Epic Fail?........Or A Bump In The Road?......

[itchybum]

Oh and if the OP had the gumption to start, no doubt he will finish it.

[MrWorldwide]

Buy a keyboard that mounts on the front of a walking machine.

You have spent at least 3 hours a day posting on TV since you arrived back in Thailand.

Forget all your psycho babble tosh.

Man up...exercise more and eat and drink less...simple.

I am also 47 and as fit as I have ever been in my life, despite having an incurable and chronic genetic blood disease.

Buy a surfboard and book a flight down here to Phuket. I will personally teach you to surf.

I heard the surf is relatively crap in Phuket.

Is that so ?

And only exists around monsoon season and is quite dangerous, particularly for beginners and kids.

Any of this correct ?

By the way to the other poster, Indo has excellent waves as you mentioned, but also some great beaches, exotic black sand etc, just got back from several.

Fair point re Indonesia - I guess I was spoilt by the fact that Sydney's beaches were so close to the city centre (Palm Beach and Cronulla, not so much, but the others are all quite accessible) compared to a place like Uluwatu. I know 'real' surfers view the trip as an integral part of the experience, but I always loved being able to surf before and after work in Sydney.

[theblether]

Great posts, and yes it is all down to me, I need to regroup and go again. The psychological side is where a great part of the answer is, I need to get that sorted out as pointed out by Rob.

[Jingthing]

I think the real way to loose any serious amount of weight is a complete life style change.

Worrying might be easier!

Actually, losing the weight is the EASIEST part of it.

The majority of obese people who lose weight gain it all back and MORE, often multiples times in their lives.

People who have never been obese usually don't get it ...

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2013/05/mike-huckabee-foreshadow-journey-obesity.html

Statistically, it's highly probable that the OP (nothing personal) will NOT succeed using conventional diet and exercise methods. As I'm sure he knows, IF there is still a surgical option that is medically possible for him, that affords him the very best odds of long term success. I am talking about people who are already morbidly obese. Regular obese people also have very poor odds of long term success but there is more reason for them to try other less extreme measures.

It's also worth noting that people who experience the YOYO effect, multiple large losses and gains which is more common than not among obese people. are actually generally in worse overall health than people who never lost the weight in the first place. That doesn't mean that obese people shouldn't seek solutions but it should be a red flag about how problematic the situation really is.

Whether it’s Huckabee speaking or someone else, there is rarely a discussion about weight loss that doesn’t include the words “change of lifestyle”. For me, this phrase is a red flag, a shorthand for nothing. Governor Huckabee’s words sound very reasonable because they restate the conventional wisdom. But conventional wisdom can often be just that: conventional. Few realize that it is crucial to delve into the details of “lifestyle change”. The assumption is that it means fewer calories and more exercise. But truly successful maintainers would tell you that a maintenance life is something quite different. It is a well-reasoned, controlled existence that is structured around a healthy avoidance of specific trigger foods. It involves a specifically designed and executed eating style, a reliance on supported environments, specific and consistent exercise routines, and the maintenance of extreme vigilance. This is because modern food is addictive, and it takes several layers of planning to oppose it.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Jingthing

[robblok]

I'm noy sure about the exercise mantra.

In my youth I was a professional cyclist, back then I'd burn 3~4000 calories in a day training, much more in a long race.

These days I burn 800 calaries an hour - I might burn 2500 on a long Sunday ride.

But I question how many people can realistically burn 800 calories in a hour, do that more than a couple of days a week or even have the time to do so.

A 1 hour hard training session eats two hours in preperstion warm up, warm down and showering changing afterwards - its a serious commitment of time and effort.

Get home, have a cold beer and a snack and the calories are back on again.

You are right its real hard to burn it off, but a combination of eating better foods and less plus exercise is the best way to loose weight and keep it off. Loosing weight alone is easy done by eating less (ok not that easy) but keeping it off you need to exercise both cardio and resistance. It takes a lifestyle change to really get it off.

[poanoi]

Sod lifetime starvation, sod beer starvation, sod endless exercises, sod healthy-until-death-do-me,

i just finished off sweating out 20+ kg of pure fat, and i'm good to go for a few years of healthy beer drinking and excessive tasty food intake, before another round of sweating is called for. HA !

