Tourists... ?

[nedkellylives]

The tourists visiting Phuket have changed because tourists from a lot of countries who did come here for there holidays can no longer afford to

Its nothing to do with the cost of living or holidays here, Phuket and Bali are still the cheapest holiday destinations with decent services and facilitys

Phuket wins easily

Edited September 11, 2013 by nedkellylives

[keestha]

The tourists visiting Phuket have changed because tourists from a lot of countries who did come here for there holidays can no longer afford to

Its nothing to do with the cost of living or holidays here, Phuket and Bali are still the cheapest holiday destinations with decent services and facilitys

Phuket wins easily

Good observation. The purchasing power of Europeans and British went down. I also saw people who used to travel independently book cheap off season plane&hotel packages now.

[Phronesis]

Why should NKM do anything to improve Phuket. He is here strictly on a user pay basis. So is every other Farang in Phuket and all of Thailand for that matter.

When the Thai authorities actually give us expats some enforceable rights, maybe then we can reciprocate with some input back into our host community.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Phronesis

[keestha]

Why should NKM do anything to improve Phuket. He is here strictly on a user pay basis. So is every other Farang in Phuket and all of Thailand for that matter.

When the Thai authorities actually give us expats some enforceable rights, maybe then we can reciprocate with some input back into our host community.

You have pretty much the same enforceable rights that you normally have when living in a foreign country, an exception being the right to purchase land. Please specify what more enforceable rights they should give you in your opinion.

[NamKangMan]

Why should NKM do anything to improve Phuket. He is here strictly on a user pay basis. So is every other Farang in Phuket and all of Thailand for that matter.

When the Thai authorities actually give us expats some enforceable rights, maybe then we can reciprocate with some input back into our host community.

You have pretty much the same enforceable rights that you normally have when living in a foreign country, an exception being the right to purchase land. Please specify what more enforceable rights they should give you in your opinion.

Can you name a few of these "enforceable rights" that expats have here?

Edited September 11, 2013 by NamKangMan

[keestha]

Like the right to live and work here if you fulfill the requirements. What extra rights does a French person living in Australia have?

[NamKangMan]

Like the right to live and work here if you fulfill the requirements. What extra rights does a French person living in Australia have?

You do not have a right to live here - you are given a visa to live here.

You do not have a right to work here - you are given a permit to work here.

At anytime, these can be revoked, or the goal posts changed so you can no longer obtain one, or both of them, anymore. Eg. you need 10 million baht in the bank for 3 months for a retirement visa, and your occupation in Thailand has now been added to the list of occupations reserved for Thai's only because they are now trained up in it.

There are expats that have been here for 20 to 30 years and every year still have to get a visa and report every 90 days to immigration, despite fathering children to a Thai National and supporting an extended family. I think that's an insult.

I am not 100% up on Immigration Laws in Australia, but the biggest difference is a French person in Australian can apply for residency. I believe a foreigner in Thailand can as well, but the bar is set so so high, on purpose, that 99.9% of foreigners can not meet the requirements for Thai residency.

The French person doesn't have to report to Australian Immigration every 90 days.

The French person is given free medical in Australian public hospitals and free legal, should they require it.

You talk about "live and work." The French person can 100% own land, and the house that sits on that land, in their name. That makes the "living" part a lot more secure for them in their future years.

The French person can work, in any occupation they chose, after given residency, and is protected by industrial relations award wage laws. (mimimum wage) Just look at the exploitation of the Burmese here.

Another big difference is the French person can become an Australian Citizen, if they chose to. I believe this option does not exist for any foreigners in Thailand, but I will stand corrected if wrong on this. This means they can vote and have a say on the Governence of their country, state and suburbs, in which they live, which is important for a functional democracy.

Citizenship also means they qualify for benefits (welfare) should they lose their job, or become disabled.

The French person also does not have to denounce their French heritage once an Australian Citizen. They can be a dual national and hold a French and Australian passport.

These are the biggest differences to "enforceable rights" between the two examples you gave, off the top of my head. I'm sure there are a lot more.

As I have stated before, a 1 year retirement visa gives you no more rights than someone on a 30 day visa exemption stamp and here for a holiday, except you can get a 5 year driving licence on the retirement visa, as opposed to a 1 year driving licence. What a great benefit.

