ICJ begins reading verdict of Preah Vihear dispute

[culicine]

The other paper has a completely contradictory statement in the "breaking news" section.

From the other paper, it seems that not the whole 4.6kms is Cambodian. That's the way I read it anyway.

This is my understanding also. The court rules d that the "promontory" belongs to Cambodia. I think the "disputed" 4.6 km includes some that is not on the promontory. What I am hearing is that 1-2 km of the 4.6 is affected by the ruling only.

1.2 or 4.6 doesn't really matter, Thailand has "lost" land big big loss of face

And to Cambodians too, who many Thai consider beneath them...it's got to hurt a lot. Let's see if Thailand can take this graciously and accept the court's ruling. Thailand should retreat or Cambodia have the right to force them from the land. I hope it doesn't come to that.

[lostinisaan]

The other paper has a completely contradictory statement in the "breaking news" section.

From the other paper, it seems that not the whole 4.6kms is Cambodian. That's the way I read it anyway.

This is my understanding also. The court rules d that the "promontory" belongs to Cambodia. I think the "disputed" 4.6 km includes some that is not on the promontory. What I am hearing is that 1-2 km of the 4.6 is affected by the ruling only.

1.2 or 4.6 doesn't really matter, Thailand has "lost" land big big loss of face

Not to forget the loss of big money. Hundreds of buses every day was good money for all involved.

[johnlandy]

Can anyone please help me here.

We have this thread reporting that decisions have been made and we have another thread saying that the FM is saying the court's decision has been delayed until Feb because they are busy with other cases. What on earth is the truth and what's going on. Thank you

Can't help you other than to say, just remember that this relates to the realm so believe nothing that comes out of the mouth of politicians and other people in positions of supposed authority "Absolutely NOTHING"

[noikrit]

The foriegn ministry of Thailand will be giving a live press conference at 18.40. Where they will be explaining in detail the courts findings.

Was first scheduled for 18.00hr .... hmmm bet the hot line to Dubai is RED hot !

[PeterSmiles]

The other paper has a completely contradictory statement in the "breaking news" section.

From the other paper, it seems that not the whole 4.6kms is Cambodian. That's the way I read it anyway.

This is my understanding also. The court rules d that the "promontory" belongs to Cambodia. I think the "disputed" 4.6 km includes some that is not on the promontory. What I am hearing is that 1-2 km of the 4.6 is affected by the ruling only.

If that is the case, that is a very very elegant solution. That is what the other paper states, in that there is a hill inside the disputed bit, which will not be given to Cambodia.

Is that the hill where the Thai snipers will be positioned ?

[Trembly]

It looks to me that the Thai side were simply incapable of proving to the court that Siam signed the 1904 demarcation treaty with France under duress . . . why? Probably because the 1904 Siamese did everything in their power to hide the evidence that they signed the treaty under duress - in order to save face!

[Soutpeel]

The foriegn ministry of Thailand will be giving a live press conference at 18.40. Where they will be explaining in detail the courts findings.

Was first scheduled for 18.00hr .... hmmm bet the hot line to Dubai is RED hot !

Maybe the plan is to mobilise the red shirts to the border pay them THB 500 and tell them to burn the temple down

[Ticketmaster]

I have the texts of the court's opinion in English, thank you very much, Harry. Now I KNOW it has been translated into Thai, and the Thai government cannot very well censure THAT document. Does anybody have a link to the Thai translation? I would love to circulate a true story in Thai to my Thai friends for a change. I am quite sure the sordid tale that is told in the world court opinion will NEVER find its way into the Thai media.

[lungmi]

from BBC News.

Edited November 11, 2013 by lungmi

[otherstuff1957]

Looking at the actual judgement, I don't see that the 'other' hill, Panom Trap is awarded to either Thailand OR Cambodia! Here is the wording:

The Court further considers that Phnom Trap lay outside the disputed area and that the 1962

Judgment did not address the question whether it was located in Thai or Cambodian territory.

Accordingly, the Court concludes that the promontory of Preah Vihear ends at the foot of the hill of

Phnom Trap, that is to say, where the ground begins to rise from the valley.

