ICJ begins reading verdict of Preah Vihear dispute

[hellodolly]

Predictable. Did the Thai army and establishment really think they could act like gangsters internationally like they do domestically? Probably not, they just needed something to wind up the plebs to deflect attention from their nefarious conduct.

I don't think it was the government or the Army. I tghink it was a result of the Yellow shirts trying to hang on to a vestige of reason for their existence. They got the citizens all riled up so the Government and Army had to act. There was no real problems until they stepped in. Abhist did not want it and Yingluck does not want it but the citizens are forcing it on them.

I am not sure of the details but I believe Thaksin had a workable plan on it with Cambodia and it was fiine and then when Cambodia filed to have the temple declared a World Heritage Site the yellow shirts stepped in. There never was a doubt as to what country the temple was on. It is all about around 4 square miles of useless property in front of it.

Properly explained and discussed what the land is actually like the locals opinion on the land and the two countries working together for some sort of plan the population would not be so riled up over it.

Let us hope the Government handles this properly and try not to make Thailand look like a bigger fool than they already do over this piece of property.

[Gulfsailor]

I think the ruling is a win for Cambodia. The ruling states that; vicinity of temple belongs to Cambodia for as far it was delineated by Annex1 map, which was undisputed for many years. Since the hill to the East was not part of the initial ruling, they can't comment on it now. So basically from the 4 square km disputed area, 2 is given to Cambodia and the other 2 undecided. This 2 square km land is mainly to the East of the temple, but with a little bit to the west, between the temple and foot of the other hill. And that tiny stretch to the west is what it was all about for Cambodia, because now Cambodia can make a road there from their side up to the temple. The areas to the East and South are too steep to do that.

[ronwparker]

They have to eat humble pie again soon over the man in Dubai

[Ticketmaster]

Last time I visited this temple, I was stopped on the Thai side and asked to pay to enter a National Park, then 500 metres later I was stopped and asked to pay for entry to the temple this still being on the Thai side, and finally the Cambodians rightfully asked for some money to enter the actual temple.

I wonder did the ICJ rule on extortion entrance fees ?

Hey! I paid, too. Can I get my money back?

[Halion]

Storm in a tea cup. There was little doubt that this would be the ruling by the IJC based on past discussion and documentary evidence. Thai government has simple kept this in popular focus for nationalistic and personal gain. I suppose that in the true spirit of Thainess the baby will now spit the dummy.

[Showbags]

Is there any way that they can blame us and save face much?

[edwinchester]

This is a travesty of justice.

 

This is not the way of doing things.

When two sides can't agree it seems sensible for them to go to a court for a decision. Much better than the military of each country slugging it out with all the inevitable casualties.

[Just1Voice]

Naturally the Thai will "spin" this any way they can, but for me, the Jack Nicholson line keeps popping in my head:

(Thailand) "You can't handle the truth!"

[phitsanulokjohn]

Mai pen rai as they say in Thai.

Now it's time to have a cry

so what Khun Thai,do you think is best?

to do the usual and violently protest

no,it hasn;t been a good day

sorry you never got your own way

there endeth the twists and twirls

so stop acting like little boys and girls.

[bigbamboo]

I guess every cloud has a silver lining.

Whilst I feel sad for my Thai friends for their sad loss the good news is I can now go down to the local Thai travel agent and book to go on his new 'Cambodia.... The Hub Of World Class Temples Tour' featuring Preah Vihear and some other place called Angkor Wat.

Can't wait!

[tragickingdom]

Actually the ICJ did not rule in favour of Cambodia but kept the status quo. It is just how you look at it. The ultra nationalist Nation Newspaper way or the commons sense way.

[Gandtee]

The other paper has a completely contradictory statement in the "breaking news" section.

From the other paper, it seems that not the whole 4.6kms is Cambodian. That's the way I read it anyway.

My wife is watching this news on Thai TV and says that the land the temple is on is Cambodian but the surrounding land is Thai?? I have always thought that the Thai language lacks precision and statements have many different meanings. Perhaps because the people that make them bend them to suit themselves? We shall see

[Sheryl]

The other paper has a completely contradictory statement in the "breaking news" section.

From the other paper, it seems that not the whole 4.6kms is Cambodian. That's the way I read it anyway.

My wife is watching this news on Thai TV and says that the land the temple is on is Cambodian but the surrounding land is Thai?? I have always thought that the Thai language lacks precision and statements have many different meanings. Perhaps because the people that make them bend them to suit themselves? We shall see

Actually she is not far wrong. The promontory the temple is on is Cambodian and it borders the rest of Cambodia to the east. The level land below the promontory to the north, south and west has not been ruled on so presumably stays Thai.

