Scotland to become independent in March 2016 if referendum passes

wigantojapan · April 15, 2014

!t is you who first pointed out in this topic that Westminster would be bound by the result; I simply agreed!

Sorry old chap but it wasn't me who first pointed out this topic....I had responded to a question asked of me about the end result of the referendum and i answered that person his question.

you then scrolled through the numerous threads and sliced a part of the original question/answer up and presented your question

So at least try to get the chain of events correct

tAre you seriously suggesting that should the Westminster parliament disagree with the result that it will simply ignore it and effectively say to the Scots "You've had your fun, now back in your place!"?

If so, you are even more paranoid than your many cut and paste jobs suggest

Im delighted to hear that you have spent so much time in going through my various threads and as they have given a No opinion that at least you were happy with that assumption.

Lack of comment on the yes side of the argument leads me to believe that you just thought it was all paranoid delusion clap trap

Well there you have it

You have a vivid imagination to even start to believe that i am paranoid in any way i am very clear,,you yourself might not like my ideas,or fail to understand them, i do apologize for that old chap that does not make me paranoid..

Living in a Unionist idea although wouldn't make me paranoid would not make me happy,and is that not what life is all about to a certain degree.

But as you are a Unionist i can accept, though not understand that fear,paranoid states of mind are common place

i know my state of mind very well and regarding the question of self determination it is clear that all people have the right to self determination.

.Are you perfectly clear on that point?

wigantojapan · April 15, 2014

BTW, do you have an answer to the question of why Salmond wont produce the documents he supposedly has which allegedly prove the claims made by Wings Over Scotland?

He already has and if you read the full article ,,take your time you will find that and many other things,,,,,,its like xmas and the claims are on the wings over

scotland page but the claims came from John Jappy ,so try to keep up old chap

Just because you really don't have any real interest in Scotland doesn't mean to say that other people don't and do keep up with what is going on,,so again please keep up

You are the one doubting ..so troll through all the google links you like to prove it is a fake....,,,i know who i believe

I know it must be hard for you with all the trust you undoubtedly have in the establishment and shame on JOHN JAPPY who was also ex establishment for betraying his brothers ,,or you can say thank you John Jappy for having a conscious

7by7 · April 15, 2014

Wigantojapan,

I have never said that I do not believe that people should not have the right to self determination.

As opposed to yourself, who expressed the view that following the Argentine invasion that right should have been denied to the Falkland Islanders rather than defended by the UK!

You have obviously either not read or failed to understand the many posts where I have stated very clearly that whilst I think it would be a grave mistake for Scotland to become independent, if that is the democratic wish of the Scottish people then I will support them.

The article says that the author could not get the documents because they had been given to Salmond; Salmond hasn't produced them. Why not?

Edited April 15, 2014 by 7by7

nontabury · April 15, 2014

Weeeeeeell, brain washed folk do dastardly deeds in our day and age. Not saying your posts are dastardly, but think you get my drift........

Many of the them have been brain washed by SNP propaganda, there is at least one person on this thread who cannot even think for himself, preferring to paste and post from such a propaganda site. Having said that, let's not forget that many North Koreans also believe and accept the propaganda they are fed.

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wigantojapan · April 15, 2014

As opposed to yourself, who expressed the view that following the Argentine invasion that right should have been denied to the Falkland Islanders rather than defended by the UK!

please provide the l link to back that up.... i will save you the time there isnt

what i did say is i am against ALL WARS

Scotland is trying to achieve the right to self determination by non violence without a bullet being fired.

Falklanders also could have chosen a non violent solution also

that decision was taken out of their hands by your beloved Thatcher

Thatcher Brown Blair Cameron are reasons why there is a yes vote among many other things.

IF you can learn anything on this forum apart from the yes vote is full of delusional paranoid people who can show no or little evidence of anything

well thats for your enjoyment

Are you not better spending your time on other things,,you get old soon enough old chap

Anyway this is not a topic on the Falklands no matter how much you wish and twist away

wigantojapan · April 15, 2014

The article says that the author could not get the documents because they had been given to Salmond; Salmond hasn't produced them. Why not?

Are you saying/believing that the documents exist or not?

ARe you saying/believing that Salmond has the document?

Commander Tamson · April 15, 2014

I really don't understand why this debate/thread has degenerated into whether or not the Jappy documents exist or not. So what if Scotland contributes more to the UK than its small population warrants? Great Britain became, was, and remains great as a Union. The Yes crowd, I'm sorry to say, are a pathetic bunch of romantics who believe that Wallace died with the word Freedom on his lips and, as I've said before I'm ashamed to call them my fellow countrymen.

