Why does Buddhism in Thailand have such greed for money?

[socksy01]

A huge amount who donate food, cash etc to Buddhist Monk's/temples don't have a pot to piss in yet still readily give what little they have.

The first month I got here I gave my missus 10,000 grand (baht) for shopping etc (no Bills) and within a week it was gone - she said a lot of it went to the temple.

She is not a gambler.

Her explanation was that if she donates now, when she dies Buddha will look after her.

My immediate thoughts were that she had invested in a Bull and that it had shit all over the living room.

Needless to say she gets Lauren Bacall (<deleted> all) now and runs her own business.

[bankei]

Same as Christianity. A pure teaching got polluted and corrupted. Doesn't mean that Buddha or Jesus's basic teachings about the universe or flawed. I think they are no more obsessed with money in Asia than we are in the west, but the difference is they don't hide it here. Money is the god in Asia. Also the Buddha statues and little spirit houses are a layover from the animistic hindu hoodoo religion that was in SE Asia before Buddha's teachings arrived.

Hell. I could do with some more money myself. Know any good monks?

I dont think its a layover. Lod Buddah, Was born hindu, (all hindu temples) he is imaged as one of the great hindu teachers. But he walked away from Hinduism cos he saw the flaws and injustice against lower cast /racial devide. Aryan this aryan that, ..

That is the reason why he started buddism....To fix all faults that was with hinduism. By the way watch an intresting BBC documentary "Jesus was buddist" on youtube... Many things in Christiantity seams to be comming from buddism,and it can be so that jesus actualy went to India ...and learded buddism and took it to Jerusalem and started his own thing

Hinduism was a western investion - about the 18th century or so.

There is no such thing really. The Buddha wasn't a Hindu. The Buddha, legend has it, followed many different teachers, with different teachings. None of whom could be described as being hindu as you would imagine it. There were probably no hindu temples back then - or temples of any sort.

it is also a mistake to say that the Buddha was a caste reformer. He has a few digs at caste, but early Buddhism was dominated by Brahmin caste and Kshatriya caste as well. Modern Sri Lankan Buddhism is very caste conscious too and is broken up into sects based on caste

Casts in Sri Lanka not really?, The british use to give Royal kandyan names to the locals that did a good job. But its 10 times worse in india about cast . Trust me i have been in sri lanka for 10 years before i came to Thailand.

And that Lord Buddah was not hindu is ,, so wrong .....just walk into any hindu temple...even Sri Vihar you can see Lord Buddah on the thusand years old stones.

I dont know where did you get that from that Hinduism is a western invesion i think that is a very sick comment, i actually take offence against it as a Buddist.

Hinduism is the first real religion. Islam, Buddism, Christianity all grow out of it .

Your knowledge astoundss me. Hinduism is a broad term used to describe a few hundred Indian religions. Go and do some reading. Many so called Hindus now consider the Buddha a god - 9th incarnation of Vishnu maybe. But that doesn't mean the Buddha was a god does it?

[bankei]

It is unfortunate that a large percent of Thai people know little to nothing about Buddhism. A couple hours of reading about Buddhism conformed my suspicions a couple months after I arrived here.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Are you saying you know more about Buddhism than the Buddhists and that you gained this knowledge by reading a few books - in English no doubt???

Read carefully what i wrote. Don't presume you read about anything i didn't write. I said nothing about how many years i've lived here or any other matters. I didn't even say anything about "Buddhists" as you are saying. I said something about Thai people, and about Buddhism. Inherent to this topic is likely a broad and diffuse discrepancy about what makes a person a Buddhist, considering that such people who think they are Buddhist might not be informed enough about Buddhism to

comply with the core roots of Buddha 2500 years ago. Many Thai people just grow up here and follow whatever tradition, and even superstitions that somebody along the decades and centuries decided to deviate onto. Many of these people's beliefs have no designated relation to Buddhism. They just think it is because it's how they grew up. Education here is not like developed countries. And to think how dumb we are to believe certain things as we grow up in a developed nation, only to later discover by our own intelligent curiousity that much of it was bull.

