Will (can) Hybrids have a future in the LOS auto market?

[thailoht]

Keeping in mind the personal wealth of the consumers in the LOS market place, when Mitsubishi comes out with their next generational lineup of Hybrid PPVs (due out in 3 more years?), can you see that technology catching on here in LOS with its not (consumer) cheap and not in abundance electrical system?

Can you visualize everyone here plugging in their new (come get your rebate?) Hybrid and the affect it will have on the electrical grid here in LOS?

[anon210]

The Hybrid PPV generally function with batteries recharged by energy generation when braking or through the petrol motor. So, if anything, this should reduce the costs of gas, and the effect on the electrical grid will be inexisting. I believe there might be a confusion with fully electric cars such as the Tesla S which need indeed to be recharged.

Edit: I see that the future PPV of Mitsu with be a "PHEV" (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle), which seems to open the possibility for recharging the car...

And BTW, here goes the first picture of the future PPV (sorry it is in French):

http://news.autoplus.fr/news/1475863/Tokyo-2013-Concept-SUV-Mitsubishi-Concept-AR

[thailoht]

The Hybrid PPV generally function with batteries recharged by energy generation when braking or through the petrol motor. So, if anything, this should reduce the costs of gas, and the effect on the electrical grid will be nonexistent. I believe there might be a confusion with fully electric cars such as the Tesla S which need indeed to be recharged.

Edit: I see that the future PPV of Mitsu with be a "PHEV" (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle), which seems to open the possibility for recharging the car...

And BTW, here goes the first picture of the future PPV (sorry it is in French):

http://news.autoplus.fr/news/1475863/Tokyo-2013-Concept-SUV-Mitsubishi-Concept-AR

I was thinking of Hybrids as being like the Chevrolet Volt, a plug-in type hybrid electric vehicle and the vehicle you mentioned in your 'Edit:'.

After your post, I now see there are two separate classifications that just happen to have come together in the Volt: Electrical and Hybrid (as you have defined).

So, I guess I am referring to 'plug-in' vehicles like the Tesla S and the Chevy Volt. Qui?

[VocalNeal]

Well 2013 Prius has a plug in option in some countries. But for some reason? It is not the one available here!

IN LOS the hybrid option for avoiding the excise duty seems to be used for extra HP not for saving fuel etc. So it is viewed as a "shiny" or magpie option not necessarily as a "green" option.

[anon210]

The Hybrid PPV generally function with batteries recharged by energy generation when braking or through the petrol motor. So, if anything, this should reduce the costs of gas, and the effect on the electrical grid will be nonexistent. I believe there might be a confusion with fully electric cars such as the Tesla S which need indeed to be recharged.

Edit: I see that the future PPV of Mitsu with be a "PHEV" (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle), which seems to open the possibility for recharging the car...

And BTW, here goes the first picture of the future PPV (sorry it is in French):

http://news.autoplus.fr/news/1475863/Tokyo-2013-Concept-SUV-Mitsubishi-Concept-AR

I was thinking of Hybrids as being like the Chevrolet Volt, a plug-in type hybrid electric vehicle and the vehicle you mentioned in your 'Edit:'.

After your post, I now see there are two separate classifications that just happen to have come together in the Volt: Electrical and Hybrid (as you have defined).

So, I guess I am referring to 'plug-in' vehicles like the Tesla S and the Chevy Volt. Qui?

Technically speaking, the majority of the consumption of electricity to provide "plug-in" cars would take place during the night, when there is a mechanical decrease of consumption from other ends (offices shut down aircon, etc). This being Thailand, this might not necessarily be true. Would these cars be even manufactured here? I believe most of the mechanics in Thailand would be clueless for repairs!

[IMHO]

The Hybrid PPV generally function with batteries recharged by energy generation when braking or through the petrol motor. So, if anything, this should reduce the costs of gas, and the effect on the electrical grid will be inexisting. I believe there might be a confusion with fully electric cars such as the Tesla S which need indeed to be recharged.

Edit: I see that the future PPV of Mitsu with be a "PHEV" (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle), which seems to open the possibility for recharging the car...

And BTW, here goes the first picture of the future PPV (sorry it is in French):

http://news.autoplus.fr/news/1475863/Tokyo-2013-Concept-SUV-Mitsubishi-Concept-AR

Actually, the GR-HEV concept (Diesel Electric Hybrid) is the one to reference for Triton & Pajero Sport.

[IMHO]

The Hybrid PPV generally function with batteries recharged by energy generation when braking or through the petrol motor. So, if anything, this should reduce the costs of gas, and the effect on the electrical grid will be nonexistent. I believe there might be a confusion with fully electric cars such as the Tesla S which need indeed to be recharged.

Edit: I see that the future PPV of Mitsu with be a "PHEV" (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle), which seems to open the possibility for recharging the car...

