Police fear violence today

[barrybankruad]

Here in the N.E(Red stronghold) . we are in the middle of the rice harvest, everyone is busy with the single crop that we get in this part of the world. Harvesting is to the average peasant much more important that attending rallies in Bangkok. This will however change in a couple of weeks when the harvest is complete and all those now tied up in the fields have time on their hands. The situation could change dramatically with many more red shirts available for marches and demonstrations.

[ratcatcher]

Here in the N.E(Red stronghold) . we are in the middle of the rice harvest, everyone is busy with the single crop that we get in this part of the world. Harvesting is to the average peasant much more important that attending rallies in Bangkok. This will however change in a couple of weeks when the harvest is complete and all those now tied up in the fields have time on their hands. The situation could change dramatically with many more red shirts available for marches and demonstrations.

Let's hope the rice farmers get paid for their single crop otherwise they may be down here with Suthep's rally.

Anyway while the women are doing the rice, why don't their men come down instead of gambling and drinking lao khao?

[barrybankruad]

I don't know about your part of the world but here everybody (just about) men women and children (on weekends) are involved in the harvest.

[myan]

The beginning of the end.

A valid prophecy.

[Thait Spot]

Big protest outside Thaksin's house in London

[animatic]

allow the red anti democratic faction to do as they like and run Thailand into the ground for the sake of a fugitive criminal. Sorry but I just can't agree with that.

In any case it is a democratically elected government in power period.

If we use your argument as grounds to overthrow a government then President Obama would be out

already

Yet the citizens of the US know you do not pick & choose by the moment but by the term of office.

You elect a government & for better or worse within the laws you are

stuck with them till the next election. That is how it works.

If at that next election the majority of Thailand's voting citizens decide they want change it is they that decide

& properly vote the current group out. If not it will never end & Thailand will never have any stability nor credibility

in this world.

Except this is not the american Republic type government, this is as Parliamentary government,

and those DO fall all around the world, when they mismanage conditions such that

no-confidence is voted in or they just resign to calm things down.

Dissolving the parliament is a typical thing if things are obviously going wrong outside it's narrow confines.

It's not just Thailand that has it's governments fail mid term.

[GrantSmith]

Big protest outside Thaksin's house in London

Big protest outside Thaksin's house in London

Make sure you keep them off the manicured lawn, Jeeves

.

The view from outside...

https://twitter.com/ThaksinsLife/status/404832487789953024/photo/1

Also appears that Nick Nostitz has been assaulted earlier this afternoon, seen filing a Police report...

https://twitter.com/photo_journ/media

A number of expats on the twitter cautioning against farang tourists loitering around the protest areas...

"@RichardBarrow Situation in #Bangkok has deteriorated today. Tourists need to exercise extreme caution if they find themselves near a group of protesters."

"@RichardBarrow If you are planning on coming to #Bangkok with children, you might want to reconsider. We just don't know what will happen next. Try Phuket."

Edited November 25, 2013 by GrantSmith

[GrantSmith]

This just in as well...

"@lin_nt Government Officers being evacuated from Government House..."

https://twitter.com/Biz_TheNation

[Arkady]

Big protest outside Thaksin's house in London

Big protest outside Thaksin's house in London

Make sure you keep them off the manicured lawn, Jeeves

.

The view from outside...

https://twitter.com/ThaksinsLife/status/404832487789953024/photo/1

Also appears that Nick Nostitz has been assaulted earlier this afternoon, seen filing a Police report...

https://twitter.com/photo_journ/media

A number of expats on the twitter cautioning against farang tourists loitering around the protest areas...

"@RichardBarrow Situation in #Bangkok has deteriorated today. Tourists need to exercise extreme caution if they find themselves near a group of protesters."

"@RichardBarrow If you are planning on coming to #Bangkok with children, you might want to reconsider. We just don't know what will happen next. Try Phuket."

