Our ultimate goal is to bring down the 'Thaksin regime'

[johnnie20110]

astonishingly ignorant yet bigoted post

Back to your usual insults I see jayboy, can't help yourself can you?

+ 1

[nicknostitz]

Back to your usual insults I see jayboy, cant help yourself can you?

You might like to explain A What's so ignorant about saying that all vocational students are not out to create violence and B what's bigoted about it

And you quote Clockwork Orange, I presume as some sort of reference to what Thai vocational students are like.

"Clockwork Orange" describes their culture of violence quite well.

For vocational school students it is almost impossible to escape this culture, as the peer pressure and force to join is enormous, including the need for a protection network as simply carrying the sign of a school makes one a target of a rival school. Many of the incidents do not make it into the news as they are just too regulary taking place. That ranges from large scale violence of big groups of students up to shoot outs on bussed between students from rival schools (and yes - i am talking *on* buses, some years ago my wife had to escape such a shoot out while riding a public bus).

Anyhow, just trying to give some brief context here, not trying to sway from the topic.

Edited August 26, 2013 by nicknostitz

[jayboy]

Back to your usual insults I see jayboy, cant help yourself can you?

You might like to explain A What's so ignorant about saying that all vocational students are not out to create violence and B what's bigoted about it

And you quote Clockwork Orange, I presume as some sort of reference to what Thai vocational students are like.

"Clockwork Orange" describes their culture of violence quite well.

For vocational school students it is almost impossible to escape this culture, as the peer pressure and force to join is enormous, including the need for a protection network as simply carrying the sign of a school makes one a target of a rival school. Many of the incidents do not make it into the news as they are just too regulary taking place. That ranges from large scale violence of big groups of students up to shoot outs on bussed between students from rival schools (and yes - i am talking *on* buses, some years ago my wife had to escape such a shoot out while riding a public bus).

Anyhow, just trying to give some brief context here, not trying to sway from the topic.

Very briefly, there isn't much if any ideological content among vocational students - and thus they can be manipulated by any group of unscrupulous politicians ready to exploit or threaten the "old ultra violence."

[Robby nz]

Very briefly, there isn't much if any ideological content among vocational students - and thus they can be manipulated by any group of unscrupulous politicians ready to exploit or threaten the "old ultra violence."

I assume you are referring to PT and their red 'helpers' fair enough, a good description.

Still don't believe that all vocational students are out to commit violence.

[jayboy]

Very briefly, there isn't much if any ideological content among vocational students - and thus they can be manipulated by any group of unscrupulous politicians ready to exploit or threaten the "old ultra violence."

I assume you are referring to PT and their red 'helpers' fair enough, a good description.

Still don't believe that all vocational students are out to commit violence.

More bigoted nonsense.Of course not all vocational students are right wing thugs.But some of them are including those who yesterday injured two old redshirt women yesterday.Of course you don't remember the Red Guars let alone understand their significance - but those who do will be concerned.

[khunken]

I have to admit that I wasn't here in Thailand in the 70s. Vocational students from the 70s would now be well into their 60s and it is a false argument - as usual - to imply that modern day vocational students are 'Red Guars' or any other historical label.

AS usual, Nick Nostitz & his arrogant think-alike try to make anything the anti-Thaksin people do seem undemocratic with the ''they are as violent as the reds' BS thrown in.

I doubt that either of the above really know what percentage of current vocational students are violent and what percentage are not. But, no matter, the oracles have spoken and their opinions outweigh hard evidence.

Personally, just about anything is justified in bringing down the Shin clan - as distinct from the PTP which was a real political party - under a different name - before it became a cult. Old Chavalit was a doddery fool but, under him, there was a semblance of consensus & collective decision making.

It's a sort of a 'man bites dog' tale to hear of red shirts being attacked - if they really were.

[jayboy]

I have to admit that I wasn't here in Thailand in the 70s. Vocational students from the 70s would now be well into their 60s and it is a false argument - as usual - to imply that modern day vocational students are 'Red Guars' or any other historical label.

AS usual, Nick Nostitz & his arrogant think-alike try to make anything the anti-Thaksin people do seem undemocratic with the ''they are as violent as the reds' BS thrown in.

I doubt that either of the above really know what percentage of current vocational students are violent and what percentage are not. But, no matter, the oracles have spoken and their opinions outweigh hard evidence.

Personally, just about anything is justified in bringing down the Shin clan - as distinct from the PTP which was a real political party - under a different name - before it became a cult. Old Chavalit was a doddery fool but, under him, there was a semblance of consensus & collective decision making.

It's a sort of a 'man bites dog' tale to hear of red shirts being attacked - if they really were.

