The Red Bull heir and inequality in Thailand

[Considered Opinion]

Does it bother you if the victim family is happy, very happy with the out of court settlement?

I don't think that should be part of the question. Thai people who are not "hi-so" feel that hi-so people are better than them and it's quite OK for the police officers children to be brought up on the out of court settlement, and it may well be so. The police officer may have been a bad father, we don't know.

The issue is that Thai people accept the status quo, don't ask for change (normally), and continue to elect the super-rich to lead them and "guide" them in their ordinary, poverty-stricken lives, just because they are hi-so and must know better than the poorly educated masses. Just remember back to the Taksin promise of a buffalo for every family. I well remember discussions with farmers in my village who were looking forward to getting a buffalo, irrespective every one of them had an iron buffalo already. Irrespective they didn't have enough land to feed a buffalo and grow rice on their 1 rai plot. Irrespective there weren't enough buffalo in Asia, to give one to each family.

They even understood my point. But they all went out, got their 300 Bt at the booth, and voted for Taksin, and now, of course, his sister.

Education is the greatest enemy of the Thai Status Quo.

[Hobiecat]

Good to see a foreign news paper has finally got a hold of this!

[Gummigalgen]

Thailand is not so bad. In Holland the then famous footballer Patrick Kluivert was speeding in Amsterdam, killed 1 of a couple in a borrowed (and poorly insured) BMW M3. He walked away with it too.

[Gummigalgen]

Thailand is not so bad. In Holland the then famous footballer Patrick Kluivert was speeding in Amsterdam, killed 1 of a couple in a borrowed (and poorly insured) BMW M3. He walked away with it too.

http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2844/Archief/archief/article/detail/431138/1996/05/15/Rechtbank-acht-Ajax-vedette-schuldig-aan-dodelijk-ongeluk-Patrick-Kluivert-krijgt-werkstraf.dhtml

He had to work 240 hours = 6 weeks (to be finished in 1 year) on projects like gardening, maintenance blablabla.

It was a red convertible M3 and NOT insured. And the Dutch; always pointing finger to those 'terribly corrupted countries as Thailand'. Their Embassy in Bangkok is corrupt, the law system in Holland is corrupt.

[RogueLeader]

Thailand is not so bad. In Holland the then famous footballer Patrick Kluivert was speeding in Amsterdam, killed 1 of a couple in a borrowed (and poorly insured) BMW M3. He walked away with it too.

http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2844/Archief/archief/article/detail/431138/1996/05/15/Rechtbank-acht-Ajax-vedette-schuldig-aan-dodelijk-ongeluk-Patrick-Kluivert-krijgt-werkstraf.dhtml

He had to work 240 hours = 6 weeks (to be finished in 1 year) on projects like gardening, maintenance blablabla.

It was a red convertible M3 and NOT insured. And the Dutch; always pointing finger to those 'terribly corrupted countries as Thailand'.

Are they? When?

Their Embassy in Bangkok is corrupt, the law system in Holland is corrupt.

Careful, now.

[scorecard]

Does it bother you if the victim family is happy, very happy with the out of court settlement?

sure they paid of the family and the family is happy

but how can you be happy that a person who killed a cop, drives recklesssly, drives under the influence ca run free ... who says he will not do it again?

Well is the policeman's family happy?

An earlier report says they were given 3Million Baht by the red bull family. Hardly a fortune no matter how you look at it, and hardly appropriate compensation for the death of anybody. Perhaps there was a second payment, I'm not sure on that point. Anybody have any info. on this?

Some quite interesting points in this case:

1. Normally the cops go all out for a conviction and hard sentence when one of thee one is injured or killed (anywhere in the world). In this case ?

2. A senior, it seems, tried to cover the whole thing up. If true it makes point 1 above seem questionable in this case. Interesting indeed.

[Thai at Heart]

I think the most shocking part of this is that he killed a cop. Normally, it's a huge thing to kill police, even accidentally but here it seems to be a non event. Amazing.