Edited September 9, 2013 by poanoi

[Jingthing]

Sod lifetime starvation, sod beer starvation, sod endless exercises, sod healthy-until-death-do-me,

i just finished off sweating out 20+ kg of pure fat, and i'm good to go for a few years of healthy beer drinking and excessive tasty food intake, before another round of sweating is called for. HA !

Up to you, sir, but that kind of yoyo-ing is not good for overall health.

For example if you don't already have high blood pressure, that kind of pattern will likely cause it later.

I also don't think maintainers or even people losing weight should be "starving" either. That kind of feeling can't work in the long term.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Jingthing

[GirlDrinkDrunk]

Buy a keyboard that mounts on the front of a walking machine.

You have spent at least 3 hours a day posting on TV since you arrived back in Thailand.

Forget all your psycho babble tosh.

Man up...exercise more and eat and drink less...simple.

I am also 47 and as fit as I have ever been in my life, despite having an incurable and chronic genetic blood disease.

Buy a surfboard and book a flight down here to Phuket. I will personally teach you to surf.

I have to agree, i'm 46 i ride over 100km per week on my bike in bangkok and wakeboard most weekends. im 171cm and weigh about 71 kilos. i have had my troughs when it comes to fitness, but the fact of the matter is, i feel unwell when it gets past a certain point and i dislike what i see in the mirror, so I fix it.

Call me what you will , but if you expended a portion of the effort you expend seeking attention online and extolling the quality of your life, which given your condition seems unlikely, you wouldn't be such a bucket.

[Jingthing]

Buy a keyboard that mounts on the front of a walking machine.

You have spent at least 3 hours a day posting on TV since you arrived back in Thailand.

Forget all your psycho babble tosh.

Man up...exercise more and eat and drink less...simple.

I am also 47 and as fit as I have ever been in my life, despite having an incurable and chronic genetic blood disease.

Buy a surfboard and book a flight down here to Phuket. I will personally teach you to surf.

I have to agree, i'm 46 i ride over 100km per week on my bike in bangkok and wakeboard most weekends. im 171cm and weigh about 71 kilos. i have had my troughs when it comes to fitness, but the fact of the matter is, i feel unwell when it gets past a certain point and i dislike what i see in the mirror, so I fix it.

Call me what you will , but if you expended a portion of the effort you expend seeking attention online and extolling the quality of your life, which given your condition seems unlikely, you wouldn't be such a bucket.

Unless you've ever been obese, much less morbidly obese, that's like advice given from a Mormon church lady to a long term heroin addict.

[robblok]

Buy a keyboard that mounts on the front of a walking machine.

You have spent at least 3 hours a day posting on TV since you arrived back in Thailand.

Forget all your psycho babble tosh.

Man up...exercise more and eat and drink less...simple.

I am also 47 and as fit as I have ever been in my life, despite having an incurable and chronic genetic blood disease.

Buy a surfboard and book a flight down here to Phuket. I will personally teach you to surf.

I have to agree, i'm 46 i ride over 100km per week on my bike in bangkok and wakeboard most weekends. im 171cm and weigh about 71 kilos. i have had my troughs when it comes to fitness, but the fact of the matter is, i feel unwell when it gets past a certain point and i dislike what i see in the mirror, so I fix it.

Call me what you will , but if you expended a portion of the effort you expend seeking attention online and extolling the quality of your life, which given your condition seems unlikely, you wouldn't be such a bucket.

Unless you've ever been obese, much less morbidly obese, that's like advice given from a Mormon church lady to a long term heroin addict.

JT, thing is once you get where you want to go.. then you need to keep it.. an active life helps. If i see something in the mirror that i hate i fixed it. That is how i lost my 25 kg. You have seen the before picture.

How fast you do it.. up to you but the motivation should be there. For me its vanity I admit I don't ever want to look how i looked before.

[Jingthing]

Obesity is a very complex problem and it's a problem that is growing rapidly internationally. People who think it's only a simple matter of "will power" are simply totally WRONG. I think will power is but ONE factor among many.

[Darren McKenzie]

Buy a keyboard that mounts on the front of a walking machine.

You have spent at least 3 hours a day posting on TV since you arrived back in Thailand.

