Have You Ever Met a Thai Apologist?

[AYJAYDEE]

I was (past tense) a Thai apologist. Not to the extent that I couldn't see some negatives, but I almost always made excuses for them.

With the coming of the Red Shirts, however, I moved over into the other column. Again, I can still see the good things, but the rose colored glasses are definitely off.

and the nonsense the yellow shirts pulled never bothered you?

[Cheapcharly]

Same attitude in the us"if u don't like it here what u do here "?

So USA expect you to agree on everything?

[kikoman]

There it is again.

Find something worse happening elsewhere and you can ignore the problems in Thailand.

Would that suggestion be deleted because it is off-topic. just asking!

Cheers:

[kikoman]

Same attitude in the us"if u don't like it here what u do here "?

So USA expect you to agree on everything?

So very true, the U.S. rant "love it or leave it", you hear more and more every day.

Cheers:

[Berkshire]

Wikipedia definition, the term Thai Apologist (from Greek ἀπολογία, "speaking in defense") is a term used exclusively by Thai haters/bashers to describe someone who does not share in their vile hatred of all things Thai. A Thai Basher is typically a disenfranchised expatriate who is no longer enchanted with Thailand and spends most of his waking hours trying to convince others to despise the Thais as much as he does. Accordingly, he is often mystified and highly offended by those who does not share in his misery and seeks to label them in such a way as if to say "do ye not feel shame in speaking in defense of these dreadful natives!!"

Thai Apologist used in a sentence:

"If you don't hate the Thais as much as I do, then you must be a Thai Apologist!"

Disclaimer: This "would be" the Wikipedia definition if Wikipedia had a definition of said word.

[GuestHouse]

Wikipedia definition, the term Thai Apologist (from Greek ἀπολογία, "speaking in defense") is a term used exclusively by Thai haters/bashers to describe someone who does not share in their vile hatred of all things Thai. A Thai Basher is typically a disenfranchised expatriate who is no longer enchanted with Thailand and spends most of his waking hours trying to convince others to despise the Thais as much as he does. Accordingly, he is often mystified and highly offended by those who does not share in his misery and seeks to label them in such a way as if to say "do ye not feel shame in speaking in defense of these dreadful natives!!"

Thai Apologist used in a sentence:

"If you don't hate the Thais as much as I do, then you must be a Thai Apologist!"

Disclaimer: This "would be" the Wikipedia definition if Wikipedia had a definition of said word.

Very good.

I frequently use the term "Thai Apologist" - am I a Thai hater or a Thai Basher?

If so can you direct me to posts I make bashing and hating Thais/Thailand?

Edited October 22, 2013 by GuestHouse

[phetaroi]

I was (past tense) a Thai apologist. Not to the extent that I couldn't see some negatives, but I almost always made excuses for them.

With the coming of the Red Shirts, however, I moved over into the other column. Again, I can still see the good things, but the rose colored glasses are definitely off.

and the nonsense the yellow shirts pulled never bothered you?

Bothered me yes. But it paled in comparison.

[HeijoshinCool]

^^ Thanks for that ...

What I try to be is to be my own man.

Make valued judgements as I see them, based on my up-bringing and the value set taught to me by my parents.

I love this place ... warts and all ...

That said .. if only I could tweak and change this and that ...

But, jokes aside ... it's the endemic corruption which still disappoints me.

This place (Thailand) could be so much more, so much a more a vocal voice in Asia if that could be reduced, because, we all know from our experiences back home ... corruption, it always exists ... just the scale of which changes.

OK .. where's my gloves ... Queensberry Rules please ... someone must be up for a good stouch!

considering that the western banking systems almost brought the worlds financial system to its knees without a single one of the sons of b8tches going to jail, I find it difficult to point fingers at thai corruption.

Because this is ThaiVisa, we talk all things Thai, not www.westernbaking.com.

[HeijoshinCool]

Wikipedia definition, the term Thai Apologist (from Greek ἀπολογία, "speaking in defense") is a term used exclusively by Thai haters/bashers to describe someone who does not share in their vile hatred of all things Thai. A Thai Basher is typically a disenfranchised expatriate who is no longer enchanted with Thailand and spends most of his waking hours trying to convince others to despise the Thais as much as he does. Accordingly, he is often mystified and highly offended by those who does not share in his misery and seeks to label them in such a way as if to say "do ye not feel shame in speaking in defense of these dreadful natives!!"