Edited September 11, 2013 by NamKangMan

[Guest]

Anyway, what have you done to try to make Phuket a better place this week?

This week I have mostly eaten yogurt. I don't think I have contributed to anything to make Phuket to become a better place.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Guest

[KarenBravo]

Anyway, what have you done to try to make Phuket a better place this week?

This week I have mostly eaten yogurt. I don't think I have contributed to anything to make Phuket to become a better place.

I recommend the Mulberry & Redcurrant yoghurt made by Dutchie. It's delicious.

[nedkellylives]

To become an Australian resident which did take 2 years living in Australia allows you to apply for Australian citizenship

There are restrictions, no criminal record, a suitable profession or investing a required amount of money in a business among others

Edited September 12, 2013 by nedkellylives

[stevenl]

Like the right to live and work here if you fulfill the requirements. What extra rights does a French person living in Australia have?

You do not have a right to live here - you are given a visa to live here.

You do not have a right to work here - you are given a permit to work here.

At anytime, these can be revoked, or the goal posts changed so you can no longer obtain one, or both of them, anymore. Eg. you need 10 million baht in the bank for 3 months for a retirement visa, and your occupation in Thailand has now been added to the list of occupations reserved for Thai's only because they are now trained up in it.

There are expats that have been here for 20 to 30 years and every year still have to get a visa and report every 90 days to immigration, despite fathering children to a Thai National and supporting an extended family. I think that's an insult.

I am not 100% up on Immigration Laws in Australia, but the biggest difference is a French person in Australian can apply for residency. I believe a foreigner in Thailand can as well, but the bar is set so so high, on purpose, that 99.9% of foreigners can not meet the requirements for Thai residency.

The French person doesn't have to report to Australian Immigration every 90 days.

The French person is given free medical in Australian public hospitals and free legal, should they require it.

You talk about "live and work." The French person can 100% own land, and the house that sits on that land, in their name. That makes the "living" part a lot more secure for them in their future years.

The French person can work, in any occupation they chose, after given residency, and is protected by industrial relations award wage laws. (mimimum wage) Just look at the exploitation of the Burmese here.

Another big difference is the French person can become an Australian Citizen, if they chose to. I believe this option does not exist for any foreigners in Thailand, but I will stand corrected if wrong on this. This means they can vote and have a say on the Governence of their country, state and suburbs, in which they live, which is important for a functional democracy.

Citizenship also means they qualify for benefits (welfare) should they lose their job, or become disabled.

The French person also does not have to denounce their French heritage once an Australian Citizen. They can be a dual national and hold a French and Australian passport.

These are the biggest differences to "enforceable rights" between the two examples you gave, off the top of my head. I'm sure there are a lot more.

As I have stated before, a 1 year retirement visa gives you no more rights than someone on a 30 day visa exemption stamp and here for a holiday, except you can get a 5 year driving licence on the retirement visa, as opposed to a 1 year driving licence. What a great benefit.

The var for residency is not high in Thailand, simply to much hassle for the expat.

Denouncing of original citizenship is also not required.

So the most important ones of your differences simply do not exist.

[NamKangMan]

Anyway, what have you done to try to make Phuket a better place this week?

This week I have mostly eaten yogurt. I don't think I have contributed to anything to make Phuket to become a better place.

Was it all Thai made yogurt, or foreign yogurt made here under licence, with profits going offshore? I hope you supported the Thai made product. :)

[NamKangMan]

Like the right to live and work here if you fulfill the requirements. What extra rights does a French person living in Australia have?

You do not have a right to live here - you are given a visa to live here.

You do not have a right to work here - you are given a permit to work here.

At anytime, these can be revoked, or the goal posts changed so you can no longer obtain one, or both of them, anymore. Eg. you need 10 million baht in the bank for 3 months for a retirement visa, and your occupation in Thailand has now been added to the list of occupations reserved for Thai's only because they are now trained up in it.

There are expats that have been here for 20 to 30 years and every year still have to get a visa and report every 90 days to immigration, despite fathering children to a Thai National and supporting an extended family. I think that's an insult.

