It doesn't get "better" for the gay AND fat?

[Jingthing]

It's not just gay and fat.

It's gay and not the right clothes, the right color, the right age, the right income group, etc.

I guess it's no secret that gay people are so often very unkind to each other.

It is not only about oppression from non-gay people.

OK, yes, fat gay people can choose to self identify as "bears" and I suppose that works for some people, but where is the space of real inclusion and acceptance for fat gay people who just can't relate to the bear box?

Also I think some might read this article that the author is complaining that fit gay people don't want to sex it with him. I think that's a superficial reading of the problem.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/louispeitzman/it-gets-better-unless-youre-fat

From the beginning, the “It Gets Better” campaign has been fairly criticized for its limited scope: Yes, it does get better, provided you’re an attractive, able-bodied white cisman. I want to be clear — it has gotten better for me since I came out. I don’t for a minute regret being an openly gay man, and I consider my life now to be a drastic improvement over life in the closet. At the same time, I can’t help but grimace at the “it gets better” trope for the way it glosses over so many problems within the gay community. Just because it gets marginally better doesn’t mean it ever gets good enough.

The internalized shame I feel about my weight is largely a credit to society, where all fat people are treated like second-class citizens. But adulthood should be about repairing those wounds and learning to love myself as I am. Instead, I’m surrounded by people who, despite having faced the same oppression I have as gay men, largely refuse to embrace me at my current size. The end result is that I’ve been out for nearly a decade, and I still feel like an outcast within the gay community. I wish I had faith in that getting better any time soon.

Another link related to this issue, which I think might be a first for this forum.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/10/14/body_image_issues_a_straight_women_and_a_gay_man_discuss.html

Edited October 14, 2013 by Jingthing

[Swiss1960]

Jingthing, I normally like your posts, but this one... what is the difference when you do a "change-all" from gay to heterosexual? => nothing... cause this is not at all gay related... (note: did not read the link included)

[Dr Robert]

This a problem for all three genders, one promulgated by the media and photoshop and the pervasive youth culture obsession that permeates all of our lives -to be an object of beauty and sexual desire. Those who seem perfect in weight height and good looks suffer the same insecurities.

A successful life is not truly predicated on these notions of physical attractiveness, but on self love and empathy and intelligence and education and kindness and compassion and decency and helping others and...and...people of all genders are cruel to each other for whatever unfathomable reason.

Fat is a subjective pejorative ugly word which can be dismissed with a wave of the wand grown from the tree of self esteem. Plant the seed Jingthing, watch it grow.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Dr Robert

[orchis]

It's a niche market I suppose.

[LeCharivari]

This a problem for all three genders, one promulgated by the media and photoshop and the pervasive youth culture obsession that permeates all of our lives -to be an object of beauty and sexual desire. Those who seem perfect in weight height and good looks suffer the same insecurities.

A successful life is not truly predicated on these notions of physical attractiveness, but on self love and empathy and intelligence and education and kindness and compassion and decency and helping others and...and...people of all genders are cruel to each other for whatever unfathomable reason.

Fat is a subjective pejorative ugly word which can be dismissed with a wave of the wand grown from the tree of self esteem. Plant the seed Jingthing, watch it grow.

"Fat is a subjective pejorative ugly word which can be dismissed with a wave of the wand grown from the tree of self esteem."

Pejorative and ugly, quite possibly. Subjective - no.

Fat is fat: from overweight to obese, its an objective category whether someone is male, female, gay or transgender.

Most of us are never going to be objects of beauty and sexual desire regardless of whether that's to the opposite sex if we're straight or to the same sex if we're gay and there's only a limited amount we can do to change that. Fat is physically unattractive to most people and sexual preference has nothing to do with that. Any suggestion that gays should be more "accepting" of fat gay people than their straight counterparts are of fat straight people is as odd, to me, as the suggestion that we should be more accepting of people who don't wash or brush their teeth just because they are gay - we've got an accident of birth in common, nothing more.

