Thailand, Hub of Disgrace, but Land of Excuses

[ToddWeston]

I picked this at random because it is headlines today. Not hard to find. Apologies to my Canadian friends, I do not believe your country is a 'hub of disgrace'. (see link below). I could have just as easily found a similar one in Australia or the UK or US.

Health Care everywhere is under the pump today. In all countries. You will find these stories, and others far more disgraceful than this one by just scanning the news every day.

Of course this is disgraceful. You would be extremely callous to think otherwise. Sure people should be brought to account and procedures be put in place so it never happens again.

But, the OPs 'Get you in headline' would suggest. (as many others do here) that Thailand has a monopoly on all things disgraceful.

Police, coroner investigate death of boy born in Ottawa jail

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/technology/Baby+born+jail+cell+dies/9033268/story.html

Your link is off topic

Yes the baby was born in a jail 13 months ago and the nurses didn't believe she was in labour and she and a guard were dismissed from their positions. This toddlers mother sought medical attention this Thanksgiving past week end and was sent home and sadly the baby passed away - happens everyday in every country of the world but he received medical attention.

The initial jail house birth received a lot of press and I can tell you as someone who has worked in a jail as a medical professional the rules are different and certain procedures must be followed for everyone's safety and security - the dismissed nurse and guard was a witch hunt IMO.

All of the pointing to other countries is off topic IMO this is a Thai tradegy.

Back on topic - very sad day for this family and for the medical profession.

Edited October 15, 2013 by ToddWeston

[Equalizer]

This sort of thing happens in America as well....which is why the US government has been trying to create a system whereby everyone would have access to medical care/health insurance. But now the "other side" is trying to dismantle the new law. It's complicated, but in this Thai case, the OP deliberately fails to mention that Thai people on social media are pretty disgusted by what happened. But yet, he's still attacking Thai people. An axe to grind, OP?

Yes Berkshire, I do ..... I happen to care about others, and in particuliar children, who have no one to protect them except for their adults..... 'Care' Berkshire...... try it sometime, you just may find that it has an effect on you

There's a difference between caring and pretending to care. You seem to be doing more of the latter. If you can try actually caring without having to attack the entire populace of this country, I'd have more respect for you and your opinion.

What up Berkshire does the truth hurt you.

[kikoman]

I'm sure stuff like this happens in every country every day due to negligence or just plain indifference or greed...yeah, even in the so called advanced countries of the West. Therefore, though a tragic incident indeed and worthy of discussion and investigation by the authorities, there is no need for the generic Thai bashing in the op's headline.

Your are correct in this statement, These types of incidents happen in every country, it is sad that the Thai bashers would take advantage of the lost of a baby's life just to get in some Thai-bashing and blame it on the complete country of 65 million people as the OP did.

All one needs to do is type it in their computers and get all the info on this subject of all the people that have been turned away from hospitals that happens to frequently in the US and the West..

Cheers:

My sentiments exactly. Wish I could rec your post +10.

That very response I received from the same person on another thread, nay sayers have a bunch of one liners that state, you have misinterpreted what the OP meant, flaw in your way of thinking, you can not accept being wrong, you do not think anyone has a right to an opinion but you, because it happens some where else does not mean it is ok here etc. and those are the nicer ones l

Cheers:

Edited October 15, 2013 by kikoman

[cpofc]

Off Topic? - Hmmmmmm 'Thailand Hub Of Disgrace........ ' Is this NOT the Topic? Using the story of the tragic death of a child to highlight the OPs biased view of an entire country. Or am I reading it wrong? I am arguing that Thailand is not a 'Hub Of Disgrace. Disgraceful things happen everywhere. I am providing examples of that. So I reckon I am ON topic.

Ok, How about a Topic such as - 'Death Of A Child - Mother Turned Away at a Hospital In Thailand'.

BTW, Australia has a Public 'Medicare' Health System that is the envy of many countries around the world. But it is certainly not without its faults. Some pretty disgraceful things happen there too.

