Aged Care in Bangkok

[RoboLB]

My wife is worried what will happen to her when I pass away :-(

Ok, here's the background.

1. We plan to retire in Thailand sometime in the next 5 years. Perhaps as early as 1 year.
2. My wife is Thai. married for 12 years.
3. I am 57 my wife is 45.
4. I am dual British/Australian.
5. My wife is dual Thai/Australian.
6. We don't have kids........... through choice. (Though I have some from previous marriage, all grown up now)

So, as I understand it, in the West, we prefer to be independent in our old age, and not rely on our kids. So often we go into some kind of aged care facility when we can no longer take care of ourselves. Personally I can't think of anything worse, and would prefer once I get to that stage to go out in a 'blaze of glory' of some type!

Whereas in most of Asia, and certainly in Thailand, the kids are there to take care of their parents in their old age. So there's the issue. We don't have kids. (Through choice).

My wife does have younger siblings and a niece that is very close, (lived with us for 3 years) but quite frankly on past performance, I would not rely on any of her family for anything! So let's leave them out of the picture totally.

So I'm wondering what her options might be. We'll be living between Australia and Thailand in retirement, but I know that if I was not around, she would not want to stay in Australia alone. So Bangkok it will be. But she will need to be self reliant, self funding somehow. She will not be left without resources. She'll have a home, an income, savings etc.

So what do you think might be her best options for her old age? Aged Care facility? In-home care? Any thoughts most appreciated.

[lopburi3]

In your other thread it seemed she was worried about her passing before you and you losing your stay in Thailand without her. Looks like you are trying to get everything sorted early on but, as with life, expect change. As of now there is very little in the way of organized care facilities here - have seen several a few 'investment' type places in last decade but only know of a couple actually operating and they are very low key. At this time if not family believe most have caregivers as paid help, and if no extended family living with them. Know several in our Bangkok village in that category. I would not dwell on this as am sure it will work out and how it does is likely to be very different then than now.

[Sheryl]

It will obviously depend on her condition. There are a growing number of elderly living alone in Thailand and slowly starting to be services for them but it is taking time to catch up.

There are only a very small number of resident programs and these would be only for people who are completely unable to care for themselves or be cared for at home.

A few hospitals in Bkk are starting to provide home health services. But unless what is needed is skilled nursing care (e.g. tube feeding, dressing chages, blood tests etc) it is far cheaper to arrange for this privately.

As Lopburi said, there are many possible scenarios and it is too soon to tell which will apply. It would however be wise for her to try to strengthen ties to whatever relatives she may have who are reasonably reliable, even if these are not the closest blood relations. Even if she is able to manage at home with perhaps live-in care, someone younger and fit needs to keep an eye on the situation.

[rgs2001uk]

Where I live there is a residential nursing home, costs 18,000 baht per month.

Thats share a room with others, the place has about 12 residents.

An other option is to rent a local house and pay the staff to make home visits.

In the above mentioned home, is this the oldest living woman in Thailand, a resident aged 105 years?

Another thing I have never seen before, a resident i was told had had a stroke, but she was paralysed on the RH side (I thought it was the LH side for a stroke).

The residents arent all senile, many have there wits about them, but they all require some level of care.

The place appeared clean and well run and the residents seemed happy enough, the only thing they appeared to be lacking were visitors, on my visit some elderly ex teacher made a bee line for me just so she could speak to someone in English.

I usually pop in once a week, or have a chat with the residents when I see them going for a walk in the village.

[RoboLB]

In your other thread it seemed she was worried about her passing before you and you losing your stay in Thailand without her. Looks like you are trying to get everything sorted early on but, as with life, expect change. As of now there is very little in the way of organized care facilities here - have seen several a few 'investment' type places in last decade but only know of a couple actually operating and they are very low key. At this time if not family believe most have caregivers as paid help, and if no extended family living with them. Know several in our Bangkok village in that category. I would not dwell on this as am sure it will work out and how it does is likely to be very different then than now.

Not trying to be morbid, but rather just think ahead and do a bit of planning.

Yes, my wife's big fear is that I go first, and she will be left on her own. So I need to reassure her, with at least some outline plans to put her mind at ease.

