European Union to restart accession talks with Turkey next month

[folium]

Folium wrote

Personally I would far rather have Turkey on my side than against me and also feel that it has been shoddily treated by the EU. Taking in Greece and not Turkey....strewth, that was a bright idea!

And I would rather have South Korea than either of them, but it isn't in Europe, nor is Turkey, if we leave your plates on the shelf for a minute else Australia might as well join in union with Africa and Antarctica. Greece was 'taken' as you put it seeing as it is in the heart of Europe and indeed contributed hugely to Judeo-Christian science and philosophy, you can't say the same of Turkey since the fall of Constantinople.

Nice little pun about plates on the shelf...

Not sure what map you look at but Greece is about as peripheral ( in all sorts of ways) to Europe as you can get. If Turkey does not make your take on Europe what the heck is Cyprus doing in the EU, closest neighbours Turkey and Syria?

Ancient Greece and Greek contributions to European culture basically peaked in the 4th century BC, and after that it became a backwater of the Roman Empire, then Byzantium, then the Ottomans until independence as an insignificant peripheral nation in 1821, though Byron did love it in more ways than one.

Byzantium centered on Constantinople at the western edge of the Anatolian land mass was a major contributor to European art and culture for almost a thousand years as the remaining vestige of the Roman Empire. So in terms of contributions in the last 2 millennia, Turkey as the successor state to Byzantium has a greater claim to European status compared to Greece and far more than Cyprus.

[simple1]

Okay, just for fun here's a little numbers game.

http://www.thelocal.de/national/20130612-50249.html

Radical Islamists in Germany numbered 42,550 in 2012, according to surveillance services, and the number of Salafists, who espouse an austere form of Sunni Islam, within the movement grew to 4,500 from 3,800 in a year, he said.

Now if there are say 4 million people in Germany of Turkish origin then approximately 1% of them are the forehead brusing nutcases. If you extrapolate the same percentage to Turkey as a whole then a population of 75 million would suggest 750,000 of them. If they are able to move freely within the EU I shudder to imagine the mayhem they would cause.

P.S Quickly apropos Football and Eurovision, I take it Israel will begin accession talks soon, afterall they won Eurovision twice in a row and you are less likely to get lots of boom bang a bang from the Israeli populace.

Just to add from your link…He also stressed that the number of extremist Islamists in Germany did not signify there were "42,500 potential terrorists" in the country. Still, some 1,000 people including some Salafists are considered dangerous and 130 are seen as a particular threat and are monitored around-the-clock.

About 22,150 people were considered as being part of the far-right movement in Germany in 2012, slightly down on the figure for the year before but a far cry from the 50,900 members of 2000. But Maassen said about 10,000 members were considered to be inclined towards the use of violence.

[folium]

Okay, just for fun here's a little numbers game.

http://www.thelocal.de/national/20130612-50249.html

Radical Islamists in Germany numbered 42,550 in 2012, according to surveillance services, and the number of Salafists, who espouse an austere form of Sunni Islam, within the movement grew to 4,500 from 3,800 in a year, he said.

Now if there are say 4 million people in Germany of Turkish origin then approximately 1% of them are the forehead brusing nutcases. If you extrapolate the same percentage to Turkey as a whole then a population of 75 million would suggest 750,000 of them. If they are able to move freely within the EU I shudder to imagine the mayhem they would cause.

P.S Quickly apropos Football and Eurovision, I take it Israel will begin accession talks soon, afterall they won Eurovision twice in a row and you are less likely to get lots of boom bang a bang from the Israeli populace.

Just to add from your linkHe also stressed that the number of extremist Islamists in Germany did not signify there were "42,500 potential terrorists" in the country. Still, some 1,000 people including some Salafists are considered dangerous and 130 are seen as a particular threat and are monitored around-the-clock.

About 22,150 people were considered as being part of the far-right movement in Germany in 2012, slightly down on the figure for the year before but a far cry from the 50,900 members of 2000. But Maassen said about 10,000 members were considered to be inclined towards the use of violence.

