15,000=479.69 USD from my checking account....how did I do?

[Thighlander]

I'm up here in Phayao, and there is one Aeon machine. It was broken on Sunday. I called on Monday, and they said it would be fixed Tuesday. Needs parts, so it may be broken for a week. Funds are a little low in my BKK bank account, but there was enough to hold me over, but still had to pay 30 THB for out of province transaction, as my account is in CNX. I really didn't want to end my streak of never, ever paying the 150 THB fee, so I tried something I had read here; counter debit withdraw. I went into BKK Bank, told them what I wanted to do. She looked at my card and said "cannot, it is only debit." I said they were doing it in CNX. She went to her little machine, then said, there was no chip in it, cannot. I said punch it in manually. She was able to swipe it. Of course, the tape ran out in the transaction, so that was a 10 minute delay, but then it worked. Came back and checked my account: 479.67 usd for 15000 THB. www.xe.com is showing 31.78 right now, but they may be off-shore, etc....So I got 31.2715 per Dollar. Would it have been the same out of Aeon, or was it computed differently? Transaction done on Wednesday 21 August in the afternoon. Or should I call Suze Ormond? That would be 31.97 usd per 1000 THB. I've previously got no better than 32.14 USD per 1000 THB, in my three months here, but I know the THB has dropped a lot in the last few days. Any comments?

[Naam]

Any comments?

call Suze.

[Pib]

And when you call Suze be sure to tell her if you were using a Visa or MasterCard and if your card-issuing bank applies a foreign transaction fee of X% and/or flat fee with the card usage. Since Visa and MasterCard have different time of day start times for their daily exchange rate, you will also need to tell her the time to ensure she pulls up the correct date due to the date/time differential between Thailand and the US. Then she can tell you how you faired between the rate you got and the no-fee Visa/MasterCard exchange rate.

[JimGant]

So I got 31.2715 per Dollar. Would it have been the same out of Aeon, or was it computed differently? Transaction done on Wednesday 21 August in the afternoon.

For a completely fee free Visa card, that doesn't pass on any network fee, you would have received the Visa rate for 21 Aug of 31.37353 baht per USD. For a MasterCard, with the same fee criteria, you would have gotten their 20 August rate of 31.3762 baht per dollar. This FX is what an Aeon ATM transaction would have looked like -- again, if no bank or network fees

Crunching the numbers doesn't show anything obvious about any fees your card might have. However, crunching the Visa and MC rates into the $479.67 you paid for 15000 baht, with Visa you would have paid for 15,048.94 baht -- and with MC, you would have paid for 15050.22 baht. Possibly, then, you have MasterCard -- and the bank charged you (a non regular at this bank branch) a 50 baht fee for the overcounter transaction. Or, if you have Visa, a 50 baht counter fee is also possible, it you get liberal with rounding errors.

Anyhow, it wouldn't surprise me if a counterfee was charged in this scenario -- although this is the first I've heard of one.... Maybe being a stranger at this bank -- and particularly if it's a MC, as they're sticking it to the banks with their reimbursement interchange fees (this is why banks are charging 180 baht, vice 150 baht for Visa, for MC ATM transactions).

Or, your issuing bank could also have some not-very-apparent fees going on. What is your card logo and bank?

[Naam]

And when you call Suze be sure to tell her if you were using a Visa or MasterCard and if your card-issuing bank applies a foreign transaction fee of X% and/or flat fee with the card usage. Since Visa and MasterCard have different time of day start times for their daily exchange rate, you will also need to tell her the time to ensure she pulls up the correct date due to the date/time differential between Thailand and the US. Then she can tell you how you faired between the rate you got and the no-fee Visa/MasterCard exchange rate.

but before Suze solves the mystery she will interrogate him (3rd grade) whether he has a mortgage. and if he has she will deliver a sermon that he should pay down first his mortgage instead of travelling to Thailand and use ATM cash for obscure and/or immoral purposes.

[sustento]

Just go and buy some Som Tham...

[stoli]

You did well. And the rates have not been dropping this week. The U.S. dollar has gotten much stronger against the baht this week. That is good news.

[vagabond48]

I also withdrew 15K yesterday at Aeon using my Fid visa DC and paid $478.11 at the rate that Jim Grant quoted, 31.37353

[yoshiwara]

Any comments?

call Suze.

Denied.