Firstly how do you know what 'Buddhism' is? Assuming you can read an early Indian language such as Pali and/or classical Chinese to read the preserved scriptures - is Buddhism only what is in the scriptures? Can you read modern Thai?

What about the traditions handed down, are these not Buddhism if practiced by Buddhists and taught as Buddhism?

What are these 'deviations' you write about?

What are the befiefs that have "no designated relation to Buddhism"? If they have no relation to Buddhism how do they relate to this topic?

Bankei

[iamariva1957]

I live up here in the north west in Mae Sot. The other day I was in Tesco's and in the electrical appliance area of the store. The following is for real and I stood there and counted and watched them for a good 20 minutes. I saw 8 Monks buying 4 flat screen TV's (of 36" size), 5 Samsung tablets, smart phones, a surround sound system, a laptop and 2 Epson printers, along with a whole mess of other stuff. I am guessing that this was done before they went and did the food shopping? It struck me only because I was at a loss to figure out what they, the monks, needed with all that gear. You see monks all the time on their mobile phones yet also walking the street in the morning with their alms bowls. The hypocrisy is beyond understanding. But why is it that the Thais do not see that! Maybe we should all shave our heads and start wearing our own robes... and ask for money to pay for our next visa run or pay that bar bill, or keep hat extended Thai family in clover! I am just saying...................

[khaowong1]

Some of the conversations on this topic are interesting and some are way out there. The discussion of what a monk shoud have or not, concerning iphones etc., could go on for another hundred years and probably not still be agreed on. One thing I do agree on is that Thai Buddhism has got too commercial. I'm assuming it's a Thai concept that we foreigners will never understand. One person mentioned that the younger Thai people aren't attending the Wats. I pretty much agree with this. I don't think it has as much to do with anything more than they have other interests.. similar to Christian churches back home. It's going to take a very charsmatic Buddhist monk to turn this around, maybe another Ajahn Chah or someone similar. Until then, things will go on as they currently are.

Edited November 19, 2013 by khaowong1

[anon210]

 

 

It is unfortunate that a large percent of Thai people know little to nothing about Buddhism. A couple hours of reading about Buddhism conformed my suspicions a couple months after I arrived here.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

 

Are you saying you know more about Buddhism than the Buddhists and that you gained this knowledge by reading a few books - in English no doubt???

 

Read carefully what i wrote. Don't presume you read about anything i didn't write. I said nothing about how many years i've lived here or any other matters. I didn't even say anything about "Buddhists" as you are saying. I said something about Thai people, and about Buddhism.  Inherent to this topic is likely a broad and diffuse discrepancy about what makes a person a Buddhist, considering that such people who think they are Buddhist might not be informed enough about Buddhism to

comply with the core roots of Buddha 2500 years ago.  Many Thai people just grow up here and follow whatever tradition, and even superstitions that somebody along the decades and centuries decided to deviate onto. Many of these people's beliefs have no designated relation to Buddhism. They just think it is because it's how they grew up. Education here is not like developed countries. And to think how dumb we are to believe certain things as we grow up in a developed nation, only to later discover by  our own intelligent curiousity that much of it was bull.

 

 

Firstly how do you know what 'Buddhism' is? Assuming you can read an early Indian language such as Pali and/or classical Chinese to read the preserved scriptures - is Buddhism only what is in the scriptures? Can you read modern Thai?

 

What about the traditions handed down, are these not Buddhism if practiced by Buddhists and taught as Buddhism?

What are these 'deviations' you write about?

What are the befiefs that have "no designated relation to Buddhism"? If they have no relation to Buddhism how do they relate to this topic?

 

Bankei

I live up here in the north west in Mae Sot. The other day I was in Tesco's and in the electrical appliance area of the store. The following is for real and I stood there and counted and watched them for a good 20 minutes. I saw 8 Monks buying 4 flat screen TV's (of 36" size), 5 Samsung tablets, smart phones, a surround sound system, a laptop and 2 Epson printers, along with a whole mess of other stuff. I am guessing that this was done before they went and did the food shopping? It struck me only because I was at a loss to figure out what they, the monks, needed with all that gear. You see monks all the time on their mobile phones yet also walking the street in the morning with their alms bowls. The hypocrisy is beyond understanding. But why is it that the Thais do not see that! Maybe we should all shave our heads and start wearing our own robes... and ask for money to pay for our next visa run or pay that bar bill, or keep hat extended Thai family in clover! I am just saying...................