The amazing thing is that someone thinks that a kid who s grandad owns a company is that important. Who is this kid? In reality, a complete no one.....

[cosmont]

Life value in THailand is cheap, especially for those Hiso... No justice in Thailand !

[DekDaeng]

Does it bother you if the victim family is happy, very happy with the out of court settlement?

Yes, but to protect everybody else, there must also be an 'in court' settlement - i.e. 10 yrs jail for manslaughter, etc.

Or maybe the public could file criminal complaint?

[khunken]

Whether the policeman's family is satisfied with whatever payment they received is irrelevant. Plus we don't really know what their feelings are & it's not our business.

The problem lies with the public prosecutors office. Allowing a whole year to lapse without bringing any charges is criminal in itself. It's not hard to believe that even more money has changed hands here. Will charges be brought against the senior officer who tried to pervert justice and his willing scapegoat? Unlikely.

Oh I expect he will come back just like Chalerm's son. I also expect that witnesses will suffer the same fate and there'll be some sort of cock & bull reason that the whole thing was just an accident. They surely can't use the fictitious perp again.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Does it bother you if the victim family is happy, very happy with the out of court settlement?

sure they paid of the family and the family is happy

but how can you be happy that a person who killed a cop, drives recklesssly, drives under the influence ca run free ... who says he will not do it again?

Well is the policeman's family happy?

An earlier report says they were given 3Million Baht by the red bull family. Hardly a fortune no matter how you look at it, and hardly appropriate compensation for the death of anybody. Perhaps there was a second payment, I'm not sure on that point. Anybody have any info. on this?

Some quite interesting points in this case:

1. Normally the cops go all out for a conviction and hard sentence when one of thee one is injured or killed (anywhere in the world). In this case ?

2. A senior, it seems, tried to cover the whole thing up. If true it makes point 1 above seem questionable in this case. Interesting indeed.

Actually, Scorecard, as I think you know, in ordinary Thai circles, 3 million baht would be considered A LOT of monetary compensation for an ordinary person's death.

People get killed in criminal traffic accidents all the time, and the compensation amounts reached on the side between the parties often can be just a fraction of the 3M received by the policeman's family. Of course, in this case, the 3M isn't even couch change for the suspect's family.

By comparison, in the Don Muang tollway van crash, the insurance company involved supposedly paid out just 900,000 baht to the families of those killed in compensation and for hospital and funeral expenses.

I don't know the policeman's official salary in this instance (leaving aside whatever money he might have been getting on the side). But if, hypothetically, he was earning a 30,000 a month salary, the settlement would cover more than 8 years of earnings. And his official salary was probably less than that. Plus, I'd hope the RTP has some financial benefit package for the families of officers killed in the line of duty.

I'm not trying to defend the outcome by any means... The whole thing stinks. But from an ordinary Thai's perspective, they're probably thinking the family came away pretty well off, at least in financial terms.

If you or I had been the driver of that car, you can darned well know we wouldn't be taking a vacation in Singapore right now.

Edited September 13, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[gerry1011]

Does it bother you if the victim family is happy, very happy with the out of court settlement?

So the law of the land, the relevant punishments, applicable (in theory) to all citizens should be all forgotten, just pay up and all forgotten?

And what about those who break laws (e.g. break a traffic law, and someone gets killed) and they have no money?

This approach makes a total mockery of the whole purpose of the law.

Punishment appropriate to the case should be there, as apunishment, and as a deterrent to other to not break the said law.

Compensation is a different, but important, matter, and should also be in the picture.

But compensation simple overriding the law is not acceptable, ever.

I think you are right in what you say, especially when you say that a punishment should serve as a deterrent to others not to break the rules.

However, I am pretty sure that if one day you find yourself involved in such an accident you would be very happy to get rid of a few millions in order to avoid jail. If you have a few spare millions, of course.