Forget all your psycho babble tosh.

Man up...exercise more and eat and drink less...simple.

I am also 47 and as fit as I have ever been in my life, despite having an incurable and chronic genetic blood disease.

Buy a surfboard and book a flight down here to Phuket. I will personally teach you to surf.

I have to agree, i'm 46 i ride over 100km per week on my bike in bangkok and wakeboard most weekends. im 171cm and weigh about 71 kilos. i have had my troughs when it comes to fitness, but the fact of the matter is, i feel unwell when it gets past a certain point and i dislike what i see in the mirror, so I fix it.

Call me what you will , but if you expended a portion of the effort you expend seeking attention online and extolling the quality of your life, which given your condition seems unlikely, you wouldn't be such a bucket.

Unless you've ever been obese, much less morbidly obese, that's like advice given from a Mormon church lady to a long term heroin addict.

Just checked out Morbid Obesity on the New York Times: http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/symptoms/morbid-obesity/

It says:

Common Causes

• Excessive caloric intake
• Thyroid disorders
• Lack of physical activity

Home Care

A combination of calorie restriction and exercise (when adhered to) appears to be more effective rather than either one alone. Sticking to a weight reduction program is difficult and requires much support from family members and friends.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Darren McKenzie

[Jingthing]

Buy a keyboard that mounts on the front of a walking machine.

You have spent at least 3 hours a day posting on TV since you arrived back in Thailand.

Forget all your psycho babble tosh.

Man up...exercise more and eat and drink less...simple.

I am also 47 and as fit as I have ever been in my life, despite having an incurable and chronic genetic blood disease.

Buy a surfboard and book a flight down here to Phuket. I will personally teach you to surf.

I have to agree, i'm 46 i ride over 100km per week on my bike in bangkok and wakeboard most weekends. im 171cm and weigh about 71 kilos. i have had my troughs when it comes to fitness, but the fact of the matter is, i feel unwell when it gets past a certain point and i dislike what i see in the mirror, so I fix it.

Call me what you will , but if you expended a portion of the effort you expend seeking attention online and extolling the quality of your life, which given your condition seems unlikely, you wouldn't be such a bucket.

Unless you've ever been obese, much less morbidly obese, that's like advice given from a Mormon church lady to a long term heroin addict.

Just checked out Morbid Obesity on the New York Times: http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/symptoms/morbid-obesity/

It says:

Common Causes

• Excessive caloric intake
• Thyroid disorders
• Lack of physical activity

Home Care

A combination of calorie restriction and exercise (when adhered to) appears to be more effective rather than either one alone. Sticking to a weight reduction program is difficult and requires much support from family members and friends.

No doubt but the long term success rates of that kind of conventional advice is amazingly small. So that's why there is a huge "diet" industry that profits more from people failing again and again and again for life, rather than succeeding. The truth is the only medical therapy going now with good long term results for the morbidly obese involves surgery.

Another point is that generally yes the morbidly obese are inactive but that fact fails to take into account that a large REASON they are inactive is actually their ... morbid obesity.

This video sheds light on some of the issues related to EXERCISE and obesity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltVHDWD5CUM

Also always keep in mind LOSING weight and long term success are entirely different things. Losing weight is actually really almost nothing (and actually a negative to overall health if not kept off) in importance compared to long term success.

Often diet schemes rig the books and claim high success rates in their weight LOSS results, but they fail to tell you their long term results are a horror show of nothingness.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I want to clarify that my comments about surgery are directed to the morbidly obese and super obese only, not people with typical obesity (the vast majority of obese people) and certainly not to people who are just overweight and not obese.

http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/highland/departments-centers/bariatrics/right-for-you/morbid-obesity.aspx

An individual is considered morbidly obese if he or she is 100 pounds over his/her ideal body weight, has a BMI of 40 or more, or 35 or more and experiencing obesity-related health conditions, such as high blood pressure or diabetes.

Many doctors will take the money of the not seriously obese for bariatric surgery but I think the mainstream medical view which I agree with is that such extreme measures should be reserved for extreme cases.

There are some recent less invasive, non-surgical advances in medical procedures/devices that are most likely going to be much more common in the next few years, that will be targeted at people with less serious overweight and obesity problems, even cases like 20-25 pounds over ideal weight. I don't think any of these are quite ready for prime time yet though ...