Remember when my wife arrived in Australia and we received our first 'Medicare Card'. She couldn't believe it. You could front up at a doctor or hospital and not have to part with any money.

But shit still happens. in Thailand as it does mostly everywhere else.

This article is a few years old now, but believe me, not much has changed. In fact it is getting worse as costs keep spiralling upwards, and new drugs, medical procedures and technology is allowing us to live longer.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/patients-hospital-horrors/story-e6freuy9-1225840396474


Patients' hospital horrors
By Lisa Mayoh
The Sunday Telegraph
March 14, 2010 12:01AM

ACCIDENTAL death, permanent disabilities, broken bones and life-threatening infections - these are the real-life patient horror stories uncovered by researchers investigating mistakes made in Australian hospitals.

The study has identified a long list of medical errors, including overworked staff performing wrong surgeries, administering incorrect doses of medication or using unsterilised equipment.

The University of Technology, Sydney's "100 Patient Stories Project" is funded by the Australian Commission of Safety and Quality in Health Care. The results of the research will be presented in June.

When completed, the UTS study will be used to develop surveys for patients and hospital staff to measure and improve the effectiveness of explaining the causes of adverse events.

Among the horror cases identified by the study is that of an agency nurse who was notified of a late shift at the last minute and failed to read a patient's medical notes which said the patient could not be left alone in the bathroom.

The patient was left alone and fell in the bathroom, breaking their cancerous leg, and they later died during surgery to fix it.

Another case involved a drug overdose during a routine hysterectomy, which led to a woman being paralysed for some time.

Researchers also interviewed a rural resident who was twice flown to a major hospital for surgery, but was left in a corridor after the surgical unit closed.

Other cases include a man infected with hepatitis C due to contaminated equipment and a colonoscopy conducted with unsterilised equipment.

More than 700 Australians suffer serious adverse events in hospitals every year, according to the Commission on Safety and Quality in Health Care.

Another 679 "severe" incidents were reported in Australia from 2005 to 2008. Called sentinel events or "never events", because they should never happen, the commission's 2009 report

Windows into Safety and Quality in Health Care states that sentinel figures reflect only 10 per cent of all serious incidents in Australian hospitals.

In 2007-08, sentinel events included 288 procedures involving the wrong patient or body part, resulting in death or major loss of function.

Another 147 cases reported a surgical instrument being left inside a patient and 38 deaths due to the wrong administration of drugs.

One patient, giving an account of an explanation of an adverse event, said: "(The clinician) didn't want to talk about it any more; her whole body language changed where she became defensive and ... (she said) 'there's nothing we can do about it, she's dead' ... I just wanted to get out of there, because she wasn't sorry any more."

Principal investigator Professor Rick Iedema, director of the university's Centre for Health Communication, said after 50 interviews it was clear that people felt disclosure was not happening as it should.

"People feel they are owed an explanation and the explanations they are given are not really in-depth enough, perhaps not sincere at times, and many of the people are disappointed that they are not dealt with with more respect and dignity," he said.


Professor Iedema said the health system was so complex it was not unusual for a patient to see hundreds of staff members in just one week.


"If you are a patient, you can see 300 different people in a week that do stuff for you: nurses, doctors, the lot. So if something falls over or something goes wrong, who of those 300 people knows the story?" he said.


"Well people don't, so when something goes wrong in a health service, people scramble around trying to find out what happened - which to the patient and family may seem like people are not wanting to tell them what happened."


Professor Iedema said while he expected more people to come forward with their stories, their emotional pain, disempowerment, suffering and grief was all too clear.


The Sunday Telegraph uncovered two other women victims of hospital mismanagement, Zeina Assaf and Tresna Cullen, who lost their children and hope to share their experiences with UTS researchers.


An investigation is still under way into the death of Ms Assaf's 14-month-old son, Moey.


Ms Assaf had taken her son, ill with fever, diarrhoea and a rash, to a western Sydney hospital in October, 2008 but was told to take him home.


The next day he had a cardiac arrest and died."You're just a number in line - they just don't care," Ms Assaf told The Sunday Telegraph.