Well, I see monks every single day shopping at Pantip... always looking for the latest gadgets.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[ThaiFelix]

My wife just shrugs and says 'Thailand different'...basically TIS!

I worked with a guy who was a real believer in Buddhism and lived it too. He told us a couple of years ago he shaved his head, donned the saffron robes and became a monk for a few months in a wat up north. He claimed that when he left the abbot presented him with a big bag full of money being what he had received from the villagers during his time there. Whats this he asked, shouldn't it be for the poor people, the temple upkeep etc? No, they answered, its yours, you collected it!! He still has firm beliefs in Buddhism but has serious doubts about what goes on in the temples.

I often tell the wife..

"if we need money, I can just put on a saffron robe, shave my head and pass out empty envelopes to the poor people. They feel guilty if they don't stuff them with cash and return them."

I agree that Thai Buddhism is way off the mark.

The monks should be educating the people in the teachings of the Buddha.

Instead, they collect money and promote social events.

A good place to start: the education:

It is not O.K. to kill every living thing you see!

How does your wife respond to this?

[dighambara]

Thai Buddhism is not the pure form as taught by Buddha.

This should be no surprise, as Few "CHRISTIAN" religions practice as Jesus taught.

In defense - all religions add in or absorb local beliefs - they always have and always will.

[belg]

temples here are a bit like social welfare in the civilized countries... as anybody can join and ... relax

so ... backgrounds from fleeing criminals that want to evade justice to .... whatever

so the money culture is nothing more than the expression of the real thai buddism

[camerata]

Many here on this topic have asked what can be done about this, in my humble opinion it is already being done. Thais have been deserting temples in their thousands, young Thais especially just ain't having any of it. They're not falling for the crap of their politicians, and nor are they the blatant hypocrisy in the temples, it is just turning them off their religion big time. Many Thais I have spoken to do not see Thai Buddhism surviving this generation.

This is only half the story at best. While interest in Buddhism is declining among some Thais due to the increasing secularisation of society (similar to what is happening in the UK), it is increasing in others. The Wat Dhammakaya sect is a huge success, offering squeaky clean monks who keep the precepts, well-scrubbed lay followers, a feeling of togetherness at their many functions, their own 24-hour satellite channel, and a quick way to a fortunate rebirth. Despite a court case in which the sect's leader was accused of having a gazillian baht in his personal bank accounts and putting out heretical teachings, Thais are flocking to join up.

Dhammakaya is also a massive money-making machine and the many Thais who join up don't seem to mind at all. That the monks are strict about the precepts seem to be more important than the temple making oodles of money.

[camerata]

temples here are a bit like social welfare in the civilized countries... as anybody can join and ... relax

so ... backgrounds from fleeing criminals that want to evade justice to .... whatever

If a criminal ordains as a monk the police can force him to disrobe and arrest him. You may be able to lay low in the monkhood if no one is looking for you, but you can't escape justice.

[Thaddeus]

It is unfortunate that a large percent of Thai people know little to nothing about Buddhism. A couple hours of reading about Buddhism conformed my suspicions a couple months after I arrived here.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Are you saying you know more about Buddhism than the Buddhists and that you gained this knowledge by reading a few books - in English no doubt???

Read carefully what i wrote. Don't presume you read about anything i didn't write. I said nothing about how many years i've lived here or any other matters. I didn't even say anything about "Buddhists" as you are saying. I said something about Thai people, and about Buddhism. Inherent to this topic is likely a broad and diffuse discrepancy about what makes a person a Buddhist, considering that such people who think they are Buddhist might not be informed enough about Buddhism to

comply with the core roots of Buddha 2500 years ago. Many Thai people just grow up here and follow whatever tradition, and even superstitions that somebody along the decades and centuries decided to deviate onto. Many of these people's beliefs have no designated relation to Buddhism. They just think it is because it's how they grew up. Education here is not like developed countries. And to think how dumb we are to believe certain things as we grow up in a developed nation, only to later discover by our own intelligent curiousity that much of it was bull.