7by7 · April 15, 2014

WigantoJapan,

If you read the replies from the Speaker's office which the author received, you will see that the documents he has requested and he claims prove his assertions were given to Salmond when he was an MP and so are covered by parliamentary privilege.

Which means the government cannot now release them to anyone else.

Salmond can release them, though.

That he has not done so speaks volumes about the claimed contents of those documents.

Edited April 15, 2014 by 7by7

7by7 · April 15, 2014

As opposed to yourself, who expressed the view that following the Argentine invasion that right should have been denied to the Falkland Islanders rather than defended by the UK!

please provide the l link to back that up.... i will save you the time there isnt

what i did say is i am against ALL WARS

Scotland is trying to achieve the right to self determination by non violence without a bullet being fired.

Falklanders also could have chosen a non violent solution also

that decision was taken out of their hands by your beloved Thatcher

Well, you started here

that is going to cost millions Basil brush stated well so did the numerous wars which the Uk government voted in Conservative and Labour

oops the Scottish people overwhelmingly rejected them all from the Falklands to Iraq

and said similar several times in subsequent posts.

The only non violent solution the Falkland Islanders could have chosen was to kow tow to the Argentinian invaders; thus losing their right to self determination. A right you claim to cherish so dearly for the Scots, but seem happy to stand by and watch being forcibly ripped from others.

I have never called Thatcher 'my beloved' and at the time did disagree with many of her policies.

But like the vast majority of all British people, including Scots, I did support the Falklands task force and restoration of democracy to those islands.

wigantojapan · April 15, 2014

WigantoJapan,

If you read the replies from the Speaker's office which the author received, you will see that the documents he has requested were given to Salmond when he was an MP and so are covered by parliamentary privilege.

Which means the government cannot now release them to anyone else.

Salmond can release them, though.

That he has not done so speaks volumes.

That clears your position up on one thing at least that now you do believe that the documents are real and not a fabrication as you before indicated

7by7 · April 15, 2014

Apologies, I edited my post while you were posting.

The author claims certain documents exist which prove his claims.

He cannot get copies; not, as he implies, due to some conspiracy but because they are covered by Parliamentary privilege.

But Salmond can release them.

So, if, as the author claims, those documents do exist and do prove his claims and thus are extremely damaging to the No campaign; why has Salmond not released them?

The only answer I can think of is that these documents do not prove what the author claims; maybe even the opposite!

Neeranam · April 15, 2014

How black gold was hijacked: North sea oil and the betrayal of Scotland

In 1975, the Government faced a dilemma: how to exploit the potential of its new oil fields without fuelling demands for Scottish independence. So it buried the evidence... It was a document that could have changed the course of Scottish history. Nineteen pages long, Written in an elegant, understated academic hand by the leading Scottish economist Gavin McCrone, presented to the Cabinet office in April 1975 and subsequently buried in a Westminster vault for thirty years. It revealed how North Sea oil could have made an independent Scotland as prosperous as Switzerland. LINK IS THE INDEPENDENT TUESDAY 16TH APRIL.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaThe McCrone report was a UK Government document which was written and researched at the Scottish Office (St. Andrews House in Edinburgh) on behalf of the British Government of the day (Conservative, led by Edward Heath).

The eighteen page report focused on the likely effects of North Sea oil revenue on the economic viability of an independent Scotland. Professor Gavin McCrone wrote the paper as advice to the UK Government. The report predicted that North sea oil revenue would give an independent Scotland a large tax surplus, on such a scale as to be "embarrassing", making the country "as rich as Switzerland."^%5B1%5D He also surmised that this surplus revenue would make the Scottish pound the hardest currency in Europe "with the exception of the Norwegian kronor".

Up till recently the No side said that Scotland was too poor ,,they have since changed that for use of a better word propaganda ,,but a serious amount of the less informed potential voters, deliberate or not still have that thought pattern.

Choose for yourself,think for your self

This does read like an "oil thing". If Scotland had no oil would this independence thing still be on the table ?

Is it an "I am alright jack" thing ?

Enlighten me............

Well Transom I think your finally getting it. While its true that the SNP has been in existence for about 80yrs, it was't until after the discovery of North Sea oil that the independence campaign really took of. Today South East England and Scotland are the two most wealthy ares of the UK, but while the SE have stuck with the rest of the UK, financially supporting the north of England, from where I come from, many Scots, some of whom are fair weather socialist have decided it is " I am alright jock. As a fellow Englishman maybe you will now realise why I have been a big supporter of separation for many,many years, we DO NOT need compatriots or even friends like these people, I'm only sorry for those Scots, and there are many, who do not hold those views.