In the same vein that doesn't mean that fat gay people are going to be rejected sexually (or generally) any more than fat straight people - just that they (we?) have to make up for it in other ways. Some people may be rejected by others because they're gay, others because they're fat. True enough, some people are unpleasant and cruel and that'll probably never change - but if those same people are rejected wherever they go, by whoever they meet, maybe they need to stop making excuses for themselves.

[LeCharivari]

This a problem for all three genders, one promulgated by the media and photoshop and the pervasive youth culture obsession that permeates all of our lives -to be an object of beauty and sexual desire. Those who seem perfect in weight height and good looks suffer the same insecurities.

A successful life is not truly predicated on these notions of physical attractiveness, but on self love and empathy and intelligence and education and kindness and compassion and decency and helping others and...and...people of all genders are cruel to each other for whatever unfathomable reason.

Fat is a subjective pejorative ugly word which can be dismissed with a wave of the wand grown from the tree of self esteem. Plant the seed Jingthing, watch it grow.

"This a problem for all three genders"

Three genders?

In an effort to be politically correct this pigeon-holing and lumping together of anyone who does not fit into the "traditional" male or female gender classification as a "third gender" does no-one any favours. Male to female transexuals are obviously NOT the same gender as female to male transexuals and neither is the same gender as someone who is androgynous, neither do any of those whom I have ever met want to be seen as a "third gender" and most find the term offensive. There is no "third gender" and while its use may be understood and widely used in Pattaya it led directly to the rejection of the same-sex marriage bill when it was first proposed in Thailand not too long ago. There are two "genders" (male and female) and a number of people who fit into neither category - that doesn't make them a "third" gender.

[isanbirder]

Where are all the chubby-chasers gone?

Obesity, whether avoidable or not, is a short cut to ill health, and while obese people may deserve our sympathy, they will not generally be found sexually attractive. But that's nothing to do with gay or straight.

[LeCharivari]

Not just unhealthy, IB.

Why should I sympathise with someone who not only takes up two seats on a plane and uses more fuel (which I pay for) but who overflows onto the neighbouring seats? ... and how can fat be sexy when they can't actually see what they're doing and they can't do some things anyway? That doesn't stop them being great people (and, for some, possibly great sex), but it really does stop them being sexy.

I haven't got anything against fat people (and I hate to say that "some of my friends are fat", but they are) but I have got something against anyone who wallows in self-pity and looks for any excuse to justify their rejection. Whether its "everyone hates me because I'm gay" or "everyone hates me because I'm fat" (or black, or white , muslim, asian, etc, etc) doesn't seem to matter - why can't these people accept that while some do (usually those who don't know them), if the vast majority who know them still reject them and don't want to know them its because of who they are, not because of who we are?

[isanbirder]

I can't resist quoting this from a blog in the Guardian, though it's not about gays:--

I'm a slim, 31-year-old woman attracted to older, obese men – the uglier the better. I fantasise about being passed around by several of them. The thing that really turns me on is the idea of having to lift their stomachs and search for their penises, which are always difficult to find and a bit on the soft side. I haven't mentioned this to my fiance, because I think he would be horrified. Our sex life is fine, but I use the fantasy to help me climax. I feel guilty – what made me so sick?

[Fookhaht]

I can't resist quoting this from a blog in the Guardian, though it's not about gays:--

I'm a slim, 31-year-old woman attracted to older, obese men – the uglier the better. I fantasise about being passed around by several of them. The thing that really turns me on is the idea of having to lift their stomachs and search for their penises, which are always difficult to find and a bit on the soft side. I haven't mentioned this to my fiance, because I think he would be horrified. Our sex life is fine, but I use the fantasy to help me climax. I feel guilty – what made me so sick?

Too much information.

Sent from my tin can via string.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Fookhaht

[Fookhaht]

-

Edited October 17, 2013 by Fookhaht

[Dr Robert]

The full spectrum of human behaviours, especially sexual, never cease to fascinate me. Just when I thought I had heard it all, something like our friends story above comes along and bang..jaw dropping, but beautiful at the same time...

