MOUNDING DIRT AROUND TREES-GOOD OR BAD?

[mhortig]

I have gardened in America for many years and many of the Thai gardening practices make me cringe. We have about a rai of land with many trees that we had transplanted for us. The Thais insist that the dirt must be mounded around the tree trunk, especialy in the rainy season to prevent "flooding" of the trees. We are in Phitsanulok, and we do have a lot of rainfall in the rainy season but it is not "monsoon" rain and lighter that many areas. Unfortunately my wife listens to the Thais and is convinced that their techniques are correct. I have always understood that mounding was a danger to the trees, and all my researching supports this. We have been here about a year and while the trees have not died their growth appears to be less vigorous than I would expect as they are well watered and fertilized. Any comments on this practice wiould be appreciated.

[cooked]

Speaking from experience, covering the roots of some trees by just 10 cm of soil than they have been used to will kill them, I am particularly thinking of a 20 meter high beech tree that I saw 20 years ago. Doubtless some trees don't mind, but I imagine that people are confusing 'planting trees on a mound of soil' (always better in my experience) with 'heaping soil around the trunk because they were to lazy to do it right in the first place'. I have planted thousands of trees in Europe and I generally recognised immediately the symptoms of a tree that had been planted to deep: small leaves, little growth, tendency to get fungal attacks.

You see many trees planted in pots around Bangkok as they won't withstand the annual flooding, which deprives the roots of oxygen. Heaping earth up over the roots has the same effect, albeit a little less dramatic.

[ozzydom]

Piling soil up the stem induces collar rot which has the same effect as ring barking.

[KonaRain]

I'm from Hawaii Cloud Forest..wet...You guys are great.. (Knowledgeable).. Alohz

[KonaRain]

The app betrayed me...

Edited November 17, 2013 by KonaRain

[KonaRain]

I posted twice...

[Bpuumike]

I think the opposite to a mound - leave a small 'moat' around the base for fertilizer which will get watered in.

[cooked]

.. last (and only) longon I planted was on a mound with a 'moat' on top.

[Ticketmaster]

I filled around existing trees in prepartaion for building a house. But I left a big depression around eah tree to protect the roots ad left swales to drain each depression. Burying the roots too deeply deprives them of needed aeration, and as another poster mentioned, will/can rot the bark.

Thai myths abound. I have gotten to a point where I flatly reject anything a Thai tells me like this until I have independently researched it. I have had Thais insist that backing up a car or truck more than 100 meters will destroy the transmission. I have had Thais insist that running a vehicle's air conditioner with the window open will destroy the air conditioner. There are thousands of these myths.

One of my favorites is that if you wai a person younger than you before the younger person wai's you, it will shorten their life. Sometimes I tell a younger Thai (that I know well), "I am going to kill you." then do a quick draw wai and laugh. They are normally not amused with my antics.

[xen]

Some plants can handle the soil level around them being changed - either raised or lowered and some will find detrimental to their survival. It also depends on the material (from clay to sand being the extremes) being used to raise the soil level as this affects as it has been mentioned drainage and aeration levels. Also mulches around the stem can give fungal and other problems ,like Aussiedom mentioned, such as collar rot .

It is now accepted any mulch deeper than 100 mm is not good for various reasons such as nitrogen drawdown. Also where the soil or mulch level is raised, new roots that develop will be left high &dry once the mulch decomposes or the soil is eroded.

Incidentally there is a new and quite controversial method of planting being developed in Australia at the moment called Long Stem Planting where seedlings are planted deeper than before with exceptional results but it does go against conventional thinking. Here is a link to an article explaining the concept http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/grants/Longstemguide.pdf.

Edited November 18, 2013 by xen

[cooked]

I didn't read all of the report but obviously young saplings that are still capable of rooting from the stem will be less liable to root rot than older examples (same as I generally plant flower and vegetable seedlings to a depth that just leaves the cotyledon leaves above the surface). Also I see mention of sand dune stabilisation, this again is a lighter soil than you will typically meet up with in Thailand.

Interesting development though.

[cooked]

sorry, double posting

Edited November 18, 2013 by cooked

[namdocmai]

If you dig a hole to plant your tree in then you should fill it back with the original soil. If you fill it back with compost then the hole will fill with rainwater and the roots might start rotting.

Plant the tree on top of the soil and put more soil around the roots (make a mound of dirt) and put mulch on top of that. The tree will send it roots into the soil.

I also read about long stem planting but that works the best for tree's that can easy make new roots out of the stem. Not all tree's can do that. The risk is collar rot on the stem.

[xen]

I didn't read all of the report but obviously young saplings that are still capable of rooting from the stem will be less liable to root rot than older examples (same as I generally plant flower and vegetable seedlings to a depth that just leaves the cotyledon leaves above the surface). Also I see mention of sand dune stabilisation, this again is a lighter soil than you will typically meet up with in Thailand.

Interesting development though.