Nick Nostitz is quite a good photojournalist but he is definitely a dyed-in-the-wool red shirt. He reported on New Mandala that the yellow shirt protestors at Parliament in 2008 deserved to be shot with explosive tear gas grenades because they failed to observe police instructions to disperse and produced somewhat one-sided accounts of the red shirt storming of the APEC conference in Pattaya, the attack on PM Abhisit's car and the red shirt riots in 2009 and 2010. It seems that Dem MP Chumpon pointed him out from the stage and the crowd had a go at him - not a very nice thing to do but Nick must have known the risks he was running by being there as a known red shirt sympathiser. He reported an attack on TV news cars by red shirts in 2009 as if the TV crews deserved it for being biased against the red shirts. Now the screw has turned the other way.

BTW the pic is Thaksin in his Dubai mansion, not it London.

[GrantSmith]

Yes, there are a couple of farang red shirt sympathisers out there, Nostitz (ironic, given his background, perhaps it's his own personal rebellion?), Head and MacGregor Marshall (god help him, should he ever return here! Surprised the ICT hasn't blocked his website either) are quite noticeable

Not too sure what Nostitz was trying to prove by being out there, but in the photos I've seen he wasn't leaking any claret and can't see any evidence of injury.

[Showbags]

Big protest outside Thaksin's house in London

Big protest outside Thaksin's house in London

Make sure you keep them off the manicured lawn, Jeeves

.

Look at that ....all that money cannot buy you style.

Stainless steel hand rails are more at home in shopping malls.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Showbags

[meechai]

Except this is not the american Republic type government, this is as Parliamentary government,

and those DO fall all around the world, when they mismanage conditions such that

no-confidence is voted in or they just resign to calm things down.

Dissolving the parliament is a typical thing if things are obviously going wrong outside it's narrow confines.

It's not just Thailand that has it's governments fail mid term.

Thank you & yes I was using a democratically elected govt as an example.

I am not informed about parliamentary govt.

But at the same time even if

"Dissolving the parliament is a typical thing"

as you say. I doubt it is dissolved in the two angry mob fashion that is being attempted now or the last time.

If so perhaps they should consider a new type?

Anyway I just hope it all works itself out peacefully for Thailand's sake.

We know a few Thai business folks in Bangkok & they are so upset about what disruption & uncertainty this is

causing there.

[myan]

Big protest outside Thaksin's house in London

Make sure you keep them off the manicured lawn, Jeeves

Look at that ....all that money cannot buy you style.

Stainless steel hand rails are more at home in shopping malls.

He got them cheap at a CentralWorld shopping mall fire sale.

[Arkady]

Yes, there are a couple of farang red shirt sympathisers out there, Nostitz (ironic, given his background, perhaps it's his own personal rebellion?), Head and MacGregor Marshall (god help him, should he ever return here! Surprised the ICT hasn't blocked his website either) are quite noticeable

Not too sure what Nostitz was trying to prove by being out there, but in the photos I've seen he wasn't leaking any claret and can't see any evidence of injury.

One of Nick's friends said he is drawn to the red shirt cause because he has an Isaan wife which doesn't seem a particularly good reason.

MacGregor Marshall seems to be more of a pure anti-monarchist than mainstream red shirt these days. His viewpoint finds sympathy with a small percentage of intellectuals and old style Maoists in the red shirt camp. Most of those are reviewing their affiliations with the red shirts after the Amnesy Bill due its failure to release LM prisoners, while exhonerating corrupt capitalists and those deemed responsible for the red shirt deaths in 2010. However, without the support of the red shirts they have no voice. Even trade unionists have no hope of sponsorship from the red shirts or PT which shows how far to the right both are in reality. And yes, Marshall MacGregor must hope he is never on a plane that is diverted to Thailand due to bad weather.

[GrantSmith]

 

One of Nick's friends said he is drawn to the red shirt cause because he has an Isaan wife which doesn't seem a particularly good reason.

Happy wife happy life and all that?

MacGregor Marshall seems to be more of a pure anti-monarchist than mainstream red shirt these days.  His viewpoint finds sympathy with a small percentage of intellectuals and old style Maoists in the red shirt camp.  Most of those are reviewing their affiliations with the red shirts after the Amnesy Bill due its failure to release LM prisoners, while exhonerating corrupt capitalists and those deemed responsible for the red shirt deaths in 2010.  However, without the support of the red shirts they have no voice. Even trade unionists have no hope of sponsorship from the red shirts or PT which shows how far to the right both are in reality.  And yes, Marshall MacGregor must hope he is never on a plane that is diverted to Thailand due to bad weather. 