Nobody is suggesting that a geriatric version is active of the vocational students who formed a significant part of the 1970's fascist Red Gaurs - though some of the people who supported them and financed them still are.

The point is that the more aware, of whatever persuasion, have natural concerns at the politicisation of vocational students given their murderous record in the past.

Your statement that "just about anything is justified in bringing down the Shin clan" is a disgusting amoral position to take.Does this include murdering people whose opinions you disagree with like the Red Gaurs? I would also remind you that the current PM elected by the Thai people is a member of the Shin Clan.

The way to deal with Thaksin is through the ballot box not thuggish intimidation.That means in practice the Democrats following the programme that Siripon has posted about.I wish it well because one party democracy is unhealthy.

The current Democrat leadership including Abhisit and Korn is tainted.I genuinely feel sad about this.Suthep is...well Suthep.

One decent imaginative Democrat in play - Alongkorn Polabutr, the Deputy leader.He could win back the country but people like Khunying Kalaya would never allow him the opportunity.

[nicknostitz]

I have to admit that I wasn't here in Thailand in the 70s. Vocational students from the 70s would now be well into their 60s and it is a false argument - as usual - to imply that modern day vocational students are 'Red Guars' or any other historical label.

AS usual, Nick Nostitz & his arrogant think-alike try to make anything the anti-Thaksin people do seem undemocratic with the ''they are as violent as the reds' BS thrown in.

I doubt that either of the above really know what percentage of current vocational students are violent and what percentage are not. But, no matter, the oracles have spoken and their opinions outweigh hard evidence.

Personally, just about anything is justified in bringing down the Shin clan - as distinct from the PTP which was a real political party - under a different name - before it became a cult. Old Chavalit was a doddery fool but, under him, there was a semblance of consensus & collective decision making.

It's a sort of a 'man bites dog' tale to hear of red shirts being attacked - if they really were.

There more than sufficient hard evidence that on many occasions also members of the different yellow shirt groups have initiated violence, and have killed people. So yes, both sides are as violent (or peaceful) as the other.

The mechanics under vocational school student violence has not changed in decades. The label does not matter - what matters is that they have been actively drawn in by the groups in Lumpini Park (to which the Democrat Party has openly allied itself). The vocational school students joined under the exact same motto they have joined in the mid 70's the Kranting Daeng: to protect the monarchy. I have yesterday photographed a group swearing to exactly that at the statue at Lumpini Park, and asked them as well why they joined. Their answer was that they are not particularly interested in politics, but want to protect the monarchy.

As to the age gaps - you should know that in Thai society in the formation of peer groups there is a lifelong bond between "Lun Pi" (the elder generation), and "Lun Nong" (younger generation), in which respect has to be given to ones elders who in turn are responsible to look out for the young (there is a particular term in Thai defining this particular relationship which presently escapes me). This is custom is very strong under vocational school students.

Given that one of the main points raised on Democrat Party stages, especially by the in the article mentioned Nipit Intarasombat (i would suggest to listen to his speeches, if you can understand Thai), is the protection of the monarchy and the accusation that the government and the Red Shirts are disloyal - certain parallels to the 1970's are rather obvious, and should not be dismissed.

This conflict goes far deeper than "the Shin clan" - it is a continuation of decades of social conflicts within Thai society. This would be quite clear if you listen to the speeches of both sides' stages, and even more obvious if you would read up on the background of Thailand's past conflicts (in which many leaders and ordinary protesters in both Red and Yellow have participated).

[Nickymaster]

I have to admit that I wasn't here in Thailand in the 70s. Vocational students from the 70s would now be well into their 60s and it is a false argument - as usual - to imply that modern day vocational students are 'Red Guars' or any other historical label.

AS usual, Nick Nostitz & his arrogant think-alike try to make anything the anti-Thaksin people do seem undemocratic with the ''they are as violent as the reds' BS thrown in.

I doubt that either of the above really know what percentage of current vocational students are violent and what percentage are not. But, no matter, the oracles have spoken and their opinions outweigh hard evidence.

Personally, just about anything is justified in bringing down the Shin clan - as distinct from the PTP which was a real political party - under a different name - before it became a cult. Old Chavalit was a doddery fool but, under him, there was a semblance of consensus & collective decision making.

It's a sort of a 'man bites dog' tale to hear of red shirts being attacked - if they really were.

There more than sufficient hard evidence that on many occasions also members of the different yellow shirt groups have initiated violence, and have killed people. So yes, both sides are as violent (or peaceful) as the other.