"No one has apologised. They said to me the doctors are being counselled - what about me?


"At the end of the day ... we just want answers."


Ms Assaf said she would gladly share her story with the UTS project.


Ms Cullen, 41, is petitioning for laws, holding doctors criminally responsible if they commit negligent acts, to be introduced in NSW.


Ms Cullen lost her baby Jessica, who was stillborn in September, 2007 after presenting to a hospital with pain and pre-eclampsia symptoms in her eighth month of pregnancy.


Ms Cullen claimed doctors should be held criminally responsible if they commit a negligent act.


"It's 2010, for crying out loud - they can survive babies that are 22 weeks and I'm not a doctor but parental instincts tell us when things are wrong and doctors should be listening to those mothers," she said.

[xxoahu22]

This sort of thing happens in America as well....which is why the US government has been trying to create a system whereby everyone would have access to medical care/health insurance. But now the "other side" is trying to dismantle the new law. It's complicated, but in this Thai case, the OP deliberately fails to mention that Thai people on social media are pretty disgusted by what happened. But yet, he's still attacking Thai people. An axe to grind, OP?

WHAT??!! FALSE. silly

[OMGImInPattaya]

I'm sure stuff like this happens in every country every day due to negligence or just plain indifference or greed...yeah, even in the so called advanced countries of the West. Therefore, though a tragic incident indeed and worthy of discussion and investigation by the authorities, there is no need for the generic Thai bashing in the op's headline.

You have your opinion, I have mine and its just correct as yours.

Thailand and a good percentage of it populace have a penchant for wanting to be he hub of everything. Hub of this , Hub of that.

This happening is a disgrace, admit or not . I think the majority feel that way.

I never posted of intimated all Thais, rather suggested that maybe too many cause too much disgrace within its borders.

Is it not a disgrace effecting ALL THAIS when a recent survey states that close to 70% of those surveyed find no difficulty with corruption if they may be benefited?? That is a disgrace also.

Whats also a disgrace is those expats who are so unsure of themselves that they feel they must jump over anyone or anything , mentioned or written that they can twist in their insecure minds as to be anti Thai, when that was never inplied in fact. Those who do this just try to ingratiate themselves to Thailand and Thais to . they think , feather their own insecurities.

Thailand is a beautiful place and with beautiful caring people, but not without fault. If the faults cannot be mentioned because some holy than thou Joe expat will get a boo boo feeling, then noone learns and noone gains.

Again you have your opinion, I have mine and neither is worth more or less than the other. Try and be accepted by Thais for what you are not what performance you put on.

Sounds like you're backsliding to me. I've lived here for going on 15 years and seen and read all about the good and the bad...but hub of excuses and disgrace for something that happens daily around the world seems a bit harsh.

Why didn't you also mention the front page artucle about the fella who followed on his moto a murder suspect from bangkok to Chonchosao and reported same to the police and radio stations? Also what he said about why he did it...oh I see, that wouldn't have fit your post heading of Thailand be a hub of disgraces!

[HUAHIN62]

Yes it happens in Thailand and there cant be any excuse for it. But there are other cases that shows another side. About 6 months ago my wifes cusom suffered a stroke. His friend took him to the closes hospital which was a private one. They took him in because he was critical. They stabilised him and after a week he was transfered to a state hospital closer to home, so that the family could say their goodbyes. He passed away 2 days later. The private hospital never asked for money before he was moved or for moving him. In the end empathy lives in ones heart and no one have the monopoly over it.

[thousandpercent]

This sort of thing happens in America as well....which is why the US government has been trying to create a system whereby everyone would have access to medical care/health insurance. But now the "other side" is trying to dismantle the new law. It's complicated, but in this Thai case, the OP deliberately fails to mention that Thai people on social media are pretty disgusted by what happened. But yet, he's still attacking Thai people. An axe to grind, OP?

Yes Berkshire, I do ..... I happen to care about others, and in particuliar children, who have no one to protect them except for their adults..... 'Care' Berkshire...... try it sometime, you just may find that it has an effect on you

There's a difference between caring and pretending to care. You seem to be doing more of the latter. If you can try actually caring without having to attack the entire populace of this country, I'd have more respect for you and your opinion.