Firstly how do you know what 'Buddhism' is? Assuming you can read an early Indian language such as Pali and/or classical Chinese to read the preserved scriptures - is Buddhism only what is in the scriptures? Can you read modern Thai?

What about the traditions handed down, are these not Buddhism if practiced by Buddhists and taught as Buddhism?

What are these 'deviations' you write about?

What are the befiefs that have "no designated relation to Buddhism"? If they have no relation to Buddhism how do they relate to this topic?

Bankei

Oh please, I can't read Hebrew, but I have read the Bible as translated by those that could.

[camerata]

giving money to the temple is not in the least way merit worthy and that really they should not expect anything in return, it is not merit worthy if you expect favours in return'.

This is just your personal opinion. If the Buddha says in the Pali Canon that building monasteries and giving to monks brings merit, no one can argue with that. Similarly, the Buddha makes it clear in the Dana Sutta that although giving with the expectation of rewards earns less merit, it still earns merit.

[Pops]

Quote:

[Why does Buddhism in Thailand have such greed for money?]

For the same reason as Italian Roman catholicism has a greed for money.

Or any other religion for that matter.

Because it is practiced by human beings !!!

It has nothing to do with buddhism/Roman catholicism or any religion/teaching whatsoever.

It's the human beings using these teachings/religions as a tool for material gain and or better lives.

Of course the Thais go to the temple to ask for personal gain, as does the rest of the world in their temples/churches.

Do you really think this only happens here ??

It's more like, if it doesn't help it doesn't hurt either, and some take that further then others.

Is this wrong ???

It is openly encouraged by the same human beings that exploit these teachings/religions so what do common Thais know ?

Greed is not just Thai it is a world wide problem !

[Thomas33399]

It is not a matter of what this person or that person does. It is not a matter of saying whether they are a Buddhist monk, priest, business man or whatever else. Most people delude themselves from the truth.

It is not a matter of sitting here on a forum with endless deprecatory comments. This goes on forever. How can you waste so much time?

The theory behind the religions is the opposite to this.

It is a matter of what YOU do.

Live a positive life.

Share it with other people.

Try to avoid wallowing in this foolishness or get a spot on talk back radio where you can infest peoples mind in a never ending conundrum of blind hatred for bad monks and other people and physical objects of every type and kind.

Turn off your thoughts. When you come back you might have a chance to have some freshness in your mind.

[Johpa]

Just two days ago I donated, as did just about every other family in the village, money to the local wat. The money is used to care for the wat, to purchase provisions for the resident monk, and to save for expanding the wat to be able to host more monks. The fund is overseen by a committe that includes the current village headman as well as at least two former village heads. There is nothing scandalous nor improper with the funds collected nor is there anything regarding the funds that goes against the basic tenants of Bhuddism.

[camerata]

One off-topic post has been deleted, along with another that quoted from the Bangkok Post.

From the Forum Rules:

31) Bangkok Post do not allow quotes from their news articles or other material to appear on Thaivisa.com. Neither do they allow links to their publications. Posts from members containing quotes from or links to Bangkok Post publications will be deleted from the forum. Please note that this is a decision by the Bangkok Post, not by Thaivisa.com and any complaints or other issues concerning this rule should be directed to them. Quotes from and links to Phuketwan are also not allowed and will also be removed. In special cases forum Administrators or the news team may use these sources.

The gist of the article was that the king and other Thai devotees have donated 300k of gold to gild the spire of the Mahabodhi Temple in India. I don't see how that is relevant to greed, though. People in SE Asia seem to like gilding temples and images with gold as an offering. It wasn't requested by the temple, so it's generosity rather than greed.

[luckyluke]

Live a positive life.

Share it with other people.

Nice to read that His Majesty and other Thai devotees are so generous by donating 300 kg of gold to the Mahabodhi Temple in India and this without any request.

