ICJ begins reading verdict of Preah Vihear dispute

[sms747]

Have been following the local news on this subject for a while and understand that Thailand lost the temple to Cambodia only.

The land surrounding the area still belongs to Thailand, which was the main concern of the Thais.

I watched the court ruling live and that is not what was said at all

[braverrouge]

Have been following the local news on this subject for a while and understand that Thailand lost the temple to Cambodia only.

The land surrounding the area still belongs to Thailand, which was the main concern of the Thais.

I watched the court ruling live and that is not what was said at all

What did it say then ?

[spirit47]

The roots of the dispute lie in maps drawn up in 1907 during French colonial rule.

Don't think that real Thais will accept this court...And what this Gouverment do now.

[laolover88]

I have got it now. It is just like your house. The land has Chanote and is Thailand's (maybe or your wife';s husband's) but the temple is definitely Khmer and they have a very long lease.

What juvenilia!

[Jip99]

I hope that this decision will result in access once again being available, from the Thai side, to the wonderful site

[mrdome]

Good news for Cambodia. I am very happy with this verdict. Let's hope there will be no more fighting and damages done.

Edited November 11, 2013 by mrdome

[Rob8891]

Have been following the local news on this subject for a while and understand that Thailand lost the temple to Cambodia only.

The land surrounding the area still belongs to Thailand, which was the main concern of the Thais.

I'm not sure how many Germans are among this group but if you think back when Germany was divided and becam West & East Germany you should understand how the locals in that area were feeling.

Not correct. (1) The temple was not in contention at all. The court clearly rules in 1962 that it belonged to Cambodia, case closed. (2) The land around it - some has been adjucated as belonging to to Cambodia, using the natural features of the mountain promontory as the deciding factor, and the rest was not ruled on as the IJC confined themselves to an interpretation of the original 1962 ruling. (Thailand had tried to claim the ruling referred solely to the temple buildings and not to any land around it). The IJC ruled that the initial ruling extended to the entire promontory on which the temple sits but does nto cover the surrounding valleys nor an adjacent hill.

So basically neither side scored a total victory. The ruling was nuanced and, to my eyes, quite reasonable.

Perhaps this will help you decide exactly who has what.... the findings of the ICJ. If you don't get the answer, you'll certainly find a cure for insomnia!

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/151/17714.pdf

Enjoy!

[NanLaew]

...... Shin Clan have now fulfilled their deal to Cambodia and their Oil and Gas companies will get a large slice of greenback pie. ...

What are you smoking? Cambodia's oil and gas companies?

In recoverable reserves, Cambodia is as prospective as a pensioners Friday night balloon chase on Walking Street.

The nation of 14 million people, sandwiched between Thailand and Vietnam, is flush with natural resources. Veins of iron and gold run beneath its soil. Natural forests offer a wealth of timber. Most promising of all are Cambodia's deposits of oil and gas, believed to snake offshore all the way through the kingdom's lush interior.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/18/cambodias-coming-oil-weal_n_176384.html

Well bugger me! The Huff Post. The font of all geological and geophysical knowledge. They even use the correct scientific terms of "believed to snake". I am so impressed. NOT!

I have done exploration work on most of the planet's oil frontiers for the past 35-odd years. Ghana? Check. Kazakhstan? Check. Falklands? Check. Burma (way, way before the Myanmar rigmarole). Check. Kampuchea?.... nope, nada, zilch (but great fun looking).

All a bit premature but hey, that doesn't stop people trying to sell the pig in a poke that they bought into.

Oh... I just read the article quoted. April 2009???!!! As I said, don't hold your breath. There's no candles OR balloons.

[wonder6281]

While they are at it, why give the land back to the Malay's that the Japanese gave to Thailand during WW2 for being helpful. No more insurgents down south!

[jpinx]

I reckon this is the guts of it ......

Quoted from the released judgement.......