Edited September 9, 2013 by Jingthing

[impulse]

It ain't a failure until you give up.

[Jingthing]

For anyone who doubts what I've said about long term failure rates for pedestrian diet and exercise advice:

Traditional weight loss programs rely on a combination of diet, exercise, and behavior modification.

Unfortunately, even the best programs only work for a small percentage of people—like less than 5% achieve long-term success. According to the National Institutes of Health NIH, more than 90% of all weight loss program participants regain their weight within one year. And it's even more difficult for morbidly obese patients.

They often move from diet to diet, subjecting their bodies to a severe cycle of weight loss and gain known as "yo-yo" dieting.

We recommend considering surgical weight loss options for these patients. In fact, the risk of death from not having surgery is greater than the risks of surgery.

http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/highland/departments-centers/bariatrics/right-for-you/morbid-obesity/treatment.aspx

Now I fully realize many people will respond these fat people that are mostly failing have only themselves to blame. Not enough will power. Weak people. Fat pigs. We've all heard the same loaded stuff 1000 times. Well, think that if you like, but does that really address the problem, which remains and grows internationally every year? Thinking poorly about fat people and fat people thinking poorly about themselves basically does nothing to improve those failure rates.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Jingthing

[Darren McKenzie]

I want to clarify that my comments about surgery are directed to the morbidly obese and super obese only, not people with typical obesity (the vast majority of obese people) and certainly not to people who are just overweight and not obese.

http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/highland/departments-centers/bariatrics/right-for-you/morbid-obesity.aspx

An individual is considered morbidly obese if he or she is 100 pounds over his/her ideal body weight, has a BMI of 40 or more, or 35 or more and experiencing obesity-related health conditions, such as high blood pressure or diabetes.

Many doctors will take the money of the not seriously obese for bariatric surgery but I think the mainstream medical view which I agree with is that such extreme measures should be reserved for extreme cases.

There are some recent less invasive, non-surgical advances in medical procedures/devices that are most likely going to be much more common in the next few years, that will be targeted at people with less serious overweight and obesity problems, even cases like 20-25 pounds over ideal weight. I don't think any of these are quite ready for prime time yet though ...

JT.

I watched all of those videos in that other thread you started (The men who made us thin).

I thought the first episode was the best. I thought the second episode (where people with a BMI between 25 and 27 were re-classified as overweight) was a bit boring.

I remember these two issues (your comments) coming up:

1. There is a huge "diet" industry that profits more from people failing again and again and again for life, rather than succeeding.

2. Another point is that generally yes the morbidly obese are inactive but that fact fails to take into account that a large REASON they are inactive is actually their ... morbid obesity.

Following on from point 2, the documentary showed that physically active people become less active once they start putting on weight. In other words, you can't say that people are fat because they're physically inactive. You can however say that people are likely to be less active because they're fat.

Thanks again for posting those links in that other thread.

[weegee]

Absolutely, the pool is where I should be. I can't go in just now as I'm under Doctors orders re the motorcycle crash and have to avoid potential infection to my wounds. With a bit of luck I'll be in the pool later this week.

MINE?????

Ask MG about the leaf from a tree here.....wife uses it here, and it works. But don't ask me the name of it.

[ToddWeston]

For anyone who doubts what I've said about long term failure rates for pedestrian diet and exercise advice:

Traditional weight loss programs rely on a combination of diet, exercise, and behavior modification.

Unfortunately, even the best programs only work for a small percentage of peoplelike less than 5% achieve long-term success. According to the National Institutes of Health NIH, more than 90% of all weight loss program participants regain their weight within one year. And it's even more difficult for morbidly obese patients.

They often move from diet to diet, subjecting their bodies to a severe cycle of weight loss and gain known as "yo-yo" dieting.

We recommend considering surgical weight loss options for these patients. In fact, the risk of death from not having surgery is greater than the risks of surgery.

http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/highland/departments-centers/bariatrics/right-for-you/morbid-obesity/treatment.aspx

Now I fully realize many people will respond these fat people that are mostly failing have only themselves to blame. Not enough will power. Weak people. Fat pigs. We've all heard the same loaded stuff 1000 times. Well, think that if you like, but does that really address the problem, which remains and grows internationally every year? Thinking poorly about fat people and fat people thinking poorly about themselves basically does nothing to improve those failure rates.

