Trust, not in Thailand

[frank0424]

"I realize we should have had a contract written up which I wanted but the family said that she was very trustworthy and would not do anything bad, looks like their idea of a good friend has flown, money beats everything here obviously."

What you said.

Don't suppose verbal contracts hold up in Thailand?

One of the MOST expensive lessons I've had to learn is that

Verbal Agreements mean absolutely NOTHING in Thailand!

I've learnt that verbal agreements mean nothing anywhere

[samran]

sad story

you should have bought the plot before upgrading it

a friend of mine rented a nice plot on the beach

built a restaurant and a few bungalows all official and paid for , bussines is going great

now next year his lease ends and the owner now charges 10 X the price as he paid befor cause it has all the buildings and bussines there

thai law does not let him break down the buildings to relocate cos everything build becomes property of the landowner

i told him get a good insurance and hope that lightning will strike and burn the place to the ground when his lease is about to end

Thai law is actually very clear that the ownership of the land and buildings are completely separate. It is one of the quirks which allows foreigners to buy houses here (but not the land).

[bobnuts]

Honesty and integrity. Two concepts burned deep in the psyche of all (most) European/Australian/Americans. Alien concepts not worthy of consideration to many Thais.

[johnlandy]

"I realize we should have had a contract written up which I wanted but the family said that she was very trustworthy and would not do anything bad, looks like their idea of a good friend has flown, money beats everything here obviously."

What you said.

Don't suppose verbal contracts hold up in Thailand?

Written ones not much less so.

[samran]

Honesty and integrity. Two concepts burned deep in the psyche of all (most) European/Australian/Americans. Alien concepts not worthy of consideration to many Thais.

Tosh.

Clearly the concepts of contracts, suing and litigation don't even exist in the west then...

[patongphil]

Showed this to my wife she just shrugged her shoulders and said "trust no one". Her brother asked to borrow 1,000 bht and she asked for some form of deposit, car, gold, motorcycle...said the only person she trusted was herself.

My wife thinks the whole family is in on the scam including your wife. No doubt once all is done and dusted your wife's bank account will have a few extra zeros behind it.

My God this is sick. Your wife obviously moves in different circles to my family.

[Kananga]

My wife's grandfather had a lovely big teak Thai house he built over a number of years. He also liked a drink by all accounts. His wife's brother knowing this got him blind drunk one night and tricked him into signing his house over to him and then kicked him out the next day. His own sister and brother in law. I hear stories like this regularly in Thailand. There are some truly horrible people here. And yes, you get horrible people everywhere but nowhere near this extent. With the government, police force, judiciary and countless stories of people like this I am really beginning to believe that Thailand is rotten to the core.

Thai basher !

Correction - Rotten Thai basher.

The guy who sells me pineapple every day for 10 baht is ok.

[Kananga]

My wife's grandfather had a lovely big teak Thai house he built over a number of years. He also liked a drink by all accounts. His wife's brother knowing this got him blind drunk one night and tricked him into signing his house over to him and then kicked him out the next day. His own sister and brother in law. I hear stories like this regularly in Thailand. There are some truly horrible people here. And yes, you get horrible people everywhere but nowhere near this extent. With the government, police force, judiciary and countless stories of people like this I am really beginning to believe that Thailand is rotten to the core.

Nice story, but you simply can't transfer your property in this manner.

Apparently in days gone past you could. This was 40 years ago according to my wife. Of course she could have made up and lied because she is Thai and its ingrained in their culture. Either way, I make my point.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Kananga

[sailblue]

Hey Seajay, it is the Thai trap, cheap rent, "I do'nt care about the land use it for years if you want". You must have made it look too good. If she had done a deal with only your misses and her family, probably stuck to it, but a falung in the picture ???

My only thoughts would be how to recover what you can, trees etc, get them onto another block asap. Save what you can, even the topsoil. And do it now.

I see up my girls area they are always fighting between uncles and the like over deals where they dud each other.