Please stop your wingnuttery, wingnut. It it tedious to read through your sewage to find useful comments.

[paz]

Yes it happens in Thailand and there cant be any excuse for it. But there are other cases that shows another side. About 6 months ago my wifes cusom suffered a stroke. His friend took him to the closes hospital which was a private one. They took him in because he was critical. They stabilised him and after a week he was transfered to a state hospital closer to home, so that the family could say their goodbyes. He passed away 2 days later. The private hospital never asked for money before he was moved or for moving him. In the end empathy lives in ones heart and no one have the monopoly over it.

Sure. But looking at the TrueMove ad that is broadcast often these days, (and got some international exposure too), can be inferred that high hospital bills are something people do worry very much about about in Thailand.

[norrona]

This sort of thing happens in America as well....which is why the US government has been trying to create a system whereby everyone would have access to medical care/health insurance. But now the "other side" is trying to dismantle the new law. It's complicated, but in this Thai case, the OP deliberately fails to mention that Thai people on social media are pretty disgusted by what happened. But yet, he's still attacking Thai people. An axe to grind, OP?

yet again comments of disgust and outrage on something someone feels strongly about and you pipe up with the usual old waffle....

[thousandpercent]

This sort of thing happens in America as well....which is why the US government has been trying to create a system whereby everyone would have access to medical care/health insurance. But now the "other side" is trying to dismantle the new law. It's complicated, but in this Thai case, the OP deliberately fails to mention that Thai people on social media are pretty disgusted by what happened. But yet, he's still attacking Thai people. An axe to grind, OP?

Life has far less value here. death is viewed differently. Face is everything.

If you really believe that about Thailand, then there's no point trying to have a rational discussion with you.

Why are you still here?

[umbanda]

Something is wrong with this event. I commented with my Thai wife and she said that Thai people do not need SS card to get attended in any hospital, She had her baby in a good Bangkok hospital 20 years ago, without SS card, and was free, just paying for some medication. Things may changed, but It is hard to believe that a hospital will send a woman in that condition alone. I need to believe was some kind of misunderstanding...I used public hospitals few times here, and the service always was fast, cordial and cheap...even for Thai people.

[HUAHIN62]

Yes it happens in Thailand and there cant be any excuse for it. But there are other cases that shows another side. About 6 months ago my wifes cusom suffered a stroke. His friend took him to the closes hospital which was a private one. They took him in because he was critical. They stabilised him and after a week he was transfered to a state hospital closer to home, so that the family could say their goodbyes. He passed away 2 days later. The private hospital never asked for money before he was moved or for moving him. In the end empathy lives in ones heart and no one have the monopoly over it.

Sure. But looking at the TrueMove ad that is broadcast often these days, (and got some international exposure too), can be inferred that high hospital bills are something people do worry very much about about in Thailand.

The point was that they could have refused him or could have insisted on payment before moving him. Yes if you want good treatment you going to pay for it, but its still cheaper than most places in the world. For those who say its for free in the UK and US think again someone is paying for it. Someone made a mistake by refusing this woman treatment and life was lost, sad but true.

[gamini]

My elderly mother went to see a NHS doctor in the UK who bluntly told her " We don't really like elderly people coming here they take up too much our time" . She never went back to see an NHS doctor and went private which she could ill afford. So I paid it. So it is just not in Thailand bad things happen.

[Andre0720]

Well, being pregnant is not a sickness.

If this mother does not have a Samsung Galaxy S4 and a 4 baht gold necklace, then some sage-femme should have been brought in to help.

May I provide a reminder that 18,000 children die of hunger everyday in this world... Anybody here provides some help to reduce that number...If not.....

[Honkytowner]

This is a terrible tragedy.

I suppose it's arguable that childbirth per se is not a medical emergency, but still, a woman presenting herself at a hospital in labour should never be turned away.

