ATM Machines and larger withdrawals

[paz]

On the same topic, does AEON charges or not?

Yes they do, and we've been gullible believing the don't.

From my bank statements:

Oct 11th, 20,000 Bt, debited $640.28. MC exchange reports 0.031776 to USD.
Equivalent to $635.52 with no fee, $640.28 with hidden fee.

Oct 22th, 20,000 Bt, debited $648.10. MC exchange reports 0.031960 to USD.
Equivalent to $639.2 with no fee, $643.99 with hidden fee.

Nov 25th, 10,000 Bt, debited $316.77. MC exchange reports 0.031191 to USD.
Equivalent to $311.91 with no fee, $316.58 with hidden fee.

In all cases, the hidded fee conversion is closer or perfectly matches the amount debited.

I feel so stupid now, for years I've been driving the extra mile or two, and wasted lot of time to use their ATM!

Sure there are worst scams, but this is quite subtle if you think about - charge a fee and don't disclose it at the time of the transaction, while all others do.

Edited December 27, 2013 by paz

[jpinx]

For non-european visa cards the rate given by

http://corporate.visa.com/pd/consumer_services/consumer_ex_results.jsp

Is right in the middle of the range given by

http://bankexchangerates.daytodaydata.net/

so any big difference must be a hidden fee.

Unless you are withdrawing a very large amount the fee is always going to be much bigger than the difference between various banks exchange rates, so it's more interesting to reduce the effect of the fee by withdrawing the maximum possible. Yellow bank allows 30k for 150 Baht, which seems to be the best option.

[paz]

Here's another I had missed

Nov 4th, 10,000 Bt, debited $323.17. MC exchange reports 0.031844 to USD.
Equivalent to $318.41 with no fee, $323.21 with hidden fee.

Pitiful practice.

Edited December 27, 2013 by paz

[JimGant]

Oct 22th, 20,000 Bt, debited $648.10. MC exchange reports 0.031960 to USD.

Equivalent to $639.2 with no fee, $643.99 with hidden fee.

You're using the MC chart incorrectly.

First, for a MC ATM transaction on Oct 22nd, you'll get the advertised MC rate for Oct 21st (it will change over at about 10:00PM Thai time).

Second, you need to use the USD as the base rate (as that's what your card is denominated in).

So, looking at the MC chart for Oct 21st, with USD as the base rate, you would have gotten 30.8592 baht for each dollar -- assuming no fees. Divide 20,000 by 30.8592, and it would have cost you $648.10. Exactly what you got -- the advertised completely fee free rate from MC.

So, keep driving the extra mile or so for Aeon -- unless the gas costs more than 180 baht.

[paz]

You're using the MC chart incorrectly.

First, for a MC ATM transaction on Oct 22nd, you'll get the advertised MC rate for Oct 21st (it will change over at about 10:00PM Thai time).

Second, you need to use the USD as the base rate (as that's what your card is denominated in).

So, looking at the MC chart for Oct 21st, with USD as the base rate, you would have gotten 30.8592 baht for each dollar -- assuming no fees. Divide 20,000 by 30.8592, and it would have cost you $648.10. Exactly what you got -- the advertised completely fee free rate from MC.

So, keep driving the extra mile or so for Aeon -- unless the gas costs more than 180 baht.

Thank you, I've done the math for the four cases above and indeed it match the method you have explained. In fact I wasn't sure myself what the correct base currency was.

I'm relieved not for whatever saved charge, but for not have been a complete idiot insisting on AEON all this time.

Still we aren't sure if the fee stated on their website is simply "waived" or it is something new ?

[Pib]

Used my Schwab no foreign transaction fee debit card three times so far this month...on 7, 14, and 24 Dec....just finished checking my Schwab account and the Visa exchange rate webpage and the charge hitting my Schwab account matched the Visa exchange rate to at least the 4th decimal place. Additionally no separate charge, like a Bt150 (approx $5) appeared on my account....and no fee appeared on the AEON ATM display during withdrawal. Also just checked my other no foreign transaction fee debit card, a State Farm bank debit card, and same story on three withdrawals this month---exchange rate exactly matched Visa's and no separate charge.