[Water Buffalo]

Wat Phra Ram 9 is a great temple. I was there the other day.

Free food. Free stuff. Free meditation sittings. Free English lessons. Free yoga classes. Free painting classes.

[techboy]

Some off-topic posts have been deleted. Let's stay on the topic of greed in Thai Buddhism.

It should not have been posted as a question anyway. This is somebody's personal rendition on the matter. The technique of giving one's statement of opinion by posting the header in question format is old hat.

[camerata]

Members are free to agree or disagree with the OP's opinion, preferably by presenting some facts. That's the whole idea of a forum.

[Suradit69]

I understand what the OP is saying; however, Thais or Buddhists don't have a monopoly on greed. I'm from the US and I have personally witnessed plenty of non Buddhists line up at the trough (greedy pig reference) and seek unjust enrichment with not an ounce of shame.

Of course you are right.

Thais or buddhist do not have the monopoly on greed.

Greed is universal.

Civilisation is just a thin layer of paint.

That gives us 2 choices.

1/ accept greed, racism, violence, religion, etc - because "it is human nature".

2/ try to contribute to a better society, from a humanist - atheist point of view.

Too bad that the proposal to start an atheist subforum was censored away by TV.

"That gives us 2 choices.

1/ accept greed, racism, violence, religion, etc - because "it is human nature".

2/ try to contribute to a better society, from a humanist - atheist point of view."

Apparently atheists have a paucity of choices if it all comes down to these two.

If you think atheism is somehow a cure for greed, racism, violence or any of the less desirable attributes found in human nature or that religion promotes these characteristics, you're not being realistic. Hitler, Stalin, Castro, the Kim family and Mao come to mind as people supposedly bent on creating their version of utopia for select segments of humanity and they did a bang up job of suppressing (though never eliminating) religion. And their tactics for imposing their version of humanism on largely unwilling populations through force and state sponsored terrorism hardly inspires hope.

And if you want to claim they weren't what atheism and humanism are all about, I can respond that drunken, materialistic monks or greedy, deviant priests aren't what Buddhism or Catholicism is about either.

[humqdpf]

Same as Christianity. A pure teaching got polluted and corrupted. Doesn't mean that Buddha or Jesus's basic teachings about the universe or flawed. I think they are no more obsessed with money in Asia than we are in the west, but the difference is they don't hide it here. Money is the god in Asia. Also the Buddha statues and little spirit houses are a layover from the animistic hindu hoodoo religion that was in SE Asia before Buddha's teachings arrived.

Hell. I could do with some more money myself. Know any good monks?

I dont think its a layover. Lod Buddah, Was born hindu, (all hindu temples) he is imaged as one of the great hindu teachers. But he walked away from Hinduism cos he saw the flaws and injustice against lower cast /racial devide. Aryan this aryan that, ..

That is the reason why he started buddism....To fix all faults that was with hinduism. By the way watch an intresting BBC documentary "Jesus was buddist" on youtube... Many things in Christiantity seams to be comming from buddism,and it can be so that jesus actualy went to India ...and learded buddism and took it to Jerusalem and started his own thing

Hinduism was a western investion - about the 18th century or so.

There is no such thing really. The Buddha wasn't a Hindu. The Buddha, legend has it, followed many different teachers, with different teachings. None of whom could be described as being hindu as you would imagine it. There were probably no hindu temples back then - or temples of any sort.

it is also a mistake to say that the Buddha was a caste reformer. He has a few digs at caste, but early Buddhism was dominated by Brahmin caste and Kshatriya caste as well. Modern Sri Lankan Buddhism is very caste conscious too and is broken up into sects based on caste

Hinduism is said to be among the world's oldest living religions. The Upanishads are believed to be some of the earliest texts and predate Christianity.

Siddharta Gautama who later became known as the Buddha was born into a Hindu family and yes they had temples back then. These are known to be facts and are accepted as such even by non-Buddhists and non-Hindus (such as myself).

If you want to make a case against such well-accepted claims, you need to reference them. Just saying that Hinduism was a Western invention would be to credit the colonialists with far too much immagination. And you are insulting the very rich tradition of Hinduism as well as the many millions of followers of that religion.

