Any Americans in Thailand giving up US citizenship ?

[rotary]

It's still a small proportion of the estimated six million Americans abroad, but it's a significant rise.

Giving up ones citizenship only really works, if one has or can take up another nationality....ie you cant be "stateless"

So the question to drtermine if this rise is signiticant or not is to determine how many of the 6 million living abroad have dual nationality or easy access to becoming a dual national, where by they can give up their US citizenship

I believe the US Consul will not let you give up citizenship unless you prove you have another. I think there are many US Citizens who would gladly give up citizenship if they could obtain another useful citizenship fairly easy. Nothing to do with "proud" but more to do with silly taxes yanks have to pay when they do not live in the USA.

[slipperylobster]

Certainly not any military retirees, especially if they also have diabilities/social security. Forget the taxes, that combination brings a hefty paycheck. Renouncing citizenship would be like throwing away money I earned/and rate.

American for Life ! Thank you USA

[bangsaenguy]

I'd give up my US citizenship in a minute if I could become a citizen elsewhere easily

[smotherb]

Although there has been some good advice on this forum; unususal but true--you have been advised to have another citizenship ready and to consult a tax lawyer.

However, you have also been misinformed about a stateless person. The UNHCR certifies travel documents for stateless people and has since 1954. These stateless travel documents serve the same purpose as a passport--travel and official identification for banks, hotels, government agencies, etc. So, also contact your UNHCR office or research online. Doesn't anyone else seek tangible support for major decisions?

[Sheryl]

The UNHCR (the r standing for "refugee") assists persons who are, or become, stateless due to forces beyond their control. And they are pretty busy assisiing same. I think you'd find them most unreceptive to assisting a person who voluntarily renounced his only citizenship .

[Sheryl]

800,000 baht I keep for retirement visa is under the threshold, so I don't care about that part of taxation. I don't pay state taxes anymore because I live here. When I go to USA, customs say I am a non-resident, so can't bring so many presents in duty free (that may be a plus?). Thing that does anger me is that medicare does not cover US citizens living abroad, though government is still happy to take our money. Paying taxes is part of being a citizen. Somebody has to pay for these wars we seem to enjoy participating in!

Oh, it covers you, you just have to travel back to the US to avail of it! Which obviously excludes using it for any type of emergency care. But perfectly viable for necessary but non-urgent procedures (hip replacements and the like) and many TV members have used it for such.

[Sheryl]

I think in California they pay capital gains on the sale of a house, even if it's their primary residence. So my Uncle who bought his house in West Covina in 1975 cannot afford to move.

Washington state would be my choice.

I sold my home in California in 2003; California Franchise Tax Board (FTB) allowed the same profit exclusion as the IRS. I.e., the first $250K for single filers or $500K for couples is not taxed & doesn't need to be reported.

When I moved to Thailand in 2004, I simply closed my California bank accounts & sent a change of address to the FTB. I then filed a partial-year residence return for 2004. After that, I was free & clear & only filed fed returns thereafter. The only negative I faced was regarding voting. Though fed rules state that I could still vote based on my last stateside address, California registration requirements spooked me a bit; I could envision being suddenly on the hook for state taxes again, so I balked.

I don't think they can use your place of voter registration as proof of tax liability, but contact Democrats Abroad for definitive answer. (You might also find it in the FAQ on their website).

[isawasnake]

The key to success and happiness for an expat is to take the good things about your home country (eg passport, maybe health care), and use them, while taking the bad, and shunning them. The US passport is not one of the things to be shunned. I guess it depends largely on your income level too though. For most of us, keeping the US passport is a no brainer.

[Forethat]

the same "unwise" attribute applies to somebody who renounces his citizenship without having obtained another citizenship and a relevant valid passport in his/her pocket.

You cannot renounce your citizenship without a second citizenship. Though possible, statelessness is extremely difficult to achieve.

[lomatopo]

The most recent thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/563511-i-want-to-give-up-my-us-citizenship/

While 1,131 people renounced their U.S. citizenship in 2012, nearly one million people became U.S. citizens in 2012, and just over another one million became legal, permanent citizens, so the net add of two million is significant.

Seven states in the US have no State Tax, Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas and Washington State.