[yoshiwara]

And when you call Suze be sure to tell her if you were using a Visa or MasterCard and if your card-issuing bank applies a foreign transaction fee of X% and/or flat fee with the card usage. Since Visa and MasterCard have different time of day start times for their daily exchange rate, you will also need to tell her the time to ensure she pulls up the correct date due to the date/time differential between Thailand and the US. Then she can tell you how you faired between the rate you got and the no-fee Visa/MasterCard exchange rate.

but before Suze solves the mystery she will interrogate him (3rd grade) whether he has a mortgage. and if he has she will deliver a sermon that he should pay down first his mortgage instead of travelling to Thailand and use ATM cash for obscure and/or immoral purposes.

or more likely check into the Hard Rock Hotel with her girlfriend because Thailand's Hot! Hot! Hot!

[Pib]

One thing I've notice about Visa and MasterCard exchange rates in comparison to the TT Buying Rate for wire transfers, the cards rates usually lag by at least one day...usually more...when FX rates are changing much more than normal. Like over the last few business days the baht has been depreciating quite a bit and the cards rates are really lagging behind (significantly lower) than the TT Buying Rate....usually the cards rates are very close to the TT Buying Rate offered by Thai banks.

Like right now, the Bangkok Bank TT Buying Rate is 31.99 but the Visa rate is 31.37 and the MC rate 31.51. Since I have a couple of Visa debit cards I have noticed Visa seems to play it safe in times of rapid FX changes....hopefully if the baht exchange rate stabilizes then Visa and MasterCard will then raise their rates up to very close to the TT Buying Rate where MC is usually a little less and Visa a little more.

When I decide I need to recharge my Thai bank account by using my no foreign transaction fee Visa debit cards to pull around Bt60K I always check the Visa exchange rate page first especially if there has been some healthy FX market variations going on and then depending on which way the baht/USD FX rate is going (up or down) make the decision whether to get the money today before the card rate goes down, or wait or day or two in the card rate goes up. Like I said, I only do this when there is healthy FX variations going on like over the last few days and knowing from past experience how the card rates seem to lag.

[Naam]

but before Suze solves the mystery she will interrogate him (3rd grade) whether he has a mortgage. and if he has she will deliver a sermon that he should pay down first his mortgage instead of travelling to Thailand and use ATM cash for obscure and/or immoral purposes.

or more likely check into the Hard Rock Hotel with her girlfriend because Thailand's Hot! Hot! Hot!

looking at Kathy Travis i have a feeling that Suze might prefer to come to Thailand alone.

[Pib]

One thing I've notice about Visa and MasterCard exchange rates in comparison to the TT Buying Rate for wire transfers, the cards rates usually lag by at least one day...usually more...when FX rates are changing much more than normal. Like over the last few business days the baht has been depreciating quite a bit and the cards rates are really lagging behind (significantly lower) than the TT Buying Rate....usually the cards rates are very close to the TT Buying Rate offered by Thai banks.

Like right now, the Bangkok Bank TT Buying Rate is 31.99 but the Visa rate is 31.37 and the MC rate 31.51. Since I have a couple of Visa debit cards I have noticed Visa seems to play it safe in times of rapid FX changes....hopefully if the baht exchange rate stabilizes then Visa and MasterCard will then raise their rates up to very close to the TT Buying Rate where MC is usually a little less and Visa a little more.

When I decide I need to recharge my Thai bank account by using my no foreign transaction fee Visa debit cards to pull around Bt60K I always check the Visa exchange rate page first especially if there has been some healthy FX market variations going on and then depending on which way the baht/USD FX rate is going (up or down) make the decision whether to get the money today before the card rate goes down, or wait or day or two in the card rate goes up. Like I said, I only do this when there is healthy FX variations going on like over the last few days and knowing from past experience how the card rates seem to lag.

Didn't get to finish one other bit of info before having to post above and walk the dogs before the rain arrived....and the rain has now arrived here in western Bangkok. And that bit of info is you have probably noticed on the bottom of the Visa Exchange rate page they tell you to click that link if your Visa card is issued by a European bank because a different rate will apply. On occasions I've compared the USA Visa rate (I guess the rate that applies to all Visa card unless issued by a European bank) to the European Visa rate and they have always been real close....usually within 0.1 baht.