The mechanics under vocational school student violence has not changed in decades. The label does not matter - what matters is that they have been actively drawn in by the groups in Lumpini Park (to which the Democrat Party has openly allied itself). The vocational school students joined under the exact same motto they have joined in the mid 70's the Kranting Daeng: to protect the monarchy. I have yesterday photographed a group swearing to exactly that at the statue at Lumpini Park, and asked them as well why they joined. Their answer was that they are not particularly interested in politics, but want to protect the monarchy.

As to the age gaps - you should know that in Thai society in the formation of peer groups there is a lifelong bond between "Lun Pi" (the elder generation), and "Lun Nong" (younger generation), in which respect has to be given to ones elders who in turn are responsible to look out for the young (there is a particular term in Thai defining this particular relationship which presently escapes me). This is custom is very strong under vocational school students.

Given that one of the main points raised on Democrat Party stages, especially by the in the article mentioned Nipit Intarasombat (i would suggest to listen to his speeches, if you can understand Thai), is the protection of the monarchy and the accusation that the government and the Red Shirts are disloyal - certain parallels to the 1970's are rather obvious, and should not be dismissed.

This conflict goes far deeper than "the Shin clan" - it is a continuation of decades of social conflicts within Thai society. This would be quite clear if you listen to the speeches of both sides' stages, and even more obvious if you would read up on the background of Thailand's past conflicts (in which many leaders and ordinary protesters in both Red and Yellow have participated).

There more than sufficient hard evidence that on many occasions also members of the different yellow shirt groups have initiated violence, and have killed people. So yes, both sides are as violent (or peaceful) as the other.

Come on Nick, as violent? The yellow shirts have been as violent as the Reds have in 2010? When? The yellow shirts have been violent but how can they be as violent as the Red shirts?

Who would ever take you serious with such biased comments Nick? (or is credibility not your aim?)

Or are you saying that they are as violent BUT the Red shirts have destroyed much more property and killed more people?

Edited August 26, 2013 by Nickymaster

[khunken]

I have to admit that I wasn't here in Thailand in the 70s. Vocational students from the 70s would now be well into their 60s and it is a false argument - as usual - to imply that modern day vocational students are 'Red Guars' or any other historical label.

AS usual, Nick Nostitz & his arrogant think-alike try to make anything the anti-Thaksin people do seem undemocratic with the ''they are as violent as the reds' BS thrown in.

I doubt that either of the above really know what percentage of current vocational students are violent and what percentage are not. But, no matter, the oracles have spoken and their opinions outweigh hard evidence.

Personally, just about anything is justified in bringing down the Shin clan - as distinct from the PTP which was a real political party - under a different name - before it became a cult. Old Chavalit was a doddery fool but, under him, there was a semblance of consensus & collective decision making.

It's a sort of a 'man bites dog' tale to hear of red shirts being attacked - if they really were.

Nobody is suggesting that a geriatric version is active of the vocational students who formed a significant part of the 1970's fascist Red Gaurs - though some of the people who supported them and financed them still are.

The point is that the more aware, of whatever persuasion, have natural concerns at the politicisation of vocational students given their murderous record in the past.

Your statement that "just about anything is justified in bringing down the Shin clan" is a disgusting amoral position to take.Does this include murdering people whose opinions you disagree with like the Red Gaurs? I would also remind you that the current PM elected by the Thai people is a member of the Shin Clan.

The way to deal with Thaksin is through the ballot box not thuggish intimidation.That means in practice the Democrats following the programme that Siripon has posted about.I wish it well because one party democracy is unhealthy.

The current Democrat leadership including Abhisit and Korn is tainted.I genuinely feel sad about this.Suthep is...well Suthep.

One decent imaginative Democrat in play - Alongkorn Polabutr, the Deputy leader.He could win back the country but people like Khunying Kalaya would never allow him the opportunity.

If no one is suggesting that the 'red guars' are active - then why bring it up? You are just using that label to imply that current vocational students are similar. Pretty nasty thinking there.

In recent years a small minority of vocational students have been fighting one another in gangs. There have been a very small number of vocational institutions involved, mainly in the Bangkok vicinity. No one is actively recruiting the violent gangs - despite your continued innuendo.

However if some of the violent ones - as well as the peaceful majority - can be brought into politics they might be distracted from targeting other students. Also, maybe some of them would make very good guards against red shirt thugs..

I stand by my statement that anything is justified to get the Shin clan out of politics and high-ranking security positions. Yingluck wasn't elected - she was shoe-horned into number one on the party list by her brother. Thaksin is not averse to using violence as you well know - drug 'war', Tak Bai, Krue Se as well as his militia in 2009 & 2010. I have no hesitation in supporting similar methods to get rid of him & that's the key to removing the clan's main power.