And BTW, here goes the first picture of the future PPV (sorry it is in French):

http://news.autoplus.fr/news/1475863/Tokyo-2013-Concept-SUV-Mitsubishi-Concept-AR

I was thinking of Hybrids as being like the Chevrolet Volt, a plug-in type hybrid electric vehicle and the vehicle you mentioned in your 'Edit:'.

After your post, I now see there are two separate classifications that just happen to have come together in the Volt: Electrical and Hybrid (as you have defined).

So, I guess I am referring to 'plug-in' vehicles like the Tesla S and the Chevy Volt. Qui?

There are actually 3 main types (with sub-types) of Hybrid:

Standard Hybrid - Primary power is the combustion engine, with electric assistance. No external charging.

Plug-in Hybrid - Primary power is the electric motor at low speeds and limited range, switching to combustion for higher speeds, and when charge levels drop. Able to be charged by via plug-in charger.

Range Extender Hybrid - Primary power is always the electric motor, with the combustion engine acting only as a battery charger. Also able to be charged via plug-in. Essentially an EV with a genset..

The Standard Hybrid is the cheapest to manufacture, and the most logical option for TH. Coupled with an efficient turbo diesel, it will achieve ~25% better FE compared to the best of todays Pickups and PPV's.

[mogandave]

What if you had an adaptor that would allow you to plug the hybrid into the cigarette lighter? You could drive forever!

[VocalNeal]

Standard Hybrid - Primary power is the combustion engine, with electric assistance. No external charging.

So pretty much useless as a green car. Used here as I said for HP improvement to avoid the over 200hp excise tax.

At the risk of getting too logical, which I admit is not always popular here. The new F1 MGU unit attached to the turbo is going the same route as the old piston engine aircraft where fuel was injected into the turbo to give extra thrust. Eventually the piston engine did nothing except provide air for the turbo so piston engines died and "jet" engines took over. So following the same pattern F1 cars will become powered by a small constant speed turbine that turns a generator which provides electricity for traction.

[Retro Reactive]

That be great to get another 25% fuel savings on account of the electric hybrid system, that will be rolled out likely in the midlife facelift. Yet as Mitsubishi seem to implement yearly micro changes could be any year, read a few articles suggesting they were going to launch the triton with solely diesel powerplant and then eventually release the hybrid option. Will keep my sights on any news regarding Pjs successor, Imv2 ppv from toyota, and the ford everest.

[mogandave]

You need to know what the total cost of the hybrid option is, and how much fuel you will use to determine whether or not a 25% fuel savings makes it worth buying.

[IMHO]

Standard Hybrid - Primary power is the combustion engine, with electric assistance. No external charging.

So pretty much useless as a green car. Used here as I said for HP improvement to avoid the over 200hp excise tax.

At the risk of getting too logical, which I admit is not always popular here. The new F1 MGU unit attached to the turbo is going the same route as the old piston engine aircraft where fuel was injected into the turbo to give extra thrust. Eventually the piston engine did nothing except provide air for the turbo so piston engines died and "jet" engines took over. So following the same pattern F1 cars will become powered by a small constant speed turbine that turns a generator which provides electricity for traction.

Depends on the implementation. Designs that are able to make efficient use of regenerative braking for charging are able to get a lot/most/all of their charging done under braking, so essentially free electricity. Ones that are able to do 'sailing' (run in pure EV mode at highway cruising speeds like the Porsche system) are also able to save fuel in all driving scenarios, not just heavy traffic like the Toyota/Honda systems.

Systems like Honda's IMA are very weak, and not able to run in a pure "EV' Mode. Toyota's HSD is able to run in EV mode at low speeds, while the Porsche system is able to run in pure EV mode up to 160km/hr.

Not all standard hybrids are equal...

As you go from standard hybrid, to plug-in, to range extender, the production costs increase exponentially, so given the tax structure in TH anything other than standard hybrid is just going to price it out of the market right now.

I agree that the ultimate future is range extenders.

Either way, Hybrid is happening. Pretty much all of the major manufacturers have committed to having at least 50% of their passenger models available with some type of electric power by 2015.

[BSJ]

The take up of Hybrids has been so low so far....it's hard to imagine any manufacturer actively pursuing Hybrids only despite government tax breaks for the consumer....and probably the manufacturer.

But as pointed out there are Hybrids and Hybrids! Porsche seemed to have nailed it first time out.

[mogandave]

Or mandates...

[Jitar]

There was an interesting segment on 5th gear recently comparing a BMW 5 series and the hybrid version. The conclusion was the Hybrids extra weight sucked up the extra power so performance was about the same. The Hybrid's extra purchase cost outweighed the potential fuel and pollution tax saving, at least for their UK cost base.