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"These people"???

I can't wait for independence.

wigantojapan · April 15, 2014

As opposed to yourself, who expressed the view that following the Argentine invasion that right should have been denied to the Falkland Islanders rather than defended by the UK!

please provide the l link to back that up.... i will save you the time there isnt

what i did say is i am against ALL WARS

Scotland is trying to achieve the right to self determination by non violence without a bullet being fired.

Falklanders also could have chosen a non violent solution also

that decision was taken out of their hands by your beloved Thatcher

Well, you started here

that is going to cost millions Basil brush stated well so did the numerous wars which the Uk government voted in Conservative and Labour

oops the Scottish people overwhelmingly rejected them all from the Falklands to Iraq

and said similar several times in subsequent posts.

The only non violent solution the Falkland Islanders could have chosen was to kow tow to the Argentinian invaders; thus losing their right to self determination. A right you claim to cherish so dearly for the Scots, but seem happy to stand by and watch being forcibly ripped from others.

I have never called Thatcher 'my beloved' and at the time did disagree with many of her policies.

But like the vast majority of all British people, including Scots, I did support the Falklands task force and restoration of democracy to those islands.

oops the Scottish people overwhelmingly rejected them all from the Falklands to Iraq is what i said

The only non violent solution the Falkland Islanders could have chosen was to kow tow to the Argentinian invaders; thus losing their right to self determination. A right you claim to cherish so dearly for the Scots, but seem happy to stand by and watch being forcibly ripped from others.

Self determination does not happen over night as is proven in this debate ..it has took 80 years to get here.

The example i always hold up for non violence is Mahatma Gandhi who with one grain of salt paved the way whether you agree with it or not the end of colonization in India.

Who knows The Argentinians might have just went home after their election was won.Thatcher herself was advised not to invade.We will never know.

My position is clear no weapons of mass destruction,,in fact i would have no weapons at all

but that is my believe and why now i will vote and the only reason i will vote the removal of weapons of mass destruction simple isnt it

If Scotland wanted independence and they still wanted weapons of war i would not vote

7by7 · April 15, 2014

If you opposed the war, you opposed the defence of the Falkland islanders right to self determination.

If you seriously think that the Argentinians would have simply eventually packed up and gone home you really are delusional!

You are also delusional if you think that an independent Scotland wont have a defence force, and hence weapons of war!

Still, as you don't live in Scotland you can't vote anyway.

wigantojapan · April 15, 2014

Apologies, I edited my post while you were posting.

The author claims certain documents exist which prove his claims.

He cannot get copies; not, as he implies, due to some conspiracy but because they are covered by Parliamentary privilege.

But Salmond can release them.

So, if, as the author claims, those documents do exist and do prove his claims and thus are extremely damaging to the No campaign; why has Salmond not released them?

The only answer I can think of is that these documents do not prove what the author claims; maybe even the opposite!

Can you provide the link to the author or his page so at least we can co ordinate with that and that we are talking about the same document and same page thank you

7by7 · April 15, 2014

Read your link; I have.

Neeranam · April 15, 2014

SInce someone mentioned Japan - I got this from a Japanese newspaper and find it very on the ball.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2014/04/04/commentary/scotland-a-nation-not-a-region/#.U0BYoKq9Kc2

wigantojapan · April 15, 2014

If you opposed the war, you opposed the defence of the Falkland islanders right to self determination.

If you seriously think that the Argentinians would have simply eventually packed up and gone home you really are delusional!

You are also delusional if you think that an independent Scotland wont have a defence force, and hence weapons of war!

Still, as you don't live in Scotland you can't vote anyway.

Every human being has a choice that is not delusional.

i gave the example of India and yes many did die in the non violent protests,,but Gandhi himself and thousands like him never picked up any weapons as well as you know and defeated the empire...Do you agree with that? Do you agree that historically that did happen.

I know the world we live in and i do know that hatred and war exaggerates hatred and war.

Well lets pray that the weapons of war are never drawn in anger and that the new weapons free scotland can be an inspiration to the rest of the world

There has been too much killing too much division in the name of progress.

Yes there are good things in the UK,,but sensitive people are vulnerable much more now than they ever have been and that is due to the politics of caring for the few at the expense of the many.