You have no money, you go to jail. You have money, you compensate the victim, pay the funeral and try to apologize the best you can. In one case you lose some of your freedom, in the other case you lose money. Both are punishements.

Accidents can happen, and in case of accidents I believe that the compensation system is not bad. It makes both sides "less unhappy".

In this particular case (as well as many other cases, unfortunately), what I have great difficulties to accept is that the driver fleed the scene of the accident. That deserves extra punishment.

[marell]

Does it bother you if the victim family is happy, very happy with the out of court settlement?

The victim's family had no choice in the matter. They didn't dare to refuse one of the most powerful families in Thailand; one capable of wreaking terrible vengence if denied their way. If the victim's family hadn't smiled and showed subserviant cooperation, groveling thanks and overwhelming "happiness" they would have been ruthlessly crushed.

The news report was that the Yoovidhya clan paid out three million Baht but how much of that actually got to the victim's family? After all the 'negotiators' amd 'mediators' and 'agents' took their cut I'd wager the family didn't get anywhere near three million Baht. To suggest otherwise ignores reality.

Edited September 13, 2013 by marell

[Curt1591]

It just goes to show what a corrupt country this is,two systems

if you have enough money or influence you can get away with

murder, its not even an isolated case,and not the first Policeman

to die at the hands of the privileged ,that case too was unsolved

even though everyone knew who the perpetrator was.

Regards Worgeordie

To be fair you can find a two teir system in all country's.

Ask yourself a question can the average man really afford to use the full legal system in the UK or America. It's beyond the reach of most and justice comes at a high price.

Where was the justice for the crew memebers of the uss liberty or the victims of Bologna train station bombing, the list is endless and could be brought right up to date.

Who was "the guy" in these cases?

[DocN]

Thailand is not so bad. In Holland the then famous footballer Patrick Kluivert was speeding in Amsterdam, killed 1 of a couple in a borrowed (and poorly insured) BMW M3. He walked away with it too.

http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2844/Archief/archief/article/detail/431138/1996/05/15/Rechtbank-acht-Ajax-vedette-schuldig-aan-dodelijk-ongeluk-Patrick-Kluivert-krijgt-werkstraf.dhtml

He had to work 240 hours = 6 weeks (to be finished in 1 year) on projects like gardening, maintenance blablabla.

It was a red convertible M3 and NOT insured. And the Dutch; always pointing finger to those 'terribly corrupted countries as Thailand'. Their Embassy in Bangkok is corrupt, the law system in Holland is corrupt.

So...he walked away with it, huh?

But at the same time, he was serving socially and lost his driving license?

Hmmmmm....

It may not be much, but a) it's more than the Red Bull- kiddo will ever get and b ) he factually didn't walk!

Nice try by a Thai- apologist!

Edited September 13, 2013 by DocN

[Thai at Heart]

Does it bother you if the victim family is happy, very happy with the out of court settlement?

sure they paid of the family and the family is happy

but how can you be happy that a person who killed a cop, drives recklesssly, drives under the influence ca run free ... who says he will not do it again?

Well is the policeman's family happy?

An earlier report says they were given 3Million Baht by the red bull family. Hardly a fortune no matter how you look at it, and hardly appropriate compensation for the death of anybody. Perhaps there was a second payment, I'm not sure on that point. Anybody have any info. on this?

Some quite interesting points in this case:

1. Normally the cops go all out for a conviction and hard sentence when one of thee one is injured or killed (anywhere in the world). In this case ?

2. A senior, it seems, tried to cover the whole thing up. If true it makes point 1 above seem questionable in this case. Interesting indeed.

Actually, Scorecard, as I think you know, in ordinary Thai circles, 3 million baht would be considered A LOT of monetary compensation for an ordinary person's death.

People get killed in criminal traffic accidents all the time, and the compensation amounts reached on the side between the parties often can be just a fraction of the 3M received by the policeman's family. Of course, in this case, the 3M isn't even couch change for the suspect's family.