To continue the numbers game....

How many people have been murdered by Turkish Islamists in Germany? Look back 40 years and you will see extreme left wing terrorism (RAF & RZ), secular Palestinians (Black September & PFLP), Libya and neo-Nazis.

Similarly in Turkey there has only been 2 significant Islamist (AQ) attacks in Istanbul in 2003, and Erdogan's government came down hard on the culprits and their associates.

Islamist terrorism in Europe has been mercifully limited in extent and impact with the London and Madrid bombings the 2 most significant incidents. Right-wing and nationalist/ separatist terrorism have killed far more as we have discussed many times before.

Perhaps it's just a case of a "Puppet on a String" meeting it's "Waterloo"......

[7by7]

10,000 out of 3.5 million (not 4) is only 0.28%; not a very large percentage.

The notion that hordes of Islamist extremists bent on violence are waiting in Turkey for that country's accession to the EU so they can swarm unhindered across the border the moment it's open to bomb us back to the stone age would be laughable were it not that prejudiced people actually ignore the facts and believe it.

P.S Quickly apropos Football and Eurovision, I take it Israel will begin accession talks soon, afterall they won Eurovision twice in a row and you are less likely to get lots of boom bang a bang from the Israeli populace.

Politically, Turkey is already part of Europe; Israel isn't.

For example; Turkey is a member of the Council of Europe and have been since 1949; Israel isn't.

As for not getting 'boom bang a bang' from Israel; ask the people of Gaza and the West Bank about that!

Edited October 29, 2013 by 7by7

[folium]

Taking those plates back off the shelf.....

There is actually a simple answer to Turkey joining the EU.

If you wait a few million years Turkey (sitting on the Anatolian micro plate) plus our old friend Cyprus will both have been thrust westwards as the Arabian and African plates grind northward, rather like a small seed being squeezed between 2 fingers. The Aegean Sea will close up and Turkey will be literally injected into Greece. That's how to make an entrance!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_Plate

Continued foot dragging by some EU governments mean that this geological event could be Turkey's best chance of joining Europe.

PS did I tell you that Israel is actually part of Africa...how did they slip into the Eurovision Contest?

[boomerangutang]

Too easy for 'bad element' to get in to Turkey, and thereby have easy access to all European countries. And no (as some say), they won't have to drive. They can hop on a plane, for visa-free entry wherever. It's been shown that just a small % of Muslim extremists in a community of moderates (Muslims or others), can have a big ideological influence. Sharia Law, anyone?

[Steely Dan]

Latest from Turkey - Aside from trying to provoke military confrontation by harassing Israeli-Greek joint military exercises Turkey is also turning a blind eye to Al Qaeda backed forces massing in southern Turkey in preparation for moving into Syria. So much for concerns about Turkey's border with Syria, unless of course you are Syrian that is.

Antakya, Turkey: Hundreds of al-Qaeda recruits are being kept in safe houses in southern Turkey, before being smuggled over the border to wage "jihad" in Syria.

The network of hideouts is enabling a steady flow of foreign fighters - including Britons and Australians - to join the country's civil war, according to some of the operatives involved in the process.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/turkey-a-launching-pad-for-syriabound-alqaeda-jihadists-experts-say-20131031-2wjsn.html#ixzz2jJZeZDGJ

Though I guess there is cooperation with EU based jihaddists.

[7by7]

If you think that Turkey being in or out of the EU will make any difference to the ease or difficulty with which those currently entering the EU illegally, for whatever purpose, can do so, then you are very much mistaken.

[boomerangutang]

If you think that Turkey being in or out of the EU will make any difference to the ease or difficulty with which those currently entering the EU illegally, for whatever purpose, can do so, then you are very much mistaken.

How about the drowning boat people we hear about each week? They're mostly trying to make landfall from Africa, but steering a bit to the east, and slipping in to Turkey (by land or sea) would be easier.