AEON ATMs now have a Bt20K limit per withdrawal...been that way for the last 3-6 months...all the AEON ATMs didn't shift to the lower limit on the same day....it took AEON a month or so to adjust all their machines. If your card(s) has a higher daily limit, like both my cards do, you can just slide the card in a second time right after the first withdrawal to get more if your card limit allows. I've done that a couple times this month also since each of my cards have a $1,000 daily limit (approx Bt32K)...after getting Bt20K on the first withdrawal I would slide the card in a second time to get another Bt10-12K.

[Pib]

For non-european visa cards the rate given by

http://corporate.visa.com/pd/consumer_services/consumer_ex_results.jsp

Is right in the middle of the range given by

http://bankexchangerates.daytodaydata.net/

so any big difference must be a hidden fee.

Unless you are withdrawing a very large amount the fee is always going to be much bigger than the difference between various banks exchange rates, so it's more interesting to reduce the effect of the fee by withdrawing the maximum possible. Yellow bank allows 30k for 150 Baht, which seems to be the best option.

I know the second link provided above says just use the TT Buying Rate to determine a bank's ATM rate, but it's a totally false statement--the exchange rate a person gets is the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate depending on their card adjusted for any foreign transaction fee the home country bank may apply on the card. I expect the web site makes that statement just to keep people coming to the site to up their view count, see ads, etc., due to this misconception out there that each bank sets it own ATM exchange rate. The site is accurate for the rates quoted, such as the TT Rate, but the site provides no ATM rates since most banks use the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate...the banks don't have their separate ATM rates except for some who offer DCC transactions.

About the only time banks do set their own ATM rate is if a person is dumb enough to accept a bank's Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) exchange rate if offered during the withdrawal (that they probably won't called DCC but some other warm, fuzzy term to make you feel good processing the transaction in your home country currency). Accepting DCC will end up in a 3-5% lower exchange rate and if your debit card also charges a foreign transaction fee you'll still most likely get hit with that fee simply because it was a foreign transaction although your home country bank was not involved in the currency conversion. DCC bad, very bad for the customer; DCC good, very good for the bank.

I routinely withdrawal funds from AEON ATMs and twice from Bangkok Bank ATMs using my two different Visa no foreign transaction fee debit cards and the exchange rate given/hitting my account has always matched to 3 to 6 decimal places the Visa exchange rate. And on those two occasions I used a Bangkok Bank ATM for the withdrawal I also checked their TT rate which was approximately 0.25% different that the Visa rate...and as mentioned, those withdrawals from the Bangkok Bank ATM matched the Visa rate to 3 to 6 decimals points.

As mentioned I expect that web site makes that statement just to keep people coming to the site to up their view count, view ads, etc.,..plus they know the misconception is out there that each bank sets it own ATM rates and don't use the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate...and the TT Buying Rate is almost always plus or minus 0.50% of the Visa/Mastercard rates for a no foreign transaction fee card and usually plus or minus 0.25% which does make using the TT Buying Rate a fairly close estimate of what the Visa/Mastercard rate is when a person don't want to go to the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate pages to get the actual/exact rate.

[jpinx]

I agree with you -- the TT rate is for transfers and not ATM transactions. It was too good to be true!

So - the answer is still to avoid the fees rather than shop for better rates -- unless you are taking out very large sums.

In the absence of Aeon ATM's the best option appears to be over the counter in a bank, but I'm not sure if that carries any other penalty with Visa.

[Pib]

I agree with you -- the TT rate is for transfers and not ATM transactions. It was too good to be true!

So - the answer is still to avoid the fees rather than shop for better rates -- unless you are taking out very large sums.

In the absence of Aeon ATM's the best option appears to be over the counter in a bank, but I'm not sure if that carries any other penalty with Visa.