It seems the long stem planting is now taking off - in forestry as well as reclaimation projects etc. If we can get more trees in the ground and they survive then everybody benifits.

[Ticketmaster]

Some plants can handle the soil level around them being changed - either raised or lowered and some will find detrimental to their survival. It also depends on the material (from clay to sand being the extremes) being used to raise the soil level as this affects as it has been mentioned drainage and aeration levels. Also mulches around the stem can give fungal and other problems ,like Aussiedom mentioned, such as collar rot .

It is now accepted any mulch deeper than 100 mm is not good for various reasons such as nitrogen drawdown. Also where the soil or mulch level is raised, new roots that develop will be left high &dry once the mulch decomposes or the soil is eroded.

Incidentally there is a new and quite controversial method of planting being developed in Australia at the moment called Long Stem Planting where seedlings are planted deeper than before with exceptional results but it does go against conventional thinking. Here is a link to an article explaining the concept http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/grants/Longstemguide.pdf.

Thanks for that article! A fascinating challenge to orthodoxy. I will give the method a try.

[cooked]

If you dig a hole to plant your tree in then you should fill it back with the original soil. If you fill it back with compost then the hole will fill with rainwater and the roots might start rotting.

Plant the tree on top of the soil and put more soil around the roots (make a mound of dirt) and put mulch on top of that. The tree will send it roots into the soil.

I also read about long stem planting but that works the best for tree's that can easy make new roots out of the stem. Not all tree's can do that. The risk is collar rot on the stem.

I think you are getting to the 'root' of the reason why some people seem to think that heaping up soil over the roots may be beneficial. I do as you say when planting on flat land, if possible. However with the high water table most of us have to cope with, any means of raising the roots out of the general level of the surrounding land has to be better. Many Pappaya trees around here fell over, rotten or just died during recent rains. Ours didn't (yet!).

No harm in putting some compost or manure at the bottom of the mound, not contacting the roots (causing 'burn') and letting, forcing the roots to grow downwards towards this source of nourishment. I always consider mulching as a secondary source of nourishment, but very useful for retaining moisture and keeping weeds down.

[Showbags]

Unfortunately several very large trees in our area have been killed in this way, knobs filling up land and covering the base of trees in anything from several inches to a metre of dirt.

Trees I am talking about that are near a hundred years old if not more, massive big trees growing here long before the people in the area.

Such neglect and simple ignorance is unforgivable and shameful on people that can destroy such things without a care in the world...except for themselves.

[xen]

I agree with you Showbags about how Trees are treated but i have also seen a lot of people in the landscaping industry doing terrible things like cutting tree roots with axes and machetes or even tearing them out with a excavator buckets then wondering why the tree's health diminishes . Also compaction around a tree is also very harmful but people will also park their cars , and use the space under the canopy for the shade so the soil will eventually become like concrete.

There are many ways to handicap a tree and you see it not only in Thailand .

[Suradit69]

I filled around existing trees in prepartaion for building a house. But I left a big depression around eah tree to protect the roots ad left swales to drain each depression. Burying the roots too deeply deprives them of needed aeration, and as another poster mentioned, will/can rot the bark.

Thai myths abound. I have gotten to a point where I flatly reject anything a Thai tells me like this until I have independently researched it. I have had Thais insist that backing up a car or truck more than 100 meters will destroy the transmission. I have had Thais insist that running a vehicle's air conditioner with the window open will destroy the air conditioner. There are thousands of these myths.

One of my favorites is that if you wai a person younger than you before the younger person wai's you, it will shorten their life. Sometimes I tell a younger Thai (that I know well), "I am going to kill you." then do a quick draw wai and laugh. They are normally not amused with my antics.

"They are normally not amused with my antics."

Is anyone other than you amused?

" There are thousands of these myths."

Including the one about "the white man's burden" that rests on the assumption that farangs know everything. If you want to get a real indication of farang "intelligence" and their belief in their own superiority, check out Thai Visa every April Fool's Day. Every year TV posts some totally unbelievable story about Thailand ... like the one about Thailand shifting to driving on the right side of the road in stages ... and pages and pages of huffing and puffing farangs flood Thai Visa with their ridicule of Thais for implementing such a (nonexistent) plan. Each farang making even a bigger fool of himself than the one before him. And it doesn't matter how many times this happens, there's never a shortage of gullible farang trying to put down Thais while making monkeys of themselves instead, year after year after year.

And of course there's the continuing saga of ..." but she told me that she loved me and if I bought her a house and car and business we'd be together forever ..." That primary school drop-out from Isaan out-smarted me, sob, weep."

Quite often if the locals do something, there's a reason for it even if it isn't immediately obvious to the newly arrived farang who had a garden in the US and who is flamboyantly "cringing" in distaste. When the locals were doing new landscaping at Jomtien or on Khao Pratamnak or on Pattaya Beach there were loads of farang who "knew" it was being done all wrong. And yet ...

