Epic Fail?........Or A Bump In The Road?......

[Phronesis]

Well I went on a fast so that I could get my bloods tested etc this morning. I'm looking for the whole battery of tests to be done in that regard including obviously diabetes, heart, sexual health, BP etc

I was expecting the Doctor at 10.00am, got kicked out of my room so they could clean it at 10.20, sat in the cafe, had a sip of water then was told that my tests couldn't go ahead. I didn't know that a glass of water would throw the tests out?

Anyway reschedule for tomorrow morning at 9.30.

What are they charging you?

Last week here in Phuket I had a full set of bloods done, a pee test, and a chest xray all followed up with a detailed report in English emailed out to me 2 days later. The report covered the lot, liver function, cell count, glucose, cholesterol, analysis of xray, etc.

The total cost was 990THB.

The service provider was Andalab and Xray in Phuket town.

The receptionist nurse is married to a Farang, is quite lovely and helpful, and speaks excellent English.

[Jingthing]

Of course everyone who is put into a starvation situation will eventually become extremely thin and be heading towards death. That hardly has anything to do with modern obesity. Actually, people who are fat are much better off than thin people during the initial phases of a famine situation for obvious reasons, they have food reserves in the form of fat. Our evolution happened in environments of feast and famine so gaining fat during feast times was a highly desirable trait. Now of course in the obesogenic modern world the way we are wired for fat storage is a curse.

http://www.obesogenic.org/what-are-obesogenic-environments.html

Edited September 11, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

To expand on this a little, yes, in theory, you could take fat people and put them into a camp and starve them into normal weight. But then what? What would have changed? Most all of them if "released" back into their regular lives would gain the weight back and MORE and they would all be psychologically and physically harmed by the starvation phase. Ultimately they would be medically worse off than when they started. Again, the fact that fat people can be starved to death is basically useless information in the fight against modern obesity.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Jingthing

[poanoi]

The fundamentally new weight have reset what the body see as normal, i think its a good thing.

body is always hell-bent on maintaining status quo, the new status quo is lot less weight

Edited September 11, 2013 by poanoi

[impulse]

Saw a well researched (BBC, I think) documentary a while back that pointed to a gene that wouldn't turn off hunger pangs. No matter how much someone ate, they would still be hungry. That, and personal histories with obese people make.me unlikely to chalk up obesity just to personal habits. I'm also a wing nut conspiracy believer who thinks the stuff added to food gets some of us us addicted and wanting more and more.

Some of us are lucky enough not to be allergic to peanuts and some of us will die if we eat a peanut. If genetics can make that profound a difference, who am I to judge that "uncontrollable forces" can't predispose one person to be obese and another one rail thin?

I don't struggle with cancer, peanut allergies, diabetes or epilepsy or obesity, but I certainly have compassion for the folks I've met who often do.

And it pisses me off to read the lucky ones post about how easy it is to stay thin....if only you have the willpower. Kind of like telling an epileptic to just shake it off and quit having seizures.

All that said, until they figure it out, we're stuck with personal responsibility, with some folks having a very easy time of it and others having a monumental struggle. Good luck, don't give up.

[Jingthing]

The fundamentally new weight have reset what the body see as normal, i think its a good thing.

body is always hell-bent on maintaining status quo, the new status quo is lot less weight

No, you REALLY don't get it.

A person who has been obese is basically an obese person for life BIOLOGICALLY, whether fat or thin.

Similar model to alcoholism.

The small minority of obese people who do manage to get the a good weight for the long term still face a LIFETIME struggle to keep it that way.

But in some ways harder than with booze.

Alcoholics must avoid all booze. Obese people, thin or fat, MUST eat food. Generally, every day.

Refer back to this link:

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2013/05/mike-huckabee-foreshadow-journey-obesity.html

The assumption is that it means fewer calories and more exercise. But truly successful maintainers would tell you that a maintenance life is something quite different. It is a well-reasoned, controlled existence that is structured around a healthy avoidance of specific trigger foods. It involves a specifically designed and executed eating style, a reliance on supported environments, specific and consistent exercise routines, and the maintenance of extreme vigilance. This is because modern food is addictive, and it takes several layers of planning to oppose it.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Jingthing

[poanoi]

I added some extra in that post

Edited September 11, 2013 by poanoi

[amykat]

A 1 hour hard training session eats two hours in preperstion warm up, warm down and showering changing afterwards - its a serious commitment of time and effort.