By comparison, in the Don Muang tollway van crash, the insurance company involved supposedly paid out just 900,000 baht to the families of those killed in compensation and for hospital and funeral expenses.

I don't know the policeman's official salary in this instance (leaving aside whatever money he might have been getting on the side). But if, hypothetically, he was earning a 30,000 a month salary, the settlement would cover more than 8 years of earnings. And his official salary was probably less than that. Plus, I'd hope the RTP has some financial benefit package for the families of officers killed in the line of duty.

I'm not trying to defend the outcome by any means... The whole thing stinks. But from an ordinary Thai's perspective, they're probably thinking the family came away pretty well off, at least in financial terms.

If you or I had been the driver of that car, you can darned well know we wouldn't be taking a vacation in Singapore right now.

Well your first line gives it away perfectly. An ordinary person't life would be worth less than an un-ordinary one. Glad to see it so well confirmed. Maybe a well meaning foreign billionaire can leave a lawyer a suitcase of dosh, maybe 100mn USD and jump in front of the car of an enormous Thai pooyai, and take the case until the pooyai ends up finally behind bars, just to set a precedent.

[Heng]

There's double pricing all over the world in terms value of life. They just don't spin it as much here. Any gov't for example would pay a different rate for their own military accidentally killing someone in their own nation's suburbs as a opposed to an accidental local civilian death in some backwater country with poor media coverage.

I get the frustration though. It's completely understandable to feel a little uneasy and perhaps emasculated when one is more like the nobody policeman than the Red Bull heir in the big scheme of things.

[DGIE]

Money is powerful...it makes a man strong like a red bull!

[Kananga]

Does it bother you if the victim family is happy, very happy with the out of court settlement?

Yes, because he is free to do it again.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

There's double pricing all over the world in terms value of life. They just don't spin it as much here. Any gov't for example would pay a different rate for their own military accidentally killing someone in their own nation's suburbs as a opposed to an accidental local civilian death in some backwater country with poor media coverage.

I get the frustration though. It's completely understandable to feel a little uneasy and perhaps emasculated when one is more like the nobody policeman than the Red Bull heir in the big scheme of things.

Well, if you or I were the car driver, you can bet the policeman wouldn't be a "nobody", the RTP wouldn't be running away from the criminal case, and we wouldn't be taking a vacation in Singapore. We'd be sitting in jail, and probably have to pay a large sum and probably face a real prison sentence as well (figuring a cop's death, fleeing the scene, under the influence, etc etc).

I don't feel uneasy about being a "nobody" in Thai society. I feel uneasy because I live in a country where a little turd who deserves to be in jail probably is going to never serve a day. And obviously, his wont be the first or the last time where the same thing has occurred.

[lazygourmet]

I think the most shocking part of this is that he killed a cop. Normally, it's a huge thing to kill police, even accidentally but here it seems to be a non event. Amazing.

Eslewhere in the world the police don't take bribes and run rackets.

In Thailand police are often indistinguishable from criminal gang members.

Besides that, Thailand has very little inequality, if you have the money you can get out of anything.

A process, in most countries, normally reserved only for royalty and government officials.

(Shhhh...... don't mention Chappaquiddick)

Everywhere in the world police and/or government officials take bribes...

Everyone has a tag price.

And it is not because it is beyond your financial meanings that is never happening !!

[spidermike007]

It just goes to show what a corrupt country this is,two systems

if you have enough money or influence you can get away with

murder, its not even an isolated case,and not the first Policeman

to die at the hands of the privileged ,that case too was unsolved

even though everyone knew who the perpetrator was.

Regards Worgeordie

Well, the difference is in the US, you would be charged, and tried in court. But, if you had that kind of money, you would have a very, very high chance of being acquitted, or being found innocent. Just think of O.J. Money buys great lawyers, who then pervert the law for their clients. So, is there much difference? Perhaps the biggest difference is that the judiciary in the west is competent, as are the police. But, you can usually still buy your way out with $2,000,000 in legal fees.