Its about people and how they want to live their life.

Scotland is offering a much more caring society than the one offered by Westminister

Scotland thinks that model is sustainable over the long run and gives the people a happiness and wealth and health that has been systematically denied them through various Westminister Governments.

The right wing driven have and are succeeding to an extent of creating a divide within the people on both sides of the border.

Now its not the Moslems who are public enemy no 1 its the Scots

In the 70s and the 80s it was the blacks

Im very well tuned into what is happening ,,I have a vast variety of friends from all walks of life economically and professionally and none of them are interested in Salmond or Cameron to run and dictate their lives

They can make a good happy life for themselves on incomes from 50 pounds a week upwards without any state benefits ,,,so yes we/they don't need the state the westminister state or the Scottish state for that matter.

It might not be the life you want but they are happy with the quality of life they have.

There is so much negatively on this debate,,,same old points of view,,,,Ive been called delusional,,a bigot,paranoid.brainwashed and that's only in the last 30 minutes haha im laughing my head off here

regarding cut and paste..I am new to computers so i have only learnt to do it,,so i am a bit over enthusiastic,,please bear with me.

the main recruiting agent for the SNP was Thatcher in the 70s not oil as stated by nonobury

followed or even preceded by CND

Scots have and still are contributing to all parts of the UK and would have done if th westminister government had played fairly,,which unfortunately for milions of people all over the Uk they have not

wilcopops · April 15, 2014

Scottish independence would damage maritime defence, says First Sea Lord

Admiral Sir George Zambellas says breakaway would weaken navy with bases and infrastructure carved up

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/15/scottish-independence-damage-defence-sea-lord

so what? English will have to learn to defend themselves.

wigantojapan · April 15, 2014

SInce someone mentioned Japan - I got this from a Japanese newspaper and find it very on the ball.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2014/04/04/commentary/scotland-a-nation-not-a-region/#.U0BYoKq9Kc2

All people from the UKe are called English men in the Japanese language,I wonder if this was put into any of the Japanese speaking papers,,that would really confuse them

StreetCowboy · April 15, 2014

SInce someone mentioned Japan - I got this from a Japanese newspaper and find it very on the ball.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2014/04/04/commentary/scotland-a-nation-not-a-region/#.U0BYoKq9Kc2

I've never heard "on the ball" used as a euphemism for 'rabid polemic' before

Basil B · April 15, 2014

There are no EU laws that say if Scotland becomes independent it has has an automatic right of membership, Scotland will need to comply with all the rules of the EU, and negotiate it's terms.

Just for the record I agree also that if Scotland becomes independent it should be admitted to the EU subject to negotiations.

Actually the converse is also true - there are no rules that say Scotland can't join. The EU membership issue has been muddied by the pro unionists and the Spannish. For reasons that I'm sure you're aware of.

By the same situation the newly formed (smaller) UK would also probably have to renegotiate.

Interestingly though none wants OUT of the EU.

There is nothing stopping Scotland applying when all the boxes have been ticked, but it is down to the current members whether they will admit Scotland in to the EU.

AS I said it would be silly if Briton was to object and I do not see that happening, subject to the terms negotiated.

wigantojapan · April 15, 2014

I really don't understand why this debate/thread has degenerated into whether or not the Jappy documents exist or not. So what if Scotland contributes more to the UK than its small population warrants? Great Britain became, was, and remains great as a Union. The Yes crowd, I'm sorry to say, are a pathetic bunch of romantics who believe that Wallace died with the word Freedom on his lips and, as I've said before I'm ashamed to call them my fellow countrymen.

remains great as a Union.dont know how long you have been away from Britain but here are some of the a few million people who would disagree with you....

With 2.3 million children currently living in poverty, the government is focused on achieving their goal of eliminating child poverty by 2020. http://www.google.co.th/aclk?dKJAHAQ&sig=AOD64_0kU4VlqP6LXeps7l_CNfhBX4Yysw&rct=j&q=&ved=0CCkQ0Qw&adurl=http://www.insidegovernment.co.uk/event-details/childpoverty/335

Oxfam urged the chancellor George Osborne to use Wednesday'sbudget to make a fresh assault on tax avoidance and introduce a living wage in a report highlighting how a handful of the super-rich, headed by the Duke of Westminster, have more money and financial assets than 12.6 million Britons put together.Oxfam

Local councils in England and Wales have spent nearly £3 million over the last two years on tackling food poverty, an investigation has revealed. Well over a third of all councils – 140 out of 323 responding – told a survey for the BBC's Panorama programme that they have subsidised foodbanks.https://www.google.co.th/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CFcQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.poverty.ac.uk%2Ftags%2Ffood-poverty&ei=VkRNU5O1GIX48QWkuoHgDQ&usg=AFQjCNH1Yx_4xBJQIuu6pBW2DUWvHtE7zg&sig2=7kIkvSc2ZsmxLWuly6pUMQ

Around 15 million people are "living on the edge" despite the improving economy, a report by a debt charity has warned.