I am not 100% up on Immigration Laws in Australia, but the biggest difference is a French person in Australian can apply for residency. I believe a foreigner in Thailand can as well, but the bar is set so so high, on purpose, that 99.9% of foreigners can not meet the requirements for Thai residency.

The French person doesn't have to report to Australian Immigration every 90 days.

The French person is given free medical in Australian public hospitals and free legal, should they require it.

You talk about "live and work." The French person can 100% own land, and the house that sits on that land, in their name. That makes the "living" part a lot more secure for them in their future years.

The French person can work, in any occupation they chose, after given residency, and is protected by industrial relations award wage laws. (mimimum wage) Just look at the exploitation of the Burmese here.

Another big difference is the French person can become an Australian Citizen, if they chose to. I believe this option does not exist for any foreigners in Thailand, but I will stand corrected if wrong on this. This means they can vote and have a say on the Governence of their country, state and suburbs, in which they live, which is important for a functional democracy.

Citizenship also means they qualify for benefits (welfare) should they lose their job, or become disabled.

The French person also does not have to denounce their French heritage once an Australian Citizen. They can be a dual national and hold a French and Australian passport.

These are the biggest differences to "enforceable rights" between the two examples you gave, off the top of my head. I'm sure there are a lot more.

As I have stated before, a 1 year retirement visa gives you no more rights than someone on a 30 day visa exemption stamp and here for a holiday, except you can get a 5 year driving licence on the retirement visa, as opposed to a 1 year driving licence. What a great benefit.

The var for residency is not high in Thailand, simply to much hassle for the expat.

Denouncing of original citizenship is also not required.

So the most important ones of your differences simply do not exist.

I wonder how many members would meet these requirements?

http://www.thaiembassy.com/thailand/thai-permanent-residency.php

Also, this thread was started yesterday. Look at the quota. Even if you did meet the requirements, the que for Thai residency will be years long before being granted. I believe they are now procesing applications submitted in 2009. :)

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/667026-permanent-residency-quota-unveiled-2013/

Also, the most important is Citizenship, not residency, and I believe a foreigner can never become a Thai Citizen. It is the bigget difference, not residency.

Edited September 12, 2013 by NamKangMan

[NamKangMan]

To become an Australian resident which did take 2 years living in Australia allows you to apply for Australian citizenship

There are restrictions, no criminal record, a suitable profession or investing a required amount of money in a business among others

Or, simply be married to n Australian man/women, hence, most, if not all, of the Thai brides of Australian men, gaining Australian residency.

However, marry a Thai women, and live in Thailand, that means nothing here.

[LivinginKata]

<snip>

However, marry a Thai women, and live in Thailand, that means nothing here.

I would not agree with that statement. There are advantages with Immigration with obtaining one year extension, and also administrative advantages if the husband/wife have a Thai business.

[NamKangMan]

<snip>

However, marry a Thai women, and live in Thailand, that means nothing here.

I would not agree with that statement. There are advantages with Immigration with obtaining one year extension, and also administrative advantages if the husband/wife have a Thai business.

You do not need to be married to have a business here. What are the advantages to being married to a Thai and having a business here, other than the Thai wife can be one of your employees, for your work permit?

Also, I'm not married to a Thai. Out of interest, what is the advantage at Immigration for you extension if you are married? Is it simply she can write you in the house book as living at an address?

[nedkellylives]

It is not easy for a Asian woman engaged or married to a Australian citizen to obtain a long term visa to enter Australia

There visa application is thoroughly checked by the Australian govt before they will be issue a tempory visa ,this was for 1 year

[NamKangMan]

It is not easy for a Asian woman engaged or married to a Australian citizen to obtain a long term visa to enter Australia

There visa application is thoroughly checked by the Australian govt before they will be issue a tempory visa ,this was for 1 year

My point is, whilst it may not be easy for an Asian women to get an Australian visa, at least she can, and many have, and then continue onto residency and some onto Australian Citizenship.

What do YOU get, as a foreigner, marrying a Thai women, and living in Thailand, possibly even having children with her? Zero!