[little mary sunshine]

Bull Shit to this "New Yorker" article. The super rich all over the World have the

advantage when it comes to the law. There is and always has been a double standard.

Hey, "New Yorker" don't pick on Thailand, after Ted Kennedy killed Mary Jo, He remained

a member of the US Congress. ( Rich getting away with murder) The drunken slob also had

sad life filled with tragedy. Karma people !!!!! Perhaps "The Boss" will live a long,

long and very sad life too.....Money isn't everything.

[yougivemebaby]

I can't help but think about the poetic justice here. Prince Red Bull accidentally killed a cop from one of the most corrupt police stations in Thailand.

Edited September 13, 2013 by yougivemebaby

[Overcome]

I take a contrary view to most of the comments expressed so far ... but in no way does this condone or lessen the heinous nature of this crime. But it's very easy here to associate this sort of behavior with Thailand and I think this is something that isn't just Thailand but more of a universal issue of (a) people who reach a certain level of power start to believe that they are not subject to the same laws as mere mortals (think of Richard Nixon's apparently sincere belief that if the President does it, that makes 'it' legal), and ( allegiance to the family and protection of the family name and bloodline takes precedence over everything else (Genghis Khan was a good example but this is a concept underpinning the whole concept of European monarchy, at least).

I'm not in any way excusing this but to associate this sort of thing just with Thailand is unfair - and for those who criticize might I suggest even in the most perfect of democratic, fair-minded and open societies (like the way the British Empire used to be run), we are at best a generation or two away from this activity being unremarkable anywhere.

I don't think this is too bad an article for the 'New Yorker' (given the average American's grasp of geography is a vague discomfort toward Mexicans in the south and even vaguer discomfort about the Mexicans-wearing-sweaters to the north, and further away an amorphous but troubling cloud of terrorists, would-be terrorists, and others who we have to fly over to bomb the terrorists).

But what I think particularly interesting is the indication that Thailand's economic distribution gap has actually diminished over the past decade in real terms. Personally I would not have thought so but it's impossible to tell from the inside and I accept the figures here - still a long way to go but but as much fuel for the Thai cynics as I thought there would be.

I never thought I would find myself leaping to the defence of Thailand but this is a subject where it's unfair in my view to single out Thailand as a particularly bad example when there are many others equally bad.

OK - crash helmet on, dump on me, all ye who will miss the point of what I am saying and see everything is the light of what a terrible place Thailand is.

[MB1]

Money is powerful...it makes a man strong like a red bull!

And in this case red bull gave him wings, probably to fly away in a private jet...

[MB1]

I take a contrary view to most of the comments expressed so far ... but in no way does this condone or lessen the heinous nature of this crime. But it's very easy here to associate this sort of behavior with Thailand and I think this is something that isn't just Thailand but more of a universal issue of (a) people who reach a certain level of power start to believe that they are not subject to the same laws as mere mortals (think of Richard Nixon's apparently sincere belief that if the President does it, that makes 'it' legal), and ( allegiance to the family and protection of the family name and bloodline takes precedence over everything else (Genghis Khan was a good example but this is a concept underpinning the whole concept of European monarchy, at least).

I'm not in any way excusing this but to associate this sort of thing just with Thailand is unfair - and for those who criticize might I suggest even in the most perfect of democratic, fair-minded and open societies (like the way the British Empire used to be run), we are at best a generation or two away from this activity being unremarkable anywhere.

I don't think this is too bad an article for the 'New Yorker' (given the average American's grasp of geography is a vague discomfort toward Mexicans in the south and even vaguer discomfort about the Mexicans-wearing-sweaters to the north, and further away an amorphous but troubling cloud of terrorists, would-be terrorists, and others who we have to fly over to bomb the terrorists).

But what I think particularly interesting is the indication that Thailand's economic distribution gap has actually diminished over the past decade in real terms. Personally I would not have thought so but it's impossible to tell from the inside and I accept the figures here - still a long way to go but but as much fuel for the Thai cynics as I thought there would be.