To put it simply: Enabling Turkey to join the EU would be opening a backdoor to a flood of refugees, and would further cripple welfare mechanisms in other European countries. It would also hasten the Muslimfication of Europe.

[RickBradford]

Sharia Law, anyone?

Sharia Law already operates in the UK (there are 85 sharia courts) and is active in the areas of family and criminal law, thus permitting husbands to beat wives with impunity, forced marriage for girls aged 5, women denied custody of children, female genital mutilation and calls for stoning as punishment for adultery or pre-marital sex.

Some other European countries may fear a sharia invasion, but not the UK -- it has already surrendered.

http://www.d-intl.com/2013/09/08/sharia-law-riding-high-in-britain/?lang=en

[simple1]

Sharia Law, anyone?

Sharia Law already operates in the UK (there are 85 sharia courts) and is active in the areas of family and criminal law, thus permitting husbands to beat wives with impunity, forced marriage for girls aged 5, women denied custody of children, female genital mutilation and calls for stoning as punishment for adultery or pre-marital sex.

Some other European countries may fear a sharia invasion, but not the UK -- it has already surrendered.

http://www.d-intl.com/2013/09/08/sharia-law-riding-high-in-britain/?lang=en

UK Courts do not legally recognise Sharia Law role in civil/criminal proceeding, there is not a pluralistic legal environment.

From the URL that covers this issue in detail below.. "Sharia law has no jurisdiction under the law of England and Wales and the courts do not recognise it. There is no parallel court system in this country, and we have no intention of changing the position in any part of England and Wales".

http://www.lawandreligionuk.com/2013/04/29/sharia-and-the-english-legal-system-the-governments-view/

[folium]

Sharia Law, anyone?

Sharia Law already operates in the UK (there are 85 sharia courts) and is active in the areas of family and criminal law, thus permitting husbands to beat wives with impunity, forced marriage for girls aged 5, women denied custody of children, female genital mutilation and calls for stoning as punishment for adultery or pre-marital sex.

Some other European countries may fear a sharia invasion, but not the UK -- it has already surrendered.

http://www.d-intl.com/2013/09/08/sharia-law-riding-high-in-britain/?lang=en

UK Courts do not legally recognise Sharia Law role in civil/criminal proceeding, there is not a pluralistic legal environment.

From the URL that covers this issue in detail below.. "Sharia law has no jurisdiction under the law of England and Wales and the courts do not recognise it. There is no parallel court system in this country, and we have no intention of changing the position in any part of England and Wales".

http://www.lawandreligionuk.com/2013/04/29/sharia-and-the-english-legal-system-the-governments-view/

Spot on Simple1.

Sharia courts have as much standing as the Jewish Batei Din. There has been a Beth Din in the UK since the early 1700's. I suppose that means the UK surrendered to the Jews 300 years ago or does that not fit the desired narrative?

[7by7]

Indeed, Muslim people in the UK may go to a Sharia court if they wish to resolve civil disputes, as Jewish people in the UK have been doing with Battei Din for centuries; but such resolution is entirely voluntary, has no legal standing anywhere in the UK and is unenforceable under UK law.

Nowhere in the UK does the law allow "husbands to beat wives with impunity, forced marriage for girls aged 5, women denied custody of children, female genital mutilation and calls for stoning as punishment for adultery or pre-marital sex."

• Wife ( or husband, or partner) beating is a crime in the UK.
• Forced marriage is a crime in the UK, and the minimum legal age for marriage in the UK is 16.
• Child custody in the UK is decided by the UK courts. If a divorcing couple do come to their own arrangement that arrangement has to be confirmed by the court. If one partner removes any children from the other parent without permission of that other parent or in breach of a custody order then that is possibly kidnaping. Which is a crime in the UK.
• Genital mutilation of females is a crime in the UK.
• Incitement to violence is a crime in the UK.
• Stoning is a crime in the UK.

Those who are accused of such crimes are arrested and tried under UK law. If found guilty they are subject to the punishments proscribed by UK statute or common law.