It won't from the Visa/Mastercard network assuming a person has a no foreign transaction fee card where the card-issuing bank is absorbing the Visa/Mastercard currency conversion fee in the 0.15 to 1.0% ballpark. Now the card-issuing/home country bank may but I doubt it for an over the counter withdrawal (a.k.a., cash advance...not to be confused with a credit card cash advance that almost always incurs a fee by the card-issuing bank). All depends on the rules/fees set by the "card-issuing" bank.

A person should get the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate regardless of whether it's an ATM or over the counter withdrawal. Of course this assumes a Thai bank will do an over the counter withdrawal....some won't and will just point you to their ATM instead because then they collect the Bt150-180 foreign card fee. From posts I've seen that seemed creditable (i.e., the poster knew exactly what fees, if any, applied to his home country debit card and then checked the charge hitting his account and the associated exchange rate) no Bt150-180 withdrawal fee should be applied for an over the counter withdrawal and they got the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate...and the Thai bank didn't charge any fee (not to imply some may not charge a fee).

Now both of my no foreign transaction fee bank debit cards have the same daily limit for cash withdrawals, regardless of whether it's an ATM or over the counter withdrawal...says so in the card docs they sent me and I also confirmed later on by contacting the banks. But there are cards out there that allow a much higher over the counter withdrawal compared to their ATM withdrawal limit....and once again, when I say over the counter withdrawal it's not to be confused with a debit card "purchase" transaction which usually has a much higher limit compared to an ATM/over the counter cash withdrawal.

Many banks/companies issue debit and credit cards---and they all have different policies and fee structures....a person really needs to know the polices and fees associated with "his card." I've read some many posts where folks are blaming Thai banks, AEON, and/or Visa/Mastercard for fees when usually it really fees being charged or not absorbed by the home country card-issuing bank.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Sorry for digging this out, but has anybody recently checked their bank statement after withdrawing from AEON?

http://www.aeon.co.th/aeon/af/aeon/unsec/custSrv/custServicesChannel.do?channelId=-9294&selectedChannels=-8758,-8757,-9294〈=en

Seems like they changed it just like Citibank recently.

Also, is the 20k limit at all banks still in effect?

Oh and hi!

Yes, Ive checked in great detail over long periods of time...

And NO! Aeon doesnt charge any flat or % fees for the use of their ATMs.

But lots of home country banks do charge those fees, and cardholders are often blissfully ignorant of them, until...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Re counter withdrawals, Ive noticed lately that more U.S. banks are adding specific counter withdrawal fees, perhaps because folks there have taken to using them for the same reason as in Thailand...to avoid rising ATM fees.

But the counter fees language Ive seen has always been broad, not specific to foregn vs. domestic use. So Ive always wondered if one of those banks would assess a double fee for foeign use -- first their counet withdrawal fee, and then their foregn currency fee, which most U.S. banks have these days...

But I never do counter WDs or use FCF cards, so no way to know.

[bernard75]

Sorry for digging this out, but has anybody recently checked their bank statement after withdrawing from AEON?

http://www.aeon.co.th/aeon/af/aeon/unsec/custSrv/custServicesChannel.do?channelId=-9294&selectedChannels=-8758,-8757,-9294〈=en

Seems like they changed it just like Citibank recently.

Also, is the 20k limit at all banks still in effect?

Oh and hi!

Yes, Ive checked in great detail over long periods of time...

And NO! Aeon doesnt charge any flat or % fees for the use of their ATMs.

But lots of home country banks do charge those fees, and cardholders are often blissfully ignorant of them, until...

Thx for the confirmation.

And sorry for not posting if i use a Maestro("ATM") or CC. I only use CCs.

My bank fortunately doesnt add any fees or currency conversion scams on top of what VISA does , in fact it would even reimburse me for the 150THB fee if i write to them.

Just too lazy to go through the hassle.

Edited December 28, 2013 by bernard75

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Usually, anytime someone uses a credit card to make an ATM cash withdrawal, these's going to ba a fee or fees assessed...

Not by Aeon, but rather, by the credit card issuer.

There are some exceptions to that, but not many.