[Jingthing]

I think there are specific issues relating to gay men and fat that are unique to gay people. I realize some posters here totally reject the idea of gay people as a "community" or identity group. I don't see the point in arguing that 1000 times here, on a forum explicitly labelled GAY already! Positions are already clear on that. I feel many of the comments here are about that tired old conflict and not about the topic I proposed as a discussion point in the O.P. Which is why I have not responded to them, in case you were wondering, and won't. Oh well!

Be clear I am not suggesting people shouldn't be free to hijack this thread into the gay people aren't an identity group meme and there is nothing different about us, fat gay is the same as all other fat people, blah blah blah, that's your choice, it's just not the intention I had when opening the thread and is of NO interest to me personally.

BTW, I think there are some interesting parallels between being gay and being fat in societies. As with gay people, fat people are often judged as immoral, not in control of their baser instincts (food maniacs vs. sex maniacs), as "choosing" to be fat, etc. So it's interesting to me how an "out" group like fat people is treated by a minority group like gay people and clearly -- with limited compassion and understanding.

There are also closet issues with fat people. Most gay people can manage to closet themselves to some or total degrees if they want to, or often need to for survival. Fat people are visible but they CAN closet themselves by isolating from society, which many do, and many feel pressured to do.

I also think being gay and fat in Thailand is quite a bit different than being gay and fat in the West. That could be an interesting area of discussion as well, in case anyone is interested.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Jingthing

[isanbirder]

I'm sorry to hi-jack your thread with an irrelevant post, Jingthing (as I admitted at the time). I thought most people would appreciate a spot of Hogarthian humour.

Sometimes I think we all take ourselves too seriously. (and that's not only gays either)

[Scott]

For those interested in the '3rd sex', there is this topic in the World News Section:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/674944-third-sex-becomes-a-political-force/

[Jingthing]

This link gets closer to the area of this issue that I was driving at. So much of the world is homophobic. Yet the targets of this homophobia, gay men, so many of us are unfairly hostile towards fat people, yes, with a definition of "fat" also being absurdly inflexible. Seriously, I really do think the majority of western gay people (those who identify with gay as a group identity) don't really feel "fat" gay people really belong as first class members of said community. Obviously, liberal and inclusive person that I am, I think that's very messed up.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/zach-stafford/can-we-stop-using-the-fat_b_1773064.html

The reasons for this high rate of eating disorders are currently being debated. The problem is being blamed on what I say above, gay culture and beauty ideals, while others think it is caused by possible trauma or bullying in adolescence. Beyond the whys and hows of gay men and eating disorders, I think we, as a community, should really think about this fact and then reflect on the fatphobic arguments many of us are throwing at these "simple" anti-gay people who are overweight. Why are we perpetuating hate onto one group, even when they may be throwing some onto us? Have we not learned that golden lesson that two wrongs don't make a right? By continuing to throw the anti-fat rhetoric at the folks at Chick-fil-A, or at the Southern Man whose belly is not your six-pack, we are not only being jerks to people for something that they may or may not be able to control, we are also isolating and attacking people within our own community.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I'm sorry to hi-jack your thread with an irrelevant post, Jingthing (as I admitted at the time). I thought most people would appreciate a spot of Hogarthian humour.

Sometimes I think we all take ourselves too seriously. (and that's not only gays either)

No need to apologize. I didn't mind your colorful item. I can't control how people are going to respond to posts that I start. I don't have fully formed opinions about this issue myself. I did feel I should explain why I hadn't responded before.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Jingthing

[Scott]

I have to confess that I am sometimes not very nice, or understanding or sympathetic to people who are fat. I also often feel quite guilty about it.

[LeCharivari]

I have to confess that I am sometimes not very nice, or understanding or sympathetic to people who are fat. I also often feel quite guilty about it.

I don't see why you or anyone else should feel guilty - its not like being gay, black, etc, and its not as if you hate them or go out of your way to avoid or antagonise fat people.

