bad match.

I knew it would start coming back once you all threw it at me...So what was it... the egg and sperm each have 23 Chromosones or was it 23 pairs to make 46??? I can't remember, how are these related to XX and XY...? I know that Y is masculine factor, it's just hard to grasp the fact that these X and Y would still have a makeup of 99.9 percent the same.

Which brings up another question about the dominate and recessive traits. How many generations can the recessive traits stay in the gene pool? It's strange how randomly some kids will be born with the mystery traits from an old generation (i.e. blue eyes, blande hair, etc.)

BTW, speaking of human chimera's, how do specialists classify/discern such instances? To the extent of the entire person being half/half with combined two of each organs into one as well...I assume it's not the simple differences like one arm longer than the other, etc..

Cheers for the great discussion!

Edited April 15, 2006 by greenwanderer108

[greenwanderer108]

BTW A-Unit and Bina,

what's the latest news of the gene splicing experiements to manually create Chimeras? I remember reading about something several months ago. I think it was two different species of animals but can't remember if they mentioned any human experiments...though I'm sure such experiments would be classified

Breeding is one thing, but cross breeding via gene splicing is brilliant. How do they get around the species-species biology laws?

If you got any news/updates links, please post them.

[GuestHouse]

The problem with all this 'Racial Identification' is that often ignores racial mixes. Very few people are purely the race they thing they are. So you might believe grandma was Irish, but she may not have been.

Then when you add race, into normal family genetics you run up against the errors that occur in understanding due to the fact that the world over significant numbers of children are not the natural child of the father raising them - (that excludes where the father is aware of the fact).

So what's left is a soup over which nobody has any control.

[astral]

and the word is breed not bread

No it's not, he's trying to say bred, past tense of breed. If you're going to correct someones English, do it properly.

Do you mean "do it correctly"??

[Johpa]

and the only concerns with mixed breed children are genetic disorders that are linked with ethnic genetics so that your kids may be carriers of several genetic disorders and if married to similar, the disease may show:

sickle cell among blacks and asians

tay sachs among ashkenazi jews

lots of others so that if u intermarry, the child can be carrier and if married to someone else with the genetic mix, genetic counselling is advisable...just like breeding dogs or horses or goats....

also blood types since asian blood types are different from western types (rh negative, o, a etc...)...

In Southeast Asia your primary genetic concern is Thalassemia which occurs as it does throughout Europe and Asia (sickle cell in Africa) wherever there is warm temps, mosquitos, and of course malaria. There is a decent chance a Southeast Asian will carry the gene for α-Thalassemia or β-Thalassemia. It will show itself to the pediatrician of your child with a slightly irregular iron reading in the blood work. Fortunately, being a carrier has absolutely no ill effect upon the person other than perhaps eliminating them from winning a marathon race in Denver. On the plus side, and the raison d'être for the existence of all Thalassemias, is that it provides protection from malaria, saving the lives of more people then it kills where malaria occurs.

[bina]

right johpa, thats the genetic thingy i was thinking of: the thelasemia (sp.) thing... but there are others, just dont remember.... i think mayo clinic or somewhere has a sight with genetic defect diseases by ethnic group or something... (they also have orphan diseases groups... those rare and wierd disorders that happen one in a million...)

[backflip]

greenwanderer108,

Referring to a person with mixed nationalities as a "mut" is one of most racist things I've read in these forums. You should be ashamed of yourself - you aren't, and that's a problem. Why don't you wander off?

[skylar]

Ethnicity and nationality are two different things to a lot of people, and are the same thing to a lot of people. However, greenwanderer himself is luk kreung.

Apparently in the States, people make a great effort to find out their geneological history and are quite proud of their mixed backgrounds. From my experience in England, nobody mentions their cultural heritage if they can get away with it.

[BKK Traveler]

greenwanderer108,

Referring to a person with mixed nationalities as a "mut" is one of most racist things I've read in these forums. You should be ashamed of yourself - you aren't, and that's a problem. Why don't you wander off?

I totally agree with you. Greenwanderer posts nothing but controversial posts just to get a response. In other words a troll. This post proves it more than any others of his I've seen. If I was a moderator, I'd ban him for referring to people as "muts". There's absolutely no excuse for that and a disgrace to this forum to allow such language. I for one will not be responding to this troll anymore.

[Goldenbead]

greenwanderer108,

Referring to a person with mixed nationalities as a "mut" is one of most racist things I've read in these forums. You should be ashamed of yourself - you aren't, and that's a problem. Why don't you wander off?

I totally agree with you. Greenwanderer posts nothing but controversial posts just to get a response. In other words a troll. This post proves it more than any others of his I've seen. If I was a moderator, I'd ban him for referring to people as "muts". There's absolutely no excuse for that and a disgrace to this forum to allow such language. I for one will not be responding to this troll anymore.

Really guys. I think you are both overreacting.

I myself come from a very mixed background and I am not offended. My children are all mixed and they are beautiful, even if I do say so myself.

[BKK Traveler]

greenwanderer108,

Referring to a person with mixed nationalities as a "mut" is one of most racist things I've read in these forums. You should be ashamed of yourself - you aren't, and that's a problem. Why don't you wander off?