[bernard75]

Yeah, the difference between the interchange exchange rate and VISAs or MCs exchange rate, but that should be it.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

No, I'm talking about the fact that most U.S. credit card providers (and those elsewhere) typically will allow ATM cash advances using those cards, but typically start charging interest from the day of the withdrawal (no 30 day grace period), and the interest rate for cash advances may often be considerably higher than the normal purchase APR.

And that's leaving aside the fact that most U.S. credit card providers also charge a foreign currency fee (2-4%) for all purchases and cash withdrawals made abroad.

Withdrawing cash from a Thailand ATM with a foreign credit card is rarely going to make economic sense

[onewhowalkswithbuffalo]

Take your passport to a bank, and withdraw over the counter can get anything upto 250,000 baht

Upto 250.000?

The highest amount I have withdrawn was 21 million. And I walked into a Kasikorn Bank at Siam Paragon and withdrew 1.5 million without pre-warning.

The most I have ever pulled out of an ATM was 200k, it was only a matter of setting the limit over the phone. It took a while because you have to withdraw in 20k chunks...

Your such a champ, no really you are

[gdhm]

HI all,

Very intersting thread Thanks

As Aeon has joined the rest and are now charging ฿150 per ATM transactions (since mid Feb 2014) I am seeking best method for cheapest cash withdrawal of my pension from my UK Nationwide Flexplus Account (switched form Flex to this as only has a fixed Monthly fee of £10 and NO 2% currency conversion fees + ATM £1 fixed withdrawal fee per transaction. I was great when Aeon ATMa didnot charge Now I have decisons tro make and would like to ask other NW Visa Debit Card holders a few questions please (or anybody who knows the answers).

USEFUL INFO for NW users who may not know:

Nationwide use Visa (EUROPE) published Exchange rates found on http://www.visaeurope.com/en/cardholders/exchange_rates.aspx. for overseas ATM cash withdrawals see bottom left of NW page http://www.nationwide.co.uk/current_account/managing_your_account/using-your-cards-abroad.htm. IMPORTANT NOTE: the Visa Rates they use (AS ALL European Banks for Visa) is from Visa EUROPE (www.visaeurope.com) and NOT the main VISA Worldwide (www.visa.com). This is important to know because the Rates are different (Visa Worldwide being BETTER) but irrelevent to European Banks Visa based cards be they Visa or Visa Dedit).

Knowing where rates come from and what they are before ATM withdrawal is extremely useful because you can look at the rate in the morning and know EXACTLY what the rate will be for the WHOLE DAY. (Note: The rate published on a Saturday will apply for Sat, Sun AND MONDAY and European Hols (i.e Xmas) seem to retain ER ratespublished immediately before the hol). to date I have always used ATM withdrawals based on the daily published Exchange rates (hence why I have not used over the counter todate as I have read the transaction may not go though the day of withdrawal and therefore I cannot be sure what the rate used will be (and I was not paying any fees via Aeon ATMs (until now).

I beleive NW round to 5 decimal places and Visa (Europe) are 6 (so very rarely there MAY be a penny difference). ONLY once in 2 years have I had a different rate from that published (and that was a tiny amount in my favour - still have no idea the reason).

My questions please:

Over-the-Counter UK Visa based DEBIT cards.

1. Do the Thai banks charge any fees and if so how much for a single transaction:

2. Can anybody advise Bank, date, Exchange Rate they got over-the-counter using an NW Flex of FlexPlus Visa DEBIT card.

I am very interested in knowing whether the Thai Bank used its own rates (maybe T/T) or the OFFICIAL Nationwide (Visa - Europe) rate WHICH IS WAHT I FEEL THRY SHOULD BE USING and how many days it lootk the bank to process it. If I know the ER and date of withdrawal then I can look up the historical Visa (Europe) daily rates (up to 2 years) to see how long the bank took.

3. Banks that allow extra ATM withdrawal levels (subect to card issuers limits) seem to be Krungsri ฿30,000 & Bangkok Bank ฿25,000 per SINGLE TRANSACTION?

Can anybody confirm this is still currently the case, and whether if these banks use their OWN Rates for over-the-counter withdrawals or do they use the overseas Card holders' rates (in MY case Natiowide use (Visa (Europe) rates?