But I've notice this week since the baht has been depreciating quite a bit on the FX markets the Visa European rate has been significantly better than the Visa USA rate. Like at this millisecond in time....22 Aug, 4:30pm Thailand time the Visa USA rate is 31.37/USD and the Visa European rate is 31.72/USD in comparison to the Bangkok Bank TT Buying Rate of 31.92/USD (dropped a little from the earlier 31.99).

Even the Visa European rate is lagging but not as big of a lag as a USA bank issued Visa card rate.

[Thighlander]

It is a capitalone360 Mastercard, debit card, USA. I think there must have been a 50 THB fee in there, but it wasn't itemized on my slip. The 479 is what showed up on my computer 15 minutes later, when I checked it. I was getting a queasy feeling about a possible cash advance cancer, even though it is debit only. Also, when I put 8K into my BKK account, I only paid a flat out of province fee of 20 THB, instead of 28 they would have charged me at the counter.....an additional .1%. So you would save 100 THB if you were putting in 100,000 out of Province.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Thighlander

[Pib]

I think in another thread/post talking about Cap360 debit cards it appeared that although CapOne did not charge a foreign transaction fee they do now allow any currency conversion fee MasterCard may charge to pass through and it appeared they were allowing a 0.2% MC fee to pass through to the customer. From my past browsing/surfing it appears MasterCard can pass along anywhere from a 0.2% to 1% currency conversion fee and Visa can pass along a 0.15% to 1% currency conversion fee "if your card issuing bank don't absorb that fee." I know whenever I use my Schwab and St Farm Visa debit cards the charge hitting my bank accounts match the Visa rate to the 2d or 3rd decimal point...so those two banks definitely absorb all fees Visa may pass along.

[Pib]

One thing I've notice about Visa and MasterCard exchange rates in comparison to the TT Buying Rate for wire transfers, the cards rates usually lag by at least one day...usually more...when FX rates are changing much more than normal. Like over the last few business days the baht has been depreciating quite a bit and the cards rates are really lagging behind (significantly lower) than the TT Buying Rate....usually the cards rates are very close to the TT Buying Rate offered by Thai banks.

Like right now, the Bangkok Bank TT Buying Rate is 31.99 but the Visa rate is 31.37 and the MC rate 31.51. Since I have a couple of Visa debit cards I have noticed Visa seems to play it safe in times of rapid FX changes....hopefully if the baht exchange rate stabilizes then Visa and MasterCard will then raise their rates up to very close to the TT Buying Rate where MC is usually a little less and Visa a little more.

When I decide I need to recharge my Thai bank account by using my no foreign transaction fee Visa debit cards to pull around Bt60K I always check the Visa exchange rate page first especially if there has been some healthy FX market variations going on and then depending on which way the baht/USD FX rate is going (up or down) make the decision whether to get the money today before the card rate goes down, or wait or day or two in the card rate goes up. Like I said, I only do this when there is healthy FX variations going on like over the last few days and knowing from past experience how the card rates seem to lag.

Didn't get to finish one other bit of info before having to post above and walk the dogs before the rain arrived....and the rain has now arrived here in western Bangkok. And that bit of info is you have probably noticed on the bottom of the Visa Exchange rate page they tell you to click that link if your Visa card is issued by a European bank because a different rate will apply. On occasions I've compared the USA Visa rate (I guess the rate that applies to all Visa card unless issued by a European bank) to the European Visa rate and they have always been real close....usually within 0.1 baht.

But I've notice this week since the baht has been depreciating quite a bit on the FX markets the Visa European rate has been significantly better than the Visa USA rate. Like at this millisecond in time....22 Aug, 4:30pm Thailand time the Visa USA rate is 31.37/USD and the Visa European rate is 31.72/USD in comparison to the Bangkok Bank TT Buying Rate of 31.92/USD (dropped a little from the earlier 31.99).

Even the Visa European rate is lagging but not as big of a lag as a USA bank issued Visa card rate.

Ok, looked at the Visa USA, Visa European, MasterCard, and Bangkok Bank TT Buying Rates a few minutes ago. The Visa USA rate has now caught up (remember I talked the lagging effect when the FX market is varying greatly) to being very close to the Thai bank TT Buying Rate used for wire transfers. And the Visa European rate for European bank issued Visa cards is still significantly better than the Visa USA rate used for most Visa cards worldwide. Anyway, here the reflected rates at 1pm today/Friday/1pm.