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/151/17714.pdf

The Court notes that the principal dispute between the

Parties concerns the territorial scope of the second operative paragraph, namely the territorial

extent of the “vicinity” of the Temple of Preah Vihear. In this regard, the Court finds that the

limits of the promontory of Preah Vihear, to the south of the AnnexI map line, consist of naturalfeatures. To the east, south and south-west, the promontory drops in a steep escarpment to the Cambodian plain. To the west and north-west, the land drops in a slope, less steep than the

escarpment but nonetheless pronounced, into the valley which separates Preah Vihear from the

neighbouring hill of Phnom Trap, a valley which itself drops away in the south to the Cambodian

plain. The Court further considers that Phnom Trap lay outside the disputed area

and that the 1962 Judgment did not address the question whether it was located in Thai or Cambodian territory.

Accordingly, the Court concludes that the promontory of Preah Vihear ends at the foot of the hill of

Phnom Trap, that is to say, where the ground begins to rise from the valley.

In the north, the limit of the promontory is the Annex I map line, from a point to the north-east of the Temple where that line abuts the escarpment to a point in the north-west where the ground begins to rise from the

valley, at the foot of the hill of Phnom Trap.

The Court considers that the second operative paragraph of the 1962 Judgment required Thailand to withdraw from the whole of the territory of the promontory, thus defined, to Thai territory any Thai personnel stationed on the promontory.

Edited November 11, 2013 by jpinx

[Gulfsailor]

ICJ awarded Cambodia enough land just West of the temple to build a road up there. The Thais can stay on their hill watching all the tourists go from Cambodia towards the temple, instead of going there from Thai side. That's what it was all about, so there is no status quo. Cambodia got what it came for.

[earthpig]

Outrage!

European imperialists created this problem, and now their kangaroo court attempts to rob Thailand of what is clearly its own.

It is absurd that the massive plateau and promontory on which Preah Vihar rests is everywhere part of Thailand except somehow for just this tiny sliver of land on which the temple sits. How long could,say, a similar Laotian claim to land south of the Mekong endure similar ridicule? Well, the topographical features at Preah Vihar are arguably even more pronounced than those of the mighty Mekong.

The high plateau is everywhere Thailand and must remain so. The Thais make no claim to the land beneath the plateau, and nor would Kampuchea be making its absurd claims to the land above if it hadnt been for European interference in local affairs.

Nor is there no logic to the argument that some put forward that because the Khmer built the temple it should belong to them. Is the beautiful Khmer temple at Panom Rung, kilometers not meters inside Thai territory, now also to be given to Kampuchea because it was built by the Khmer? Nor is the fact that the temple faces north an argument for Thai sovereignty. Topography alone is the historical basis of the frontier, and this dispute is the result of a cartographical sleight of hand made by the French imperialists.

Let us hope that Thailand will immediately reject this outrage from the Europeans and remind them that the dispute has its origins in French colonial mischief. Then we might hope that Thailand would invite Kampuchea to negotiations on allowing its citizens access to the temple.

My sympathies go to the Thai people and government who are forced to suffer this unwarranted affront to their national dignity. Let us hope that this outrage brings together all elements of Thai society in unified opposition to meddling by outsiders.

[a99az]

The other paper has a completely contradictory statement in the "breaking news" section.

What would you except a The Thai press to say.

[jpinx]

.........

Let us hope that Thailand will immediately reject this outrage from the Europeans and remind them that the dispute has its origins in French colonial mischief. Then we might hope that Thailand would invite Kampuchea to negotiations on allowing its citizens access to the temple.

..........

I think you'll find that that's been tried a few times already and it hasn't worked out too well, hence the current situation.

[Soutpeel]

...... Shin Clan have now fulfilled their deal to Cambodia and their Oil and Gas companies will get a large slice of greenback pie. ...

What are you smoking? Cambodia's oil and gas companies?

In recoverable reserves, Cambodia is as prospective as a pensioners Friday night balloon chase on Walking Street.