In the north, the limit of the promontory is the Annex I map line, from a point to the north-east of the Temple where that

line abuts the escarpment to a point in the north-west where the ground begins to rise from the valley, at the foot of the hill of Phnom Trap.

[coma]

The other paper has a completely contradictory statement in the "breaking news" section.

From the other paper, it seems that not the whole 4.6kms is Cambodian. That's the way I read it anyway.

This is my understanding also. The court rules d that the "promontory" belongs to Cambodia. I think the "disputed" 4.6 km includes some that is not on the promontory. What I am hearing is that 1-2 km of the 4.6 is affected by the ruling only.

If that is the case, that is a very very elegant solution. That is what the other paper states, in that there is a hill inside the disputed bit, which will not be given to Cambodia.

That is how I read it. The hill the court cannot rule on is called Phnom Trap.

[kimamey]

I don't see Thai TV being that anxious to incite further discord in the midst of an already raging protest. 'News' can wait - for now, look to the West for news about the east.

No you can probably rely on blue lightning tv or whatever they call themselves to do that

I'm sure you know the name really.

On a serious note let's hope the more legitimate peaceful protests don't get hijacked by those against this decision and become violent.

[Baerboxer]

I don't see Thai TV being that anxious to incite further discord in the midst of an already raging protest. 'News' can wait - for now, look to the West for news about the east.

No you can probably rely on blue lightning tv or whatever they call themselves to do that

I'm sure PTP's personal TV channels will be claiming this is a victory, thanks to the good relationships forged by the Shin Clan with the Hun Sen Clan.

[coma]

The foriegn ministry of Thailand will be giving a live press conference at 18.40. Where they will be explaining in detail the courts findings.

Was first scheduled for 18.00hr .... hmmm bet the hot line to Dubai is RED hot !

Maybe the plan is to mobilise the red shirts to the border pay them THB 500 and tell them to burn the temple down

I think they under estimated how much detail is in the courts findings. Going to take them a lot longer to go throught it.

[Carrerakiss]

Predictable. Did the Thai army and establishment really think they could act like gangsters internationally like they do domestically? Probably not, they just needed something to wind up the plebs to deflect attention from their nefarious conduct.

In Thailand there is 1 thing that is ALWAYS a constant, even if it is never spoken. It invades all facets of life:

Aim for the stars, the least you will do is at least hit the moon. Then tell everyone that you only ever intended on hitting the moon and the rest was lost in translation.

Not quite correct. Aim for the stars, don't get off the ground, tell everyone you did go to the stars, but are now back and very happy.

[Carrerakiss]

Bet Thailand wishes now that it didn't forget to appeal against the original ruling on the temple ownership. If they hadn't overlooked the deadline for appeal, they could have prolonged the ownership dispute virtually indefinitely.

But they didn't, the temple decision in favor of Cambodia stood, and so the surrounding land dispute started......now ended.

[unanimosity]

I'm waiting for the Thai version.

"And the First Runner Up is............."

[wilcopops]

2 countries having a stand-off about a promontory rock with a few old buildings......... how primitive! Just a minute! Doesn't that ring a bell? Well at least here the 2 countries are neighbours.......

[jpeg]

On the other hand..................

The whole decision is based on a french Colonial Map of 1902.

Knowing the French (and British) colonial doings in Asia, Africa and he Middle East one can not escape getting the idea the French did a bummer for Thailand.

Moreover, looking at the map, one can not escape the second idea the border line as drawn on that French map indicates something fishy going on.

Nothing fishy going on, it's just been announced it belongs to Cambodia, rightly in my view. Anyone who's been there knows that the original style for temples did not include garish paintwork and lots of sparkly bits

[waza]

Ok theres the decision, now what will be the fall out?

[JoeLing]

So, it took Cambodia and Thailand 49 years until someone thought:
"I wonder what this judgment really means? "
Then it took the ICJ over two years to interpret the judgment the Court delivered 1962 .
Will it take an other two years to translate the interpretation in to Thai and Khmer?
After that, how long will it take the "Clarifiers" to clarify?

[lwilk]

Last time I visited this temple, I was stopped on the Thai side and asked to pay to enter a National Park, then 500 metres later I was stopped and asked to pay for entry to the temple this still being on the Thai side, and finally the Cambodians rightfully asked for some money to enter the actual temple.