OK hybrids are not all equal and Thailand has a different cost structure with high import taxes so upper market hybrids like the Porsche may make more sense. Hybrids still have further to go to for mid market cars, unless you want to pay to pollute the environment less. Sjonburi's post in http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/672327-camry-20g-vs-25g/ quoted headlight magazine fuel consumption for Camry 2.5 and 2.5 Hybrid at 14.5 and 18.5 km/l. The extra cost for the hybrid (150,000 Bt) would take 260,000 km to recover, not including battery issues. I hope the next gen PPV versions can do better than that.

Hybrid development is being driven by increasing fuel economy and emission requirements, not running or purchase cost. The US seem keen on hybrids, hence the majority are petrol fueled. Europeans are more interested in high efficiency clean diesels. It's gonna be interesting to see what works in the rest of the world over the next few years.

[IMHO]

The take up of Hybrids has been so low so far....it's hard to imagine any manufacturer actively pursuing Hybrids only despite government tax breaks for the consumer....and probably the manufacturer.

But as pointed out there are Hybrids and Hybrids! Porsche seemed to have nailed it first time out.

Thailands current excise tax system makes a very solid case for hybrids that have HP, or large combustion engines. Point in case is the Cayenne and Panamera Hybrids, which attract just 11% in excise and interior taxes, vs the 111% they'd get if they weren't hybrid - in both cases the hybrid version is *millions* of Baht cheaper than the next nearest non-hydrid model.

At the lower end of the scale, cars like the Jazz Hybrid only save around 20% in total taxes compared to their non-hybrid counterpart, so the hybrid still ends up more expensive.

If the proposed 2016 tax changes stay as-is, there will be a slightly better case for small capacity hybrids though - not enough to level them with non-hybrid models, but much closer in price.

[sjonburi]

Further to this I think the general concept of hybrid drivers who according some forum member are portrayed as Soy Milk drinking, Greenpeace activists is slowly moving towards something I would call "Eco-Performance" oriented drivers who prefer a surplus of power on the tap combined with eco-car-like fuel consumption. Take for instance the recently tested Beemer ActiveHybrid 3., This is downright a fast car (340 HP, 450 NM 1250-5000 rpm and 80-120 km/h in only 4.3 sec) while still being able to achieve 16.5 km/l on average. To be honest the 328i is not too far behind in f/c and performance and it is a solid 1 Million THB cheaper..

Another interesting technology borrowed from F1 is the upcoming K.E.R.S. flywheel developed by Volvo: http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/auto-blog/Volvo-Demonstrates-KERS-system-15682389

Altogether I think in Thailand there's a bright future for diesel / gasoline powered hybrids

Some pics of the ActiveHybrid 3 test from my favourite Thai motoring blog: (after TV of course )

0-100 km/h and 80-120 km/h:

Fuel consumption based on 94.5 km trip (urban / extra-urban)

There was an interesting segment on 5th gear recently comparing a BMW 5 series and the hybrid version. The conclusion was the Hybrids extra weight sucked up the extra power so performance was about the same. The Hybrid's extra purchase cost outweighed the potential fuel and pollution tax saving, at least for their UK cost base.

OK hybrids are not all equal and Thailand has a different cost structure with high import taxes so upper market hybrids like the Porsche may make more sense. Hybrids still have further to go to for mid market cars, unless you want to pay to pollute the environment less. Sjonburi's post in http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/672327-camry-20g-vs-25g/ quoted headlight magazine fuel consumption for Camry 2.5 and 2.5 Hybrid at 14.5 and 18.5 km/l. The extra cost for the hybrid (150,000 Bt) would take 260,000 km to recover, not including battery issues. I hope the next gen PPV versions can do better than that.

Hybrid development is being driven by increasing fuel economy and emission requirements, not running or purchase cost. The US seem keen on hybrids, hence the majority are petrol fueled. Europeans are more interested in high efficiency clean diesels. It's gonna be interesting to see what works in the rest of the world over the next few years.

[VocalNeal]

^ missing form the above because not available here is the 330d 0-100kph is less 6 seconds and about 17.5 kpl.

I think it is the US driving (pardon the pun) hybrids as diesel seems to be like satan there?

Sad that Ford stopped offering the Focus TDI here and where are the Japanese diesels?

[sjonburi]

Mazda CX-5 2.2 D SkyActiv coming soon.. maybe Honda will follow with its brilliant 2.2 i-DTEC..

^ missing form the above because not available here is the 330d 0-100kph is less 6 seconds and about 17.5 kpl.

I think it is the US driving (pardon the pun) hybrids as diesel seems to be like satan there?

Sad that Ford stopped offering the Focus TDI here and where are the Japanese diesels?

[Ace of Pop]

2.2. I.DTEC. Now thats a Nice Engine. So much room to Power Boost.

[ignis]

Back to Hybrids in Thailand. the main problem is LPG or CNG...... can Hybrids also have this ?