It's a great shame that the ancient and honourable profession of midwifery seems to be dying out all over the developed and developing world. It used to be that every neighbourhood, rural or urban, had a local midwife who could be called upon to assist with the delivery of a child.

My sister-in-law encountered a similar situation a couple of years ago in the Philippines. She went into labour two months prematurely and hired a motor tricycle to take her to the nearby hospital, where she was turned away for lack of a cash deposit. She was then driven to a second hospital, where she was again declined admission, even though by then her waters had broken and the baby was breeching. The nurses simply cut the umbilicus, cleaned her up and sent her home with her newborn baby girl, saying that she might not survive without intensive care.

Against the odds, the little one did survive and though she is a bit small for her age (2½), she is a perfectly normal, intelligent and active girl.

There is simply no excuse for this "money-first, care later" attitude that seems so prevalent in this part of the world.

[gopis108]

What burns my heart the most is that these so called Buddhists make a big show of protecting dogs and mosquitoes but in reality it is heartless,all of it.

[Lancelot]

Even in the USA, where so many people are uninsured, patients with life threatning medical issues may not be turned away.

I believe that is now law, although that wasn't always the case. Nevertheless....

http://mediamatters.org/research/2013/09/27/because-fox-asked-here-are-examples-of-people-w/196139

I disagree.

Persons that were wronged have a better chance of receiving justice in the USA, or the UK and most European nationas as well. The rule of law is mostly unavailable to the citizens of Asia...

[kikoman]

I picked this at random because it is headlines today. Not hard to find. Apologies to my Canadian friends, I do not believe your country is a 'hub of disgrace'. (see link below). I could have just as easily found a similar one in Australia or the UK or US.

Health Care everywhere is under the pump today. In all countries. You will find these stories, and others far more disgraceful than this one by just scanning the news every day.

Of course this is disgraceful. You would be extremely callous to think otherwise. Sure people should be brought to account and procedures be put in place so it never happens again.

But, the OPs 'Get you in headline' would suggest. (as many others do here) that Thailand has a monopoly on all things disgraceful.

Police, coroner investigate death of boy born in Ottawa jail

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/technology/Baby+born+jail+cell+dies/9033268/story.html

Your link is off topic

Yes the baby was born in a jail 13 months ago and the nurses didn't believe she was in labour and she and a guard were dismissed from their positions. This toddlers mother sought medical attention this Thanksgiving past week end and was sent home and sadly the baby passed away - happens everyday in every country of the world but he received medical attention.

The initial jail house birth received a lot of press and I can tell you as someone who has worked in a jail as a medical professional the rules are different and certain procedures must be followed for everyone's safety and security - the dismissed nurse and guard was a witch hunt IMO.

All of the pointing to other countries is off topic IMO this is a Thai tradegy.

Back on topic - very sad day for this family and for the medical profession.

I disagree with your contention that pointing to the same thing happening in other countries is off topic, The OP brought attention to the incident which was all well, because of the problem she encounter a baby died, who is at fault if anyone , It is my opinion that the person at the hospital that refused her service was at fault.

In his title the OP states: "THAILAND, HUB OF DISGRACE, BUT LAND OF EXCUSES" he includes the whole 65 million Thai's for the babies death, states under his facts she was told to go to another hospital or pay 15,000-18,000 baht up front but she couldn't so she went home and had the baby, that died.he ended his post by stating "What in heavens name happened to logic, common sense and or Thai compassion"

He placed the blame for this infants death on the country of Thailand.

Many posters have posted in their countries this never happens, as the intent of the story was somehow that Thailand was at fault for this poor innocent baby's death, It is a very sad incident but to place blame on Thailand as the hub of disgrace, is selective, unfair, misleading and uncalled for, and may even be a violation of forum rules.

Cheers:

[kannot]

You choose to have a baby, you know the system in your own country, Im not surprised by any of this.

[kannot]

Even in the USA, where so many people are uninsured, patients with life threatning medical issues may not be turned away.

I believe that is now law, although that wasn't always the case. Nevertheless....

http://mediamatters.org/research/2013/09/27/because-fox-asked-here-are-examples-of-people-w/196139

I disagree.