[7by7]

If you think that Turkey being in or out of the EU will make any difference to the ease or difficulty with which those currently entering the EU illegally, for whatever purpose, can do so, then you are very much mistaken.

How about the drowning boat people we hear about each week? They're mostly trying to make landfall from Africa, but steering a bit to the east, and slipping in to Turkey (by land or sea) would be easier.

To put it simply: Enabling Turkey to join the EU would be opening a backdoor to a flood of refugees, and would further cripple welfare mechanisms in other European countries. It would also hasten the Muslimfication of Europe.

If Turkey were easier for these desperate people to get to than Italy, then so is Greece. So why are they going to Italy, not Greece?

Presumably because Italy is the nearest landfall from their departure point.

Most of these refugees are from Eritrea, and although the population there is roughly equally split between Muslims and Christians, only 'approved' forms of worship are allowed.

From Wikipedia

The registered, census-based religions are the Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church (a miaphysite Oriental Orthodox denomination), the Roman Catholic Church, Eritrean Lutheran Church, and Sunnite Islam. All other religions are persecuted, including other denominations of Islam, such as Shi'ism, and other denominations of Christianity, such as any of the myriad Protestant denominations. All denominations of Christianity enjoyed freedom of worship until 2002 when the government outlawed worship and assembly outside the 'registered' denominations. All groups who worship secretly in a house or any other unregistered place of assembly are arrested and imprisoned without charge or trial. Religious prisoners are often tortured in Eritrea. Freedom of worship is one of the top reasons thousands of Eritreans flee the country. There are thousands of Eritrean refugees in Ethiopia and the Sudan seeking asylum in Europe or another region of the West.

So the likelihood is that many, maybe most, of those desperate enough to try and enter Europe by this route are Christian.

As for Turkey hastening the 'Muslimification' of Europe:-

The Muslim population of the EU currently makes up approximately 3% of the population.

The population of the EU is approximately 740 million.

The population of Turkey is approximately 74 million (most of whom, but not all, are Muslim).

So if Turkey is granted accession this only increase the Muslim population of the EU to 12.9% of the total population.

Hardly the 'Muslimfication' of Europe!

Of course, there are states wholly in Europe, though not yet in the EU, with substantial Muslim populations. Albania and Bosnia-Herzegovina for example.

Finally, have those arguing that Turkey should not be admitted to the EU because most of it is in Asia considered Russia? Most of that is in Asia, but it is considered a European county.

Edited November 1, 2013 by 7by7

[Publicus]

I have no clue what business it is of the US as to whether Turkey joins the EU. If I were the EU I wouldn't care one whit what the US thought about it.

If Turkey was a US neighbor and wanted free access for its 70+ million people, I guarantee you the answer would be "No," just as it is with Mexico.

A difference would be that Mexico has a Christian (Catholic) culture and isn't to be feared for much more than the drug smuggling and criminal gangs who mostly fight and kill each other. The other problem of course is the cost of hosting them and letting them integrate.

But a Muslim country on the border with free access? Forgetaboutit.

You know I recognize you and I agree to agree, and agree to disagree, depending on this issue and that I can confirm our personal liking and respect is good. We mostly agree on foreign issues, disagree on domestic ones, which is all fine.

The US Government has supported Turkey's accession to the EU for a number of reasons, but Turkey being in Nato has been a primary one. Now, however, with the AKP government ready to purchase the anti-missile system from the CCP-PRC, the US (and Nato) are expressing deep and strongly serious concerns. The deal hasn't been signed yet, so PM Erdogan is proceeding in regular order, i.e., announcing his tendency before actually executing it. This means of course the US and Nato have the fair opportunity to express themselves on this, which they are doing with urgency and great emphasis.

So by having supported Turkey in its accession policy, the US is much more focused on relations with Turkey than with the EU In other words, I should think the EU's views and attitudes in this is mostly one of nothingness, that it couldn't care less about the US position concerning accession.

Now, however, with Erdogan buddying up to Beijing in such a way, the US (and Nato) are having pressing discussions with Erdogan's government We'll see if these factors may have any impact on Erdogan. Erdogan is certainly having an impact on the US, Nato and the EU.