Just appear that a Thai mind set is car must have LPG or CNG... so would a Hybrid be cheaper to run than fitting LPG or CNG ?? bearing in mind the cost of said car and system ........

LPG or CNG fitted to 660cc and many cars up, why a 660cc or 1100cc need gas is beyond me... but then why someone that can buy a 'S' class, or a '7' series and then add gas is also baffling .. almost forgot also 350cc Tuk Tuks with LPG

[mogandave]

If hybrids were economically viable, every taxi would be a hybrid, as would every commercial bus and truck.

Did anyone notice how quickly all the buses and major truck line converted to LPG/CNG when the diesel price skyrocketed?

[Gomyway]

There's nothing cheaper in f/c and also quicker then a DIESEL - maybe you'll take a look at the AUDI's in Le Mans...

Just my 2ct.

[eaustev]

There's nothing cheaper in f/c and also quicker then a DIESEL - maybe you'll take a look at the AUDI's in Le Mans...

Just my 2ct.

Not sure of the relevance but the Audi LeMans racers are diesel hybrids, so I guess a bet both ways!!

[Jitar]

The Porsche 918 Hybrid apparently is quick and economical.

Porsche claim a European standard fuel consumption figure of 3.3 L/100km !

Not bad for a 887hp V8.

YMMV depending on diving style.

[muratremix]

While CNG is pretty darn cheap, there is no chance hybrids will take over. Battery tech is expensive and heavy, period.

[thailoht]

While CNG is pretty darn cheap, there is no chance hybrids will take over. Battery tech is expensive and heavy, period.

The Hybrid PPV generally function with batteries recharged by energy generation when braking or through the petrol motor. So, if anything, this should reduce the costs of gas, and the effect on the electrical grid will be nonexistent. I believe there might be a confusion with fully electric cars such as the Tesla S which need indeed to be recharged.

Edit: I see that the future PPV of Mitsu with be a "PHEV" (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle), which seems to open the possibility for recharging the car...

And BTW, here goes the first picture of the future PPV (sorry it is in French):

http://news.autoplus.fr/news/1475863/Tokyo-2013-Concept-SUV-Mitsubishi-Concept-AR

I was thinking of Hybrids as being like the Chevrolet Volt, a plug-in type hybrid electric vehicle and the vehicle you mentioned in your 'Edit:'.

After your post, I now see there are two separate classifications that just happen to have come together in the Volt: Electrical and Hybrid (as you have defined).

So, I guess I am referring to 'plug-in' vehicles like the Tesla S and the Chevy Volt. Qui?

There are actually 3 main types (with sub-types) of Hybrid:

Standard Hybrid - Primary power is the combustion engine, with electric assistance. No external charging.

Plug-in Hybrid - Primary power is the electric motor at low speeds and limited range, switching to combustion for higher speeds, and when charge levels drop. Able to be charged by via plug-in charger.

Range Extender Hybrid - Primary power is always the electric motor, with the combustion engine acting only as a battery charger. Also able to be charged via plug-in. Essentially an EV with a genset..

The Standard Hybrid is the cheapest to manufacture, and the most logical option for TH. Coupled with an efficient turbo diesel, it will achieve ~25% better FE compared to the best of todays Pickups and PPV's.

All of these potential 'Hybrid' options have to be filtered through the Thai government's perspective - so it's anybody's game.

Looking at the broader view, can I step out on the proverbial limb and state that Hydrogen cells are the best and sought after 'ultimate transportation solution' to replace the current depleting and environment destroying fossil fuel based transportation that we have today and that Hybrids or whatever 'comes next' only serves as a stepping stone to that end?

[mogandave]

What about all the engines that burn water? Sooner or later one of the patents the oil companies hold will expire, and fuel will be virtually free!

[IMHO]

All of these potential 'Hybrid' options have to be filtered through the Thai government's perspective - so it's anybody's game.

Looking at the broader view, can I step out on the proverbial limb and state that Hydrogen cells are the best and sought after 'ultimate transportation solution' to replace the current depleting and environment destroying fossil fuel based transportation that we have today and that Hybrids or whatever 'comes next' only serves as a stepping stone to that end?

Most Hydrogen powered systems that have been tried so far are range extender hybrids - the hydrogen is used to generate electricity which it then used to power the car. There have been a few hydrogen powered straight combustion engine powered concepts in the past, but AFAIK these have all been dropped in favor of the hybrid range extender style system.

As for Thai taxation system, the definition of Hybrid is a car powered by both combustion and electricity. Taxes for hybrids are the same a straight EV's, so there's no gray area to fight over - so long as the car has an electric motor that does propulsion, it will fit the definition for reduced taxes.

[IMHO]

What about all the engines that burn water? Sooner or later one of the patents the oil companies hold will expire, and fuel will be virtually free!

Got a link to one of those patents?