The nation of 14 million people, sandwiched between Thailand and Vietnam, is flush with natural resources. Veins of iron and gold run beneath its soil. Natural forests offer a wealth of timber. Most promising of all are Cambodia's deposits of oil and gas, believed to snake offshore all the way through the kingdom's lush interior.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/18/cambodias-coming-oil-weal_n_176384.html

Well bugger me! The Huff Post. The font of all geological and geophysical knowledge. They even use the correct scientific terms of "believed to snake". I am so impressed. NOT!

I have done exploration work on most of the planet's oil frontiers for the past 35-odd years. Ghana? Check. Kazakhstan? Check. Falklands? Check. Burma (way, way before the Myanmar rigmarole). Check. Kampuchea?.... nope, nada, zilch (but great fun looking).

All a bit premature but hey, that doesn't stop people trying to sell the pig in a poke that they bought into.

Oh... I just read the article quoted. April 2009???!!! As I said, don't hold your breath. There's no candles OR balloons.

Although I agree with the sentiment of your post completely I think you will find there is almost certainly gas in the disputed waters, large volumes of oil as TV,s resident expert geologist are wetting their panties over ? Not a hope in h*ll and even the gas reserves may not be economic. The fact is nobody has done any exploration wells in the disputed waters however there may have been some sneaky seismic done from the Thai side...

[hellodolly]

They have to eat humble pie again soon over the man in Dubai alt=clap2.gif width=31 height=25>

Yes they do the problem is it is a pie cooked up by the Yellow shirts

Storm in a tea cup. There was little doubt that this would be the ruling by the IJC based on past discussion and documentary evidence. Thai government has simple kept this in popular focus for nationalistic and personal gain. I suppose that in the true spirit of Thainess the baby will now spit the dummy.

I disagree it is the yellow shirts who have put the spot light on it. Every one was happy with it the way it was. the two countries were working out an agreeable plan until the yellow shirts for lack of any other reason for being in existence stirred up the people with it about Nationalism. If they had told the people the truth that it was only 4 square kilometers that were useless and no body in the area on either side of the border cared about it and that the Temple was no questions asked on the Cambodian side of the line they would not have been able to get all the attention they wanted so they with held the facts.

I definatly am not a Thaksin fan but he did have a working proposition with Cambodia. Now with the limited understanding I have the Government still has a chance to work out a compromise. To the benefit of both sides. It just depends on the people being sensible.

Edited November 11, 2013 by hellodolly

[Showbags]

Outrage!

European imperialists created this problem, and now their kangaroo court attempts to rob Thailand of what is clearly its own.

It is absurd that the massive plateau and promontory on which Preah Vihar rests is everywhere part of Thailand except somehow for just this tiny sliver of land on which the temple sits. How long could,say, a similar Laotian claim to land south of the Mekong endure similar ridicule? Well, the topographical features at Preah Vihar are arguably even more pronounced than those of the mighty Mekong.

The high plateau is everywhere Thailand and must remain so. The Thais make no claim to the land beneath the plateau, and nor would Kampuchea be making its absurd claims to the land above if it hadnt been for European interference in local affairs.

Nor is there no logic to the argument that some put forward that because the Khmer built the temple it should belong to them. Is the beautiful Khmer temple at Panom Rung, kilometers not meters inside Thai territory, now also to be given to Kampuchea because it was built by the Khmer? Nor is the fact that the temple faces north an argument for Thai sovereignty. Topography alone is the historical basis of the frontier, and this dispute is the result of a cartographical sleight of hand made by the French imperialists.

Let us hope that Thailand will immediately reject this outrage from the Europeans and remind them that the dispute has its origins in French colonial mischief. Then we might hope that Thailand would invite Kampuchea to negotiations on allowing its citizens access to the temple.

My sympathies go to the Thai people and government who are forced to suffer this unwarranted affront to their national dignity. Let us hope that this outrage brings together all elements of Thai society in unified opposition to meddling by outsiders.