The aggressive retrograde, anti-Attaturk policies of the dogmatic and unbending Erdogan and his AKP may well change the nature of Turkey's relations with both its neighbors and with distant centers of power. Turkey could end up in an international no-man's land.

[transam]

God 'elp the UK if they are alloyed to join.

The UK (and others) have enough problems NOW with the infiltration of spongers.

[7by7]

I suggest, Transam, that you go and read through this entire topic again.

You may then be capable of posting a comment which has some merit, rather than one based purely on ignorance and prejudice.

I look forward to reading an intelligent post from you on why Turkey should not be admitted to the EU.

Edited November 1, 2013 by 7by7

[transam]

I suggest, Transam, that you go and read through this entire topic again.

You may then be capable of posting a comment which has some merit, rather than one based purely on ignorance and prejudice.

I look forward to reading an intelligent post from you on why Turkey should not be admitted to the EU.

, same reason Greece shouldn't have. Gawd, the blind will never see.

Oh, I forgot, if Turkey join I can retire there with nooooooooooo pension problems. WOW, come on down.

[7by7]

Rather than simply using your usual trick of hitting the smiley button, why not enlighten us all with some actual argument?

Why should Greece not have been admitted? If you mean it's current financial difficulties, then the same could be said for Spain and Italy!

Or are you as prejudiced against the Greek Orthodox Church as you are against Islam?

[sustento]

If you think that Turkey being in or out of the EU will make any difference to the ease or difficulty with which those currently entering the EU illegally, for whatever purpose, can do so, then you are very much mistaken.

How about the drowning boat people we hear about each week? They're mostly trying to make landfall from Africa, but steering a bit to the east, and slipping in to Turkey (by land or sea) would be easier.

They're mostly making landfall in Italy (Lampedusa seems popular). "Steering a bit to the east" would increase their journey by 800 miles. Ask your Mum to buy you an atlas for Christmas.

http://www.airmilescalculator.com/distance/lmp-to-adb/

[transam]

Rather than simply using your usual trick of hitting the smiley button, why not enlighten us all with some actual argument?

Why should Greece not have been admitted? If you mean it's current financial difficulties, then the same could be said for Spain and Italy!

Or are you as prejudiced against the Greek Orthodox Church as you are against Islam?

<deleted> has religion got to do with anything ?. Wasn't it proven that Greece did not submit accurate financial stuff to creep into the EU but we bailed them out. ?

If Turkey get in, will not zillions of Turks try and get to the land of handouts the same as others have ?

Don't answer, you will have an excuse as usual.

[7by7]

I look forward to reading an intelligent post from you on why Turkey should not be admitted to the EU.

Still waiting.

I wont be holding my breath.

[transam]

I look forward to reading an intelligent post from you on why Turkey should not be admitted to the EU.

Still waiting.

I wont be holding my breath.

You quote yourself which was expected.

But, perhaps you can answer why I read via Yahoo and google news that the UK has a big problem with EU spongers, lost EU folk that they cannot find or control, and paying out benifits to others that have not paid into the system. But, it seems not only EU folk are causing the problems.

To me it seems that UK pensioners are causing the problem by retiring.

PS. Forgot, what do you think about asylum seekers being given an 8000 quid a month residence. ?

Edited November 1, 2013 by transam

[7by7]

The UK does not have a big problem with EU spongers, though certain members of the press are trying to convince the gullible that we do.

I have commented on this before, this post being the most recent. I will repeat it here:

An article in the Daily Mail recently stated there are now 620,000 immigrants in the UK from EEC countries unemployed, claiming benefits for themselves and families,

The article you refer to was about the publication of this report.

The article was yet more misleading reporting from the Daily Mail. The Sunday Telegraph left out some important facts when it wrote about this report as well.