Once that happens, all parties - including the Democrats - can have a real dialogue about reform & no war criminals will be needed to add a faux international flavour to it.

[mikemac]

More bigoted nonsense.Of course not all vocational students are right wing thugs.But some of them are including those who yesterday injured two old redshirt women yesterday.Of course you don't remember the Red Guars let alone understand their significance - but those who do will be concerned.

Gee, get a grip jayboy.

You almost sound like you are trying to make us feel sorry for your beloved redshirt thugs/cut-throats/terrorists !

"two old redshirt women" ??? I wonder if they are old hands who contributed to the blockade and burning of Bangkok in 2010 ?

Or were they based up-country burning government buildings or smashing Bangkok Bank ATMs with sledge hammers ?

You talk about other TV members posting bigoted nonsense, got news for you mate, the garbage you write is full of it.

[nicknostitz]

If no one is suggesting that the 'red guars' are active - then why bring it up? You are just using that label to imply that current vocational students are similar. Pretty nasty thinking there.

In recent years a small minority of vocational students have been fighting one another in gangs. There have been a very small number of vocational institutions involved, mainly in the Bangkok vicinity. No one is actively recruiting the violent gangs - despite your continued innuendo.

However if some of the violent ones - as well as the peaceful majority - can be brought into politics they might be distracted from targeting other students. Also, maybe some of them would make very good guards against red shirt thugs..

I stand by my statement that anything is justified to get the Shin clan out of politics and high-ranking security positions. Yingluck wasn't elected - she was shoe-horned into number one on the party list by her brother. Thaksin is not averse to using violence as you well know - drug 'war', Tak Bai, Krue Se as well as his militia in 2009 & 2010. I have no hesitation in supporting similar methods to get rid of him & that's the key to removing the clan's main power.

Once that happens, all parties - including the Democrats - can have a real dialogue about reform & no war criminals will be needed to add a faux international flavour to it.

I think you just made a deep fall from the supposed moral high ground into a very dark abyss...

Only thing - you are just a bit late with your suggestion to use violent tactics to overthrow an elected government (yes - PTP and Yingluck were elected) - this has happened already all along. 2006 there was a coup (which is a violent action, by definition), 2008 there was the government house occupation and the formation of the PAD "naclop srivichai" - the first armed non-state group in the present conflict, in 2009 you have had the "Blue Shirts" (Navy, Newin's look nong, and some PAD guards, set up by Suthep and Newin), who attacked Red Shirts (the first attack was the night before the storming of the ASEAN venue), etc.

But as you said - you support any means to get rid of "the Shin clan". Just one one question: how on earth would that make you any better than what you accuse "the Shin clan" of doing?

[backtonormal]

That's never been a policy of the Democrats or the Bangkok elite. Like the other side of politics, power is all they want.

But do the Dems 'only want power' Time Traveler, have they shown that in the past and are they showing it now?

If that was the case surely the easiest way to get power would be to go along with PT and become part of 'their' government and share the power.

Abhisit for Deputy PM, Korn for treasurer then they could have the power to help to rape the country, all they would have to do is kiss Thaksins ass.

They have no chance of winning in Parliament all they can do is try to bring the misdeeds of PT to the public attention.

Yet they continue fighting against what is recognized world wide as a corrupt regime in spite of threats and intimidation in the way of numerous law suits.

Is that showing a lust for power?

"Yet they continue fighting against what is recognized world wide as a corrupt regime in spite of threats and intimidation in the way of numerous law suits"....what utter nonsense.

When Abhisit was brought to power with a coalition made in an army camp nobody invited him anywhere at a diplomatic level because they knew ...as always the Dems were propped up by the army.

When Yingluck gets to power ...shes off everywhere (or shopping trips as the doubters refer to it) at the invite of Western powers and her fugitive brother has nearly clocked as many airmiles as she as at the invite of other countries. I suggest you find a more accurate source before posting

[backtonormal]

If the Democrat Party indeed is not aiming at "creating violence", and therefore "not responsible for it", i wonder then what they are doing in alliance with the group at Lumpini Park. Yesterday several hundred vocational students, representatives from many colleges, joined the Lumpini Park rally - the exact same gangs which are regularly getting into the news for their fights with rival schools. Given the propensity for extreme violence under these groups reaching back decades, no political group that purposely reaches out to them to attract them to their political cause can absolve itself of responsibility in case violence will break out.