I believe that some of the 4.6 km land Thailand had been claiming is on the promontory and that has been adjudicated to Cambodia, but at least half of it, maybe more, is below the promontory.

[NanLaew]

...... Shin Clan have now fulfilled their deal to Cambodia and their Oil and Gas companies will get a large slice of greenback pie. ...

What are you smoking? Cambodia's oil and gas companies?

In recoverable reserves, Cambodia is as prospective as a pensioners Friday night balloon chase on Walking Street.

It belongs to Cambodia.

It has ALWAYS belonged to Cambodia.

Get over it.

Edited November 11, 2013 by NanLaew

[phantomfiddler]

At last the air is cleared. Accept the decision and move on in an adult and constructive manner

[Sheryl]

Seems to me that Thailand just lost about 1sq km of the disputed 4.6sq km but that the court declined to rule on the other 3.6sq km because it was only asked to clarify its previous ruling which didn't cover that. No one seriously expected the court could reverse its previous ruling that the temple itself is in Cambodia. Unfortunately the nationalists probably don't understand that. Anyway, Thailand being ordered to retreat from the 1sq km, if that is correct, will go down very badly.

It is now up to the two governments to negotiate some fair accommodation over the remaining 3.6sq km, so that tourism and border trade can be re-opened to mutual benefit. Trips can now be arranged to the temple from Siem Reap for US$150 per car. It involves a transfer to another vehicle at the base of the escarpment to climb the hill but there is no longer any way Thailand can claim the temple is inaccessible from the Cambodian side. Getting there from Siem Reap takes nearly the same time as getting there from Ubon, Thailand's nearest airport. The only difference is that Cambodia has a lot of much better Khmer temples around Siem Reap while Thailand has nothing much to offer apart from Phanom Rung in Buriram and Phimai in Khorat.

Yes, this is how I read the ruling also.

But I am afraid that a negotiated accomodation won't happen anytime soon as it is too much of a political football within Thailand. Bear in mind there was a negotiated solution to start with and it was kicked out after the coup here because it had been negotiated by Taksin...and thus started the whole saga.

There is a similiar "cut off your nose to spite your face" deadlock over oil deposits that lie sunder the ocean right near the boundry between Thai and Cambodian waters. In that instance it is not known exactly how much of the oil will turn out to be in Thai waters and how much in Cambodian waters and the oil companies won't start drilling unless they are guaranteed access to all of it. A 50-50 split was agreed to, which makes total sense, but that was ditched along with the agreement for joint development of Preah Vihear.

I am no admirer of Taksin, far from it, but these 2 things were AFAIK reasonable arrangements in the country's best interests.

Meanwhile the Cambodians are fed up and busily improving access to Preah Vihear from the Cambodian side.

And nobody is getting the oil revenue.

[Asiantravel]

...... Shin Clan have now fulfilled their deal to Cambodia and their Oil and Gas companies will get a large slice of greenback pie. ...

What are you smoking? Cambodia's oil and gas companies?

In recoverable reserves, Cambodia is as prospective as a pensioners Friday night balloon chase on Walking Street.

The nation of 14 million people, sandwiched between Thailand and Vietnam, is flush with natural resources. Veins of iron and gold run beneath its soil. Natural forests offer a wealth of timber. Most promising of all are Cambodia's deposits of oil and gas, believed to snake offshore all the way through the kingdom's lush interior.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/18/cambodias-coming-oil-weal_n_176384.html

[braverrouge]

Have been following the local news on this subject for a while and understand that Thailand lost the temple to Cambodia only.

The land surrounding the area still belongs to Thailand, which was the main concern of the Thais.

I'm not sure how many Germans are among this group but if you think back when Germany was divided and becam West & East Germany you should understand how the locals in that area were feeling.

[Sing_Sling]

It looks to me that the Thai side were simply incapable of proving to the court that Siam signed the 1904 demarcation treaty with France under duress . . . why? Probably because the 1904 Siamese did everything in their power to hide the evidence that they signed the treaty under duress - in order to save face!

I am not sure the Thais in particular the FM wanted to persuade the court of anything. Shin Clan have now fulfilled their deal to Cambodia and their Oil and Gas companies will get a large slice of greenback pie. Job done, Thaksin won't give a hoot about protests and killings, the judgement will make Shin Clan billions.

Whoa, that is some serious conspiracy nonsense you are smoking

[jpinx]

The other paper has a completely contradictory statement in the "breaking news" section.