It was only when I was thinking about that, that I thought, Hey.........what if she goes first? She is convinced she will not last long. Fortune Teller etc :-) I'm sure I can fend for myself OK, but it got me thinking that maybe I would lose my Visa. But as others have now pointed out, on a Non Imig O-A, my visa has nothing to do with being married to a Thai.

I'm sure in the long run we'll both keep going to a ripe old age, but no harm in at least being prepared!

[RoboLB]

Where I live there is a residential nursing home, costs 18,000 baht per month.

Thats share a room with others, the place has about 12 residents.

An other option is to rent a local house and pay the staff to make home visits.

In the above mentioned home, is this the oldest living woman in Thailand, a resident aged 105 years?

Another thing I have never seen before, a resident i was told had had a stroke, but she was paralysed on the RH side (I thought it was the LH side for a stroke).

The residents arent all senile, many have there wits about them, but they all require some level of care.

The place appeared clean and well run and the residents seemed happy enough, the only thing they appeared to be lacking were visitors, on my visit some elderly ex teacher made a bee line for me just so she could speak to someone in English.

I usually pop in once a week, or have a chat with the residents when I see them going for a walk in the village.

Thanks. I did a bit of a Google search and there appears to be one or two places. So we'll check again in a few years time!

Re the earlier comment about building ties with family. Forget it. We have both had enough of them all. Totally unreliable.

[lopburi3]

My post was more to do with what I expect will be great change in the situation of organized care in the future rather than being morbid to think about the options. Just that today will likely not be the same option as tomorrow and you are not even living here yet. If there really is no family tie available not sure why a move back here would be an advantage after all the years she has spent in Oz. Unless her palate prefers.

It does seem strange to rule out family, however unreliable. Normally they would be expected to act in best interest even when dysfunctional in everything else. And if alone here that is something not easy to find. I would also be weighting vacations in Thailand rather than move as maybe worthy of consideration. Sorry - none of my business but just thinking out loud as if I were in your position.

[RoboLB]

My post was more to do with what I expect will be great change in the situation of organized care in the future rather than being morbid to think about the options. Just that today will likely not be the same option as tomorrow and you are not even living here yet. If there really is no family tie available not sure why a move back here would be an advantage after all the years she has spent in Oz. Unless her palate prefers.

It does seem strange to rule out family, however unreliable. Normally they would be expected to act in best interest even when dysfunctional in everything else. And if alone here that is something not easy to find. I would also be weighting vacations in Thailand rather than move as maybe worthy of consideration. Sorry - none of my business but just thinking out loud as if I were in your position.

Quite understand. Feel free to think out loud :-)

We will actually live between Sydney and Bangkok in our early retirement, and then decide which we prefer longer term.

As you say, who knows what may happen in the future. I just want to bounce around our options at this stage to help us with planning and sorting finances.

I won't totally rule out family. They may be of some assistance. I just won't count on it :-)

I think if my wife was left on her own, she would still prefer to live in Bangkok and be amongst her own culture, language, food etc. While she is an Australian citizen, as I am, neither of us have strong ties to Australia. We tend to keep to ourselves and don't really make friends easily. So we are happy anywhere really if together. Once alone, that will change I'm sure. To wanting to be in the place the remaining one feels most comfortable.

Personally for me. That could be anywhere......

[Samaaw]

1) She is Thai - have you asked her on this? Surely she knows what she will do

2) She has a niece close to her - so that would be an option for care

3) You say she will be self reliant & taken care of financially - so no issues in that respect

In the end the old custom / culture thing will anyway come into play and she will obviously turn to family for assistance if needed.

I don't see the problem - but if I were you I would try to have some special savings account for this issue in the future - something that you keep saving in from now that she will have for her own as extra when the time of need arises

[biplanebluey]

Youre leaving her with a home an income and savings----------- sounds like enough to me !!!

[Toscano]

I say " Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof ". My wife worries that when I die there may not be enough money to live on .

My wife 52yrs to my 76yrs is always saying she will die first . I assure her I will get a nice box from the undertakers nearby , to have in readyness .

I'm sure that if you leave your wife adequately provided for financially , she will be able to organise something for herself ; whether to have a younger person live in , stay with relatives or find a place in an old peoples home . Money talks in Thailand , your wife could easily find herself welcome with relatives or friends if she is able to pay her way .