For the context - during the volatile 70's vocational students were first allied with the pro-democracy groups in 1973 which ousted dictators Praphas and Thanom and , but soon changed sides, and formed part of the core troops of the extreme right wing paramilitary "Krating Daeng" (Red Gaur), which was responsible for many killings of student leaders, union leaders and suspected communists and leftists.

my hero

[backtonormal]

If the Democrat Party indeed is not aiming at "creating violence", and therefore "not responsible for it", i wonder then what they are doing in alliance with the group at Lumpini Park. Yesterday several hundred vocational students, representatives from many colleges, joined the Lumpini Park rally - the exact same gangs which are regularly getting into the news for their fights with rival schools. Given the propensity for extreme violence under these groups reaching back decades, no political group that purposely reaches out to them to attract them to their political cause can absolve itself of responsibility in case violence will break out.

Not so keen on your theory that all vocational students are violent, perhaps there are a vast majority who are keen to study and get somewhere in the world.

Could be that they even keep up with the news and can see where PT is taking this country they will be spending their lives in and don't like what they see?

And possibly they believe they have a stake in what will happen in this country and would like to see it free of the present corruption, lies, threats and intimidation.

But hay, its obvious none of them were lucky enough to go to a red school or they would know the real truth.

It's pointless for Nick Nostitz or indeed anyone who has any knowledge of Thai history (or indeed general culture - Clockwork Orange etc) to argue with this kind of astonishingly ignorant yet bigoted post.Some of us who were here in the 1970's know about the background of the red gaurs and village scouts (and who encouraged and financed them).

All the Thai history is at your finger tips but after they google it they wont want to believe what they are reading. Its not a crime to research but it may be a crime to post it

[khunken]

If no one is suggesting that the 'red guars' are active - then why bring it up? You are just using that label to imply that current vocational students are similar. Pretty nasty thinking there.

In recent years a small minority of vocational students have been fighting one another in gangs. There have been a very small number of vocational institutions involved, mainly in the Bangkok vicinity. No one is actively recruiting the violent gangs - despite your continued innuendo.

However if some of the violent ones - as well as the peaceful majority - can be brought into politics they might be distracted from targeting other students. Also, maybe some of them would make very good guards against red shirt thugs..

I stand by my statement that anything is justified to get the Shin clan out of politics and high-ranking security positions. Yingluck wasn't elected - she was shoe-horned into number one on the party list by her brother. Thaksin is not averse to using violence as you well know - drug 'war', Tak Bai, Krue Se as well as his militia in 2009 & 2010. I have no hesitation in supporting similar methods to get rid of him & that's the key to removing the clan's main power.

Once that happens, all parties - including the Democrats - can have a real dialogue about reform & no war criminals will be needed to add a faux international flavour to it.

I think you just made a deep fall from the supposed moral high ground into a very dark abyss...

Only thing - you are just a bit late with your suggestion to use violent tactics to overthrow an elected government (yes - PTP and Yingluck were elected) - this has happened already all along. 2006 there was a coup (which is a violent action, by definition), 2008 there was the government house occupation and the formation of the PAD "naclop srivichai" - the first armed non-state group in the present conflict, in 2009 you have had the "Blue Shirts" (Navy, Newin's look nong, and some PAD guards, set up by Suthep and Newin), who attacked Red Shirts (the first attack was the night before the storming of the ASEAN venue), etc.

But as you said - you support any means to get rid of "the Shin clan". Just one one question: how on earth would that make you any better than what you accuse "the Shin clan" of doing?

I have never claimed to write from any 'moral high ground' which you confuse with an opinion.

Yes, it is possible to twist the party list nominees as being elected. Not democratically elected as the party list was selected & vetted by one person who chose his sister ahead of professional politicians.

I know nothing about the 'naciop srivichai' but I rather suspect that the 'blue shirts' were trying to defend the Asean venue against violent red shirts. Yes, I know that doesn't fit into your opinions stated here on Thaivisa.

Your last sentence is as mistaken as the first. I don't claim anything for myself - I'm not very rich, not power grabbing, not totally corrupt (yes, I've paid a 'fine' to the BIB), never practised nepotism, and never paid anyone to kill someone else. If that makes me a better person than Thaksin I cannot judge. Comparing me to him is superficial.

Edited August 26, 2013 by khunken

[Scott]

An inflammatory post has been removed. Please keep your comments to the topic and not about other posters.

[MrSlatersParrot]

If no one is suggesting that the 'red guars' are active - then why bring it up? You are just using that label to imply that current vocational students are similar. Pretty nasty thinking there.

In recent years a small minority of vocational students have been fighting one another in gangs. There have been a very small number of vocational institutions involved, mainly in the Bangkok vicinity. No one is actively recruiting the violent gangs - despite your continued innuendo.

However if some of the violent ones - as well as the peaceful majority - can be brought into politics they might be distracted from targeting other students. Also, maybe some of them would make very good guards against red shirt thugs..