Income, sales, investment, business, estate/inheritance, gas, alcohol, tobacco, real estate/property, automobile, luxury, food, clothing, restaurant?

You really have to look at the overall tax burden, which obviously varies by state and municipality.

I think Wyoming, South Dakota, Nevada, Alaska, Florida usually make the top (bottom?) 5 in lowest overall tax burden.

Edited September 28, 2013 by lomatopo

[pomchop]

800,000 baht I keep for retirement visa is under the threshold, so I don't care about that part of taxation. I don't pay state taxes anymore because I live here. When I go to USA, customs say I am a non-resident, so can't bring so many presents in duty free (that may be a plus?). Thing that does anger me is that medicare does not cover US citizens living abroad, though government is still happy to take our money. Paying taxes is part of being a citizen. Somebody has to pay for these wars we seem to enjoy participating in!

Oh, it covers you, you just have to travel back to the US to avail of it! Which obviously excludes using it for any type of emergency care. But perfectly viable for necessary but non-urgent procedures (hip replacements and the like) and many TV members have used it for such.

In addition to medicare part B I have a united health care supplemental plan F....under this plan it covers you OUTSIDE the usa for the first sixty days with a deductible of $250....so if you go back and forth a lot it could be a nice coverage to have ...each time you re enter then leave the usa a new sixty days begins.

[Jingthing]

You can take the Yankee out of America but you can't take America out of the Yankee.

[zydeco]

Giving up U.S. citizenship is & always will be a personal choice. I am certain that anyone who does this goes through a great deal of soul-searching before actually doing it.

Once done, however, there's no going back. A decade or so ago, a U.S. retired military chap gave up his citizenship to become an Australian citizen. A couple of years later, DFAS found out & canceled his retirement payments; they also stuck him with a bill for the years of payments received since the citizenship change. He appealed all the way to the SCOTUS & lost. There is one exception to this rule: Filipino nationals are allowed to retain their Philippines citizenship while simultaneously receiving military retirement checks.

But non-citizens can join the US military. It would be strange were they unable to draw retirement after being allowed to join and serve their 20 years.

[Suetape]

Never give it up!

[Nana Cowboy]

Wow, .001% of americans renounced their citizenship, eh? sounds like an epidemic only a UK publication could come up with. lol. UKers have been obsessed with bailing out of their country since the days of hips and scurvy and the use of limes to help ease the effects of scurvy.that's no reason to assume that citizens are bailing out of other countries like the USA just because they've been doing such for 1000s of years. I dont go to the UK, been there once.I guess residents just dont care for the place as a general rule and bail to other countries. spo be it. la dee dah. I dont know a single fellow american looking to get out. what would you people call it? bullocks or something?

Whats with all the vile anti-British comments ?

But personally know a few colonial cousins who would give up their "land O free" passports up in heart beat if they could, but they cant simply because they do not have dual citizeship or easy access to another nationality and the reasons, Tax is one thing and the belief the US has turned into a facist bully boy country which is fixated on invading other countries (their words not mine)...

but you keep waving the flag dear boy...white picket fenches and apple pie and all

I

not anti-British comments. Perhaps anti-publication comments in which this bbc happens to be UK based. Just pointing out that brits are spread about Thailand and all over the world. It looked like a pretty posh country in my short visit there decades ago.The folks jut seems to be international movers and shakers and thats cool.but the USA citizens are not that at all. We just tend to stick to our country as a general rule. I didnt but the vast majority do

[Nana Cowboy]

Been in usa recently and felt miserable. Same as thai people. They don't like the usa, food is poor, culture Is weak and most usa people are clueless. Seem their brain is not really working at 100%. They accept anything we throw at them. Amazing to see at what point they have been brainwashed by materialism and capitalist endoctrinments. Have you tried to speak to them? Very hard to communicate.... It s all "dude, cool, awesome, yeah, duh!" I don't know but I feel better in thailand than being a poor soul in the usa. Walmart and shopping mall just suck.... And where are the good paid US jobs? In China or what? In usa you are nobody, in thailand, you are somebody! http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com

While you do sound like an extremely knowledgeable expert on all things USA, I must say I disagree with your statements on the country

Edited September 28, 2013 by Nana Cowboy

[Nana Cowboy]

"H&R block charge about $250 for the most basic tax return with basic W2 form salary only." - False. I worked for H&R Block for several years. The return you describe would be free. A married couple with a couple of W2s, who own their home with a mortgage deduction and a couple of kids - it may be that high depending on other stuff.