Replace an "hour of hard training" with:

5-15 minutes of any movement at all, at home in Thailand, (outside of the aircon'd rooms) where most of my activity takes place ...preparing food, brushing a dog, cleaning anything at all, etc ...

and then continue the sentence of "eats up two hours ....."

I find it really inconvenient to move around at all here!!

[poanoi]

I believe it is possible to reset the body, -a state that it will struggle to maintain,

but more importantly, it will struggle to make any changes to current state

And we can do a test if you wish, i was 108 and now about 87.

I'm by no means holding back, i eat twice as much as anyone here, day and night alike,

while picking up my fave habit of Leo beer.

So according to You: when will i be over 100 again ?

i'm betting i will stay at max 95 for at least 2 years

Edited September 11, 2013 by poanoi

[rijb]

I think the real way to loose any serious amount of weight is a complete life style change.

Worrying might be easier!

I agree. In fact, I would go further. Scare yourself everyday that you are going to die young. The medical tests are only going to tell you what you already know - you're in trouble. And you will die too soon.

I mean no disrespect. I don't know what's right for you. I just know what drives me. I want to die of old age - not self-abuse.

Best wishes.

[Phronesis]

The Blether never waited for the second marshmallow:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experiment

[poanoi]

I know for a fact that no lifestyle change is needed at all,

all it takes is a few buck for some pills, and voila ! wow, blasted away 20+ kg of fat

gimme to it babe aha aha

Edited September 11, 2013 by poanoi

[David48]

I totally agree. It absolutely has to come from the individual. You can't shame fat people into action. But even when it comes from the individual, and strongly, sorry, the reality still exists of MASSIVE long term failure rates. So more medical help is needed. I think it's coming. There won't be a magic solution but there will be BETTER and safer ways to make this MUCH EASIER. More in the line of a manageable lifetime condition like asthma that you can live with for life with some medical tweaks than it is now where the vast majority of obese adults will be obese for life except when they yoyo down temporarily. But in the here and now all we've got is the here and now. So that largely means yes calorie restriction and exercise which mostly fails long term, or for the very obese, surgery, which is no picnic. In case that wasn't clear, with this model if a person has EVER been obese and they manage to lose weight and keep it off (yes, that is rare) they should never be considered the same as a regular normal weight person. They are still an obese person waiting to happen. I think medical therapies are coming to make that not happen as often as it does now. Now sadly with any given person you can bet your money that it will happen and win most every time. Seriously, if that could be improved even to 50 percent it would be fantastic.

Sorry, but your premise is wrong. I want to agree with you, I really do as my life would be so much easier if there was a magic pill to pop but there isn't.

Why is it we have an obesity problem now? Was there an obesity problem in 1925 in the USA, Australia or EU? I don't think so. It is because we have made everyday life too easy. In the old days, people took the stairs or did some manual labour. It's that simple. If we want to eat all this fatty food, then we have to undertake the activity that will burn it off. We do have choices. I am addicted to Doritos. Should I really be eating those empty calories? No. I also like ice cream. Should I be eating so much of it? no.

No medical treatment can correct my deviant behaviour. Only I can change my behaviour.

The last time there was a medical miracle cure for obesity, it involved amphetamines and we know how well that turned out.

Great Post ...

From JT's original post ...

It absolutely has to come from the individual. ... √

You can't shame fat people into action. ... √

But even when it comes from the individual, and strongly, sorry, the reality still exists of MASSIVE long term failure rates. ... √

So more medical help is needed. ... X

There won't be a magic solution but there will be BETTER and safer ways to make this MUCH EASIER. ... XX

JT ... you talk like it's a 'medical problem' ... someone overweight needs to learn the better lifestyle.

If a doctor can give you a pill to correct the calorific imbalance ... that's not changing a person's lifestyle ... that's using drugs to temporarily change their body ... and it's wrong.

Weight Loss isn't meant to be easy.

These words comes from a man who was told yesterday by the lady taking my photo for my Thai Drivers License ... that I was too fat ... please sit back away from the camera more ...

That said ... I'm off for a wee walk ...

It's easy to talk the talk ... better to walk the miles.

As a side note, I know that JT has lost a good amount of weight recently and at a pace which seems to be sustainable ... and all credit to him ...

.

[Jingthing]

I talk like it is a medical problem because it is a medical problem.

It is not a simple medical problem. It is a complex medical problem.

The patient also makes choices that help or harm his condition, similar to many other medical problems, like diabetes.

The patient also requires education and access to choices (often determined by environment and economic situation) similar to people with other medical problems.