I stand by my statement that anything is justified to get the Shin clan out of politics and high-ranking security positions. Yingluck wasn't elected - she was shoe-horned into number one on the party list by her brother. Thaksin is not averse to using violence as you well know - drug 'war', Tak Bai, Krue Se as well as his militia in 2009 & 2010. I have no hesitation in supporting similar methods to get rid of him & that's the key to removing the clan's main power.

Once that happens, all parties - including the Democrats - can have a real dialogue about reform & no war criminals will be needed to add a faux international flavour to it.

I think you just made a deep fall from the supposed moral high ground into a very dark abyss...

Only thing - you are just a bit late with your suggestion to use violent tactics to overthrow an elected government (yes - PTP and Yingluck were elected) - this has happened already all along. 2006 there was a coup (which is a violent action, by definition), 2008 there was the government house occupation and the formation of the PAD "naclop srivichai" - the first armed non-state group in the present conflict, in 2009 you have had the "Blue Shirts" (Navy, Newin's look nong, and some PAD guards, set up by Suthep and Newin), who attacked Red Shirts (the first attack was the night before the storming of the ASEAN venue), etc.

But as you said - you support any means to get rid of "the Shin clan". Just one one question: how on earth would that make you any better than what you accuse "the Shin clan" of doing?

I have never claimed to write from any 'moral high ground' which you confuse with an opinion.

Yes, it is possible to twist the party list nominees as being elected. Not democratically elected as the party list was selected & vetted by one person who chose his sister ahead of professional politicians.

I know nothing about the 'naciop srivichai' but I rather suspect that the 'blue shirts' were trying to defend the Asean venue against violent red shirts. Yes, I know that doesn't fit into your opinions stated here on Thaivisa.

Your last sentence is as mistaken as the first. I don't claim anything for myself - I'm not very rich, not power grabbing, not totally corrupt (yes, I've paid a 'fine' to the BIB), never practised nepotism, and never paid anyone to kill someone else. If that makes me a better person than Thaksin I cannot judge. Comparing me to him is superficial.

No the blue shirts attacked the redshirts on the road. Pictures emerged of Newin using a walkie talkie at the scene. Doing his bit for the royalists.

Also we had the pictures of the blue shirts, the next day, emerging from behind police lines in Pattaya armed with long sticks and then seeing they were outnumbered they all scurried back behind the police lines.

Got the pictures somewhere on one of my machines.

[nicknostitz]

I have never claimed to write from any 'moral high ground' which you confuse with an opinion.

Yes, it is possible to twist the party list nominees as being elected. Not democratically elected as the party list was selected & vetted by one person who chose his sister ahead of professional politicians.

I know nothing about the 'naciop srivichai' but I rather suspect that the 'blue shirts' were trying to defend the Asean venue against violent red shirts. Yes, I know that doesn't fit into your opinions stated here on Thaivisa.

Your last sentence is as mistaken as the first. I don't claim anything for myself - I'm not very rich, not power grabbing, not totally corrupt (yes, I've paid a 'fine' to the BIB), never practised nepotism, and never paid anyone to kill someone else. If that makes me a better person than Thaksin I cannot judge. Comparing me to him is superficial.

If you don't know about Naclop Srivichai (Srivichai Warriors) or the Blue Shirts, i would suggest to first educate yourself about the history of the conflict of the past years before accusing me of bias (and/or clicking the like button on a highly insulting and defaming post).

[nicknostitz]

No the blue shirts attacked the redshirts on the road. Pictures emerged of Newin using a walkie talkie at the scene. Doing his bit for the royalists.

Also we had the pictures of the blue shirts, the next day, emerging from behind police lines in Pattaya armed with long sticks and then seeing they were outnumbered they all scurried back behind the police lines.

Got the pictures somewhere on one of my machines.

here they are...

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/nn-33.jpg

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/nn-34.jpg

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/nn-35.jpg

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/nn-36.jpg

part of this story:

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2009/04/20/the-crushing-of-the-red-shirts/

Edited August 26, 2013 by nicknostitz

[Stradavarius37]

Same sh&t Different Day

[khunken]

I have never claimed to write from any 'moral high ground' which you confuse with an opinion.

Yes, it is possible to twist the party list nominees as being elected. Not democratically elected as the party list was selected & vetted by one person who chose his sister ahead of professional politicians.

I know nothing about the 'naciop srivichai' but I rather suspect that the 'blue shirts' were trying to defend the Asean venue against violent red shirts. Yes, I know that doesn't fit into your opinions stated here on Thaivisa.