Unlike being gay, its their choice, at least in 99% of cases, so while its one thing to be homophobic, racist, etc, and to lack sympathy/empathy for them, why should we either as gays or as anybody else feel sympathy for someone who has nothing wrong with them except by their own choice - particularly if and when it affects us, as fat people's size often does? I have no problems making way for someone who's pregnant or finding a way round them if they are blocking the way, but why should I have be inconvenienced by someone whose stomach is in the way? I may feel sympathy with someone who is disabled or handicapped, although the one thing most of them don't want is sympathy or extra consideration (unlike many fat people), but why for someone who is just fat?

Gay people are the same as anyone else - fat and thin, short and tall, old and young, sexy and ... well, not sexy, interesting and boring, worth making friends and best avoided. If gay fat people feel rejected more than people who are "just" gay or "just" fat its probably because they are - after all, they're facing not only prejudice on the gay front but antipathy on the other, just like someone who is gay and has halitosis ... and in just the same way they can do something about it. They can't do anything about being gay other than either avoid the prejudiced or confront them, but they can do something about being fat: they can either lose weight and become more visually and physically acceptable, take up less room, not get in the way so much, etc or they can make up for it in other ways - by being funny, entertaining, fun to be with, a good cook, great host, well read, etc.

Its not just about losing weight - there are other options to becoming more "acceptable", liked, popular, etc, gay or straight, but some people just prefer to hang on to their excuses.

[Jingthing]

...

Unlike being gay, its their choice, at least in 99% of cases, so while its one thing to be homophobic, racist, etc, and to lack sympathy/empathy for them, why should we either as gays or as anybody else feel sympathy for someone who has nothing wrong with them except by their own choice - particularly if and when it affects us, as fat people's size often does?

...

A little glimpse into history:

Obesity experts said Taft’s experience highlights how very difficult it is for many fat people to lose substantial amounts of weight and keep it off, and how little progress has been made in finding a combination of foods that lead to permanent weight loss.

“Maybe we are looking for something that doesn’t exist,” said David B. Allison, the director of the Nutrition Obesity Research Center at the University of Alabama at Birmingham

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/15/health/in-struggle-with-weight-william-howard-taft-used-a-modern-diet.html?_r=0

Edited October 17, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

For those interested in the '3rd sex', there is this topic in the World News Section:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/674944-third-sex-becomes-a-political-force/

Thanks for that - interesting news.

[Scott]

I feel guilty about my attitude toward fat people because I am quite often wrong. I make catty remarks, I discount what they say and then later I find out they are really quite a nice person or quite a compassionate person with an eating disorder.

It's not that hard to take the 2 seconds it takes to look past any physical characteristic to see what else might be there. When I don't do that, I feel guilty.

[isanbirder]

I feel guilty about my attitude toward fat people because I am quite often wrong. I make catty remarks, I discount what they say and then later I find out they are really quite a nice person or quite a compassionate person with an eating disorder.

It's not that hard to take the 2 seconds it takes to look past any physical characteristic to see what else might be there. When I don't do that, I feel guilty.

I used to feel guilty, but I don't so much now. When I was young, fat people were comparatively uncommon, at least in England where I grew up. We knew then that the poor things couldn't help it. Our next door neighbour, a very nice lady but there was rather a lot of her, once got stuck in the bath, and had to call the fire service to get her out.

But now it's different. Obesity is common in many Western countries, including US and UK, and most of it is not caused by illness or metabolic dysfunctions. So why should I sympathise with people for a condition which they have brought on themselves?

As LeC said, fat people can and should compensate by being attractive in a different way. We all have weaknesses, mostly not so visibly striking, and we all devise strategies to overcome them.

[ToddWeston]

I don't think is unfair to judge the vast majority of people who are obese, it's in our nature to judge and I don't feel guilty when I pass judgement on someone sitting at Swensons who I would consider obese. I do sympathise when I see a large person at a salad bar I feel they are making an effort.

Medical obesity is another topic and I have family who struggle hourly trying to maintain their weight and it is more than what's in our food chain for certain people (a very small percentile) I've never struggled with weight gain or loss so I can only imagine the challenges for some.