What it most certainly is not is a pure MORALITY problem.

For some sick reason, obese people are generally BLAMED by society for their condition in ways people suffering from other common afflictions are not. That is just cruel and unfair.

There are many medical problems that require action from both the patient and medical intervention to achieve reasonably levels of success.

In obesity, 5 percent (at most) of people who go from obesity to normal weight maintain that weight loss for 5 years, and most of those 95 percent end up even fatter than when they started and in poorer health for doing the failed weight loss, usually multiple times.

These are the people who have TRIED and succeeded in the weight loss, forgetting the obese that have given up, perhaps wisely considering the horrible odds.

What I am saying, people are totally twisting.

Of course there will be no magic pill. Of course there will be always be a need for patient action.

But the patient action that is required now for the obese is simply NOT WORKING!!!!!!

It might have worked for you, or your cousin Bertha, but 5 percent long term success rates are a massive FAILURE overall.

What I am saying is that I do reasonably expect more effective medical therapies, currently I think this is likely to involve a medical tweak of GUT BACTERIA (as it is known obese people have different gut bacteria than normal weight people).

It is not here yet. I think it is coming and it could potentially be revolutionary but it will STILL require patient action in eating differently.

I am not talking about a diet pill the way we currently think about diet pills.

BTW, for the morbidly obese (look it up) pretty much the ONLY hope is bariatric surgery. That is extreme of course.

My model of obese people being obese for life (in POTENTIAL if not in fact, but yes, sadly, usually in fact) regardless of their current weight is standard mainstream medical thinking that most all doctors who specialize in obesity will tell you too.

Not talking about just overweight people. Talking about people who have actually been OBESE. Most usually that means a LIFETIME struggle, even in the rare cases of success.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Jingthing

[poanoi]

There can actually be a medical problem, more specifically thyroid problem,

and thyroid problem can both be diagnosed and treated.

Then we have testosterone/estrogen, i know half a anastrozole pill 2 days a week

prevent a share of conversion from taking place, giving me a better balance,

as in a bit more test. and a bit less est.

Edited September 13, 2013 by poanoi

[Jingthing]

Agreed. Each patient has many individual factors. One size doesn't fit all. Thyroid of course (myself my thyroid shrunk to nothing) and sorry, yes, GENETICS is also a factor.

Before the usual suspects accuse me of encouraging obese people to not even try ... just don't. That's not what I'm saying or have ever said. I just don't think there is anything wrong with facing the reality of obesity INCLUDING the poor odds of long term success and the sadly very limited treatment options currently offered by the medical profession clearly in the face. I don't believe in sugar coating anything. I don't think that helps anybody.

As obesity is an "enemy" that most obese people are fighting and yes this is for LIFE, what is wrong exactly with knowing your enemy and knowing how strong your enemy really is?

Edited September 13, 2013 by Jingthing

[robblok]

Agreed. Each patient has many individual factors. One size doesn't fit all.  Thyroid of course (myself my thyroid shrunk to nothing) and sorry,  yes, GENETICS is also a factor.

 

Before the usual suspects accuse me of encouraging obese people to not even try ... just don't. That's not what I'm saying or have ever said. I just don't think there is anything wrong with facing the reality of obesity INCLUDING the poor odds of long term success and the sadly very limited treatment options currently offered by the medical profession clearly in the face. I don't believe in sugar coating anything. I don't think that helps anybody. 

 

As obesity is an "enemy" that most obese people are fighting and yes this is for LIFE, what is wrong exactly with knowing your enemy and knowing how strong your enemy really is? 

Genetics surely is a factor as a guy who works out a lot I know that better as most. Its easy for some and hard for others. I am gifted with a slow thyroid and metabolism. On the other hand I build muscle easier then others.

You are right about the odds because it takes a lifetime commitment and change of habits. Many are just not willing to do that. I know how hard it is often id love going for the bad foods and eating more.

Its hard but if you really want your odds go up.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Jingthing]

...

Its hard but if you really want your odds go up.

Where is your scientific evidence of that? I know you don't have any such evidence because it does not exist. You are simply pushing a moralistic argument that has nothing to do with scientific evidence. I understand you can speak to your PERSONAL experience. Basically, that means something to you only. It does not reflect any wider truth scientifically. It absurdly and unfairly places BLAME on most fat people who DO fail. So in your narrow moralistic view their will power is just not "strong" enough. What a convenient and totally simplistic explanation of a very complex problem. In my view, the old will power moralistic lecture schtick is a total crock. It hasn't done jack to bring failure rates down. Most of society ignorantly buys into that moralistic model, in effect societies are shaming/blaming fat people and we know shaming people doesn't work.