Thai Apologist used in a sentence:

"If you don't hate the Thais as much as I do, then you must be a Thai Apologist!"

Disclaimer: This "would be" the Wikipedia definition if Wikipedia had a definition of said word.

Okay, you've defined the word of the day, "apologist."

Tomorrow's word of the day is, "nonsense."

After reading your post, I believe you can take tomorrow off.

[Berkshire]

Wikipedia definition, the term Thai Apologist (from Greek ἀπολογία, "speaking in defense") is a term used exclusively by Thai haters/bashers to describe someone who does not share in their vile hatred of all things Thai. A Thai Basher is typically a disenfranchised expatriate who is no longer enchanted with Thailand and spends most of his waking hours trying to convince others to despise the Thais as much as he does. Accordingly, he is often mystified and highly offended by those who does not share in his misery and seeks to label them in such a way as if to say "do ye not feel shame in speaking in defense of these dreadful natives!!"

Thai Apologist used in a sentence:

"If you don't hate the Thais as much as I do, then you must be a Thai Apologist!"

Disclaimer: This "would be" the Wikipedia definition if Wikipedia had a definition of said word.

Very good.

I frequently use the term "Thai Apologist" - am I a Thai hater or a Thai Basher?

If so can you direct me to posts I make bashing and hating Thais/Thailand?

GH, you're a good egg in my book. But why would you feel the need to attach that label to someone? Perhaps you don't realize that most guys simply use that label exactly as I've described it. I for one have never defended the indefensible. But I will criticize someone for attacking the whole of Thailand just because one Thai commits one of these indefensible acts. For some reason, many take offense to this.

[Berkshire]

Wikipedia definition, the term Thai Apologist (from Greek ἀπολογία, "speaking in defense") is a term used exclusively by Thai haters/bashers to describe someone who does not share in their vile hatred of all things Thai. A Thai Basher is typically a disenfranchised expatriate who is no longer enchanted with Thailand and spends most of his waking hours trying to convince others to despise the Thais as much as he does. Accordingly, he is often mystified and highly offended by those who does not share in his misery and seeks to label them in such a way as if to say "do ye not feel shame in speaking in defense of these dreadful natives!!"

Thai Apologist used in a sentence:

"If you don't hate the Thais as much as I do, then you must be a Thai Apologist!"

Disclaimer: This "would be" the Wikipedia definition if Wikipedia had a definition of said word.

Okay, you've defined the word of the day, "apologist."

Tomorrow's word of the day is, "nonsense."

After reading your post, I believe you can take tomorrow off.

Thank you. I will, in fact, take tomorrow off. Feel free to talk amongst yourselves while I'm away.

[Nautilus05]

He wai'd a motorbike taxi?

Okay, you've met one.

The best is when you see them wai'ing a go-go dancer, or door man / women in front of a go-go bar.

It's so funny, it's almost cute.

[HeijoshinCool]

He wai'd a motorbike taxi?

Okay, you've met one.

The best is when you see them wai'ing a go-go dancer, or door man / women in front of a go-go bar.

It's so funny, it's almost cute.

If its an old guy and a go-go dancer, maybe he's just praying.

[somchaismith]

I know one very well. He makes me want to barf.

[GuestHouse]

Wikipedia definition, the term Thai Apologist (from Greek ἀπολογία, "speaking in defense") is a term used exclusively by Thai haters/bashers to describe someone who does not share in their vile hatred of all things Thai. A Thai Basher is typically a disenfranchised expatriate who is no longer enchanted with Thailand and spends most of his waking hours trying to convince others to despise the Thais as much as he does. Accordingly, he is often mystified and highly offended by those who does not share in his misery and seeks to label them in such a way as if to say "do ye not feel shame in speaking in defense of these dreadful natives!!"

Thai Apologist used in a sentence:

"If you don't hate the Thais as much as I do, then you must be a Thai Apologist!"

Disclaimer: This "would be" the Wikipedia definition if Wikipedia had a definition of said word.