[nedkellylives]

In australia if you marry any woman without a prenutual agreement they can claim half of all your assets which you have

worked for all of your life

Not in Thailand they can only claim on assets accumulated from the time of marrage

• I understand why a single man is better of renting but if you are in a secure relationship and you can afford it and
• intend to live here permanently why not invest in a home and everything else required for a comfortable life here

There are plenty of nice, decent Thai women but you are unlikely to meet one in a bar, all the people i know in long term relationships

did not meet there partner in a bar, most came here originally as tourists or fly in fly out workers using Thailand as there base and most

have excellent Thai partners

There is always a risk in making a commitment anywhere in the world but if you are happy to do it, it is not a problem if you can afford to ,

[Phronesis]

It is not easy for a Asian woman engaged or married to a Australian citizen to obtain a long term visa to enter Australia

There visa application is thoroughly checked by the Australian govt before they will be issue a tempory visa ,this was for 1 year

My point is, whilst it may not be easy for an Asian women to get an Australian visa, at least she can, and many have, and then continue onto residency and some onto Australian Citizenship.

What do YOU get, as a foreigner, marrying a Thai women, and living in Thailand, possibly even having children with her? Zero!

I am with you on this one NKM. Farangs in Thailand must NEVER lose site of the fact that they are here on a user pay basis ONLY. Supported half of her extended family and village...doesn't matter, married to a Thai...doesn't matter, have a baker's dozen of loog kruengs...doesn't matter, have a business (with all of the ridiculous compliance paperwork in place) and pay sh_t tins of tax and social security...doesn't matter...

All foreigners in this country....EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM...are here on a STRICTLY user pay basis.

[Valentine]

It is not easy for a Asian woman engaged or married to a Australian citizen to obtain a long term visa to enter Australia

There visa application is thoroughly checked by the Australian govt before they will be issue a tempory visa ,this was for 1 year

My point is, whilst it may not be easy for an Asian women to get an Australian visa, at least she can, and many have, and then continue onto residency and some onto Australian Citizenship.

What do YOU get, as a foreigner, marrying a Thai women, and living in Thailand, possibly even having children with her? Zero!

I am with you on this one NKM. Farangs in Thailand must NEVER lose site of the fact that they are here on a user pay basis ONLY. Supported half of her extended family and village...doesn't matter, married to a Thai...doesn't matter, have a baker's dozen of loog kruengs...doesn't matter, have a business (with all of the ridiculous compliance paperwork in place) and pay sh_t tins of tax and social security...doesn't matter...

All foreigners in this country....EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM...are here on a STRICTLY user pay basis.

Posts seem to be veering off topic. It does not matter where you live in the world or are visiting as a tourist it is user pay basis. You cannot survive without paying. As for farang husbands paying for sick mothers & dead buffaloes that is up to them. Paperwork for running a business here does not seem excessive to me & possibly much less than elsewhere. Being married with kids here gives me immense satisfaction & happiness & I am eligible to apply for residency or citizenship as I am sure many other are or in the process of doing so.

[anotheruser]

"and bought another" - good luck with that.

And another of your many times repeated statements that buying property on Phuket is doomed to failure is shot down in flames. PatongPhil obviously didn't suffer any distress with his previous property, and seems happy to have bought another.

Also, Valentine's business here isn't really impacted by tourist demographics, but resident expats who have purchased property and are undertaking property improvements (though of course everyone who's a resident expat here was initially a tourist), and as he said, a significant number of these for the past few years have been Russian.

"buying property on Phuket is doomed to failure is shot down in flames" - I have never stated "doomed to failure." Each to their own, but I don't "buy" something that i can never "own." For me, it really is that simple.

"Shot down in flames" was meant to be rhetorical rather than a direct quotation. However, PatongPhil and his family own his property, in the same way that any married couple 'own' a property that is in joint names anywhere in the world. A farang husband might not be able to have his name on Thai land deeds, but he is entitled to half of the joint assets in the event of divorce. Apologies for straying into another topic.

I really don't have any dog in this fight but.... If you can not have your name on a property it isn't the same as a married company owning under a joint tenancy anywhere in the world.