Visa USA: 31.86/USD (yesterday it was on 31.37...approx. 1% lower which is a big change)

Visa European: 32.04/USD

MasterCard: 31.84/USD

Bk Bkk TT Buying Rate: 31.84/USD

So, since the Visa exchange rate has now caught up...and actually beating the TT Buying Rate a little which is common---Visa USA had that couple days lagging effect I've seen often when the FX market is varying much more than normal. I will now go visit my friendly AEON ATM to get some baht to recharge my Thai bank account.

[Paul888]

You needed money, you got money - problem solved. Why worry about whether you could have got a baht or two more from a broken AEON machine? It is not as if you can do anything about it.

[Pib]

You needed money, you got money - problem solved. Why worry about whether you could have got a baht or two more from a broken AEON machine? It is not as if you can do anything about it.

I don't worry about a baht or two...but Bt150 per withdrawal I do.

[Thighlander]

Who said I was worried. I saved 100 THB. That's a great dinner in Thailand. Are you a negative net-worth I-phone owner?

[JimGant]

I think in another thread/post talking about Cap360 debit cards it appeared that although CapOne did not charge a foreign transaction fee they do now allow any currency conversion fee MasterCard may charge to pass through and it appeared they were allowing a 0.2% MC fee to pass through to the customer.

Thighlander, do you have any recent Aeon ATM transactions with your Cap 360 card? If so, could you pass on the dates and times, and baht/dollar figures. I'm curious about how much, if any, of MC's foreign transaction fee is being passed on. Thanks.

[Thighlander]

Wednesday 28 August, Aeon Chiang Rai (beautiful shopping mall!). Withdrew 1000 THB and my account was charged 31.44 USD. It is MC Debit with Allpoint logo.

[Pib]

Wednesday 28 August, Aeon Chiang Rai (beautiful shopping mall!). Withdrew 1000 THB and my account was charged 31.44 USD. It is MC Debit with Allpoint logo.

As mentioned in post #15 it appears the CapOne MC card is now passing along a 0.2% currency conversion fee, which is on the low end of the 0.2 to 1% currency conversion fee MasterCard can apply based on something I read somewhere on the web...I think it was at some MasterCard webpage. Probably depends on the contract MC has with the card-issuing bank as to what the exact currency conversion fee will be. With CapOne being one of the largest, or is it the largest, card issurer in the U.S. it don't surprise me they could get the lowest fee/best deal from MC....but I'm guessing.

With the withdrawal occurring on 28 Aug/Wed in Thailand, the U.S. 27 Aug/Tue MasterCard rate of 31.8681 would have been in effect.

1000 baht divided by 31.44USD gives us a 31.8066 baht/USD rate which is 0.2% lower than the full 31.8681 MC Rate for that day.

Appears CapOne is no longer absorbing all of the currency conversion fee which is probably in the 0.2 to 1% ballpark and now passing it along to the customer....but at least CapOne is not adding on any additional foreign transaction fee to milk the customer.

[Pib]

Jim,

I can tell you that the CapOne MC "credit card" I have don't pass around any currency conversion fee like the small 0.2% fee Thighlander's CapOne MC "debit" card is apparently passing along if my math is right.

Example: on 3 Sep I did a charge transaction for Bt677 here in Thailand and about 30 seconds later I got the CapOne email saying I had just done a transaction for $21.14 which equates to a 32.02 rate which don't match the MC rate for 2, 3, 4 or 5 Sep. The MC rate that was in effect at the time of the transaction was 31.8845. Seems the rate "initially" used for the credit card transaction is just something close to the MC official rate of the day...and the final rate won't be applied until the transaction "posts" since unlike a debit card transaction which posts immediately credit card transactions take another day or two (or longer) to post (preaching to the choir I know). And when the posting occurs you get the rate for that posting date. From looking at my CapOne account the transaction posted on 3 Sep for $21.30 which equates to a 31.78 rate which matches the official 3 Sep MC rate of 31.7819.

Just FYI.

[JimGant]

Thanks for the figures, TLander. As Pib's calculations show, Cap360 is not a pure fee free card, but costs .2% (at least for ATM -- don't know what, if any, charge there would be for a swipe and sign POS transaction).