Yes, obese people, I suggest they still try but with clear eyes about what they are dealing with and a focus on HEALTH more than anything, because yoyo dieting will kill you faster than stable obesity. For the morbidly obese, the only sensible choice for most cases is surgery. In future years, yes, I expect better medical helpers that can bring LONG TERM success rates much higher. But not yet.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Jingthing

[robblok]

...

Its hard but if you really want your odds go up.

 

Where is your scientific evidence of that? I know you don't have any such evidence because it does not exist. You are simply pushing a moralistic argument that has nothing to do with scientific evidence. I understand you can speak to your PERSONAL experience. Basically, that means something to you only. It does not reflect any wider truth scientifically. It absurdly and unfairly places BLAME on most fat people who DO fail. In my view, the old will power moralistic lecture schtick is  a total crock. It hasn't done jack to bring failure rates down. 

Its logic you will have a higher chance to succeed if your motivated. Please disprove this that a higher motivation does not lead to more success.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[poanoi]

Willpower as in commitment, if you decide to commit yourself to a cause or not.

I committed myself to fundamentally transform this year,

as opposed to previous years when i committed my life to not commit.

Meaning, i worked 5 days/week and harder every time than anyone else i saw in the gym,

but in the end i overdid it and got injured as a result.

I also devoted money and discomfort in a whole variety of powders etc,

and lost 20 kg while at the same time got stronger,

just messed up beyond reason that i got injured so i couldnt meet my goal:

double my strength while burning off most fat during 1 year

Edited September 13, 2013 by poanoi

[Jingthing]

Will power is one factor. It is not the ball game. People who fail, the vast majority for the long term, had will power too. That's my point. Fat people who buy into the blame game are internalizing the hostility and ignorance of society about the complexity and difficulties of obesity. I am not a "Fat Liberationist" but I do think they are on to something on the psychological front. We need to love ourselves first.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Jingthing

[robblok]

Will power is one factor. It is not the ball game. People who fail, the vast majority for the long term, had will power too. That's my point. Fat people who buy into the blame game are internalizing the hostility and ignorance of society about the complexity and difficulties of obesity. I am not a "Fat Liberationist" but I do think they are on to something on the psychological front. We need to love ourselves first. 

So I was right your odds go up if you are committed thank you for confirming what everyone knows.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[poanoi]

 

Will power is one factor. It is not the ball game. People who fail, the vast majority for the long term, had will power too. That's my point. Fat people who buy into the blame game are internalizing the hostility and ignorance of society about the complexity and difficulties of obesity. I am not a "Fat Liberationist" but I do think they are on to something on the psychological front. We need to love ourselves first.

 

I'm blaming age, god, and nature, in no particular order,

for the fact that my metabolism is going downhill with age, and my fat goes up at the same rate.

I just recently found a way to out-wit them all, and it aint starvation.

Edited September 13, 2013 by poanoi

[poanoi]

but I do think they are on to something on the psychological front.

I think you may be right here @jingthing.

I live in constant fear of the extremely unpleasant state of being hungry and shaky,

and thus i take preemptive action to circumvent that sad state of affairs.

Unfortunately this also drive up my food intake, and even more unfortunate is that at my age,

metabolism can no longer cope, especially since i dont really leave the computer,

unless it is for eating/shitting/drinking beer

Edited September 13, 2013 by poanoi

[robblok]

I am also not always as happy as I cant just eat what I want I have to be responsible. I just had a great vietnamese meal I really think that its almost impossible (if you leave the noodles be) to get fat on that.

[theblether]

Got my blood tests back.....being a bit paranoid the first one I looked at was HIV, negative!!

Cholesterol a tad high, Uric acid the same and a thing called LDL. Been prescribed water ( plenty ) healthy Thai food and exercise.

The Doctor said my bloods re my heart are better than his, every other function is perfect and I'm nowhere near the diabetes range.

Unbelievable.

Down side? I've got a parasitic infection, 5 days of meds to get rid of it.

TV member Forethat started a topic a few weeks ago on the subject of parasitic infections, it ended up that 6 out of 6 of his drinking buddies had a tape worm I believe. Apparently it's chronic here in Thailand.......well now you can add me to the list.

The Doctor didn't use the term tape worm though, he just said parasite in the bowel. A nasty subject but maybe some more of us should be getting checked out for it? Some of these parasites can cause serious damage.