JT we in the medical field have done a piss poor job in fighting obesity IMHO. The governments have been influenced by the agra folks to the point they don't make clear concise sense anymore - what happened to the 5 a day programme ? Our grandparents were not obese and they ate carbs sugar et al from sunrise to sunset. Over the last 20 years I have witnessed the weight loss and gain of hundreds if not thousands of patients. I've had to adjust thousands and thousands of prescriptions based on weight that would be considered toxic in some extreme cases simply because their weight has fluctuated and are on repeat prescriptions. I feel for obese people, I really do and wish there was a simple cure, however the success stories I've witnessed are always the same for both short term and long term.

The walkers and the badminton players.

I'm sure there will be a sport expert along to discuss the benefits of badminton, it's easy to learn and can be picked up at any age and can be played with toddlers to same rated players.

The walkers use the 10k step regime to maintain their weight a simple app and start counting.

Everyone should know by now a pound equates to 3800 to 4200 calories - kilo 10,000 calories - I personally think goals are for hockey. If you want to lose 10 pounds do the math 38,000 calories have to be cut or burnt. I've counselled no end of patients and this method works for some, not all but some. The problem is the goal setting it isn't a race it's a long term solution. If you feel better about yourself after a haircut and going to the toilet great it's confidence for they day to carry on.

Ingesting food is only part of the problem, if you like chips fry some wontons instead I don't believe in cutting or starving as the fade diets suggest you do. What concerns me is the lack of knowledge about fast food- go beyond the caloric intake - when you eat at McDonald's it's a corn meal, the beef is fattened on corn, the buns are made with corn starch, the fizzy pop is full of corn syrup and the chips are fried in corn oil. In my opinion you're shocking your system and the body turns this into fat. We didn't eat like this before and it's one of the millions of reasons obesity is out of control. Again it's not only the calories.

Anyone who would stoop to the name calling level isn't someone I would care to know. My brother has been seriously obese all of his life and we've tried everything -'excluding surgery (he has Down syndrome) so I've heard it all and more than most I'm concerned for his health and this obesity disease which affects millions.

To theblether you didn't fail you got sidetracked. Keep Calm and Carry On.

Edited September 9, 2013 by ToddWeston

[theblether]

Bizarre you mention badminton, I was gazing wistfully at guys playing badminton on Friday night, it was a sport I loved in my teenage years. I should have taken up a sport after the long recovery from my back injury. That was a mistake on my part.

[Jingthing]

Yes I agree the medical profession needs to do more for obese people and I expect they eventually will. Now we are in the dark ages as far as treatment options. I think the gut bacteria therapy might be the big thing coming.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[ToddWeston]

Bizarre you mention badminton, I was gazing wistfully at guys playing badminton on Friday night, it was a sport I loved in my teenage years. I should have taken up a sport after the long recovery from my back injury. That was a mistake on my part.

I'm going to start to play - the racquets are cheap as chips here and I just like saying shuttlecock.

I believe it's a good cardio and not hard on the knees and ankles as other sports - could be wrong though. Watching the guys here zip around the court like they do is certainly impressive.

A friend wore one of those calorie burner gizmos and claimed he burnt 800 calories.

[Loptr]

Obesity is a very complex problem and it's a problem that is growing rapidly internationally. People who think it's only a simple matter of "will power" are simply totally WRONG. I think will power is but ONE factor among many.

You have to burn more calories than you take in. What could be simpler? Anything else if psycho-babble.

[poanoi]

Yes, its about deficit or surplus, but the cut-off will depend on metabolism rate

[jocko]

Of course its long road but if your thinking about it it means you are still willing to walk it even slowly at first.

I am a skinny git so pretty lucky in that respect but I remember reading in one if the many studies about this subject one of the experts pointed out that many skinny people never feel that hungry and I know in my case that's true so I don't eat much but in days gone by I could sink a good few pints of Guinness and still never put on weight the only reason I don't still drink a few pints is a massive prostrate.

And you have no doubt have heard the saying .

The best exercise is pushing yourself away from the table.