[peterpop]

I say " Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof ". My wife worries that when I die there may not be enough money to live on .

My wife 52yrs to my 76yrs is always saying she will die first . I assure her I will get a nice box from the undertakers nearby , to have in readyness .

I'm sure that if you leave your wife adequately provided for financially , she will be able to organise something for herself ; whether to have a younger person live in , stay with relatives or find a place in an old peoples home . Money talks in Thailand , your wife could easily find herself welcome with relatives or friends if she is able to pay her way .

Good advice I am in the same position 72 with wife 47. She always says she will go before me but she really has no worries of being left as a relatively well off widow. In Chiang Mai there is a choice of retirement homes if neccessary.

[umbanda]

You said that If you die she will have a home and some income. Perhaps you can pay, and you are willing, to have a live in caretaker for you and your wife in Thailand. Assuming that the caretaker will prove that she is a competent and a trustful person, and that your wife will have means to keep that person with her after your death, that may be a possible solution for your concerns.

[shaurene]

Hi Robol

You are only 57 mate you got a long way to go, wait till you are 75 at least and go from there, just enjoy your selves. I am 72 and I have never thought about it, my wife has our house and little shop and plenty relations but my old Dad used to say to me, never trust relatives and never lend them money or give them a job, they will shit on you. It is quite true with some of the things I have seen and heard what relatives can do, you pop off and they all come out of the woodwork.

But I will put my couple cents in. You say she has dual citizenship which is true if she has Aussie passport. I would personally make my goal to live in Aussie when the time came as she will or should have the facilities available to her and you if you age well together and settle in a home care place up in the North Aussie for warmth. In these places you would make good friends and if you go first I do not think your wife would be lonely. Stop worrying now your to young just enjoy. Best of luck and Long Life.

[Sceptict11]

Hi Robol

You are only 57 mate you got a long way to go, wait till you are 75 at least and go from there, just enjoy your selves. I am 72 and I have never thought about it, my wife has our house and little shop and plenty relations but my old Dad used to say to me, never trust relatives and never lend them money or give them a job, they will shit on you. It is quite true with some of the things I have seen and heard what relatives can do, you pop off and they all come out of the woodwork.

But I will put my couple cents in. You say she has dual citizenship which is true if she has Aussie passport. I would personally make my goal to live in Aussie when the time came as she will or should have the facilities available to her and you if you age well together and settle in a home care place up in the North Aussie for warmth. In these places you would make good friends and if you go first I do not think your wife would be lonely. Stop worrying now your to young just enjoy. Best of luck and Long Life.

My wife is younger than me and we have been married for a long time.

Of course I wish to ensure she is well provided for when I am no longer here.

This does not , however, mean she will have unrestricted access to Capital. If that were to occur I have no doubt her relatives would ensure she was left with very little.

Structure your will and assets so as to ensure on going support for your wife and this may include the future need to fund long term care. The financial arrangements are probably best arranged outside Thailand .

Good advise is essential when setting up the arrangements.

[Tatsujin]

I would have thought one option is to simply ensure finances and housing situation is sorted out for the long term, then hire a live-in Nurse (s) to take care of her when she is no longer able to look after herself.

[The Usual Suspect]

I am always thinking ahead (not dwelling) on the possibility of my passing before my wife. I am 63 and except for a bit of arthritis, I am in excellent health. My wife is 45 and also in very good health. Realistically though, barring an accident, the chances of my checking out before her are pretty certain. We have discussed this eventuality openly. It looks as though with proper financial planning ie: making sure our house and other current debts are paid off as quickly as possible, a survivor's savings account for her and trying our best not to go into further debt, that she will be alright. She wil also have a government pension from her teaching job and medical coverage. All in all, I feel confident that she will be fine, but naturally as I grow older the thought of my own mortality is always at my shoulder. Lord willing, I still have some good years left.

[Guest Gandtee]

If as you say your wife will not be short of funds her relations will be around double quick and she must be sharp enough to hold onto her purse strings. I have heard of a small private retirement home in Sattahip town. Whether it is licenced, if a licence is required that is, or inspected by any authority, I don't know.