I wonder did the ICJ rule on extortion entrance fees ?

[fab4]

I don't see Thai TV being that anxious to incite further discord in the midst of an already raging protest. 'News' can wait - for now, look to the West for news about the east.

No you can probably rely on blue lightning tv or whatever they call themselves to do that

I'm sure you know the name really.

On a serious note let's hope the more legitimate peaceful protests don't get hijacked by those against this decision and become violent.

I don't, nor do I care what it is called. All I've seen of it is their PR disaster of the SS symbol

Edited November 11, 2013 by fab4

[bigbamboo]

Hilariously, on the nation article.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/ICJ-says-Thailand-did-accept-Annex-I-map-30219282.html

The nation is running a mood indicator of how you feel about knowing that Thailand might have lost 4sq km of land

How does this story make you feel?

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Where's the 'TFI all over' one?

[GentlemanJim]

It looks to me that the Thai side were simply incapable of proving to the court that Siam signed the 1904 demarcation treaty with France under duress . . . why? Probably because the 1904 Siamese did everything in their power to hide the evidence that they signed the treaty under duress - in order to save face!

I am not sure the Thais in particular the FM wanted to persuade the court of anything. Shin Clan have now fulfilled their deal to Cambodia and their Oil and Gas companies will get a large slice of greenback pie. Job done, Thaksin won't give a hoot about protests and killings, the judgement will make Shin Clan billions.

[Arkady]

Seems to me that Thailand just lost about 1sq km of the disputed 4.6sq km but that the court declined to rule on the other 3.6sq km because it was only asked to clarify its previous ruling which didn't cover that. No one seriously expected the court could reverse its previous ruling that the temple itself is in Cambodia. Unfortunately the nationalists probably don't understand that. Anyway, Thailand being ordered to retreat from the 1sq km, if that is correct, will go down very badly.

It is now up to the two governments to negotiate some fair accommodation over the remaining 3.6sq km, so that tourism and border trade can be re-opened to mutual benefit. Trips can now be arranged to the temple from Siem Reap for US$150 per car. It involves a transfer to another vehicle at the base of the escarpment to climb the hill but there is no longer any way Thailand can claim the temple is inaccessible from the Cambodian side. Getting there from Siem Reap takes nearly the same time as getting there from Ubon, Thailand's nearest airport. The only difference is that Cambodia has a lot of much better Khmer temples around Siem Reap while Thailand has nothing much to offer apart from Phanom Rung in Buriram and Phimai in Khorat.

[dao16]

4.5 kilos or whatever at the Thai-Cambodian border....have any of you guys been to the Thai-Cambodian border near this area? Yeah, I know they care about their slice of ground for a number of reasons, but once it gets opened, it will look much like the others--dusty, with unfinished "construction" everywhere, crappy little markets, a bunch of garbage and litter all over the place, some soldiers, and a bunch of sketchy people and corrupt people wandering back and forth. So, yeah! The filth of the place will belong to Cambodia! Hooray for the winners!

Note: I am not talking about the actual people who live off of trade back and forth across the border....they are the poor people who are suffering from this ridiculousness.

[wileycoyote]

Not good

[ronwparker]

Thailand should feel humiliated but they are Thais so they will say the ICJ is full of Farang getting their own back

[Ticketmaster]

Looking at the actual judgement, I don't see that the 'other' hill, Panom Trap is awarded to either Thailand OR Cambodia! Here is the wording:

The Court further considers that Phnom Trap lay outside the disputed area and that the 1962

Judgment did not address the question whether it was located in Thai or Cambodian territory.

Accordingly, the Court concludes that the promontory of Preah Vihear ends at the foot of the hill of

Phnom Trap, that is to say, where the ground begins to rise from the valley.

In the north, the limit of the promontory is the Annex I map line, from a point to the north-east of the Temple where that

line abuts the escarpment to a point in the north-west where the ground begins to rise from the valley, at the foot of the hill of Phnom Trap.

Thanks. Good somebody that actually read the opinion instead of all the posters that are just blowing smoke from their asses.