I am not an H&R Block advocate - I highly recommend TurboTax if possible in your situation - just wanted to straighten out an error.

Cheers.

TurboTax is stellar

[IAMSOBAD]

Please confirm $50,000 as the amount to stay under.

I've been told it's $10,000 in the bank sends a report to IRS.

[bonobo]

I've heard from American friends that the tax issue comes down to which state you live in. I think many were relocating to Colorado because of the lower taxes there. Denver seems popular. Some of the state taxes in the likes of California seemed quite potty.

So perhaps renounce your state and not your citizenship.

Seven states in the US have no State Tax, Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas and Washington State.

But you will never get away from Federal Tax. Like Benjamin Franklin said “Nothing is certain except death and taxes.”

Yes, it was state taxes that especially seemed to wind people up. I think in California they pay capital gains on the sale of a house, even if it's their primary residence. So my Uncle who bought his house in West Covina in 1975 cannot afford to move.

Washington state would be my choice.

I sold a house in San Diego last year and paid no capital gains on it, either federal or state. If you have lived in it as your primary residence for at least two years, you owe no taxes on it if the capital gain is less than $250k for singles, $500k for married couples..

[isawasnake]

Been in usa recently and felt miserable. Same as thai people. They don't like the usa, food is poor, culture Is weak and most usa people are clueless. Seem their brain is not really working at 100%. They accept anything we throw at them. Amazing to see at what point they have been brainwashed by materialism and capitalist endoctrinments. Have you tried to speak to them? Very hard to communicate.... It s all "dude, cool, awesome, yeah, duh!" I don't know but I feel better in thailand than being a poor soul in the usa. Walmart and shopping mall just suck.... And where are the good paid US jobs? In China or what? In usa you are nobody, in thailand, you are somebody! http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com

While you do sound like an extremely knowledgeable expert on all things USA, I must say I disagree with your statements on the country

There are some keepers in there....

"USA people the same as Thais" - I think we are polar opposites in almost every way personally.

"USA food is poor" - I will just let this stand on its own. Actually, 2 words one letter: In N Out (burger)

"walmart and malls suck" - I guess, if you don't like the lowest prices and largest selection of goods in the world and plenty of space to actually walk, and quick reliable service, and ability to return any item no questions..... yeah, if you don't like all that then it really sucks. lol

Notice I did not disagree with all of his sentiments however

Edited September 28, 2013 by isawasnake

[bonobo]

Probably you do not know...but...if you got your last passport after 2006 you also got a nice page with a beautiful eagle on it...This page is a tracking device that can be scanned to know where you are traveling....Next time getting into America...if you are questioned...you know why.

I am not inventing this...I have a close friend working for the CIA in America..and he has very interesting things to talk about his work...and the US.

I will adopt the Thai citizenship without doubts if I can...

Not quite. The RFID chip in the passport contains the same information as in the passport page, the same information that is scanned as you enter most countries, including Thailand. The data on it is entered by an encoder when it is first implanted into the passport. It does not "track" you as you roam the world. Nor does the reading of it in any country that uses RFID technology enter any data into the chip. RFID doesn't work that way.

What happens in other countries does not get back to the US when you return. They would have to manually go through the pages to see what stamps you have, then enter that in your record.

Furthermore, the RFID chip gives out the same information that is given when you scan the code on the bottom of the passport. If there was a nation sharing some sort of entry/exit data with the US for some nefarious reason, then it would be just as easy to do this with the data from the scanned code. They would not need to invest in RFID readers.

[MacChine]

I'd sure like to know a little bit more about this rumour you heard. Possibly confused it with what has been chattered- that banks, all over the world in fact, will not accept new US applicants. That may certainly be a hindrance to Americans all over.

Not to fear, I'm sure T Immig will find some other way to extract monies from US retirees though they do seem to be dwindling off remarkably.

We can say US is getting out of control , but it's all over, look at what Greece just did to account holders, sucked the cash right out .