[IrishIvan]

It is not easy for a Asian woman engaged or married to a Australian citizen to obtain a long term visa to enter Australia

There visa application is thoroughly checked by the Australian govt before they will be issue a tempory visa ,this was for 1 year

 

My point is, whilst it may not be easy for an Asian women to get an Australian visa, at least she can, and many have, and then continue onto residency and some onto Australian Citizenship.

 

What do YOU get, as a foreigner, marrying a Thai women, and living in Thailand, possibly even having children with her?  Zero!

Absolute crap. Its very easy for an Asian woman to get residency and citizenship in Australia. Provided her CV doesnt include Nok and Ying bar in Kata.

[NamKangMan]

It is not easy for a Asian woman engaged or married to a Australian citizen to obtain a long term visa to enter Australia

There visa application is thoroughly checked by the Australian govt before they will be issue a tempory visa ,this was for 1 year

My point is, whilst it may not be easy for an Asian women to get an Australian visa, at least she can, and many have, and then continue onto residency and some onto Australian Citizenship.

What do YOU get, as a foreigner, marrying a Thai women, and living in Thailand, possibly even having children with her? Zero!

Absolute crap. Its very easy for an Asian woman to get residency and citizenship in Australia. Provided her CV doesnt include Nok and Ying bar in Kata.

It's not as simple as you suggest, but at least the option is possible, in a timely fashion.

The residency option exists here, but is long and protracted and there is a very low quota every year which is causing ques to be years long.

So, in true Thai style, Thai Residency is possible, but is near impossible.

In any case, residency in Australia unlocks a lot benefits - what do you get here if you become a Thai resident?

Edited September 18, 2013 by NamKangMan

[IrishIvan]

As a Thai citizen you can work as a taxi driver, buy and sell land. Not get deported for a trivial matter

[Roel]

Thai citizenship/nationality and Thai residency are two completely different things.

[NamKangMan]

As a Thai citizen you can work as a taxi driver, buy and sell land. Not get deported for a trivial matter

Don't confuse "Residency" with "Citizenship." They are very different things.

[Bikkii]

Do you live here, or holiday here and are just noticing it?

The changing demographics of the tourists to Phuket has been happening for a while now.

It's mainly Russian, Chinese and Indian package holiday makers. They buy the holiday "package" - flights, accommodation and tours, very cheaply in their home country. Then, when here, holiday just as cheaply.

The traditional western market now detour Phuket for other destinations in Thailand, or neighbouring countries.

I believe many Scandi and German tourists, and expats, have left Phuket for Hua Hin. I have been to Hua Hin, but not recently. I will visit there again soon and have a look.

In my opinion, for those who know better (the western market) Phuket does not represent a value for money holiday anymore and has become a very "tourist unfriendly" place to visit now.

Basically, other places in Thailand, and neighbouring countries, have nice beaches, bars, restaurants, cafes, hotels, adult entertainment and nightlife etc etc but without all the BS that goes with a holiday on Phuket.

True, but although I haven't been there since I was a young kid I would imagine the increase in flights from Australia (Perth, Sydney and soon, Melbourne) direct to Phuket will mean more Australian travellers than in the past and also there are now Copenhagen and Stockholm to Phuket flights operated by THAI. Years ago there were also tourists from these other markets, but it seems like Thai Smile is bringing more Indians directly to Phuket whereas previously they mostly only went to Bangkok. Of course the Russians are coming in larger and larger numbers due to direct flight connections - just like in Vietnam the Russians mostly like to go straight to the beaches rather than linger in large cities like Bangkok or Ho Chi Minh, although in Bangkok you will find a few Russian tourists at Paragon, all of whom go there on Pegas bus tours.

Perhaps the Russians and Chinese, Indians and others will eventually also go on to other destinations once they find out how it feels to get scammed in Phuket.

Many are using the Phuket International Airport as a stopover for other destinations in Thailand. They take the cheap flight to Phuket, but don't actually stay here, although, I am sure they are counted as a tourist number.

I am not sure the Russians, Chinese and Indians are getting scammed too much. They have their coach buses to transport them around, which stops the biggest rip off here, transport, and they shop in places like Big C for food and alcohol, where prices are standard, and marked.

They are simply not having the "interaction" that exposes them to be ripped off, scammed, overcharged etc etc.