Very good.

I frequently use the term "Thai Apologist" - am I a Thai hater or a Thai Basher?

If so can you direct me to posts I make bashing and hating Thais/Thailand?

GH, you're a good egg in my book. But why would you feel the need to attach that label to someone? Perhaps you don't realize that most guys simply use that label exactly as I've described it. I for one have never defended the indefensible. But I will criticize someone for attacking the whole of Thailand just because one Thai commits one of these indefensible acts. For some reason, many take offense to this.

I'm pleased you don't see me as a 'Thai Basher' or a 'Thai Hater', I believe myself to be far from these things.

So let me explain what it is I dislike about people attacking others for giving negative views of Thailand.

While there is no law dictating that foreigners cannot express opioninions, negative, indifferent or possitive about Thailand and Thai people, beyond the laws dicating the views which Thais themselves are allowed to express, there are very few avenues for foreigeners to do so.

Many foreigners lack the Thai language skills to join and debate the issues that concern them in the Thai media or in Thai language web forums.

Thaivisa is an accessible forum for any expat who wishes to join and it is perhaps the only forum where foreigners without Thai language skills can express and discuss their opinions and feelings about Thailand.

Moreover, some of the very serious negative aspects of life in Thailand as they effect expats do not get mentioned or discussed anywhere else.

Anyone of us may find other people's negativity tedious, but it remains important that cautions, warnings and awareness of negative aspects of life in Thailand are made available to expats - TVF does a great job in that resepct.

The forum has rules and the forum is actively moderated (I of course follow the rule about not discussion moderation) but it is clear that while there are rules on expressing negative views of Thais and Thailand the forum owners also have in mind what is and is not acceptable criticism.

There is a report button which may be used if members feel the rules have been breached - I know from personal use of the report button that action is taken when the rules are breached and not taken if the infringement is minor or a misunderstanding of the rules.

Now the problem.

As soon as every member who wishes to take it upon himself to dictate the opinions that are allowed here on the forum we put our foot on the slippery slope of mob censorship and in doing so undermine what is, as I have argued above, perhaps the single, certainly one of the most accessible forums for expats to express and discuss their opinions.

Left unchallenged, these self appointed arbitors of our opinios will inevitably bully opinion they don't like off the forum, and in doing so put at risk the access all of us have to the full spectrum of expat opinion.

As an active member of this forum that is not where I want this forum to go.

As I have said, if I think a post breaks the rules I report it - the rules are there, they are well managed and they work.

Edited October 22, 2013 by GuestHouse

[Skorz]

Everyone has good days and bad days in Thailand. Greenhorn expats who have yet to realise that their core values as humans are both utterly worthless and incomprehensible to ALL Thais they will meet, generally have lots of good days and enjoy poncing around in their orange clown pants telling everyone how great things are going, how great the local thais who play football on the beach are and how everybody is bending over backwards to help them out. What they don;t realise is that all this help they are getting comes with a price. The day of reckoning is never far away for a green horn in Thailand.

However, if you can remain ignorant and unconcerned about your surroundings and just get on with loving the climate, food, wenches and beer then you'll probably have lots of good days to follow (as long as you keep it in moderation!), but as soon as you try to impose any sort of control over your fellow thais (business/finances/wench/home) you'll come unstuck unless you are absolutely minted and mingle with the high soc.

Thai Apologists generally behave as such because they're either clever enough not to blow cash on anything other than rent and consumables, or because they've yet to be ripped off.

In answer, no, I have never met a serious apologist, at least not one I would give the time of day to.

[ayayay]

It depends what you mean by that, a person who finds reasons to defend Thais and Thai culture at all times. If so, no.

If it means, to view Thais and Thailand as objectively and neutral as possible, sometimes meaning, stand up, defend or explain certain aspects of Thai life when the Thai bashers goes too far, yes, I am one of them.

Thai bashers are, unfortunately the most common type of person. Especially here on Thaivisa.

[ayayay]

Here's another TV definition of Thai Apologist (recently seen on TV):

Westerner who contends, often vehemently and with name-calling, that the word faring can never be racist.

Anyone ever meet this person, in person?