Your last sentence is as mistaken as the first. I don't claim anything for myself - I'm not very rich, not power grabbing, not totally corrupt (yes, I've paid a 'fine' to the BIB), never practised nepotism, and never paid anyone to kill someone else. If that makes me a better person than Thaksin I cannot judge. Comparing me to him is superficial.

If you don't know about Naclop Srivichai (Srivichai Warriors) or the Blue Shirts, i would suggest to first educate yourself about the history of the conflict of the past years before accusing me of bias (and/or clicking the like button on a highly insulting and defaming post).

Yes, I'll look into the the 'history' (if they really have one) of the blue shirts but I'll do it from an independent source.

BTW I'm not just including you of bias on this thread - I can't remember one unbiased post from you on Thaivisa.

Also you are placing yourself in the same class as 'PC Pisit' - I will add a like to any post until the thought police come knocking on Thaivisa's door.

[nicknostitz]

Yes, I'll look into the the 'history' (if they really have one) of the blue shirts but I'll do it from an independent source.

BTW I'm not just including you of bias on this thread - I can't remember one unbiased post from you on Thaivisa.

Also you are placing yourself in the same class as 'PC Pisit' - I will add a like to any post until the thought police come knocking on Thaivisa's door.

Well, if the accusation of bias comes from a person who has just had to admit that he had no knowledge about two of the most elementary issues of the past years of conflict, the accusations quite clearly lacks substance and credibility.

Good luck with looking into the history. I am afraid though that there are many other issues you may want to look into related to this subject.

[johnnie20110]

I have to admit that I wasn't here in Thailand in the 70s. Vocational students from the 70s would now be well into their 60s and it is a false argument - as usual - to imply that modern day vocational students are 'Red Guars' or any other historical label.

AS usual, Nick Nostitz & his arrogant think-alike try to make anything the anti-Thaksin people do seem undemocratic with the ''they are as violent as the reds' BS thrown in.

I doubt that either of the above really know what percentage of current vocational students are violent and what percentage are not. But, no matter, the oracles have spoken and their opinions outweigh hard evidence.

Personally, just about anything is justified in bringing down the Shin clan - as distinct from the PTP which was a real political party - under a different name - before it became a cult. Old Chavalit was a doddery fool but, under him, there was a semblance of consensus & collective decision making.

It's a sort of a 'man bites dog' tale to hear of red shirts being attacked - if they really were.

Nobody is suggesting that a geriatric version is active of the vocational students who formed a significant part of the 1970's fascist Red Gaurs - though some of the people who supported them and financed them still are.

The point is that the more aware, of whatever persuasion, have natural concerns at the politicisation of vocational students given their murderous record in the past.

Your statement that "just about anything is justified in bringing down the Shin clan" is a disgusting amoral position to take.Does this include murdering people whose opinions you disagree with like the Red Gaurs? I would also remind you that the current PM elected by the Thai people is a member of the Shin Clan.

The way to deal with Thaksin is through the ballot box not thuggish intimidation.That means in practice the Democrats following the programme that Siripon has posted about.I wish it well because one party democracy is unhealthy.

The current Democrat leadership including Abhisit and Korn is tainted.I genuinely feel sad about this.Suthep is...well Suthep.

One decent imaginative Democrat in play - Alongkorn Polabutr, the Deputy leader.He could win back the country but people like Khunying Kalaya would never allow him the opportunity.

If no one is suggesting that the 'red guars' are active - then why bring it up? You are just using that label to imply that current vocational students are similar. Pretty nasty thinking there.

Red Gaurs, and later, Blue Shirts, are both just red herrings.

[johnnie20110]

i would suggest to first educate yourself about the history of the conflict of the past years before accusing me of bias (and/or clicking the like button on a highly insulting and defaming post).

BTW I'm not just including you of bias on this thread - I can't remember one unbiased post from you on Thaivisa.

Also you are placing yourself in the same class as 'PC Pisit' - I will add a like to any post until the thought police come knocking on Thaivisa's door.

Amazing Thailand/Thaivisa

After the incident the Technology Crime Suppression Division (TCSD) of the Royal Thai Police TCSD pledged to press charges against users who simply "liked"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/663072-what-can-we-say-online-a-report-on-thailands-internet-freedom/#entry6750306

[scorecard]

If the Democrat Party indeed is not aiming at "creating violence", and therefore "not responsible for it", i wonder then what they are doing in alliance with the group at Lumpini Park. Yesterday several hundred vocational students, representatives from many colleges, joined the Lumpini Park rally - the exact same gangs which are regularly getting into the news for their fights with rival schools. Given the propensity for extreme violence under these groups reaching back decades, no political group that purposely reaches out to them to attract them to their political cause can absolve itself of responsibility in case violence will break out.