Agree with your comments, watched him launch into a thairade yesterday on twitter with another prominent farang netizen over the current situation.

Surely he's the poster child for Section 112's existence...

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Emptyset]

Nick Nostitz is quite a good photojournalist but he is definitely a dyed-in-the-wool red shirt. He reported on New Mandala that the yellow shirt protestors at Parliament in 2008 deserved to be shot with explosive tear gas grenades because they failed to observe police instructions to disperse and produced somewhat one-sided accounts of the red shirt storming of the APEC conference in Pattaya, the attack on PM Abhisit's car and the red shirt riots in 2009 and 2010. It seems that Dem MP Chumpon pointed him out from the stage and the crowd had a go at him - not a very nice thing to do but Nick must have known the risks he was running by being there as a known red shirt sympathiser. He reported an attack on TV news cars by red shirts in 2009 as if the TV crews deserved it for being biased against the red shirts. Now the screw has turned the other way.

BTW the pic is Thaksin in his Dubai mansion, not it London.

I think you've misrepresented Nick somewhat by claiming he said the yellow shirts deserved it and that the TV crews deserved to be attacked. I've looked for the relevant pieces, and what he actually says is more nuanced than that*:

On the tear gas:

'In this showdown PAD has used lethal force and if the police did not use teargas then this situation would have degenerated to hand-to-hand combat. And that, I am sure, would have cost many people their lives, on both sides. PAD had a few handguns, one or two police officers have been stabbed by flag poles. So, one would not like to imagine what would have happened if there was not the distance between the sides created by the teargas grenades. I doubt that any police officer intended to maim anybody but this day was a day of very few choices.'

On the media:

'We then went behind Metropolitan Police headquarters. There was a small crowd of extremely angry Red Shirts. They attacked every vehicle of the Thai media, angry by the not exactly unbiased reporting. Unfortunately, what many of them do not understand, is that Thai journalists are as divided over the political situation as the general Thai population, and many Thai journalists do not agree with the PAD or government policy. The result of these attacks was that most Thai journalists did not dare anymore to go close to the Red Shirts, and remained with the Army, even as Red Shirt leaders asked the protesters not to attack them. Part of the problem of course is that also many speeches on the stage condemned Thai media for being too partial towards the PAD. This is not too untrue, but unfortunately it results in attacks against the media. Right now only foreign journalists can safely work with Red Shirts. This is a huge problem for the future.'

Incidentally, I was acquainted with someone (who unfortunately died last year) who was a good friend of Nick's but took more or less the opposite position to him politically (similar to the position of most TV posters I'd guess). He said that whilst Nick was definitely biased in his political views, he'd never lie or deliberately mislead people as to what had actually happened in order to support his political position. I think the fact that Nick admits he's more sympathetic to the red shirts than the other side may actually allow him to check his own reports for bias, lest that get in the way of accuracy. It's people that think they're being neutral and objective when they're actually very biased that I worry about.

*I'd agree he was too lenient on the police here though. I don't think there was any excuse for using the explosive tear gas. But Nick's POV is that they didn't use it deliberately.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Emptyset

[Emptyset]

Yes, there are a couple of farang red shirt sympathisers out there, Nostitz (ironic, given his background, perhaps it's his own personal rebellion?), Head and MacGregor Marshall (god help him, should he ever return here! Surprised the ICT hasn't blocked his website either) are quite noticeable

Not too sure what Nostitz was trying to prove by being out there, but in the photos I've seen he wasn't leaking any claret and can't see any evidence of injury.

Why would he be 'trying to prove' anything rather than just covering the protests as he always does? Anyway, just spoken to a Thai friend that's in touch with him, apparently he's basically OK. Sounds like he took a few blows to the face, but nothing too heavy. It's a shame that this will keep him from covering the protests though. I always look forward to reading his reports.