I totally agree with you. Greenwanderer posts nothing but controversial posts just to get a response. In other words a troll. This post proves it more than any others of his I've seen. If I was a moderator, I'd ban him for referring to people as "muts". There's absolutely no excuse for that and a disgrace to this forum to allow such language. I for one will not be responding to this troll anymore.

Really guys. I think you are both overreacting.

I myself come from a very mixed background and I am not offended. My children are all mixed and they are beautiful, even if I do say so myself.

I assume the OP was using the word "mutt" but got the spelling wrong. Do you know what the definition of a mutt is?

"an inferior dog or one of mixed breed"

Calling anyone that sort of a name on this forum I think is totally uncalled for. Unless I completely misunderstood and the word "mut" is some Thai word, I don't see how you could not be offended if you took the meaning the same as me. Given my above definition, can you honestly say that you are not offended if someone called your children "inferior dogs"?

[Nawtilus]

But what do you expect from a mutt and an american one at that...or was it german.

[wolf5370]

Do you know what the definition of a mutt is?

"an inferior dog or one of mixed breed"

Actually my dictionary makes an even worse definition:

mutt Pronunciation (mt)

n. Informal

1. A mongrel dog.

2. A stupid person; a dolt.

Thopugh I think GreenWanderer was trying to be humurous rather than insulting - with race issues the line can be razor blade thin and easy to cross.

[greenwanderer108]

Backflip and Bkk traveller,

A mutt is only inferior by perspective. So what, if I call my son a mutt. The irony is he was born the year of the dog...Should I refrain from referring myself as a pig or others a horse, rabbit, dragons, etc. etc.??...

You may be insecure about your own ethnic, national backgrounds, but obviously you're way off track about what this discussion is about.

Give me a break. Find something better to do than trying to ruin legit discussions by turning them into personal flame wars. You got something against me? PM me, and I'll be happy to flame, argue, gripe head to head, or whatever...but if you've got nothing respectable or relevant to contribute, stay off this thread please!

[seonai]

I think everyone has the right to reply here Greenie !!!! You can't tell people to stay away cos you are not a MOD

And if you called my son a Mut or a Mutt I would be highly unimpressed.

It wasn't clear from your titile that this was going to be a scientific debate. I opened it as I have a mixed race child. As did many others who have replyed.

[samran]

But I am a Mod...and a Luuk Krung.

Lets leave it at this shall we. If greeny feels as if he wants to refer to himself and his new child as a mut, then that is for him. Having said that, I think the meant in jest, albeit badly!

And and the risk of being too PC, lest we continue to offend anyone, lets keep this discussion along the straight and narrow avoid any language which may appear disparaging to others.

[greenwanderer108]

I think everyone has the right to reply here Greenie !!!! You can't tell people to stay away cos you are not a MOD

And if you called my son a Mut or a Mutt I would be highly unimpressed.

It wasn't clear from your titile that this was going to be a scientific debate. I opened it as I have a mixed race child. As did many others who have replyed.

My aim was to get the oppinions, observations, and thoughts of other parents of mixed children...but not about their personal grudges, biases, or whatever about me...

So, how about your mixed race child? Who did she/he take more after, physically? The tendancy (or perhaps a myth) is the boys will take more from their mom, and girls of their dad. It's difficult to say anything about my mutt...uh I mean mixed son. as he's only five days old. And even in those few days, his face has changed much..

He's got my ears, eyes, hair, and body hair thus far. The nose is half his mom's half mine, and mouth and chin, his mom's. I won't be surprised when he changes form altogether after months, years, etc...

So anyhow, one of the thoughts I was thinking when I started the thread was having to do with the dominate/recessive traits. Except for dark eyes, I've observed that the farang traits seem to be more predominate with Luuk kruengs and Luuk Siaws and was curious if others have noticed the same...??

For example, most luuk kreungs/luuk siaws I've met/seen could easily pass for farang, but not so easily as an Asian...

What's your thoughts (not about me...about the topic)

Korp khun krup

[jing jing]

So, how about your mixed race child? Who did she/he take more after, physically? The tendancy (or perhaps a myth) is the boys will take more from their mom, and girls of their dad. It's difficult to say anything about my mutt...uh I mean mixed son. as he's only five days old. And even in those few days, his face has changed much..

He's got my ears, eyes, hair, and body hair thus far. The nose is half his mom's half mine, and mouth and chin, his mom's. I won't be surprised when he changes form altogether after months, years, etc...

So anyhow, one of the thoughts I was thinking when I started the thread was having to do with the dominate/recessive traits. Except for dark eyes, I've observed that the farang traits seem to be more predominate with Luuk kruengs and Luuk Siaws and was curious if others have noticed the same...??

For example, most luuk kreungs/luuk siaws I've met/seen could easily pass for farang, but not so easily as an Asian...

What's your thoughts (not about me...about the topic)

Korp khun krup

Ya, I'm farang - all 4 grandparents were Russian - wife is Thai but kinda light skinned, our son looks much more farang than Thai. He's got really white skin and huge eyes. His appearance did change a lot from the first week or so, before his eyes opened up. Dark hair and eyes, but I've got those too.

The interesting thing is that even though his mom and I are both quite thin, he's a real chunky boy... not fat at all, just kinda beefy and square. He's not quite 6 months old yet so there's plenty of time for him to thin out, but for the time being he's in the top 75 percentile of weight for his age, and the same goes for his height.

BTW congratulations on your first kid!! Quite an experience...