Still not sure what transpired with your counter transaction, as the numbers don't point to a flat .2% cost. Maybe no .2% -- but only the banks 50 baht counter fee......(?). Dunno.

Edited September 6, 2013 by JimGant

[Nowisee]

Today I spoke with a knowledgeable soundy lady with CapitalOne360.
She told me that CapOne360 will reimburse the MC fee (usually 1%) when using as POS before I ever see the charge. "We eat it on the back end." she said.

She was not clear about ATM fee, but said 'they' do not charge anything. So, I was assuming using AEON machine would be fine.

I have never used my CapOne360 MC debit card because when I first left the US they had heavy fees. She swore those fees have been removed and are reimbursed... now I have to call her back and verify.

Anyway, I continue to use my TDAmeritrade ATM card at AEON. Which is a Visa.

My transaction on 6/13/2013 was a withdrawal for 10,000 baht. My bank statement showed a debit on 6/13/2013 of $323.91.

According to VISA's exchange rate of 1 baht = .032391 for 6/13.

10,000/323.91 = 30.8727 Did I do this right?

I looked at the MC conversion site for 6/13 it was 30.771 and on 6/12 (thinking that I made the transaction while it was 6/12 in the US) it was 30.818.

I don't understand when or where the exchange is determine.

For example, today I looked on MC site and it's 32.1461 and on x-rates.com it's 32.2399. Someone is making away with .09 of a baht. If they do that 100 times it's 9 baht.

One thing I know for sure, this shit gives me a <deleted> headache 5555.

I'm not sure I give a shit if I'm getting hosed for a $1 or $2 on a 40,000 baht withdrawal. I did not like Bangkok bank hosing me for $5 per ATM transaction before I read on here about AEON. I'd like BoB to stick the $35 they jacked me for right up their ass.

There, I feel much better.

[Pib]

Thanks for the figures, TLander. As Pib's calculations show, Cap360 is not a pure fee free card, but costs .2% (at least for ATM -- don't know what, if any, charge there would be for a swipe and sign POS transaction).

Still not sure what transpired with your counter transaction, as the numbers don't point to a flat .2% cost. Maybe no .2% -- but only the banks 50 baht counter fee......(?). Dunno.

On the CapOne website regarding their debit card they now say:

Foreign Transaction. If you use your Card for a foreign transaction (any transaction made in a foreign currency or that MasterCard® classifies as a cross-border transaction), we won't charge you anything. However, MasterCard may apply a charge for converting the purchase to U.S. Dollars. Please remember to notify us if you are travelling overseas.

Now the way I read above they are basically saying they don't add on any foreign transaction fee but they do allow any MC currency conversion fee to pass through to you (i.e., they don't absorb it).

Before CapOne bought ING the website use to have disclosures which were much simpler and clearer in my opinion and it use to say "no foreign transaction fee" with no fine print like they have now. And if I remember right in previous TV posts---that is, previous to the new CapOne 360 debit cards resulting from CapOne buying ING--that those transactions did calculate out to be totally no fee....not even that 0.2% fee was being passed through to the customer.

[Pib]

Anyway, I continue to use my TDAmeritrade ATM card at AEON. Which is a Visa.

My transaction on 6/13/2013 was a withdrawal for 10,000 baht. My bank statement showed a debit on 6/13/2013 of $323.91.

According to VISA's exchange rate of 1 baht = .032391 for 6/13.

10,000/323.91 = 30.8727 Did I do this right?

I looked at the MC conversion site for 6/13 it was 30.771 and on 6/12 (thinking that I made the transaction while it was 6/12 in the US) it was 30.818.

I don't understand when or where the exchange is determine.

For example, today I looked on MC site and it's 32.1461 and on x-rates.com it's 32.2399. Someone is making away with .09 of a baht. If they do that 100 times it's 9 baht.

The Visa U.S. exchange rate runs from midnight to midnight U.S. Eastern time...with daylight saving time in effect when 13 Jun arrived on the U.S. East coast at one second after midnight that would have been 13 June, 11am in Thailand. So, if that ATM withdrawal was after 11am then your would have got the Visa 0.32391 rate (inverse rate which our brain is use to see would be 30.872773) I wish the Visa US web site would also show the Inverse rate like the Visa Europe sight does...and be sure whenever converting the Visa US rate to the Inverse rate you divide that fractional number given into 1; if you attempt to shortcut using the calculator to get the inverse rate by flipping your entries in the "My Card Is In" and "My Transaction Was In" field then you will get an incorrect, slight high exchange rate due to currency buy/sell spreads. So, if your transaction was after 11am Thailand time then your got the full/no fees passed along to your Visa rate...and it must have been after 11am since the 12 Jun Visa rate was a little lower than the 13 Jun rate. Note: Visa cards issued by European banks need to use the Visa Europe exchange rate page as the rates are a little different.