Also, what do you mean by 'red sympathiser'? Because it could be someone like Nick who, in the past, has defended Thaksin and TRT quite strongly and has avowed sympathies, or it could be anyone who isn't a Democrat supporter and who doesn't necessarily think Thaksin is the root of all evil in Thailand. If you go by the latter definition, then practically every prominent academic involved in Thai Studies would classed as a 'red sympathiser'. Marshall certainly leans more towards red than yellow but he's never pulled any punches when it comes to Thaksin and he's often criticized the UDD leadership. Yet he still has something like 20,000 followers on Facebook, the vast majority of which are Thai. They seem to be more the middle-class academic types, most of whom, I'm sure, don't put on red shirts and attend UDD rallies.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Emptyset

[Arkady]

Nick Nostitz is quite a good photojournalist but he is definitely a dyed-in-the-wool red shirt. He reported on New Mandala that the yellow shirt protestors at Parliament in 2008 deserved to be shot with explosive tear gas grenades because they failed to observe police instructions to disperse and produced somewhat one-sided accounts of the red shirt storming of the APEC conference in Pattaya, the attack on PM Abhisit's car and the red shirt riots in 2009 and 2010. It seems that Dem MP Chumpon pointed him out from the stage and the crowd had a go at him - not a very nice thing to do but Nick must have known the risks he was running by being there as a known red shirt sympathiser. He reported an attack on TV news cars by red shirts in 2009 as if the TV crews deserved it for being biased against the red shirts. Now the screw has turned the other way.

BTW the pic is Thaksin in his Dubai mansion, not it London.

I think you've misrepresented Nick somewhat by claiming he said the yellow shirts deserved it and that the TV crews deserved to be attacked. I've looked for the relevant pieces, and what he actually says is more nuanced than that*:

On the tear gas:

'In this showdown PAD has used lethal force and if the police did not use teargas then this situation would have degenerated to hand-to-hand combat. And that, I am sure, would have cost many people their lives, on both sides. PAD had a few handguns, one or two police officers have been stabbed by flag poles. So, one would not like to imagine what would have happened if there was not the distance between the sides created by the teargas grenades. I doubt that any police officer intended to maim anybody but this day was a day of very few choices.'

On the media:

'We then went behind Metropolitan Police headquarters. There was a small crowd of extremely angry Red Shirts. They attacked every vehicle of the Thai media, angry by the not exactly unbiased reporting. Unfortunately, what many of them do not understand, is that Thai journalists are as divided over the political situation as the general Thai population, and many Thai journalists do not agree with the PAD or government policy. The result of these attacks was that most Thai journalists did not dare anymore to go close to the Red Shirts, and remained with the Army, even as Red Shirt leaders asked the protesters not to attack them. Part of the problem of course is that also many speeches on the stage condemned Thai media for being too partial towards the PAD. This is not too untrue, but unfortunately it results in attacks against the media. Right now only foreign journalists can safely work with Red Shirts. This is a huge problem for the future.'

Incidentally, I was acquainted with someone (who unfortunately died last year) who was a good friend of Nick's but took more or less the opposite position to him politically (similar to the position of most TV posters I'd guess). He said that whilst Nick was definitely biased in his political views, he'd never lie or deliberately mislead people as to what had actually happened in order to support his political position. I think the fact that Nick admits he's more sympathetic to the red shirts than the other side may actually allow him to check his own reports for bias, lest that get in the way of accuracy. It's people that think they're being neutral and objective when they're actually very biased that I worry about.

*I'd agree he was too lenient on the police here though. I don't think there was any excuse for using the explosive tear gas. But Nick's POV is that they didn't use it deliberately.

Since he understood why the red shirts attacked the Thai media for their biased reporting after being whipped up by crazies on the stage, he must understand why he was attacked for what they felt was his biased reporting by people who were whipped by another crazy on the stage. Personally I don't condone any violence towards the media or anyone else but emotions run high in situations like this and he put himself in harm's way in the knowledge that he was likely to be recognised.