EU study shreds the myth of "benefit tourism"

The report also contradicts the claim, published in yesterday's Sunday Telegraph (and based on the study's findings) that "600,000 unemployed migrants are living in Britain...at a cost of £1.5 billion to the NHS alone". The 600,000 figure turns out not to refer to those who are unemployed but to those who are economically inactive, including pensioners, students and the disabled. Of this total, those out of work represent just 28%. In addition, the figures published in the study show that EU migrants are less likely than their UK counterparts to be economically inactive or unemployed. Thirty per cent of migrants are "non-active" compared to 43% of British citizens, while 7.5% are out of work, compared to 7.9% of UK nationals (the unemployment rate at the time the study was conducted).

Benefit tourism claims: European Commission urges UK to provide evidence

Some newspapers have noted that the report shows that there are more than 600,000 "non-active" EU migrants in the UK - describing them as "unemployed".

But the Commission said this figure included older schoolchildren, students, the spouses of migrant workers, and retired people..........Fewer than 38,000 were claiming Jobseeker's Allowance, it added.

As for asylum seekers "being given 8000 quid a month residence" the only reference to this I can find is this three year old article about a former asylum seeker. Whilst we can argue all day about the rights and wrongs of both asylum and the UK benefits system; this man and his family had been granted residency in the UK in 1999 and as he is described as an unemployed bus conductor (Bus conductor! Shows how old the article is.) had obviously previously worked in the UK.

Yet you want use this one case as evidence that all asylum seekers in the UK are being given massive handouts! Laughable.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with Turkey.

Edit to fix links.

Edited November 1, 2013 by 7by7

[transam]

As I said, the blind will never see.

What do you think is the cost to the UK tax payer of hand outs to the EU, AND immigrants AND migrants in the UK ?

Do you not see that another ''poor'' EU member will be another drain on the UK tax payer.?

BUT wait, UK pensioners will soon have to retire at 80 to pay for it, soooooooooooo, no problem eh

[7by7]

Migrants from the EU living in the UK can only claim those benefits to which they are entitled; the same as British migrant's living in other EU states.

Not many EU migrants living in the UK claim anything; see links in my previous.

Migrants from outside the EU can claim even less.

Indeed, you will never see. You have swallowed the Daily Mail's and similar paper's propaganda hook line and sinker.

I have answered all of your points, so now you revert to your silly smilies.

Edited November 1, 2013 by 7by7

[Scott]

This is going off-topic. The discussion is about Turkey's accession to the EU. Refugees etc. are off-topic.

Further off-topic posts are going to be deleted.

[Steely Dan]

To think I was once fairly supportive of Turkey joining the EU in the days before Erdogan came to power, I naively reasoned Turkey in the EU could cement the role model of a secular Muslim state. How wrong I was, but at least I woke up. Here is a good summary of the man.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Candidly-Speaking-Turkeys-Erdogan-An-autocratic-Islamist-bigot-330005

Erdogan seeks to conceal his true intentions and convey the illusion that he is himself a role model for an enlightened Islam which blends with democracy.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Erdogan is a fanatical Islamist and a vile bigot who lavishes praise on the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas and Hezbollah and whose behavior is more reminiscent of an Ottoman sultan than a democratically elected leader.

Autocratic Islamist bigot - Yes, that sums it up perfectly.

P.S Briefly Jewish religious laws are non-binding and only ever intended to apply to Jews. Sharia, whilst nominally subordinate to UK law is reinforced by strong peer pressure including violence and intimidation, there are even some who wish to enforce Sharia on non-Muslims as vigilante patrols and Sharia zone stickers in Bethnal green demonstrate. Sorry for the detour off topic, but drawing equivalence between Jewish laws and Sharia is very misleading.

[7by7]

Ah yes, The Jerusalem Post; an unbiased journal on Islamic matters if ever there was one!

[7by7]

Forgot to add, though it's not really on topic.

Sharia law is not 'nominally subordinate' to UK law. It is not law in the UK at all.

The equivalence between Sharia law and Jewish law in the UK is not misleading. Sharia law and Jewish law both have exactly the same legal status in the UK; none at all.