Now using the MasterCard exchange rate page can hurt your brain because it always seems to be a day behind the current date, and that appears to be because that site is geared more towards determining MasterCard credit card settlement transactions in Europe although the rate applies worldwide. And maybe the day behind reference I made is based on some European time zone...I don't know. But if you were to make a ATM withdrawal "today"/Sat/7Sep in Thailand you would get that 32.1461 rate you mentioned which is the 6 Sep rate on the MasterCard website.

All those exchange rates you see on x.rates.com type FOREX websites are rates for BIG, BIG money trades and are a usually the mid-point between currency buys and sells. They are not rates the common man gets or probably even Thai banks. These sites are OK to look at for trends and you'll probably determine from those trends that Thai banks TT Buying Rates used for incoming wire transfers and Visa rates & MasterCard rates used for debit/credit card transactions will lag those FOREX rates by X-hours to X-days. I say X-days as Visa and MasterCard only set their rates once a day for a whole day and when the FOREX markets are volatile/rates jumping all over the place, Visa and MasterCard seem to be conservative in how fast they will raise or lower their daily rate so they don't get stung by setting a rate that costs them money.

I have found that when the baht is depreciating significantly against the USD that the Visa/MasterCard rates will lag the Thai banks TT Buying Rate by one or two business days...probably closer to 2 days....that is, their rate won't be as good as the faster changing Thai bank TT Buying Rate. But once the FOREX rate settles down the Visa rate usually beats the Thai bank TT Buying Rate and the MasterCard rate gets pretty close. But since for "this week" we have seen the Thai baht continue to depreciate against the USD the TT Buying Rate, whose average across Thai banks right now is 32.26 compared to Visa 32.17 and MC 32.15. But I expect if the baht stabilizes next week the Visa rate will be better than the TT Buying Rate.

When it's time for me to recharge my Thai bank account by using my no foreign transaction fee Visa debit cards to pull around Bt64K/per day using both cards with each having a $1000 daily withdrawal limit I will monitor the FOREX rate "trend" and based on past observations I know there is usually a 1 to 2 day lag on Visa rates I will time my withdrawal. When I see the Visa rate is caught-up by checking the Visa exchange rate website I will use the AEON ATM in my nearby Lotus mall, withdraw Bt64K (approx. $2000...takes 4 withdrawals/insertion of our cards now since AEON ATM limit each withdrawal to Bt20K), take about 20 steps in the mall to the Bangkok Bank branch in the mall and deposit that Bt64K using their Cash Deposit Machine. Whole process takes 5 to 10 minutes to immediately get money from the U.S. absolutely fee-free and I knew exactly what rate I would be getting when sliding my debit cards into the ATMs versus waiting for a wire/ACH transfer to arrive and not knowing what rate I would get until it arrived....keeping your fingers crossed the rate didn't go down before your money arrived. I do my best to time withdrawals when we have a short term peak on the exchange rate...and I have a very high batting percentage in beating what I would have got if doing a low cost ACH transfer. I haven't done a wire/ACH transfer for around 2 years now...being able to get pull up to $2000 per day using my U.S. debit cards easily meets my day-to-day living costs. But I'm sure I will still use a wire/ACH transfer in the future when I may need to transfer to BIG money and can wait a few days to get it posted to my account.

[Nana Cowboy]

Ouch dude, whats the date on this OP? 8/21. hmm what year? 2013. hmm.

it sounds like you got raped. I'm checking my latest rate. your rate is 31.27. my rate I got on 9/2 was 32.02. well you can do your math

[Nana Cowboy]

I just checked a previous withdrawal done on 8/28/2013 and that rate was 32.06. a bit better than the 9/2 take out.

[Nana Cowboy]

My father is a man of great wisdom and he told me once and I will quote this for all to hear and see

he said son "WE LIVE IN A WORLD OF RIPOFF"