Other accounts of the 2008 teargassing in front of Parliament took a very different view from Nick's. In the unlikely event that the police genuinely didn't know their Chinese tear gas rounds were explosive before they opened fire with them, they found out very fast but persisted in firing them directly at the protesters for about an hour. Even if they had not been explosive rounds, it is not standard riot control procedure to fire tear gas canisters directly at protestors. The idea is to gas them not knock them down or disable them with the canisters. Nick said they had ample warning from police loud speaker trucks and could have retreated to have avoid being shot with the explosive rounds. I think the same applied to the red shirts who were ordered to disperse before being shot by the army in 2010 but received a far more sympathetic treatment from Nick.

[Emptyset]

I think you've misrepresented Nick somewhat by claiming he said the yellow shirts deserved it and that the TV crews deserved to be attacked. I've looked for the relevant pieces, and what he actually says is more nuanced than that*:

On the tear gas:

'In this showdown PAD has used lethal force and if the police did not use teargas then this situation would have degenerated to hand-to-hand combat. And that, I am sure, would have cost many people their lives, on both sides. PAD had a few handguns, one or two police officers have been stabbed by flag poles. So, one would not like to imagine what would have happened if there was not the distance between the sides created by the teargas grenades. I doubt that any police officer intended to maim anybody but this day was a day of very few choices.'

On the media:

'We then went behind Metropolitan Police headquarters. There was a small crowd of extremely angry Red Shirts. They attacked every vehicle of the Thai media, angry by the not exactly unbiased reporting. Unfortunately, what many of them do not understand, is that Thai journalists are as divided over the political situation as the general Thai population, and many Thai journalists do not agree with the PAD or government policy. The result of these attacks was that most Thai journalists did not dare anymore to go close to the Red Shirts, and remained with the Army, even as Red Shirt leaders asked the protesters not to attack them. Part of the problem of course is that also many speeches on the stage condemned Thai media for being too partial towards the PAD. This is not too untrue, but unfortunately it results in attacks against the media. Right now only foreign journalists can safely work with Red Shirts. This is a huge problem for the future.'

Incidentally, I was acquainted with someone (who unfortunately died last year) who was a good friend of Nick's but took more or less the opposite position to him politically (similar to the position of most TV posters I'd guess). He said that whilst Nick was definitely biased in his political views, he'd never lie or deliberately mislead people as to what had actually happened in order to support his political position. I think the fact that Nick admits he's more sympathetic to the red shirts than the other side may actually allow him to check his own reports for bias, lest that get in the way of accuracy. It's people that think they're being neutral and objective when they're actually very biased that I worry about.

*I'd agree he was too lenient on the police here though. I don't think there was any excuse for using the explosive tear gas. But Nick's POV is that they didn't use it deliberately.

Since he understood why the red shirts attacked the Thai media for their biased reporting after being whipped up by crazies on the stage, he must understand why he was attacked for what they felt was his biased reporting by people who were whipped by another crazy on the stage. Personally I don't condone any violence towards the media or anyone else but emotions run high in situations like this and he put himself in harm's way in the knowledge that he was likely to be recognised.

Other accounts of the 2008 teargassing in front of Parliament took a very different view from Nick's. In the unlikely event that the police genuinely didn't know their Chinese tear gas rounds were explosive before they opened fire with them, they found out very fast but persisted in firing them directly at the protesters for about an hour. Even if they had not been explosive rounds, it is not standard riot control procedure to fire tear gas canisters directly at protestors. The idea is to gas them not knock them down or disable them with the canisters. Nick said they had ample warning from police loud speaker trucks and could have retreated to have avoid being shot with the explosive rounds. I think the same applied to the red shirts who were ordered to disperse before being shot by the army in 2010 but received a far more sympathetic treatment from Nick.

Fair enough. I think the difference between Nick's case and the red shirt case is that no journalist was singled out by the red shirt leaders on stage (to my knowledge anyway). But yes, violence should obviously be condemned in both cases. I think there's something to what you say about the tear gas. This probably isn't the place to go into that again, but reading Nick's report again, he does seem overly sympathetic to the police. On the other hand, he was one of the few journalists to report PAD had used potentially lethal violence in return (including at least one hand gun). That side of things shouldn't be left out of the story, obviously, and I think a lot of the anger towards Nick stems from his reporting of that; despite the fact that even the creator of a PAD sympathetic website did eventually agree with Nick that the PAD had used violence.