4. I have seen advised by one user on another Site I beleive that when recently they went to use an Aeon ATM, just after Aeon's introduction of a fixed fee,.and were met with its new "there will be a ฿150 fee..... do you wish to proceed" (or words to that effect). The user decided to cancel but said in his post Aeon STILL charged his bank the ฿150 even htough no withdrawal had been made. I find that astonishing and am assuming it was a new setup glitch hopefully quickly sorted out by the Aeon ATM programmers.

My question is. Has anybody experienced similar with ANY Thai Bank ATM (inculding Aeon) after cancelling ther withdrawal? If som which Bank (so I can be cautious)?.

I am not so bothered as I do not uusally cancel BUT if I realize I have made a mistake witht ehamount being asked for OR more likley the ATM is low on funds and says I can only have a smaller amount than I wish then, like anybody, I would cancel and use another ATM.

Thanks everybody

[Pib]

1. The local bank shouldn't charge a fee. In the credible posts I've read and my own experience in using my U.S. credit card to do a cash advance there will be no fee; however, it appears SCB will only do the counter withdrawal using their DCC rate for "credit" card cash advances which is approximately 3% lower than Visa/TT Buying Rates. Avoid SCB for credit card counter withdrawals...can't speak to the exchange rate SCB uses for debit card cash counter withdrawals. See the notes at the bottom of this SCB webpage regarding "credit" card cash advances....and of course you would then have any cash advance fees your card issuing bank may apply.

2. You will see various banks are receptive to both debit card and credit card counter withdrawals and some are only receptive to credit card counter withdrawals for whatever reasons. My own experience weekend before last at a Bangkok Bank branch here in Bangkok was "no can" for a debit card, but "can" for a credit card. I attempted a counter withdrawal Saturday before last using my U.S. "debit" card at the branch and it was simply a "no can/will do"; but they said "can do" with credit card. So I went back the next day and did a counter withdrawal for Bt50K no problem using my no foreign transaction/no cash advance fee PenFed credit card. But others have posted they had no problem doing a cash advance at their Bangkok Bank branch using their debit card.

3. Your are correct...and I checked the TMB ATM just today in response to anther thread/post of similar subject...they allow Bt30K per transaction. You will get Visa/Mastercard exchange rate, unless you visit a SCB branch with a credit card in hand.

4. Totally disagree with your friend...I've tried two AEON ATMs after AEON apparently implemented its system-wide and in both cases the fee was displayed...do you want to proceed or cancel...I cancel....and no charge hits my account. However, but, if a fee is hitting his account it must be because his "card issuing" bank is applying the fee because some banks do charge a fee just for an inquiry-type action occurring and a cash withdrawal which was cancelled may be appearing as such to his card-issuing bank...it's not AEON.

[gdhm]

Thanks for your helpful reply Pib ,

I am VERY happy (and not surprised to read your answer 4) as that is what I would expect. (ps not my friend but an unknown poster.

Maybe the poster experienced a one off glitch or ATM malfunction. Not Unknown, as I experienced a serious one Xmas Day 2012 when my usual Aeon ATM refused my ฿10,000 request with "refer to your banker". When I got home I checked my on-line account (always check) and I found the Aeon ATM had processed the ฿10,000 debit to my account - INCREDIBLE MACHINE FAILURE with an official ON SCREEN message rejecting my request, paying no Baht to (of course) but actually processing the full debit as if the transaction had completed normally. I cannot deny that caused me money shortage issues (being Xmas and I am NOT well off) as although my bank re-credited my account it said Aeon could challenge that for up to approx 6 weeks and the only way I could be sure they would not, was when the time period expired in Feb 2013 if they had not done so. How nice for erroneous banks whose ATMs make errors to get 6 weeks challenge which they usually (I was told) let expire and very seldom contact the users bank confirming that their ATM was in error and that they would not be challenging.