From the other paper, it seems that not the whole 4.6kms is Cambodian. That's the way I read it anyway.

My wife is watching this news on Thai TV and says that the land the temple is on is Cambodian but the surrounding land is Thai?? I have always thought that the Thai language lacks precision and statements have many different meanings. Perhaps because the people that make them bend them to suit themselves? We shall see

Actually she is not far wrong. The promontory the temple is on is Cambodian and it borders the rest of Cambodia to the east. The level land below the promontory to the north, south and west has not been ruled on so presumably stays Thai.

I believe that some of the 4.6 km land Thailand had been claiming is on the promontory and that has been adjudicated to Cambodia, but at least half of it, maybe more, is below the promontory.

Indeed -- nothing has changed so very much. It will be fairly easy to say that Thailand has won a victory of maintaining the status of several sq kms of land and is happy to have the boundary of the temple lands clarified as being only the promontory. Equally -- Cambodia can say that they won their rights to temple and it's lands. Win - Win.

Getting the local commanders on both sides to back down quietly will need a bit of fancy footwork, but not impossible as long as the hotheads and extremists are kept off the patch.

Meantime -- in the Gulf of Thailand, the papers are probably already drawn up to agree sea-bed boundaries and drilling rights

[Sunderland]

Nice of the foreign minister to speak Thai in front of the foreigners who represented Thailand and refer to them as 'farang' ... surely could have used a more polite term such as ****Thai language removed**** ... cheeky bastard!

Edited November 11, 2013 by metisdead
Thai language edited out of post. This is an English language forum, English is the only acceptable language, except in the Thai language forum where Thai language is allowed.

[Sheryl]

Oh the papers were drawn up back in Taksin's time. Then post-coup the new govt reneged on the deal. While the current govt would gladly reopen it, the political opposition is likely to make that difficult to impossible.

And I think the Cambodians have come to view the Thais as less than reliable partners due to chronic internal political instability.

[jpinx]

Oh the papers were drawn up back in Taksin's time. Then post-coup the new govt reneged on the deal. While the current govt would gladly reopen it, the political opposition is likely to make that difficult to impossible.

And I think the Cambodians have come to view the Thais as less than reliable partners due to chronic internal political instability.

Not without reason -- but a bit of pot / kettle / black comes to mind -- given Cambodia's history

[EricBerg]

...... Shin Clan have now fulfilled their deal to Cambodia and their Oil and Gas companies will get a large slice of greenback pie. ...

What are you smoking? Cambodia's oil and gas companies?

In recoverable reserves, Cambodia is as prospective as a pensioners Friday night balloon chase on Walking Street.

The nation of 14 million people, sandwiched between Thailand and Vietnam, is flush with natural resources. Veins of iron and gold run beneath its soil. Natural forests offer a wealth of timber. Most promising of all are Cambodia's deposits of oil and gas, believed to snake offshore all the way through the kingdom's lush interior.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/18/cambodias-coming-oil-weal_n_176384.html

Not forget the unexploded landmines all over the place...

[Sheryl]

Have been following the local news on this subject for a while and understand that Thailand lost the temple to Cambodia only.

The land surrounding the area still belongs to Thailand, which was the main concern of the Thais.

I'm not sure how many Germans are among this group but if you think back when Germany was divided and becam West & East Germany you should understand how the locals in that area were feeling.

Not correct. (1) The temple was not in contention at all. The court clearly rules in 1962 that it belonged to Cambodia, case closed. (2) The land around it - some has been adjucated as belonging to to Cambodia, using the natural features of the mountain promontory as the deciding factor, and the rest was not ruled on as the IJC confined themselves to an interpretation of the original 1962 ruling. (Thailand had tried to claim the ruling referred solely to the temple buildings and not to any land around it). The IJC ruled that the initial ruling extended to the entire promontory on which the temple sits but does nto cover the surrounding valleys nor an adjacent hill.

So basically neither side scored a total victory. The ruling was nuanced and, to my eyes, quite reasonable.

[Sunderland]

BBC angle appears to be a little bit different. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24897805

Preah Vihear temple: Disputed land Cambodian, court rules

The 900-year-old Preah Vihear temple is a World Heritage site

Continue reading the main story Related Stories

• Thai planes raise Cambodia tension
• Q&A: Thailand-Cambodia temple dispute
• Deal over Thai-Cambodian dispute

Cambodia should have sovereignty over disputed land around the Preah Vihear temple on the border with Thailand, the UN's highest court has ruled.

The International Court of Justice in the Hague said Thailand must withdraw any soldiers from the area.

The long-standing rift has previously led to clashes between the two nations, who both lay claim to the land.