Good luck and step over them Bumps that's exercise as well.

.

[Loptr]

Bizarre you mention badminton, I was gazing wistfully at guys playing badminton on Friday night, it was a sport I loved in my teenage years. I should have taken up a sport after the long recovery from my back injury. That was a mistake on my part.

You need to find an activity that is low-impact on your joints and that burns calories. As GuestHouse mentioned, cycling is a great way to burn 800 - 1000 calories per hour once you get up to speed. Cycling will also help you with balance, endurance and will lower your blood pressure over time. I ride several times a week and do 25k - 30k per ride. It's almost zen-like when you get into the zone and get your endorphins pumping.

As far as weight loss, make a plan and stick to it. Count the calories of everything you eat and keep a log. Eat small meals several times a day so you are never hungry. There are lots of free sites on the net that provide meal logging tools, along with telling you how many calories you take in based on what you eat and a breakdown on the fat, protein, carbs, sugar, sodium, etc of everything you eat. When training, I use the one on livestrong.com and track daily exercise, food / calorie intake, weight gain / loss, etc...

If you are serious about losing weight, it is truly a lifestyle change. There is no substitute for diet and exercise.

[ToddWeston]

Yes I agree the medical profession needs to do more for obese people and I expect they eventually will. Now we are in the dark ages as far as treatment options. I think the gut bacteria therapy might be the big thing coming.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

At the risk of slamming the profession I'll only say most are stuck in the diabetes "I told you so stage" and haven't the foggiest how to relate to patient concerns or needs. Also many patients suffer from the white lab coat syndrome and don't share their problems with their Doctor but come into the Pharmacy and unload - fair enough its my job and I wouldnt do it if I didn't care. When they realise a Pharmacist can often write a script they tend to open up. Some in the profession are like me though counsel patients to quit smoking today, right now or you're going to get cancer, would you allow a person to have this much control over you ??? etc whilst I sneak out back for a quickie (smoke)

I've read some data on gut bacteria and from a purely pharmacology point of view I'm almost there in agreement. But you know as I, unless pharma can make money it will take ages to get the proper funding. I'm trying to be positive about it as it could help many.

[ToddWeston]

Obesity is a very complex problem and it's a problem that is growing rapidly internationally. People who think it's only a simple matter of "will power" are simply totally WRONG. I think will power is but ONE factor among many.

You have to burn more calories than you take in. What could be simpler? Anything else if psycho-babble.

Sorry it's not as simple as that - these folks suffer a lot more than we do and deserve a little respect for trying. in some cases it's an addiction and yes we're sympathetic to alcholics and gamblers, for others it's their genetic metoblism and for some it's the crap fast food and for many it's medical and meds - whatever the case I'd like my fat friends to be around as long as my skinny friends so let's try to help instead of criticize.

[Loptr]

Obesity is a very complex problem and it's a problem that is growing rapidly internationally. People who think it's only a simple matter of "will power" are simply totally WRONG. I think will power is but ONE factor among many.

You have to burn more calories than you take in. What could be simpler? Anything else if psycho-babble.

Sorry it's not as simple as that - these folks suffer a lot more than we do and deserve a little respect for trying. in some cases it's an addiction and yes we're sympathetic to alcholics and gamblers, for others it's their genetic metoblism and for some it's the crap fast food and for many it's medical and meds - whatever the case I'd like my fat friends to be around as long as my skinny friends so let's try to help instead of criticize.

Sorry, but I don't see it that way. I sympathize with those with afflictions, whether it be drugs, alcohol, food or some other dependency. That fact remains that aside from psychological dependency, these folks have the power to change their lives. No one else is going to do it for them. Sorry if that offends you, but I would rather have someone be honest with me as apposed to blowing smoke up my skirt. Sometimes people need a rude awakening to set them on the right path as apposed to be coddled and told it's not their fault. We all control our own destiny.

[evadgib]

Here's my 2p based on my own experience:

- A workout in the sea (literally chin deep & weightless) minimizes the risk of impact probs.

- Standing at the computer (PC on a chair on a table) is better on the posture & seemingly increases the metabolism.

- Monthly Chiropractic appointments ensure back probs remain manageable.

HTH

Edited September 9, 2013 by evadgib