[ppmacready]

In my view Westerners use the word' friend' much more cautiously than Thais who will use the word 'pheuan' for workmates, classmates, people they know generally. But the OP says his wife considered her to be a very good friend, so either the wife misjudged her or she is a real bitch.

But the OP shouldn't distrust all Thais, there are plenty of good folks out there.

Yes most of my friends are luckily married to very ''special'' Thais!

[mauGR1]

I had a similar experience few years ago..

A landowner, friend of my GF, gave us a plot of land to grow a garden.

I was quite enjoying the hard work of digging and raking, and planting vegetables 2 or 3 hours everyday...After about 2 weeks, one morning we saw them bulldozing the land..... Bad feeling, i tell you.

My GF was so shocked by her friend behaviour, i could not say a word to her, just not to add grief.

Lesson learned.

Call me Thai basher if you like, at home i can trust 30 % of the people, here i guess less than 10 %..

Many reasons for that...As the long timers have noticed already, scams and lies are rampant among the locals, go figure when a foreigner with no social status is involved.

[1Ping1]

Bite yourself in the backside until it burns and move on. Remember the burn. Sad reality is you have been burned and have no legal recourse. Well you do but you will never win. Remember, we are visitors in their country. Not matter how long you have lived here.

Sorry man, you put a lot of love and work into this project.

[BudRight]

In many countries a verbal contract is still binding and you could take this bitch to court. Salt the land before you leave.

Wait...better would be to tell the woman you know a magician who will curse the land if she doesn't let you use it. Then if she doesn't change her mind...

Edited August 28, 2013 by BudRight

[Trembly]

Amykat makes a very good point that a verbal contract is still a contract under Thai law. What sort of witnesses to the contract have you got?

[Just1Voice]

Do what the Romans did in ancient times. HEAVILY salt the land so that nothing will grow there again for years to come. Not even weeds.

[fire and ice]

As a businessman doing business in any country (I'm Australian BTW) I wouldn't dream of doing something like this without a detailed long term leagally binding lease in place, it has little to do with trust Thailand! I cant imagine what you were thinking? Sounds like a lack of due dillegence to me. If anyone aledges they are trustworthy then they have no reason to NOT sign a formal agreemnt regadless.

[fire and ice]

Amykat makes a very good point that a verbal contract is still a contract under Thai law. What sort of witnesses to the contract have you got?

Id be surprised if a verbal contract for lease/rental of land would be valid. In most coutnries (possibly all) any agreemnt invovling land needs to be in writing to be valid. Not sure with Thailand but Id be surpised if verbal held up even if it were admitted to.

[Trembly]

Amykat makes a very good point that a verbal contract is still a contract under Thai law. What sort of witnesses to the contract have you got?

Id be surprised if a verbal contract for lease/rental of land would be valid. In most coutnries (possibly all) any agreemnt invovling land needs to be in writing to be valid. Not sure with Thailand but Id be surpised if verbal held up even if it were admitted to.

Obviously, courts prefer written contracts because it is much easier for the judge to hear what the lawyers have got to say about what's written down than it is for the judge to have to listen to endless witness statements and counter-statements, cross examinations on the characters, motivations, possible bias and so on.

That, however, does not alter the fact that under Thai law a contract is a contract is a contract whether it is written or verbal.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Trembly

[giggles]

i used to know this wheelchair bound yank in BKK .a women he knew gave him some space to setup a workshop to make wheelchairs ,and after a lot of exertion for him very difficult ,she pulled the rug out from under his feet and said he couldn't use it any more so he had to abandon the idea and walk way from his workshop he had labored over at some cost

[afp76]

OP, I understand your despair but I have no solution for you more than check with a lawyer if they can help.

What my girlfriend said once she heard the story; "Yes of course. When it comes to business, trust no one."