All of this means, there's less money into the local Phuket economy, which unfortunately means for us expats, and other returning tourists, prices will continue to increase in the future.

Look I use to be concerned about the Russian invasion. Working in the tourism industry though has changed all of this. Like every race you get the bottom of the barrel, no country is excluded from that. From a dollar sense Russians are king. By that I mean a party of 2 will sit and devour 4 main course between them, countless drinks and still be polite and friendly in their non English speaking ability. I do not include Patong in this as we all know, this is not Thailand or even a pinch on the real Phuket. I have a new found respect for Russians with class, much prefer them than a group of my countrymen, English, yanks et al on the piss anyday.

[simon43]

I believe a foreigner can never become a Thai Citizen

Incorrect - the procedure is quite transparent and based on a points system (age, qualifications, charitable donations, Thai language ability etc).. If you're married to a Thai citizen, then you do not need to have PR to apply for citizenship. There is no annual quota and no big fee to pay.

That being said, although I score high points in most categories, there are no points awarded for divorcing a Thai citizen two times, so I'm probably not going to be able to apply in the near future...

I digress from the original topic. In my work (small hotelier - the hotel, not my height), I have seen a major change in the tourist demographics over the past 5 years or so. Whereas almost 100% of my customers used to be 'western', I now see that more than 70% are Chinese. My average guest room rate has fallen year on year, in order to secure bookings from these new markets. I am learning to speak Mandarin Chinese, since most of my guests speak no more than 3 words of English ('hallo', 'bus' and 'noodle').

Who is responsible for this change in demographics? I can't blame one single authority, but I see three reasons (in no particular order:

- The general economy/exchange rates etc

- The incompetence of TAT

- The incompetence and corruption of government and regulatory authorities in Phuket who have failed to look after the island and it's tourists

To put it bluntly, a three year old child with a blindfold could do a better job than those who are currently tasked with these responsibilities.

As an example, I recently re-applied to work as a police volunteer at the airport (I previously worked there for 3 years, before working overseas for a year).

After applying 2 months ago, I'm still waiting to be given the go-ahead to help tourists at the airport again.. It's almost as if they don't want a foreign police volunteer to 'protect' the tourists from the scams....

Simon

Edited October 9, 2013 by simon43

[NamKangMan]

I believe a foreigner can never become a Thai Citizen

Incorrect - the procedure is quite transparent and based on a points system (age, qualifications, charitable donations, Thai language ability etc).. If you're married to a Thai citizen, then you do not need to have PR to apply for citizenship. There is no annual quota and no big fee to pay.

That being said, although I score high points in most categories, there are no points awarded for divorcing a Thai citizen two times, so I'm probably not going to be able to apply in the near future...

I digress from the original topic. In my work (small hotelier - the hotel, not my height), I have seen a major change in the tourist demographics over the past 5 years or so. Whereas almost 100% of my customers used to be 'western', I now see that more than 70% are Chinese. My average guest room rate has fallen year on year, in order to secure bookings from these new markets. I am learning to speak Mandarin Chinese, since most of my guests speak no more than 3 words of English ('hallo', 'bus' and 'noodle').

Who is responsible for this change in demographics? I can't blame one single authority, but I see three reasons (in no particular order:

- The general economy/exchange rates etc

- The incompetence of TAT

- The incompetence and corruption of government and regulatory authorities in Phuket who have failed to look after the island and it's tourists

To put it bluntly, a three year old child with a blindfold could do a better job than those who are currently tasked with these responsibilities.

As an example, I recently re-applied to work as a police volunteer at the airport (I previously worked there for 3 years, before working overseas for a year).

After applying 2 months ago, I'm still waiting to be given the go-ahead to help tourists at the airport again.. It's almost as if they don't want a foreign police volunteer to 'protect' the tourists from the scams....

Simon

Isn't your hotel near the Phuket Airport, and mainly used by tourists in transit?

If that's the case, and 70% of your customers are Chinese, that's a lot of Chinese just using Phuket Airport for a cheap international flight into Thailand and then bypassing Phuket for another destination in Thailand. Eg. Krabi, Samui, Phi Phi etc.