A slightly different scenario is the Baht 400,000 visa required to support a Thai wife in Thailand. If she pops off before her farang husband, what does he do? Best to get a retirement visa so hubby is independent but Baht 800,000 is a bit stiff.

[waxon]

My wife and I are in good health... but who knows. We should have the house paid for soon. I have pensions with her as the survior beneficiary. I also have life insurance.

She has family and she gets on well with them, but none have any ability to support another person. I am sure they would look after her if she needed though.

My wife told me she would probably move into a wat if I died. Not that she spends much time in one now, but with some donation she could live fairly well there plus there would be a number of other single women around. Not her only option, but would probably be better than living alone in a 3 bdrm home.

[kiniyow]

The Philippines is another option..Many Rest Homes and super Take Care attitudes at very good prices for the elderly...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Structure your will and assets so as to ensure on going support for your wife and this may include the future need to fund long term care. The financial arrangements are probably best arranged outside Thailand .

That above is my general thinking also, though we're a few years younger than most of the folks posting here above.

The challenge, though, is how exactly to accomplish the good goal you mention here.

I'd like to structure my/our finances in the future in a way that, after my passing, gives her free cash for her needs, but more importantly, a guaranteed monthly source of income for her life.

I know how to handle that for myself, but I'm reasonably sophisticated about financial matters, whereas my wife is not. I'd like to set things up for her so that they'll basically run on auto pilot for the most part after I'm gone, in the event I go first.

One potential method for that is an annuity/annuities... But I'm not clear on just how that would work for financial products purchased in my home country, but paid out to someone in a different country of Thai citizenship. Annuities also have some risks to principal that I'm not too excited about.

Another method would be potentially inheriting my IRA type investments in my home country. But I'm not sure my wife would know how to handle those even at the simplest level. And then, again, you have the issue of income originating in my home country and needing to end up arriving here for her.

The thought of trusting her future nest egg with any financial advisor or provider here in Thailand, or trusting them to manage finances well for her after I'm gone, is pretty frightening prospect. I can't see us going down that road.

So how best get this done???

Edited October 7, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[geezer2]

nothing to do with bkk as i dont live there, what a good post got me and the wife talking reading it and the replyes..

[geezer2]

getting worried now as she now know' s she will get 50% of my pensions..when i leave this place

[Sceptict11]

Structure your will and assets so as to ensure on going support for your wife and this may include the future need to fund long term care. The financial arrangements are probably best arranged outside Thailand .

That above is my general thinking also, though we're a few years younger than most of the folks posting here above.

The challenge, though, is how exactly to accomplish the good goal you mention here.

I'd like to structure my/our finances in the future in a way that, after my passing, gives her free cash for her needs, but more importantly, a guaranteed monthly source of income for her life.

I know how to handle that for myself, but I'm reasonably sophisticated about financial matters, whereas my wife is not. I'd like to set things up for her so that they'll basically run on auto pilot for the most part after I'm gone, in the event I go first.

One potential method for that is an annuity/annuities... But I'm not clear on just how that would work for financial products purchased in my home country, but paid out to someone in a different country of Thai citizenship. Annuities also have some risks to principal that I'm not too excited about.

Another method would be potentially inheriting my IRA type investments in my home country. But I'm not sure my wife would know how to handle those even at the simplest level. And then, again, you have the issue of income originating in my home country and needing to end up arriving here for her.

The thought of trusting her future nest egg with any financial advisor or provider here in Thailand, or trusting them to manage finances well for her after I'm gone, is pretty frightening prospect. I can't see us going down that road.

So how best get this done???

John

I went through the issues you mention.

I was fortunate in having old university friends who are now active in the financial world assist me in achieving my aims.

I am not qualified to offer advise to others.

However be assured your wife's future finances can be secured.

[F4UCorsair]

Let me make some assumptions based on what I read.

You own a property in Australia? You own a property in Thailand?

If your wife chooses to move back to BKK, as you suggest, sell the property in Australia, and put the proceeds into fixed interest (bank) in Thailand. Make that several banks, operating on the old philosophy that you don't put all your eggs in one basket. There's no need to do anything risky with it, just fixed interest.