Edited November 18, 2013 by Suradit69

[flyingdoc]

Surely it must depend to some extent on the type of underlying soil? If it is clay or similar, then watering in on level ground, must result in potential waterlogging?

[namdocmai]

I planted my own tree's before i learned about the mound-trick. They were planted in holes with compost and more clay (i have heavy clay soil) and they do fine. Even they survived the floodings for 3 weeks (mango and pomelo). To improve the clay i use agriculture gypsum and loads of mulch/compost. The mango's have huge flowers now.

[Ulic]

In general trees don't take well to grading. Part of the problem of cause and effect with trees is an established

tree can take 20 years to slowly die. While it may appear healthy for some time and continue to grow the damage

has been done. An arbourist may tell you to cut the tree down now, start over because it is better and easier

to deal with a small tree now than in 20 years when it will be difficult and more costly. They are looking at several

hundred years fro a tree not 20. Lawn mowers and whipper snippers can do a great deal of long term damage.

When planting trees research what is appropriate for the area, soil, water, latitude, elevation etc

[ausmarty]

Some plants can handle the soil level around them being changed - either raised or lowered and some will find detrimental to their survival. It also depends on the material (from clay to sand being the extremes) being used to raise the soil level as this affects as it has been mentioned drainage and aeration levels. Also mulches around the stem can give fungal and other problems ,like Aussiedom mentioned, such as collar rot .

It is now accepted any mulch deeper than 100 mm is not good for various reasons such as nitrogen drawdown. Also where the soil or mulch level is raised, new roots that develop will be left high &dry once the mulch decomposes or the soil is eroded.

Incidentally there is a new and quite controversial method of planting being developed in Australia at the moment called Long Stem Planting where seedlings are planted deeper than before with exceptional results but it does go against conventional thinking. Here is a link to an article explaining the concept http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/grants/Longstemguide.pdf.

thank you, very informative article

[dighambara]

Tropical farming practices vs Temperate farming.

Many times I have said - 'mistreatin a plant will cause it to die' only to see a month later a strong healthy plant.

In the states, farms must be watched over and seedling cared for - primarily because of poor soil or lack of water - here that doesn't exist.

This is a country where a fellow can hack together a bamboo shed and relax - fruit and vegetables being readily available popping out of the ground. Work is to have money for extras, not survival..

In the states, bad weather forces building a strong home - lack of water requires serious irrigation. Add in long slow growing season and the need to store for the winter.

[loong]

Tropical farming practices vs Temperate farming.

Many times I have said - 'mistreatin a plant will cause it to die' only to see a month later a strong healthy plant.

In the states, farms must be watched over and seedling cared for - primarily because of poor soil or lack of water - here that doesn't exist.

This is a country where a fellow can hack together a bamboo shed and relax - fruit and vegetables being readily available popping out of the ground. Work is to have money for extras, not survival..

In the states, bad weather forces building a strong home - lack of water requires serious irrigation. Add in long slow growing season and the need to store for the winter.

Do you really think that poor soil and lack of water does not exist in Thailand?

A lot of the soil in Thailand is very poor and as for rain it can be way too much water or way too little for months on end.

If fruit and vegetables readily "pop" out of the ground, why is so much imported from China?

[ThaiFelix]

My wife's gardening practices always used to make me cringe too as it contradicted most of what I had learnt at home. However after a while I learnt to shut my mouth because I soon noticed that what she did worked. As dighambara stated 'tropical farming practices vs temperate farming'.

[Showbags]

The tropics and anything does tend to grow....but as mentioned before in a post, will the roots be strong and fine in 20 years time or is it slowly dying?

We planted several large trees and they all took off, particularly 2 of the large 'raintree' type...they were huge and majestic in 2 years, strong and healthy from what you could see anyway.

When the tree planters did the job, they used mostly the gum tree poles to secure it, but on one tree they obviously used one pole that was cut from a 'flame tree' and it was simply a stick. It sprouted and grew, now it is a very large flame tree...from a stick that was not meant to be.

[mhortig]

THANKS TO ALL FOR YOUR COMMENTS. GOOD FOOD FOR THOUGHT.....

[Kirbicus]

Being involved as a landscape Gardener for some years back in Oz I was shocked to see the city gardeners in CM going around trimming hedges with a wipper snipper and a metal blade

<deleted> I thought

No secateurs or sheers were to be seen anywhere

Such a rough job of it as well

Kirbicus

[xen]

Being involved as a landscape Gardener for some years back in Oz I was shocked to see the city gardeners in CM going around trimming hedges with a wipper snipper and a metal blade

<deleted> I thought

No secateurs or sheers were to be seen anywhere

Such a rough job of it as well

Kirbicus

Agreed about the hedges but what happens to trees is even worse. The attitude is trees have no value of any form so it is okay to hack into them and cause damage that they will never ever really recover from. Sure they may re-sprout but it is only epicormic growth .