[MJP]

Big protest outside Thaksin's house in London

Big protest outside Thaksin's house in London

Make sure you keep them off the manicured lawn, Jeeves

.

Look at that ....all that money cannot buy you style.

Stainless steel hand rails are more at home in shopping malls.

You beat me to it. Money does not necessarily buy taste.

[GrantSmith]

Why would he be 'trying to prove' anything rather than just covering the protests as he always does? Anyway, just spoken to a Thai friend that's in touch with him, apparently he's basically OK. Sounds like he took a few blows to the face, but nothing too heavy. It's a shame that this will keep him from covering the protests though. I always look forward to reading his reports.

Trying to prove himself to be a journalist who can report both sides of the story, no agenda, just pure journalistic nuance...

He's not a man who lacks intelligence, that is not up for discussion, his judgement however, was sorely lacking. He knew he would be a target had he been noticed in the crowd, he assumed being a "foreign" journalist that this would have been enough to persuade those into allowing him to report "factually". It clearly worked, initially, given that he made it there. What happened to him - on face value - is not in the spirit of the game. Ulterior motives and whatnot...

Also, what do you mean by 'red sympathiser'? Because it could be someone like Nick who, in the past, has defended Thaksin and TRT quite strongly and has avowed sympathies, or it could be anyone who isn't a Democrat supporter and who doesn't necessarily think Thaksin is the root of all evil in Thailand.

One does not need to be a political science graduate from the Middle Tennessee University to understand what I was referring to.

I did state "farang" red sympathizers, Thai "red shirt" sympathizers are neither being questioned nor are relevant in this particular instance.

I do hope Nick recovers from his "alleged" injuries.

It shouldn't put him off, nor stop him from, executing his duties as a member of the foreign press brigade. He should just exercise a little bit more caution as to where and how he does it.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Bikkii]

Oh dear,

she really is nothing more than a puppet on a string. Maybe we need to see some violence to show the world what a fool he is. March on people!

One mill today in BKK is a sturdy start.

[balo]

I wonder if they will burn down Centralworld and Big C again...?

[fab4]

A lot depends on your reading of the Nation "article". Not known for their depth of knowledge of the use of the English Language and coupled with Thidas previous statements that the Red Shirts will all stay at the Stadium the sentence reads thus;

"Meanwhile, red-shirt leaders have called on supporters to gather at Rajamangala Stadium from today in order to deal with what is expected to be a massive gathering of anti-government protesters tomorrow. The protesters are expected to split into 12 groups around Bangkok.

i.e not the Red Shirts, who are given the title of supporters. This is further reinforced later on in the article "Red-shirt leaders from Pathum Thani said yesterday that they would be bringing more than 10,000 people to Rajamangala Stadium today."

So I don't think you will find there will be "12 groups of red shirts be deployed around the city whilst protesters traveling into Bkk are being blocked and harassed.", in fact, quite the opposite.

We shall see.

You won't think it was the peaceful democracy loving red shirts who through metal spikes on the road to dangerously disrupt the movement of vehicles into Bkk. So who was it ? The Dems plotting to get the reds some bad publicity, pranksters out for a laugh, or the operatives of the mysterious third hand ?

I hope you are right, that the massively larger anit-regime protest will be free from violence, instigated by reds whose track record for violence is well videoed, along with certain of their leaders incitements. I equally hope the anti-regime protesters allow the reds the same freedom of protest that they receive.

Let's see if the RTP can do their jobs this time, and keep the peace.

In the light of events I think now would be a good time to concede that the UDD have been rallying very peacefully in their Stadium, with little or no help from the RTP required.

Whereas the dem sponsored Suthep Roadshow has literally hit the road and visited 14 sites before occupying 3 of them in a similar fashion to their 2008 efforts to paralyse the country.

No need for an apology. I wouldn't expect one anyway.

[GrantSmith]

Paralyze the country?

You're kidding right? They haven't even knocked on Chalerm's door yet!

Swampy is still open for business as are the Ports..

SET is still trading and Banks are still cashing cheques...

A mosquito bite (one of those dengue free mosquitos though), maybe, but paralysis is a bit of a stretch at the moment..

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app