I do find it interesting how we've shunned smokers into being social outcasts yet we're told to be sympathetic to true gorgers who make no attempt in achieving a healthy lifestyle when obesity costs more medically than all smoking related disease.

I also wonder why we allow corpulent folks on our screen - I understand it would be full blown racism to only allow pretty skinny types but if you've ever seen a USA show called Mike and Molly these people IMO shouldn't be allowed on television without addressing serious weight loss when in fact they like fun at weight gain.

I'm saying those that are able to try should be encouraged and those that are just fat and demand extra space on a plane or pour over to my side on the BTS I'm less than impressed.

As for the gay bear who doesn't have anyone to hibernate with - try sticking to the label of being fat and leave the gay tag alone whilst you shed a few kilos.

[wornoutcowboy]

I have a very heavy British friend living in Bangkok who complains that he is discriminated in the gay world for being fat. The funny thing about this is he once told me he didn't enjoy sex with fat people either. I suspect that is true for most of us. So, why would anyone want to have sex with a chubby when the chubby doesn't even want to have sex with another fat person? I know there are chubby chasers out there and if I were fat I would seek out these guys.

[LeCharivari]

I feel guilty about my attitude toward fat people because I am quite often wrong. I make catty remarks, I discount what they say and then later I find out they are really quite a nice person or quite a compassionate person with an eating disorder.

It's not that hard to take the 2 seconds it takes to look past any physical characteristic to see what else might be there. When I don't do that, I feel guilty.

That's understandable ... and it probably applies to a lesser or greater extent to most of us (gay or straight), but I doubt if it applies just in our views just of those who are fat but I expect it also applies to any other physical appearance, such as those who are untidy, unshaven, etc. The fat just seem to make us feel more guilty ...

[LeCharivari]

I don't think is unfair to judge the vast majority of people who are obese, it's in our nature to judge and I don't feel guilty when I pass judgement on someone sitting at Swensons who I would consider obese. I do sympathise when I see a large person at a salad bar I feel they are making an effort.

Medical obesity is another topic and I have family who struggle hourly trying to maintain their weight and it is more than what's in our food chain for certain people (a very small percentile) I've never struggled with weight gain or loss so I can only imagine the challenges for some.

I do find it interesting how we've shunned smokers into being social outcasts yet we're told to be sympathetic to true gorgers who make no attempt in achieving a healthy lifestyle when obesity costs more medically than all smoking related disease.

I also wonder why we allow corpulent folks on our screen - I understand it would be full blown racism to only allow pretty skinny types but if you've ever seen a USA show called Mike and Molly these people IMO shouldn't be allowed on television without addressing serious weight loss when in fact they like fun at weight gain.

I'm saying those that are able to try should be encouraged and those that are just fat and demand extra space on a plane or pour over to my side on the BTS I'm less than impressed.

As for the gay bear who doesn't have anyone to hibernate with - try sticking to the label of being fat and leave the gay tag alone whilst you shed a few kilos.

What I'm particularly unimpressed by is the constant whingeing (everyone hates me because I'm fat .... no-one wants sex with me because I'm fat .... slow down, I can't keep up because I'm fat, etc).

Not all fat people whinge, but so many do that they all seem to. Being fat, with all its consequences, is their choice while on the other hand those who are genuinely handicapped through no fault of their own as a result of an accident, MS, Downs, etc, and who can't physically do anything about the unlucky hand they've been dealt, generally just get on with their life and almost universally resent any "sympathy" or "understanding" they're given.

Fat people who use being fat as an excuse for their problems need to have a good look around them as well as in the mirror - fat gay people who use being fat and gay as an excuse even more so.

[Jingthing]

This has become like hate speech central against fat people. Whatever your definition of fat is, which could be 5 pounds over some abstract concept of ideal weight from some insurance chart that doesn't account for the vast individual differences between people, or even more harsh measures (refer to the concept of GAY FAT), or moderately overweight -- not fit or hot but not to the point of health risk, or into obesity, or the small percentage of unfortunate people who are super obese. Such a wide range, pun intended!