[Stokakrishna]

because all the pious buddhists here can commit all sins they want and later on give money to the monks and purify themselves... gain merrit.

lol

[bankei]

Same as Christianity. A pure teaching got polluted and corrupted. Doesn't mean that Buddha or Jesus's basic teachings about the universe or flawed. I think they are no more obsessed with money in Asia than we are in the west, but the difference is they don't hide it here. Money is the god in Asia. Also the Buddha statues and little spirit houses are a layover from the animistic hindu hoodoo religion that was in SE Asia before Buddha's teachings arrived.

Hell. I could do with some more money myself. Know any good monks?

I dont think its a layover. Lod Buddah, Was born hindu, (all hindu temples) he is imaged as one of the great hindu teachers. But he walked away from Hinduism cos he saw the flaws and injustice against lower cast /racial devide. Aryan this aryan that, ..

That is the reason why he started buddism....To fix all faults that was with hinduism. By the way watch an intresting BBC documentary "Jesus was buddist" on youtube... Many things in Christiantity seams to be comming from buddism,and it can be so that jesus actualy went to India ...and learded buddism and took it to Jerusalem and started his own thing

Hinduism was a western investion - about the 18th century or so.

There is no such thing really. The Buddha wasn't a Hindu. The Buddha, legend has it, followed many different teachers, with different teachings. None of whom could be described as being hindu as you would imagine it. There were probably no hindu temples back then - or temples of any sort.

it is also a mistake to say that the Buddha was a caste reformer. He has a few digs at caste, but early Buddhism was dominated by Brahmin caste and Kshatriya caste as well. Modern Sri Lankan Buddhism is very caste conscious too and is broken up into sects based on caste

Hinduism is said to be among the world's oldest living religions. The Upanishads are believed to be some of the earliest texts and predate Christianity.

Siddharta Gautama who later became known as the Buddha was born into a Hindu family and yes they had temples back then. These are known to be facts and are accepted as such even by non-Buddhists and non-Hindus (such as myself).

If you want to make a case against such well-accepted claims, you need to reference them. Just saying that Hinduism was a Western invention would be to credit the colonialists with far too much immagination. And you are insulting the very rich tradition of Hinduism as well as the many millions of followers of that religion.

I am not saying the Vedas do not predate the Buddha. Upanishads evolved around the time of the Buddha, but certainly there are ancient indian religions predating. But that does not mean the Buddha was born a 'Hindu' as you would imagine a Hindu

Today there is something known as 'hinduism' but this is really an umbrella name for hundreds of different Indian religions. There are many different gods, Shiva followers are different to Vaishnavism.

Hinduism has no founder as therefore there are no 'core' beliefs.

I have no interest in 'hinduism' so don't know anything about this topic, but a quick google shows:

The invention of the Hindu

Hinduism is largely a fiction, formulated in the 18th and 19th centuries out of a multiplicity of sub-continental religions, and enthusiastically endorsed by Indian modernisers. Unlike Muslims, Hindus have tended to borrow more than reject, and it has now been reconfigured as a global rival to the big three monotheisms. In the process, it has abandoned the tradition of toleration which lie in its true origins.

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00litlinks/pankajmishra/articles/txt_mishra_hinduism_2004.html

and

The English Invention of Hinduism

Myth of One Hindu Religion

By

Hadwa Dom

And

In his classic article “Constructions of Hinduism at the Nexus of History and Religion,” Robert Frykenberg (1993) notes that this category is recent and has a specific origin: “Hinduism as a single religion, which with the coming Swami Narendrath Datta Vivekananda to the First World Parliament of Religions at Chicago in 1893, was gradually recognized and then elevated by liberally minded and eclectic Western clerics into the rank of a world religion.” Frykenberg, along with many other scholars, contends that “Hinduism was constructed, invented, or imagined by British scholars and colonial administrators in the nineteenth century and did not exist, in any meaningful sense, before this date”

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/NoDefinitionofHinduism.htm

Lorenzen, David N. (2006). Who invented Hinduism: essays on religion in History. Yoda Press

So to say the Buddha was born a Hindu is a mistake.