No as much as US govt disgusts me with its ra ra war mongering, and yes it' ignorant over-mediazed shop -a- holic, ill read public, I'd never give citizenship up, especially for a third rate run nation such as Tland

I heard that it won't be possible for a USA person to get retirement in thailand very soon.

Thai bank will shut down all accounts owned by us person in July 2014 when fatca will be fully implemented.

So you have 2 choices, go home or ditch this blue passport.

Now who is laughing at me....?

Edited September 28, 2013 by MacChine

[sirineou]

Tempest in a tea cup!!!

Out of 314 million citizens 1300 give up their citizenship, about .000005% a trivial percentage.

I wonder what the natural rate of citizenship renunciation is in most countries in the world , I also wonder what percentage of them were naturalized citizens who changed their minds, and or people with dual citizenship who for what ever reason decided to retain only one.

Edited September 28, 2013 by sirineou

[MAJIC]

Surely the ultimate flounce.

Yes! and quite likely to be regretted in later years.

[bonobo]

Giving up U.S. citizenship is & always will be a personal choice. I am certain that anyone who does this goes through a great deal of soul-searching before actually doing it.

Once done, however, there's no going back. A decade or so ago, a U.S. retired military chap gave up his citizenship to become an Australian citizen. A couple of years later, DFAS found out & canceled his retirement payments; they also stuck him with a bill for the years of payments received since the citizenship change. He appealed all the way to the SCOTUS & lost. There is one exception to this rule: Filipino nationals are allowed to retain their Philippines citizenship while simultaneously receiving military retirement checks.

But non-citizens can join the US military. It would be strange were they unable to draw retirement after being allowed to join and serve their 20 years.

Non-citizens of any country retain earned US military retirements. However, renouncing your US citizenship does forfeit your military pension.

[XINLOI]

A new law called the Foreign Accounts Tax Compliance Act (Fatca) will, from 1 July next year, require all financial institutions around the world to report directly to the US Internal Revenue Service (IRS) all the assets and incomes of any US citizens with $50,000 (£31,000) on their books. The US could withhold 30% of dividends and interest payments due to the banks that don't comply.

So you split your assets up among a variety of banks in Thailand and never let a balance exceed 50 k usd so the banks report nothing...it would be wise to have several accounts anyway since eventually the Thai version of FDIC only insures each bank account up to 1 million baht.....unless you are a very wealthy person I don't see the problem. As for spending 5000 usd to pay someone to file your taxes then somebody is either very lazy, dumb, or rich. As previous poster said there are all kinds of tax software programs available.

Can't imagine giving up my usa citizenship and unlike someone in the article who says she doesn't know any Americans who are NOT considering it I frankly don't know any who ARE considering.

Sounds kinda fishy to me or some kind of unsubstantiated rumor. What about the FBAR, which nails you,if you have more than 10K in assets anywhere in the world, then they hijack you, if you have more, for 50% of your assets. By the way, the banks here and everywhere else are already ratting you out to the FEDS. Can you provide a link to this new means of extortion?

Giving up your citizenship will not ease any burden acquired in the USA, they will still hold you responsible, tax or otherwise. I had considered it but the hidden truths convinced me not to......

Edited September 28, 2013 by XINLOI

[XINLOI]

Probably you do not know...but...if you got your last passport after 2006 you also got a nice page with a beautiful eagle on it...This page is a tracking device that can be scanned to know where you are traveling....Next time getting into America...if you are questioned...you know why.

I am not inventing this...I have a close friend working for the CIA in America..and he has very interesting things to talk about his work...and the US.

I will adopt the Thai citizenship without doubts if I can...

Not quite. The RFID chip in the passport contains the same information as in the passport page, the same information that is scanned as you enter most countries, including Thailand. The data on it is entered by an encoder when it is first implanted into the passport. It does not "track" you as you roam the world. Nor does the reading of it in any country that uses RFID technology enter any data into the chip. RFID doesn't work that way.

What happens in other countries does not get back to the US when you return. They would have to manually go through the pages to see what stamps you have, then enter that in your record.

Furthermore, the RFID chip gives out the same information that is given when you scan the code on the bottom of the passport. If there was a nation sharing some sort of entry/exit data with the US for some nefarious reason, then it would be just as easy to do this with the data from the scanned code. They would not need to invest in RFID readers.