I am posting here Info on a couple of my own questions that I think I have found answers (based on an ATM withdrawal I made today) for you, as you kindly replied to my enquiry, and for other ATM users (especially UK's Nationwide Building Society FlexPlus and Flex Visa DEBIT card owners)

Today my pension was credited to my FlexPlus account and as I needed cash I decided to try some of my own questions.

Yesterday I found out that Nationwide has recently increased its daily ATM withdrawal limit to £500 (from £300). I had never tested the new limit as I was totally unaware of the increase. I cannot find exactly when it was increased but I note it was certainly in effect on 20 Dec 2013. The Increased limit applies to FlexPlus, Flex & FlexDirect cards Refer Nationwide BS info links I found:

http://www.nationwide.co.uk/search/DisplayArticle.aspx?article=1087

and

http://your.nationwide.co.uk/your-voice/service-improvements/Pages/ATM-withdrawal-limits.aspx

I used my Nationwide FlexPlus Visa Debit card and decided to test a Bangkok Bank ATM to test:

1) The new Nationwide daily withdrawal limit of £500 GBP

2) The reported ฿25,000 single ATM withdrawal capability via Bangkok Bank ATMs

3) What Exchange Rate is used (a Bangkok Bank ER or the official Nationwide (Visa EUROPE Exchange Rate)

My Findings:

1) YES the Nationwide limit has been raised and works with my FlexPlus Visa DEBIT card (I debited £466 approx.)

I was afraid maybe there would be a Thailand lower limit as NW seem nervous of some countries (Thailand being one of many I was told in thre past) .

2) YES I was able to make a single Cash withdrawal transaction of ฿25,000 in ฿1,000 Baht notes

by selecting "other" when offered lower fast cash pre-set amounts. I was asked if I accepted the ฿150 fixed ATM fee. I replied "yes" and the consequential ATM receipt shows my NW Account has been debited with ฿25,150 as expected.

3) YES Bangkok Bank seems to use Nationwide's Visa Europe GBP - THB Exchange Rate (published on the Visa Europe website).

I know this because I had looked up today's Visa Europe GBP - THB Rate before I went out to withdraw cash. When I came home I checked my Nationwide FlexPlus balance (I have on-line access - and can see immediately the amount debited to my account as I am shown my "Account Balance" and "Usable Balance". The difference, of course, is the cost of the ฿25,150 Bangkok Bank ATM Cash Withdrawal being processed (unless another debit is being processed on ther same day - in my case extremely rare, if ever).

Even though I will not see the full transaction and Exchange rate details until tomorrow (a day later) it is unimportant for my purposes, as all I have to do is divide ฿25,150 by the "difference".to know the ER used. In my case it matches the Nationwide (Visa-Europe) published Rate for today. This is VERY GOOD NEWS as I now know I have some control of when I think it a good day & rate to withdraw future amounts and as Bangkok Bank allows me to withdraw ฿5,000 more in a single transaction compared to most Thai Banks, that will save me ฿150 each month. OK not large, but I'd sooner have it than a Bank having it (and it all adds up).

I do not yet have any confirmed info whether Bangkok Bank use the Nationwide BS (Visa Europe) Exchange Rate for "over-the-counter" debit card transactions.

I have been informed in the past Pib (as you say you have) that NW Visa Debit cards ARE accepted by Bangkok Bank. A couple of (a local) Forum members have posted that they were charged a single ฿150 fee (same as I ATM W/D fee) BUT nobody has advised me what Exchange Rate was used with transaction date for me to check if their transactions used the ER of the same day they did their ""over-the-counter" transactions.

I think the vast majority of Nationwide Debit card users do not realize Nationwide use published daily Visa Europe Rates which they can check before ATM withdrawals (as most refer to the ATM Bank's published T/T rates as being a near approx.). I only found out by a lot of trial and error. Only recently do I believe Nationwide published on their site that they use Visa Europe Rates (either that, or I cannot read )

Thanks again for you help and info Pib.

Edited February 25, 2014 by gdhm

[onewhowalkswithbuffalo]

AEON in MBK now charging for withdraws

[Stuart21]

Krungsri supposedly allows 30 notes - 30,000 baht / withdrawal - tho appears to be having some issues at the moment -