Incidently "Buddhism" is also a western invention. There was no word used to describe the teachings of the Buddha to distinguish it from other religions untill recently. "Sasana" was the term used in Pali - "The Teachings"

[bankei]

Summary of my position:

I too have thought that 'Thais' don't practice "true" Buddhism. But you must question this belief. Westerners have different conceptions of what Buddhism is. They read English books about Buddhism that emphasis the rational and fail to mention the many superstitious things that are mentioned in the scriptures. Westerners thus have a distorted view of Buddhism.

Some Westerners also think Buddhism is just what is written in certain Pali books and anything outside of this is not true Buddhism. Some of these westerners have the tenacity to tell Buddhists - even ordained members - what is and is not Buddhism (This includes me!).

But isn't Buddhism what Buddhists actually believe and do?

[bdw]

temples here are a bit like social welfare in the civilized countries... as anybody can join and ... relax

Yes, they do have this redeeming quality.

It's the same as Christian religion at home IMHO. They are full of shit, but at least they help out the indigent along the way.

Truth be told, their whole objective of helping the poor is to pounce on the poor and convert them to Christianity or Buddhism.

I guess they have some sort of quota on the amount of people/souls they coax into heaven.

[camerata]

temples here are a bit like social welfare in the civilized countries... as anybody can join and ... relax

Yes, they do have this redeeming quality.

It's the same as Christian religion at home IMHO. They are full of shit, but at least they help out the indigent along the way.

Truth be told, their whole objective of helping the poor is to pounce on the poor and convert them to Christianity or Buddhism.

I guess they have some sort of quota on the amount of people/souls they coax into heaven.

This doesn't apply in Thailand since just about everyone is "born Buddhist" so there are few "souls" left to convert to Buddhism. Also, the tradition in Buddhism is not to proselytize.

[weary]

I live up here in the north west in Mae Sot. The other day I was in Tesco's and in the electrical appliance area of the store. The following is for real and I stood there and counted and watched them for a good 20 minutes. I saw 8 Monks buying 4 flat screen TV's (of 36" size), 5 Samsung tablets, smart phones, a surround sound system, a laptop and 2 Epson printers, along with a whole mess of other stuff. I am guessing that this was done before they went and did the food shopping? It struck me only because I was at a loss to figure out what they, the monks, needed with all that gear. You see monks all the time on their mobile phones yet also walking the street in the morning with their alms bowls. The hypocrisy is beyond understanding. But why is it that the Thais do not see that! Maybe we should all shave our heads and start wearing our own robes... and ask for money to pay for our next visa run or pay that bar bill, or keep hat extended Thai family in clover! I am just saying...................

There is the hypocrisy that you mention, without a doubt. The overwhelming majority of Thais agree it is a problem, too. Just look in the local Thai press - scandal after scandal. People really are not happy about it.

But, keep in mind that the monks in the temple are recruited straight from its surroundings. What role models and experiences do these people have before they enter the monkhood? Is it fair or even logical to expect them to transform into saints or arahants given the circumstances they come from?

The Vinaya has 227 rules. First, imagine living yourself living your entire life according to these 227 rules. Then, imagine the likelihood of the kid(s) in your class at school that came from really difficult circumstances (if there was one) and had attentional problems and low impulse control, being able to live according to this rule set. Many of these kids who become novices and later monks have that background. What is the conclusion?

Also, both Jesus and the Buddha were kind of clear about not judging others too quickly.

Meaning: the situation you describe may not be exactly what you assume it to be. Without more information, we can not know who is going to use these electronic devices. It may be like you assume, just indulgence, or it may be the case that the gadgets will be used by the monks for the purpose of teaching dharma (what's so wrong with using technology to spread the word?).

It may be the case that they have been entrusted to buy these gadgets for a foundation or charity that is helping out or schooling refugee kids (there are a lot of them around in Mae Sot, just as well as there is a lot of 'funny business' going on there, too).

Are you absolutely certain about what is what?

Questions to ponder:

How would I deal with being completely banned from using technology? Would I be able to?