The RFID chip can be read by ANYONE that has a reader, with or without your knowledge. That is a security issue I would like to see changed. I can see even more identity theft coming in the future......lol

[bonobo]

Not quite. The RFID chip in the passport contains the same information as in the passport page, the same information that is scanned as you enter most countries, including Thailand. The data on it is entered by an encoder when it is first implanted into the passport. It does not "track" you as you roam the world. Nor does the reading of it in any country that uses RFID technology enter any data into the chip. RFID doesn't work that way.

What happens in other countries does not get back to the US when you return. They would have to manually go through the pages to see what stamps you have, then enter that in your record.

Furthermore, the RFID chip gives out the same information that is given when you scan the code on the bottom of the passport. If there was a nation sharing some sort of entry/exit data with the US for some nefarious reason, then it would be just as easy to do this with the data from the scanned code. They would not need to invest in RFID readers.

The RFID chip can be read by ANYONE that has a reader, with or without your knowledge. That is a security issue I would like to see changed. I can see even more identity theft coming in the future......lol

That is the major criticism of the system. Even before it was implemented, many people raised the issue of privacy. It is not hard to swipe info from an RFID chip.

[theblether]

Wow, .001% of americans renounced their citizenship, eh? sounds like an epidemic only a UK publication could come up with. lol. UKers have been obsessed with bailing out of their country since the days of hips and scurvy and the use of limes to help ease the effects of scurvy.that's no reason to assume that citizens are bailing out of other countries like the USA just because they've been doing such for 1000s of years. I dont go to the UK, been there once.I guess residents just dont care for the place as a general rule and bail to other countries. spo be it. la dee dah. I dont know a single fellow american looking to get out. what would you people call it? bullocks or something?

Whats with all the vile anti-British comments ?

But personally know a few colonial cousins who would give up their "land O free" passports up in heart beat if they could, but they cant simply because they do not have dual citizeship or easy access to another nationality and the reasons, Tax is one thing and the belief the US has turned into a facist bully boy country which is fixated on invading other countries (their words not mine)...

but you keep waving the flag dear boy...white picket fenches and apple pie and all

I

not anti-British comments. Perhaps anti-publication comments in which this bbc happens to be UK based. Just pointing out that brits are spread about Thailand and all over the world. It looked like a pretty posh country in my short visit there decades ago.The folks jut seems to be international movers and shakers and thats cool.but the USA citizens are not that at all. We just tend to stick to our country as a general rule. I didnt but the vast majority do

Bizarre that you are having a go at the BBC. There's a massive coterie of Americans that visit the BBC website daily looking for an unbiased view of, in particular, matters American. It seems the US media has drawn partisan battle lines these days. That's a democratic deficit going on right there. On a similar subject I remember reading that the level of traffic coming across the Atlantic to read the quality British newspapers online was astronomical, The Times, ( now sub only ) and the Telegraph being the main beneficiaries. We Brits may fight like cat and dog among ourselves but we know who we are and when the going get's tough, we're in, all in.

Back on topic, yes I do know an American couple here in Chiang Mai that are determined to give up their citizenship, and wish to do so at the earliest opportunity. I have counselled them caution, they are deeply irritated at these types of intrusions and I remember seeing one of them go mad when another recent intrusive announcement was made.

I would say that we Brits are genuinely astounded that Americans are standing for this. I would say that many of us were of the belief that the US was a "small" government/self reliance society. Patently not now.

I've spent the last few days researching the US Civil War and only in the last few minutes I read the Gettysburg Address again...........

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate, we can not consecrate, we can not hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us—that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion—that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

I fear somewhere along the line your government has stopped serving you and is now helping itself.

[Gumballl]

I fear somewhere along the line your government has stopped serving you and is now helping itself.

What is your definition of "government"? Is it only the few people (535 in the US) that makes/passes the laws, or are you referring to the countless civil servants that are also counted as being part of the "government"?

I work for the US government (as a contractor), and I can tell you that neither I, nor the civil servants I work with, have any direct say into what goes on in the upper echelons of "government". We are just like any other worker; we face the same challenges every one else faces with respect to paying taxes, social security, and providing for our families.

Now, a few malcontents want to shut the entire government down, because like you, they are clueless as to what is the "government". Talk about self-serving.