Will that give her enough income to hire help several days a week? Will it give her enough to have live in help? Work on a conservative 3% return, so you'd need A$100,000 invested for a return of $60.00 per week, without diminishing capital. With several hundred thousand $$ invested, there could be a good enough income to cover expenses for a good life. If you work on a diminishing capital, there is even more available, up to 10% of the invested amount, depending on life expectancy, so A$300,000, it could be as good as A$30,000, $600 peer week!! That's a LOT of money in Thailand.

Are there suitable aged care facilities in BKK? If so, sell both properties, invest, and use the income to maintain her in that facility.

There are tables available, probably on the internet also, but certainly through banks and financial advisers, that will cover different return scenarios, straight interest, interest plus diminishing capital, age at which she starts drawing down, etc., for a sufficient return to live with dignity.

She may need to appoint a Power of Attorney, and family seems unreliable, so perhaps a lawyer. That may be a problem!! Is there an equivalent of the Public Trustee available in Thailand?

My old man had a line, "Where there's a will, there's a welative", and there's a lot of truth in that, so be careful, and in view of what you've said regarding her family, a family member may not be a good PoA.

Lastly, clarity will come if you use a spreadsheet, just hand drawn (no fancy computer stuff), with each possible scenario at the top of the page, and all considerations and contingencies down the page. What seemed an almost insurmountable issue will take on simplicity.

Good luck.

Edited October 7, 2013 by F4UCorsair

[chuenyongman]

Please think about leaving a will as well as doing the other things. one never knows what is around the corner.

[chubby]

create a living trust, and a 3rd party as trustee, then they can just get a translator, and some montly stipend to BBL NY branch ?

on long term care insurance, it is probably too pricy, if one has not signed up before they are too 'aged'

Structure your will and assets so as to ensure on going support for your wife and this may include the future need to fund long term care. The financial arrangements are probably best arranged outside Thailand .

That above is my general thinking also, though we're a few years younger than most of the folks posting here above.

The challenge, though, is how exactly to accomplish the good goal you mention here.

I'd like to structure my/our finances in the future in a way that, after my passing, gives her free cash for her needs, but more importantly, a guaranteed monthly source of income for her life.

I know how to handle that for myself, but I'm reasonably sophisticated about financial matters, whereas my wife is not. I'd like to set things up for her so that they'll basically run on auto pilot for the most part after I'm gone, in the event I go first.

One potential method for that is an annuity/annuities... But I'm not clear on just how that would work for financial products purchased in my home country, but paid out to someone in a different country of Thai citizenship. Annuities also have some risks to principal that I'm not too excited about.

Another method would be potentially inheriting my IRA type investments in my home country. But I'm not sure my wife would know how to handle those even at the simplest level. And then, again, you have the issue of income originating in my home country and needing to end up arriving here for her.

The thought of trusting her future nest egg with any financial advisor or provider here in Thailand, or trusting them to manage finances well for her after I'm gone, is pretty frightening prospect. I can't see us going down that road.

So how best get this done???

[RoboLB]

Hi Robol

You are only 57 mate you got a long way to go, wait till you are 75 at least and go from there, just enjoy your selves. I am 72 and I have never thought about it, my wife has our house and little shop and plenty relations but my old Dad used to say to me, never trust relatives and never lend them money or give them a job, they will shit on you. It is quite true with some of the things I have seen and heard what relatives can do, you pop off and they all come out of the woodwork.

But I will put my couple cents in. You say she has dual citizenship which is true if she has Aussie passport. I would personally make my goal to live in Aussie when the time came as she will or should have the facilities available to her and you if you age well together and settle in a home care place up in the North Aussie for warmth. In these places you would make good friends and if you go first I do not think your wife would be lonely. Stop worrying now your to young just enjoy. Best of luck and Long Life.

Thanks for sharing the advice and thoughts guys.

Re the relatives popping up out of the woodwork, that is precisely what worries me. I have seen what happens when elderly relatives have died in Thailand or are near dying. It's a feeding frenzy. Not pretty at all. Just don't want my wife to get taken advantage off in her old age.

But Yes for now, we should enjoy life. More ! :-)

[RoboLB]

Please think about leaving a will as well as doing the other things. one never knows what is around the corner.

Sound advice. We are both updating ours soon. I've seen the nightmares when people don't have a will!

[lopburi3]

Flame removed.