Also, not sure where people got the idea that fat gay people expect everyone to want to sleep with them! Duh. It's more about not being insulted all the time.

I heartily recommend two BBC t.v. series. Getting educated might help some people temper their prejudice (especially about the assumptions about the degree of CHOICE expressed here) and yes the tone of some of the "opinions" here does approach real bigotry.

The Men Who Made Us Fat

and

The Men Who Made Us Thin

I think you can probably stream on youtube, etc.

It's funny to me, funny sad not funny ha ha how so many gay people are so blind to being bigoted against fat people when people who have experienced irrational bigotry themselves should bloody well know better.

No I am not suggesting the state of being fat and the state of being gay are exactly the same any more than sexual orientation is the same as ethnicity or race, but really, bigotry is bigotry.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Jingthing

[ToddWeston]

This has become like hate speech central against fat people. Whatever your definition of fat is, which could be 5 pounds over some abstract concept of ideal weight from some insurance chart that doesn't account for the vast individual differences between people, or even more harsh measures (refer to the concept of GAY FAT), or moderately overweight -- not fit or hot but not to the point of health risk, or into obesity, or the small percentage of unfortunate people who are super obese. Such a wide range, pun intended!

Also, not sure where people got the idea that fat gay people expect everyone to want to sleep with them! Duh. It's moqre about not being insulted all the time.

I heartily recommend two BBC t.v. series. Getting educated might help some people temper their prejudice (especially about the assumptions about the degree of CHOICE expressed here) and yes the tone of some of the "opinions" here does approach real bigotry.

The Men Who Made Us Fat

and

The Men Who Made Us Thin

I think you can probably stream on youtube, etc.

It's funny to me, funny sad not funny ha ha how so many gay people are so blind to being bigoted against fat people when people who have experienced irrational bigotry themselves should bloody well know better.

No I am not suggesting the state of being fat and the state of being gay are exactly the same any more than sexual orientation is the same as ethnicity or race, but really, bigotry is bigotry.

Let's be very clear I referred to OBESE people. Fat people (sorry I can't do pounds) are 4 to 10 kilos over their supposed weight, obesity is plus 25 kilos.

I have said before I have great sympathy and I believe there are underlining factors which may contribute to this epidemic - food chain, genetically modified food, et al. it's been well covered on other threads.

I have a professional opinion and a personal opinion - like others I do believe it's within their power to modify and live a healthy life (personal opinion) can i help and encourage people so I don't have to continually modify their meds and worry about all the onset disease(s) that will follow yes (professional) I've counselled thousands of patients who want a quick fix - it's a journey and no one has the answer, but as a first step it's really up to the individual.

It's the ones who make NO effort that I'm offended by.

I'm not bigoted and take offence to that - judgemental sure I don't like tatts, people who dye their hair or wear coloured contact lenses - it's my opinion. Would I sleep with a fat or obese person - no I'm married. If my hubby gained 50 kilos you bet I would more to cuddle but we'd be out walking 10 kms the next day because I want him alive as long as possible.

Edited October 18, 2013 by ToddWeston

[Jingthing]

Don't be offended, dude. I was talking in generalities and not naming names. I hope people can get that. If I'm speaking to a specific person or post, I will make that crystal clear.

As far as people having health issues with fat (as opposed to cosmetic complaints of minor overweight), yes that is a real thing, and yes of course the motivation has to come from the individual and insulting people not only doesn't help, it hurts. Also even with those very strongly motivated and that's lots of people, the LONG TERM failure rates are massive and yes there are rational explanations for that, see below.

Again people with no concept (or personal experience) of the issues involved would be well served to watch the t.v. documentaries I suggested.

If you see a random fat person on the street, really, you do NOT know their story. Don't assume you do. In my opinion making moralistic judgments about all or most fat people simply reflects ignorance of issues involved. Now yes there are some fat people where those judgments would be more fair but you would need a lot of personal details about them to even begin to justify those conclusions. So it's a tricky issue that way.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Jingthing