Yes, the word "Farang" is racist, and biggest problem is, so many of us, happily and naively refer to ourselves as that as well. Many of us love to be the dancing monkey and receive the attention being the "crazy farang". And in the next sentence, somewhat amusing, complaining about us being victims of discrimination.

Edited October 22, 2013 by ayayay

[Suradit69]

My definition is a Thai Apologist is:

"Someone who who is unable to accept any criticism of Thailand, Thai society, politics, culture of Thai people , who will on principle defend any aspect aspect of Thai society, politics, culture or Thai peopled with illogical or irrelevant counter arguments - no matter what the criticism is or no matter how well founded the criticism is"

Coincidentally, they are often people who have never taken part in the political or social development of the society they came from - seldom even bothered to vote.

The reason you seldom meet these people, and yet they appear with such regularity behind a keyboard, is because if they where standing in front of you they might and their position might be subjected to face to face questioning - the stuttering as they try to avoid the obvious ridiculousness defending the undependable would give the game away.

No one has given a true definition of a Thai Apologist, many one sided assumptions of what a Thai Apologist is.

Guesthouse definition (more like an assumption) does not fit me as I was the first Chicano elected to my local School Board and a Arizona state Presidential delegate for the Democratic party in the 1970's. Still vote in every US election on an absentee ballot as a resident of Thailand.

Someone else assumed it was a person who continually state :"Farang" is never used as an insult, that also is not me as I state to the origin of the word (did not originate in Thailand) and stated any word can be used as an insult depending on the situation, tone and volume it is used in, even the holy word "mother".

Also many state it is a person who will defend any criticism of Thailand, when someone generalizes that "All Thai's are lazy, uneducated, uncultured people" definitely "gets on the fighting side of me" all Thai's include's my family. If you have a problem with one Thai or some Thai's state it as such!

Some people say they never met one in public (again it could not be me), If you met me in person you would remember me, I grant you!

When the OP comes up with a clear concise definition of what a "Thai apologist" is, maybe I can better respond to the OP's definition. Maybe marrying the definition of Thai and apologist in the dictionary would be a good start. (I know to impartial and fair!)

Me personally never met one,

Cheers:

Basically what some people are saying is that they want to be free to bash/criticize Thais and Thailand, but they get upset when someone responds with criticism of them in return. In other words, they enjoy giving it, but they get all sensitive when it comes back at them. Typical bullying behavior.

If you need to apologize, it means someone did something wrong. Defending someone who is unjustly attacked when it's known he's not present to defend himself is not apologizing. If you confine your rants to a message board because you're afraid to rant face-to-face with the people you're bashing, that's OK, but it works both ways.

Have you met anyone who is quite happy that he/she made a rational decision to choose to live in Thailand? Probably they don't hang out in bars night after night or seek out knuckle-draggers for company, so it's unlikely. Having looked at Thailand and, taking into account all the pluses and minuses, then concluded that life here would be OK is not looking at things through rose colored glasses, it's making a judgment.

Accepting life here, including all the trials and tribulations, without feeling the need to throw tantrums, doesn't make one an apologist. Asking the chronic moaners why, if they're so unhappy, they want to stay here is not the same as telling someone to leave. Obviously the moaners regret the decision they made, which means they were probably wearing those rose colored glasses when they first visited Thailand and were unable to see that it wasn't really Fantasyland . Like children who see a big box of candy and start shoveling it in their mouths without restraint, they then get sick & cranky and claim there was something wrong with the candy and want everyone to be as unhappy as they are.

The most ridiculous thing the chronic moaners do is to experience some inconvenience or something that doesn't suit them and then insist such things would never happen in the west. Either dementia has deprived them of any realistic memory of life in the west or they have managed to ignore history or contemporary news, absorbing their version of reality from the likes of Fox Noise and Chuck Norris' movies.

And of course, if any of the bashers, whose knowledge of Thai people is more limited than they realize, have any kind of confrontation or disagreement with an individual, that individual's issues are quickly generalized to a trait possessed by ALL Thai people and blamed on the Thai culture, whatever they think that means.

So, if you want to complain/bash/whinge about something, nobody has claimed you should be silenced, but if your complaint is so valid and irrefutable, why are you afraid of someone responding to it? News flash, people who complain incessantly don't have some profound right to go unchallenged.