I never thought I would find myself leaping to the defence of Thailand but this is a subject where it's unfair in my view to single out Thailand as a particularly bad example when there are many others equally bad.

OK - crash helmet on, dump on me, all ye who will miss the point of what I am saying and see everything is the light of what a terrible place Thailand is.

I think the word Henious you used in your post is a little strong in this case, I don't think the crime was committed with any evil intent which therefore IMO means it didn't involve moral turpitude.

In this case it seems to me it was a case of hit and run and now the elite of Thailand as happens time and time again get away lightly or in some cases get off scott free with a little compensation thrown in..

I don't condone what the guy did either but this is Thailand and one of Thailands richest familys involved in this case..

Just my thoughts so fire away...

[Overcome]

I take a contrary view to most of the comments expressed so far ... but in no way does this condone or lessen the heinous nature of this crime. But it's very easy here to associate this sort of behavior with Thailand and I think this is something that isn't just Thailand but more of a universal issue of (a) people who reach a certain level of power start to believe that they are not subject to the same laws as mere mortals (think of Richard Nixon's apparently sincere belief that if the President does it, that makes 'it' legal), and ( allegiance to the family and protection of the family name and bloodline takes precedence over everything else (Genghis Khan was a good example but this is a concept underpinning the whole concept of European monarchy, at least).

I'm not in any way excusing this but to associate this sort of thing just with Thailand is unfair - and for those who criticize might I suggest even in the most perfect of democratic, fair-minded and open societies (like the way the British Empire used to be run), we are at best a generation or two away from this activity being unremarkable anywhere.

I don't think this is too bad an article for the 'New Yorker' (given the average American's grasp of geography is a vague discomfort toward Mexicans in the south and even vaguer discomfort about the Mexicans-wearing-sweaters to the north, and further away an amorphous but troubling cloud of terrorists, would-be terrorists, and others who we have to fly over to bomb the terrorists).

But what I think particularly interesting is the indication that Thailand's economic distribution gap has actually diminished over the past decade in real terms. Personally I would not have thought so but it's impossible to tell from the inside and I accept the figures here - still a long way to go but but as much fuel for the Thai cynics as I thought there would be.

I never thought I would find myself leaping to the defence of Thailand but this is a subject where it's unfair in my view to single out Thailand as a particularly bad example when there are many others equally bad.

OK - crash helmet on, dump on me, all ye who will miss the point of what I am saying and see everything is the light of what a terrible place Thailand is.

I think the word Henious you used in your post is a little strong in this case, I don't think the crime was committed with any evil intent which therefore IMO means it didn't involve moral turpitude.

In this case it seems to me it was a case of hit and run and now the elite of Thailand as happens time and time again get away lightly or in some cases get off scott free with a little compensation thrown in..

I don't condone what the guy did either but this is Thailand and one of Thailands richest familys involved in this case..

Just my thoughts so fire away...

You are quite correct that the original situation was probably in no way,either deliberate or premeditated and if that is how the legal definition of 'heinous' goes then I retract - how about obnoxious.

But as far as then attempting to implicate someone else, avoid accountability or as the wider family have done condone these things through their silent acquiescence, I stand by heinous.

God forbid it was my son or grandson but equally God forbid I would publicly debase myself and declare an absence of moral fibre as the Red Bull clan have done. Just shows money can make you richer on the outside but do nothing to change the bankrupt spirit

[Jay Sata]

I think this case may come back to haunt the global brand that is Red Bull.

Just look at what happened to the Thai Airways cover up a few days ago.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Jay Sata

[MB1]

I think this case may come back to haunt the global brand that is Red Bull.

I doubt that very much, and even if it did I can't see it hurting the The Yoovidhyas as there said to be worth around 8 billion US Dollars which is said to equate to around 2% of Thailands GDP and are Thailands 4th richest family.....

More to the point IMO most of the people in the rest of the world don't even know about the incident....