Persons that were wronged have a better chance of receiving justice in the USA, or the UK and most European nationas as well. The rule of law is mostly unavailable to the citizens of Asia...

I used to think like that about the Uk, recently though Im not so sure and feel its getting harder to get any justice at all.

[kikoman]

Even in the USA, where so many people are uninsured, patients with life threatning medical issues may not be turned away.

I believe that is now law, although that wasn't always the case. Nevertheless....

http://mediamatters.org/research/2013/09/27/because-fox-asked-here-are-examples-of-people-w/196139

I disagree.

Persons that were wronged have a better chance of receiving justice in the USA, or the UK and most European nationas as well. The rule of law is mostly unavailable to the citizens of Asia...

I would rather take my chances with the Boys in Brown BIB than their US counterparts, they may solicit tea money from you, but the Los Angeles Police force are among the worst in the nation, watch the you-tube video on the L.A. policeman that chased a young man down the street shooting him in the back about 4 times and walking up to him laying on the ground and delivered the finishing shot, then stated that he felt his life was in danger. (all on video) I know I lived in LA during the Watt riots.

I have lived in LOS for 12 years never had any problems with the BIB in all that time, I will take them any day over the US cops.

Just my opinion!

Cheers:

Edited October 15, 2013 by kikoman

[flyingdoc]

It is not really fair to compare the U.K healthcare system with Thailand, which is still a developing country.

Having said that, I agree with your correspondent who questions the aptitude of anyone working in this sector, who is happy to turn away a real emergency purely on the basis of money. However it happens with monotonous regularity in the U.S. which is why Obama is having so much trouble, trying to make his new healthcare law stick over there!

[Bagwan]

Berkshire shame on you for trying to score some kind of lousy point!..... This was your opportunity to exit left gracefully!

Does Berkshire believe that this was an isolated incident?

[arminbkk]

People react as if the hospital staff blatantly turned the woman away, almost as if they told her to p.... off.

I seriously doubt it went like that, would be very surprised if it did.

It was probably staff overly concerned with following the rules or consequences from superiors for taking

their own actions (i.e. admitting patients without payment). Or staff misjudged the emergency.

My point is, it is probably not that the staff did not care at all.

That being said, the woman should have received proper care. Should have at least been examined by a doctor.

The hospitals in question should take legal and moral responsibility. Thanks to Thais

expressing their disgust over this on the internet, this might just happen.

In my personal opinion, health care should always be available to people, "free".

(I say "free", but you know what I mean)

But of course, health care, anywhere has (been) turned into business.

However, that would be another thread topic entirely.

[tingtongteesood]

Sad to say that logic and common sense are very VERY rare commodities in this country. As for the hospitals, they are all commercial businesses and only work for money, if you have no money then they have no interest in helping you. It's wrong but it's the way of this sick world we live in these days unfortunately

[MacChine]

No one will ever convince me that Thais aren't suffering in levels of compassion. Just look at how animals are treated ( amongst other standards) Heritage is everything and life is cheap.

[MacChine]

You choose to have a baby, you know the system in your own country, Im not surprised by any of this.

Women in Thailand do not have that choice

[butterlimbo]

This sort of thing happens in America as well....which is why the US government has been trying to create a system whereby everyone would have access to medical care/health insurance. But now the "other side" is trying to dismantle the new law. It's complicated, but in this Thai case, the OP deliberately fails to mention that Thai people on social media are pretty disgusted by what happened. But yet, he's still attacking Thai people. An axe to grind, OP?

You deliberately fail to read the OP properly.

the chosen topic title makes it pretty clear what OP is up to.

[ableguy]

Maybe it's because I'm from the UK, but for any country to be classed as civilised to me, it has to have free (or heavily subsidised) health care. No one should ever be turned away from a hospital.

socialized healthcare sucks. What are you on? 3 months to see a doctor then months more to get treatment! Thats uncivilised to me.

Nothing is FREE. You ever notice your tax rates?

the health care waiting sucks yes, but you have an emergency they will treat you with the best at once, been there done that.