For the context - during the volatile 70's vocational students were first allied with the pro-democracy groups in 1973 which ousted dictators Praphas and Thanom and , but soon changed sides, and formed part of the core troops of the extreme right wing paramilitary "Krating Daeng" (Red Gaur), which was responsible for many killings of student leaders, union leaders and suspected communists and leftists.

Your assuming they are all violent?

Edited August 26, 2013 by scorecard

[nicknostitz]

Your assuming they are all violent?

The ones i have seen, photographed and spoken with yesterday?

Yes - without any doubt.

[johnnie20110]

Yesterday several hundred vocational students, representatives from many colleges, joined the Lumpini Park rally - the exact same gangs which are regularly getting into the news for their fights with rival schools.

Your assuming they are all violent?

Somehow, several hundred "violent" vocational students failed to be violent enough to make the news.

[Robby nz]

No the blue shirts attacked the redshirts on the road. Pictures emerged of Newin using a walkie talkie at the scene. Doing his bit for the royalists.

Hay Mrs slaters Parrot, that would be the same day the reds smashed Abhisit's car wouldn't it?

He is lucky to be alive, if he had been in the car that day there is a very good chance he would not.

And that was after the reds broke into the ASIAN meeting that that some of the delegates scrambling to get into helicopters to escape wasn't it?

But of course breaking down doors isn't violence is it, not when the reds do it anyway.

That day was a great show of just how much Thaksin cares about the county and its reputation overseas.

And Nick;

So now we move forward to last weekend when the poor reds were so viciously attacked by some students.

What were the reds doing there anyway?

I know if you don't, they were there doing their best to disrupt someone else's meeting. As they have done many times before.

In other words they were trying to cause trouble, so the got trouble, diddums.

And 2 old ladys got hurt you say? So the red leaders are still hiding behind old ladys, its a wonder they didn't have children there in front of them as well, as they have in the past.

Your attempt to go back to the seventies and use a fictional film to label vocational students as violent just doesn't wash.

Could it be that some of the violent students from back then are now red shirt leaders or even PT MP's? That would fit very well.

[nicknostitz]

No the blue shirts attacked the redshirts on the road. Pictures emerged of Newin using a walkie talkie at the scene. Doing his bit for the royalists.

Hay Mrs slaters Parrot, that would be the same day the reds smashed Abhisit's car wouldn't it?

He is lucky to be alive, if he had been in the car that day there is a very good chance he would not.

And that was after the reds broke into the ASIAN meeting that that some of the delegates scrambling to get into helicopters to escape wasn't it?

But of course breaking down doors isn't violence is it, not when the reds do it anyway.

That day was a great show of just how much Thaksin cares about the county and its reputation overseas.

And Nick;

So now we move forward to last weekend when the poor reds were so viciously attacked by some students.

What were the reds doing there anyway?

I know if you don't, they were there doing their best to disrupt someone else's meeting. As they have done many times before.

In other words they were trying to cause trouble, so the got trouble, diddums.

And 2 old ladys got hurt you say? So the red leaders are still hiding behind old ladys, its a wonder they didn't have children there in front of them as well, as they have in the past.

Your attempt to go back to the seventies and use a fictional film to label vocational students as violent just doesn't wash.

Could it be that some of the violent students from back then are now red shirt leaders or even PT MP's? That would fit very well.

Oh, my...another history lesson.

The Blue Shirt attacks came before the storming of the ASEAN venue - to be exact, the first attack took place in the evening before, and the second a few few hours before the storming of the Asean venue. There would not have been any storming of the ASEAN conference if the Blue Shirt attacks would not have taken place as the Red Shirts initially only sent a small delegation to Pattaya to hand over letter - the same delegation that was attacked initially by the Blue Shirts. The interior ministry incident during which Abhisit was attacked in his car took place the day after.

As to the attack yesterday - i am not 100% sure of the numbers of injured as i came after the attack, and was not present. What seems to be quite clear, so far, is that Red Shirts passed Rama IV Rd on their way back to Samut Prakan, provoked the Lumpini crowd by playing Red Shirt songs, and were attacked in return, when they got stuck in the traffic jam.

As to the vocational students / Krating Daeng of then, most are actually allied with the Yellow Shirts (similar positions regarding defense of monarchy, etc), through whose Lun Pi - Lun Nong networks the students that were to be seen at Lumini came to join.

A few of the former Krating Daeng members i know of are with the Red Shirts.

Similar with the other parts of the October Generation - which are also split between Red and Yellow.

It may sound a bit too complicated for you, but without awareness of what took place during the 70's you will not be able to understand the configuration of today's conflict.

Edited August 26, 2013 by nicknostitz