How many ways are there of using these appliances - are all these ways detrimental to the pursuit of living and teaching the dhamma? Is it possible that the benefits outweigh the negatives?

The Vinaya was written when no smartphones or computers existed. How to deal with these things is not self-evident. If you think it is feasible to completely enforce a technology usage ban for monks, then consider the consequences: how many people (who always are a product of the conditioning from the society surrounding the temple) would/could become monks?

How would the social function of the temples be - the truth is that for better or for worse, the majority of novices in Thai temples come from broken homes and relatively poor families.

The majority did not become novices because they actively wanted to pursue enlightenment, they became novices because the other options they could see at the time were worse.

[rockyysdt]

I live up here in the north west in Mae Sot. The other day I was in Tesco's and in the electrical appliance area of the store. The following is for real and I stood there and counted and watched them for a good 20 minutes. I saw 8 Monks buying 4 flat screen TV's (of 36" size), 5 Samsung tablets, smart phones, a surround sound system, a laptop and 2 Epson printers, along with a whole mess of other stuff. I am guessing that this was done before they went and did the food shopping? It struck me only because I was at a loss to figure out what they, the monks, needed with all that gear. You see monks all the time on their mobile phones yet also walking the street in the morning with their alms bowls. The hypocrisy is beyond understanding. But why is it that the Thais do not see that! Maybe we should all shave our heads and start wearing our own robes... and ask for money to pay for our next visa run or pay that bar bill, or keep hat extended Thai family in clover! I am just saying...................

There is the hypocrisy that you mention, without a doubt. The overwhelming majority of Thais agree it is a problem, too. Just look in the local Thai press - scandal after scandal. People really are not happy about it.

But, keep in mind that the monks in the temple are recruited straight from its surroundings. What role models and experiences do these people have before they enter the monkhood? Is it fair or even logical to expect them to transform into saints or arahants given the circumstances they come from?

The Vinaya has 227 rules. First, imagine living yourself living your entire life according to these 227 rules. Then, imagine the likelihood of the kid(s) in your class at school that came from really difficult circumstances (if there was one) and had attentional problems and low impulse control, being able to live according to this rule set. Many of these kids who become novices and later monks have that background. What is the conclusion?

Also, both Jesus and the Buddha were kind of clear about not judging others too quickly.

Meaning: the situation you describe may not be exactly what you assume it to be. Without more information, we can not know who is going to use these electronic devices. It may be like you assume, just indulgence, or it may be the case that the gadgets will be used by the monks for the purpose of teaching dharma (what's so wrong with using technology to spread the word?).

It may be the case that they have been entrusted to buy these gadgets for a foundation or charity that is helping out or schooling refugee kids (there are a lot of them around in Mae Sot, just as well as there is a lot of 'funny business' going on there, too).

Are you absolutely certain about what is what?

Questions to ponder:

How would I deal with being completely banned from using technology? Would I be able to?

How many ways are there of using these appliances - are all these ways detrimental to the pursuit of living and teaching the dhamma? Is it possible that the benefits outweigh the negatives?

The Vinaya was written when no smartphones or computers existed. How to deal with these things is not self-evident. If you think it is feasible to completely enforce a technology usage ban for monks, then consider the consequences: how many people (who always are a product of the conditioning from the society surrounding the temple) would/could become monks?

How would the social function of the temples be - the truth is that for better or for worse, the majority of novices in Thai temples come from broken homes and relatively poor families.

The majority did not become novices because they actively wanted to pursue enlightenment, they became novices because the other options they could see at the time were worse.

One of the biggest problems with smart phones is that they are highly addictive.

Available around the clock, they can occupy the greater part of ones day pursuing all manner of things.

When attending re treats, we are asked to surrender our passport, wallet, camera, credit cards, cellphone, books, ipad, pen/paper, perfumes, garlands, radio, and so forth.

If one asks, "for what reason?", the 21st century smartphone singularly exceeds all of these put together.

It's definitely a fine line, as on the other hand, controlled access for communication, & knowledge is also important.

Edited November 24, 2013 by rockyysdt