I'm happy living here in Thailand and find most of the negative rants on TV to be just so much childish twaddle by people who have a very narrow view of life outside their own personal, very tiny, universe. I don't start threads extolling the wonderful life here, but if I did I wouldn't get all emotional if I got back some flack. Likewise, if you want to piss and moan in a public forum, be prepared for responses that disagree with you. If that gives you palpitations maybe it's better to keep your thoughts to yourself and to your like-thinking cabal of malcontents. It's hard to imagine you have many friends who want to listen to nothing but whining all the time though.

I've met a lot of people who seem to be quite happy here, while admitting there are problems, as there would be anywhere. You may want to call them apologists or whatever. I prefer to think of them as grown ups who have learned to take life as it comes without throwing hissy fits about every little mishap or inconvenience. It's not therapeutic to moan constantly. It's just the pathetic self-indulgence of people frustrated with their own lives and who have to inflate their own egos by playing US versus THEM games.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Suradit69

[eddie61]

I do find that the fact of having half thai kids makes it difficult to be an apologist.

If I were single, with no real ties to the country, I wouldn't give a flying <deleted> about the place.

The lack of common sense and ethics in government would just add to the rich tapestry of life in a failed state, as long as my assets are in farangland. Som nam na to the inhabitants who elect an unprincipled government, or at least stand by in the creation of an underclass of semi literate morons.

However, contemplating the future of my kids in the LOS does make me cynical, and hard not to vent frustrations.

Edited October 22, 2013 by eddie61

[Mudcrab]

There it is again.

Find something worse happening elsewhere and you can ignore the problems in Thailand.

I don't think that is what was meant.

From my perspective every judgement we make is based on either memories or comparisons.

If we have no reference point to compare something to then we cannot make a judgement. For instance the statement "Thais are terrible drivers" is a comparison based on what we know from other experiences or memories. If we deny ourselves the ability to compare, say, the death rates on Thai roads to that of some other country then we cannot say Thais are bad drivers. They are just drivers.

If someone says "God it's hot today" it is based on their personal comparison of some other memory. Just because one person feels hot doesn't mean I do. I come from a hot country.

I think there needs to some perspective put into some of the discussions here.

Thai apologists suggest to Thai bashers if you don't like it go home.

But then the Thai bashers also deny the Thai apologists the right to compare things they may have experienced here with what they have experienced elsewhere.

If the discussion is to be rational then comparisons elsewhere must be allowed to be part of the discussion.

Having said all of that I've seen good things and bad things. Corruption is probably the main thing I dislike but I must admit I haven't been exposed to it to any extent that affects me greatly.

[Songhua]

Dances With Wolves syndrome.

'Turned Thai did'n ya?'

[MickGC]

He wai'd a motorbike taxi?

Okay, you've met one.

The best is when you see them wai'ing a go-go dancer, or door man / women in front of a go-go bar.

It's so funny, it's almost cute.

How does that make him/her a Thai apologist? More likely a tourist here on a 2 week holiday. "The best is when you see them wai'ing a go-go dancer, or door man / women in front of a go-go bar" Another Thai bashing, barstool expert me thinks.

[dao16]

Thai apologist....the wording here is problematic, but whatever...get the drift.

I don't think you will meet any people like this because they don't exist. It is when you get on this forum and most times you say something positive about Thailand people pounce on you as an "apologist" or if you try to look at things from the Thai perspective you are an "apologist." That's TV for you.

I definitely think people should not just bend over and let themselves be screwed. That said, living in another country does sometimes require one to take things in and analyze what is happening based on the assumptions of the culture they are living in. That isn't being an "apologist." That is taking cultural differences into account while solving problems.

Someone referenced the shoe incident in chiang mai and said the "apologists" are out on that thread. Maybe I am one of them, in his book. I just said that young men (myself included) do stupid stuff. I would have used much harsher language if it weren't restricted here. Anyway....I am not "apologizing" for Thais by saying that. I am saying that young guys do stupid shizen and hopefully they will learn their lesson. That is a good example of how people on these forums get all crazy about "apologizing" or whatever they call it.