A 1962 verdict by the court declared the temple to be Cambodian, but did not rule on the area around it.

Cambodia sought a clarification of the ruling two years ago, after fighting erupted.

Delivering the judgement, Peter Tomka, president of the International Court of Justice, said the court had decided "that Cambodia had sovereignty over the whole territory of the promontory of Preah Vihear".

"In consequence, Thailand was under an obligation to withdraw from that territory the Thai military or police forces or other guards or keepers that were stationed there," he said.

Fears of violence

Both sides agreed to withdraw troops from the disputed area in December 2011.

On Saturday, the chief of Cambodia's military forces on the Thailand border called an emergency meeting after Thai aircraft were seen flying low around disputed land near the temple.

However, Cambodian regional commander General Srey Deuk told the BBC he expected no problems with the Thai military after Monday's verdict.

He said no troop reinforcements had been brought up to the temple.

But fears remain about possible violence in border villages, stirred up by nationalist groups.

One Thai nationalist group, the Thai Patriotic Network, has said it will reject any judgement from the ICJ, according to The Nation newspaper. The group has already petitioned the court to throw out the case.

The territory has been a point of contention for over a century.

[Trembly]

My wife is watching this news on Thai TV and says that the land the temple is on is Cambodian but the surrounding land is Thai?? I have always thought that the Thai language lacks precision and statements have many different meanings. Perhaps because the people that make them bend them to suit themselves? We shall see

From the other paper, it seems that not the whole 4.6kms is Cambodian. That's the way I read it anyway.

Actually she is not far wrong. The promontory the temple is on is Cambodian and it borders the rest of Cambodia to the east. The level land below the promontory to the north, south and west has not been ruled on so presumably stays Thai.

I believe that some of the 4.6 km land Thailand had been claiming is on the promontory and that has been adjudicated to Cambodia, but at least half of it, maybe more, is below the promontory.

Indeed -- nothing has changed so very much. It will be fairly easy to say that Thailand has won a victory of maintaining the status of several sq kms of land and is happy to have the boundary of the temple lands clarified as being only the promontory. Equally -- Cambodia can say that they won their rights to temple and it's lands. Win - Win.

Getting the local commanders on both sides to back down quietly will need a bit of fancy footwork, but not impossible as long as the hotheads and extremists are kept off the patch.

Meantime -- in the Gulf of Thailand, the papers are probably already drawn up to agree sea-bed boundaries and drilling rights

Not in the least . . . that is, if the local commanders are still the same ones who have been there for the past few years.

I have it on good authority that the troops from both sides of the border who are stationed there are on pretty good terms with each other (if only via their respective liaisons), similarly the civilians. If anything they'll be having a big buttock-unclenching party tonight, methinks.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Trembly

[EricBerg]

I suppose the missunderstood fugitive and his little sis already congratulated Hun Sen with the outcome?

[jpinx]

My wife is watching this news on Thai TV and says that the land the temple is on is Cambodian but the surrounding land is Thai?? I have always thought that the Thai language lacks precision and statements have many different meanings. Perhaps because the people that make them bend them to suit themselves? We shall see

From the other paper, it seems that not the whole 4.6kms is Cambodian. That's the way I read it anyway.

Actually she is not far wrong. The promontory the temple is on is Cambodian and it borders the rest of Cambodia to the east. The level land below the promontory to the north, south and west has not been ruled on so presumably stays Thai.

I believe that some of the 4.6 km land Thailand had been claiming is on the promontory and that has been adjudicated to Cambodia, but at least half of it, maybe more, is below the promontory.

Indeed -- nothing has changed so very much. It will be fairly easy to say that Thailand has won a victory of maintaining the status of several sq kms of land and is happy to have the boundary of the temple lands clarified as being only the promontory. Equally -- Cambodia can say that they won their rights to temple and it's lands. Win - Win.

Getting the local commanders on both sides to back down quietly will need a bit of fancy footwork, but not impossible as long as the hotheads and extremists are kept off the patch.

Meantime -- in the Gulf of Thailand, the papers are probably already drawn up to agree sea-bed boundaries and drilling rights

Not in the least . . . that is, if the local commanders are still the same ones who have been there for the past few years.

I have it on good authority that the troops from both sides of the border who are stationed there are on pretty good terms with each other (if only via their respective liaisons), similarly the civilians. If anything they'll be having a big buttock-unclenching party tonight, methinks.

I sincerely hope you are right.

[hanuman2543]

At last the air is cleared. Accept the decision and move on in an adult and constructive manner

In Thailand?

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