They are quite used to it, no biggy.

Water of a somchais back.

[Showbags]

.........

Let us hope that Thailand will immediately reject this outrage from the Europeans and remind them that the dispute has its origins in French colonial mischief. Then we might hope that Thailand would invite Kampuchea to negotiations on allowing its citizens access to the temple.

..........

I think you'll find that that's been tried a few times already and it hasn't worked out too well, hence the current situation.

No, he means a serious huff and puff this time.

[Gulfsailor]

Outrage!

European imperialists created this problem, and now their kangaroo court attempts to rob Thailand of what is clearly its own.

It is absurd that the massive plateau and promontory on which Preah Vihar rests is everywhere part of Thailand except somehow for just this tiny sliver of land on which the temple sits. How long could,say, a similar Laotian claim to land south of the Mekong endure similar ridicule? Well, the topographical features at Preah Vihar are arguably even more pronounced than those of the mighty Mekong.

The high plateau is everywhere Thailand and must remain so. The Thais make no claim to the land beneath the plateau, and nor would Kampuchea be making its absurd claims to the land above if it hadnt been for European interference in local affairs.

Nor is there no logic to the argument that some put forward that because the Khmer built the temple it should belong to them. Is the beautiful Khmer temple at Panom Rung, kilometers not meters inside Thai territory, now also to be given to Kampuchea because it was built by the Khmer? Nor is the fact that the temple faces north an argument for Thai sovereignty. Topography alone is the historical basis of the frontier, and this dispute is the result of a cartographical sleight of hand made by the French imperialists.

Let us hope that Thailand will immediately reject this outrage from the Europeans and remind them that the dispute has its origins in French colonial mischief. Then we might hope that Thailand would invite Kampuchea to negotiations on allowing its citizens access to the temple.

My sympathies go to the Thai people and government who are forced to suffer this unwarranted affront to their national dignity. Let us hope that this outrage brings together all elements of Thai society in unified opposition to meddling by outsiders.

Excellent arguments, except for the fact that you are 60 years late with it. Subsequently all maps circulated in Thailand(up until a few years ago) used the Annex1 map to show its borders. Thais thus accepted the situation as it stands now. That's also the reason why this annex1 map was ruled in today's ruling to be more significant than the actual wording in the original 1962 ruling.

[jonesthebaker]

ICJ got it right... now it's time to follow the umpires decision.

The only thing that makes it right is that the ICJ decided it.

I think the 1962 decision was wrong myself, but the ICJ decided otherwise.

and your opinion counts for .....?

[JoeLing]

Look and learn ,

Thailand and Cambodia have a ruling over: - a "few stones" and some territory.

Meanwhile in Europe the dispute still goes on over: - "one stone" and some seagull s**t.

Just don't know who should look, who should learn?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

OK... so this is really good... I've now read the entire six pages of this thread thus far, and have yet to see anything more than speculation about just how much territory of the disputed 4.6 kilometer area that was before the court has been awarded to Cambodia, and how much was left out of the ruling.

It's clear the court limited its ruling for Cambodia to the temple itself and the "promontory" area where the temple is located, as defined by the court in various descriptive terms. But was all of that promontory area part of the disputed 4.6 kilometers, and if so, how much area in kilometers did that definition represent?

As best as I can tell from reading this, the court didn't award Thailand anything -- just awarded the temple and its promontory area to Cambodia, and left the remaining areas out of its ruling. So presumably that leaves some part of the border area still as an unresolved dispute between the two countries.

I see the BKK Post is saying "most" of the 4.6 square kilo area originally under dispute was left unresolved by the court. After subtracting the temple and its promontory, I wonder just how much is left unresolved.

Edited November 11, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[jpinx]

OK... so this is really good... I've now read the entire six pages of this thread thus far, and have yet to see anything more than speculation about just how much territory of the disputed 4.6 kilometer area that was before the court has been awarded to Cambodia, and how much was left out of the ruling.