Stepchange said that these people are either falling behind on bills or are trying to plug gaps in their income by using credit to pay for essential outgoings.

It said that as a result of the high reliance on credit to get by, many people "lack resilience" when it comes to coping with financial shocks - such as a change to their employment situation or the possibility of interest rates rising.

The findings about the continued financial pressure faced by millions of Britons comes as a report by the Trades Union Congress found that most workers on controversial zero-hours contracts earn less than the average wage.

transam · April 15, 2014

I really don't understand why this debate/thread has degenerated into whether or not the Jappy documents exist or not. So what if Scotland contributes more to the UK than its small population warrants? Great Britain became, was, and remains great as a Union. The Yes crowd, I'm sorry to say, are a pathetic bunch of romantics who believe that Wallace died with the word Freedom on his lips and, as I've said before I'm ashamed to call them my fellow countrymen.

remains great as a Union.dont know how long you have been away from Britain but here are some of the a few million people who would disagree with you....

With 2.3 million children currently living in poverty, the government is focused on achieving their goal of eliminating child poverty by 2020. http://www.google.co.th/aclk?dKJAHAQ&sig=AOD64_0kU4VlqP6LXeps7l_CNfhBX4Yysw&rct=j&q=&ved=0CCkQ0Qw&adurl=http://www.insidegovernment.co.uk/event-details/childpoverty/335

Oxfam urged the chancellor George Osborne to use Wednesday'sbudget to make a fresh assault on tax avoidance and introduce a living wage in a report highlighting how a handful of the super-rich, headed by the Duke of Westminster, have more money and financial assets than 12.6 million Britons put together.Oxfam

Local councils in England and Wales have spent nearly £3 million over the last two years on tackling food poverty, an investigation has revealed. Well over a third of all councils – 140 out of 323 responding – told a survey for the BBC's Panorama programme that they have subsidised foodbanks.https://www.google.co.th/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CFcQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.poverty.ac.uk%2Ftags%2Ffood-poverty&ei=VkRNU5O1GIX48QWkuoHgDQ&usg=AFQjCNH1Yx_4xBJQIuu6pBW2DUWvHtE7zg&sig2=7kIkvSc2ZsmxLWuly6pUMQ

Around 15 million people are "living on the edge" despite the improving economy, a report by a debt charity has warned.

Stepchange said that these people are either falling behind on bills or are trying to plug gaps in their income by using credit to pay for essential outgoings.

It said that as a result of the high reliance on credit to get by, many people "lack resilience" when it comes to coping with financial shocks - such as a change to their employment situation or the possibility of interest rates rising.

The findings about the continued financial pressure faced by millions of Britons comes as a report by the Trades Union Congress found that most workers on controversial zero-hours contracts earn less than the average wage.

Hmmmmmmmm, bet all these kids have iPhones though................

Folk don't know what poverty is knower days, I do........

wigantojapan · April 15, 2014

Britain today

Britain is scared to face the real issue – it's all about inequality

The growing gap between rich and poor precipitated the last crash. Ominously, the same forces are abroad againhttps://www.google.co.th/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fcommentisfree%2F2014%2Fjan%2F19%2Finequality-threat-recovery-poverty-pay&ei=4UhNU9SEOsGoiAfHwYDgDg&usg=AFQjCNEUbGP5NtW6A1EuGY8-8XSndoG66A&sig2=UKhaim2mofnJPv76ycEQWwOur estimate is based on a comparison between the level of inequality in the UK and the average level seen in developed countries.

UK income inequality is among the highest in the developed world and evidence shows that this is bad for almost everyone.

The Equality Trust works to reduce income inequality in order to improve the quality of life in the UK.

People in more equal societies live longer, have better mental health and have better chances for a good education regardless of their background. Community life is stronger where the income gap is narrower, children do better at school and they are less likely to become teenage parents. When inequality is reduced people trust each other more, there is less violence and rates of imprisonment are lower.

If we want to build a better society, it is essential we take action. The