[simosiam]

the problem is when the money involved in a business come from farang thai people don't care too much if it get lost because don't belong from them that's why we can't never trust on them and we must be very carefully. you worry to make your family loose the face by asking for an agreement but they not worry if you loose your money. you don't have to accept them apologize but ask to them to get your money back if they are really trustworthy. westerner and thai mentality are completely different you care so much about your thai family but they care only about money. no money no honey

[Torrens54]

I agree with the suggestion of offering her a cut of the proceeds from your produce.

The bitch is probably greedy enough to go for it but make sure you get all of your plants and materials off the property as quickly as possible. You may salvage at least something.

[meom]

I agree with the suggestion of offering her a cut of the proceeds from your produce.

The bitch is probably greedy enough to go for it but make sure you get all of your plants and materials off the property as quickly as possible. You may salvage at least something.

Materials ok but the plants?

The plants are growing on land to which he has no any claim and technically belong to the bitch as well.

[giggles]

sad story

you should have bought the plot before upgrading it

a friend of mine rented a nice plot on the beach

built a restaurant and a few bungalows all official and paid for , bussines is going great

now next year his lease ends and the owner now charges 10 X the price as he paid befor cause it has all the buildings and bussines there

thai law does not let him break down the buildings to relocate cos everything build becomes property of the landowner

i told him get a good insurance and hope that lightning will strike and burn the place to the ground when his lease is about to end

common story in Pattaya ,let the dumb farang build up the business then when lease renewal is due ,jack up the price in order to grab the business ,lock stock and barrel. then put in a Thai manager to run the business

[benalibina]

I truly believe that situations which happened to the OP are not exclusively foreigneroriented. Thais will as easy do it to their own lot as well. The big difference is that thais with money not so easy fall in the trap and thst foreigners are perceived to be wealthier than thais. Which in general they are and misplaced trust will be their downfall in a scam. If the OP has read all the comments on this thread than i truly feel for him and his " rosetinted glassperception of his wife and FIL". Lets truly hope that the scam is not as closeby for him as some suggested. I however hope for his sake that he takes those suggestions serious.

[tingtongteesood]

Friendship doesnt matter to a great deal of people here when there is a load of money to be made. You turned her scrub land into greatness and she plans to cash in on your hard work. I would be severely p%&$ed off too ! She never gave a crap about you, but your plan to make the place better whilst paying her for the privelage obviously was too good to pass up. What a conniving bitch ! Sadly typical of this place.

[rene123]

It is a very sad situation when people you have thought of as friends, betray you. As I've learned the hard way when it comes to money or love, you can't really trust anyone. It is a hard lesson to learn and one that hardens you to future relationships. I've even seen it within what were formerly thought to be close family ties. Unfortunately, we now have to have legal documents written up before entering any business deal.

[AshRegister]

I wonder if the OP, his wife and family can sit down with this woman (and her son) and negotiate a fairer settlement? Surely 40 years counts for something with this woman? And it seems that none on the OP's side has behaved too rashly so far?

Just on a side note - I don't live in Thailand (have only ever visited) but this 'face' thing seems so illogical at times. OK I understand his wife loses some by trusting this woman but how come the woman doesn't 'lose face' by attempting ti rip off a supposed friend of 40 years? Surely 'face' also entails being seen as a honourable person in business?

[benalibina]

I wonder if the OP, his wife and family can sit down with this woman (and her son) and negotiate a fairer settlement? Surely 40 years counts for something with this woman? And it seems that none on the OP's side has behaved too rashly so far?

Just on a side note - I don't live in Thailand (have only ever visited) but this 'face' thing seems so illogical at times. OK I understand his wife loses some by trusting this woman but how come the woman doesn't 'lose face' by attempting ti rip off a supposed friend of 40 years? Surely 'face' also entails being seen as a honourable person in business?

In Japan you mean ?

[thatswhatuthought]

Go cut the trees down or transplant em. Move all the soil etc. The land is not your's but what u put on it is. You bought it and own it. If they kick up a fuss get a good lawyer involved that won't rip you off and it will go to court for years and she won't be able to sell the land.