[ToddWeston]

Got my blood tests back.....being a bit paranoid the first one I looked at was HIV, negative!!

Cholesterol a tad high, Uric acid the same and a thing called LDL. Been prescribed water ( plenty ) healthy Thai food and exercise.

The Doctor said my bloods re my heart are better than his, every other function is perfect and I'm nowhere near the diabetes range.

Unbelievable.

Down side? I've got a parasitic infection, 5 days of meds to get rid of it.

TV member Forethat started a topic a few weeks ago on the subject of parasitic infections, it ended up that 6 out of 6 of his drinking buddies had a tape worm I believe. Apparently it's chronic here in Thailand.......well now you can add me to the list.

The Doctor didn't use the term tape worm though, he just said parasite in the bowel. A nasty subject but maybe some more of us should be getting checked out for it? Some of these parasites can cause serious damage.

Glad the tests came back so quickly, and now you're better able to control your intake.

Watch your uric acid, we don't want you getting gout.

Don't hate the messenger but try to avoid if possible;

Foods that are high in purine include:

All organ meats (such as liver), meat extracts and gravy

Yeasts, and yeast extracts (such as beer, and alcoholic beverages)

Asparagus, spinach, beans, peas, lentils, oatmeal, cauliflower and mushrooms

Get your water consumption up to 2 - 3 litres a day - the good news is if you google food that is low in purine it will help with your weight programmem as well. Lots and lots of good info out there on how to control uric acid.

Spot on with the parasite issue it should be checked often, can cause serious damage.

[robblok]

Got my blood tests back.....being a bit paranoid the first one I looked at was HIV, negative!!

Cholesterol a tad high, Uric acid the same and a thing called LDL. Been prescribed water ( plenty ) healthy Thai food and exercise.

The Doctor said my bloods re my heart are better than his, every other function is perfect and I'm nowhere near the diabetes range.

Unbelievable.

Down side? I've got a parasitic infection, 5 days of meds to get rid of it.

TV member Forethat started a topic a few weeks ago on the subject of parasitic infections, it ended up that 6 out of 6 of his drinking buddies had a tape worm I believe. Apparently it's chronic here in Thailand.......well now you can add me to the list.

The Doctor didn't use the term tape worm though, he just said parasite in the bowel. A nasty subject but maybe some more of us should be getting checked out for it? Some of these parasites can cause serious damage.

Did they test your testostorone and estrogen levels ? and did you test your bloodsugar ?

[impulse]

Down side? I've got a parasitic infection, 5 days of meds to get rid of it.

The Doctor didn't use the term tape worm though, he just said parasite in the bowel. A nasty subject but maybe some more of us should be getting checked out for it? Some of these parasites can cause serious damage.

Which one (parasitic infection) did you win?

Post back if you find out.

What did they prescribe?

And to Jing's point, I don't care how much commitment I show, I'm never walking onto an NBA court as a point center. Just isn't going to happen. Wasn't going to happen. Never. My nephew, who is a full 7" taller than me was a natural high school basketball star. That's the difference genetics makes. He had the genetics that made the effort pay off for him. I could have worked out dawn to dusk every day of my life and still wouldn't have been half the player he was.

I imagine it's the same with obesity. Commitment can help the odds, but to say that my nephew just wanted it more than I did is missing the main part of the equation.

The biggest difference in perception is the fact that you can see the genetic difference between me and my nephew. (Oh, and the $$$ billions spent by the weight loss industry.)

[Old Croc]

Glad the tests came back so quickly, and now you're better able to control your intake.

Watch your uric acid, we don't want you getting gout.

Don't hate the messenger but try to avoid if possible;

Foods that are high in purine include:

All organ meats (such as liver), meat extracts and gravy

Yeasts, and yeast extracts (such as beer, and alcoholic beverages)

Asparagus, spinach, beans, peas, lentils, oatmeal, cauliflower and mushrooms

Get your water consumption up to 2 - 3 litres a day - the good news is if you google food that is low in purine it will help with your weight programmem as well. Lots and lots of good info out there on how to control uric acid.

Spot on with the parasite issue it should be checked often, can cause serious damage.

If your uric acid stays too high for too long, and you stay on strong anti-inflammatory's for many years, you can develop gouty arthritis, causing every joint in your body to seize up, get stomach ulcers, have kidney failure, liver problems, and end in a wheelchair typing on Thai visa with two fingers.

Stop whinging and thank your lucky stars.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Old Croc