[Gsxrnz]

Here's another TV definition of Thai Apologist (recently seen on TV):

Westerner who contends, often vehemently and with name-calling, that the word faring can never be racist.

Anyone ever meet this person, in person?

Yes, the word "Farang" is racist, and biggest problem is, so many of us, happily and naively refer to ourselves as that as well. Many of us love to be the dancing monkey and receive the attention being the "crazy farang". And in the next sentence, somewhat amusing, complaining about us being victims of discrimination.

What Thai words would you prefer to be used by Thais to describe Caucasians when referring to them as a group in the 3rd person?

[HeavyDrinker]

What Thai words would you prefer to be used by Thais to describe Caucasians when referring to them as a group in the 3rd person?

My missus and her pals use "Chao/Kon Da Wan Dtok" especially when they're in my house...

Interesting thread. The snag is that to some posters here if you dare to say anything which may be deemed as 'negative' towards Thailand or Thais, they instantly read between the lines and begin to make wild assumptions about how you must really be struggling with life here and so on...

I've met plenty over the years. In my experience, once the rose tinted glasses come off, they seldom last too much longer after that....

Loving everything unconditionally about your surroundings is actually a recognised symptom/stage of culture shock.

[johnlandy]

No never. Thai's have been raised from the day they were on solid food to believe that they are the 'master race'

[HeijoshinCool]

Here's another TV definition of Thai Apologist (recently seen on TV):

Westerner who contends, often vehemently and with name-calling, that the word faring can never be racist.

Anyone ever meet this person, in person?

Yes, the word "Farang" is racist, and biggest problem is, so many of us, happily and naively refer to ourselves as that as well. Many of us love to be the dancing monkey and receive the attention being the "crazy farang". And in the next sentence, somewhat amusing, complaining about us being victims of discrimination.

What Thai words would you prefer to be used by Thais to describe Caucasians when referring to them as a group in the 3rd person?

Caucasians?

Really?

Geez.

How about:

The gentleman at the counter.

The young woman at teller number three.

The lady at table four.

The blond man in the red shirt.

The customer waiting out front.

That man there, carrying the umbrella, needs a taxi.

The lady with red hair and two little girls needs a doctor.

The guest in room 301.

The folks who ordered the pizza.

The people at the counter, buying tickets for the ferry.

That really hot dude driving the Ducati, named Cool.

Our: customer; guest; patron; client; patient; visitor; foreigner; diner; passenger; contestant; tourist; border; lodger; buyer, etc, etc, etc ....

BUT, NO!

It's always:

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Farang.

Edited October 22, 2013 by HeijoshinCool

[johnlandy]

No never. Thai's have been raised from the day they were on solid food to believe that they are the 'master race'

[hellodolly]

The question is of what a Thai Apologist is.

I am Austrian and our ruling elite makes many things I don't agree. But I won't apologize for it. I didn't do anything wrong.

Well, an apologist is someone who defends something being criticized or attacked.

For the purposes of this thread, define apologist as someone who makes outlandish statements that would lead a reasonable person to conclude the apologist is pretty much claiming Thais can do no wrong; or that if we think something here could benefit from change, we should leave; or goes to great and obviously ridiculous lengths to

defend behavior that is truly, umm, stupid.

How's that?

Well I right now will apologize if I from time to time fall into that category.

I admit I am a defender of Thai's when it comes to Thai bashers. Because generally they are criticizing 66,000,000 Thai's who do not live up to their personal expectations. They make no allowance for the Thai's being in a different culture with different values.

I do how ever very very seldom say any thing that is not critical about the present Government. So as you can see I separate them some deserve it and I am willing to give it to them But never never never will I pin the whole nation as being one way. I even wrote a post once that said a proclaimed academic was actually a good one, In my view most of them would be in about grade 8 back in Canada.

I even from time to time complain about them driving on the wrong side of the road but I do admit not all of them some of them drive on the right side of the road occasionally.

I misunderstood the title of the article I thought it meant a Thai who would apologize. I immediately thought of course, my wife. But only if she thinks it will not cause trouble. Generally when she has really made some stupid mistake and she will even chuckle about it and claim old age. I tought her that one.