It's clear the court limited its ruling for Cambodia to the temple itself and the "promontory" area where the temple is located, as defined by the court in various descriptive terms. But was all of that promontory area part of the disputed 4.6 kilometers, and if so, how much area in kilometers did that definition represent?

As best as I can tell from reading this, the court didn't award Thailand anything -- just awarded the temple and its promontory area to Cambodia, and left the remaining areas out of its ruling. So presumably that leaves some part of the border area still as an unresolved dispute between the two countries.

Rather than wasting your time reading the speculation in here -- go and read the judgement and decide for yourself

[Cuban]

Map to define the exact ruling ?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I always "waste" my time here (in your words)....before looking elsewhere for the missing facts.

[jpinx]

Map to define the exact ruling ?

yea - well -- that's the rub --- the maps are not drawn by the court -- only a verbal description of the boundaries is given. As for maps --- it depends on whose version you want to look at

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Here's the AP's latest report... No mention of the 4.6 square kilometers or how much area the promontory represents. Also mentions this court ruling drew no lines on any map.

http://news.yahoo.com/un-court-cambodia-sovereignty-temple-land-102548587.html

In a unanimous decision, the International Court of Justice said that a 1962 ruling by its judges gave Cambodia sovereignty over the Preah Vihear promontory and said Thailand was therefore "under an obligation to withdraw from that territory the Thai military or police forces or other guards or keepers that were stationed there."

Cambodian Foreign Minister Hor Namhong said he was happy with the ruling even though it did not give Cambodia all the land it was hoping for. Speaking on Cambodian state television TVK, he called the decision "a gift from the International Court of Justice to our Kingdom of Cambodia."

Edited November 11, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[JSixpack]

European imperialists created this problem, and now their kangaroo court attempts to rob Thailand of what is clearly its own.

Troll nonsense. Had a few Changs, have you?

The judgment of the Court was unanimous. So, to choose one of the numerous non-Europeans judges who might have dissented, Judge Xue Hanqin of China is a European imperialist lackey.

Edited November 11, 2013 by JSixpack

[lineofentry]

Don't know what the Thai media is pumping out, but my mrs is convinced the verdict was a draw with a balanced outcome for both sides. Think I'll take the dog for a walk.

[edwinchester]

Outrage!

 

European imperialists created this problem, and now their kangaroo court attempts to rob Thailand of what is clearly its own.  

 

It is absurd that the massive plateau and promontory on which Preah Vihar rests is everywhere part of Thailand except somehow for just this tiny sliver of land on which the temple sits. How long could,say,  a similar Laotian claim to land south of the Mekong endure similar ridicule? Well, the topographical features at Preah Vihar are arguably even more pronounced than those of the mighty Mekong.  

 

The high plateau is everywhere Thailand and must remain so.  The Thais make no claim to the land beneath the plateau, and nor would Kampuchea be making its absurd claims to the land above if it hadnt been for European interference in local affairs.

 

Nor is there  no logic to the argument that some put forward that because the Khmer built  the temple it should belong to them. Is the beautiful Khmer temple at Panom Rung, kilometers not meters inside Thai territory,  now also to be given to Kampuchea because it was built by the Khmer?  Nor is the fact that the temple faces north an argument for Thai sovereignty.  Topography alone is the historical basis of the frontier, and this dispute is the result of a cartographical sleight of hand made by the French imperialists. 

 

Let us hope that Thailand will immediately reject this outrage from the Europeans and remind them that the dispute has its origins in French colonial mischief.  Then we might hope that Thailand would invite Kampuchea to negotiations on allowing its citizens access to the temple. 

 

My sympathies go to the Thai people and government who are forced to suffer this unwarranted affront to their national dignity.  Let us hope that this outrage brings together all elements of Thai society in unified opposition to meddling by outsiders. 

 

 

 

 

Outsiders are not meddling. The ICJ was asked by both Thailand and Cambidia to rule on their territorial dispute.