Few Questions from a Divign Newbie

[Bmouthboyo]

Hi Guys,

Please excuse my ignorance with any of these questions, I thought I would put them out there as someone may find the time to quickly give me some info. I have searched about but just wanted to be sure I have understood it all correctly.

My wife and I will be living in Thailand, BKK for at least the next 2 years and I have always wanted to try diving as my friends have said great things and that LAOS is the place to do it.

Now we are going to Kohn Samui from the 24th to the 3rd Jan this year and I was wondering if this is a good time / place to do it? We get holidays fairly often with my job but seeing as we will be on the island I thought I would look into it. I am thinking about the PADI open water course, although I am not entirely sure which is best suited for what I want. I would like to be able to dive with friends, possibly myself and my wife if possible? and visit areas a little deeper than shore coral etc. To be honest it is all new to me so not entirely sure what to expect, but it would be nice to get it all done in one swoop rather than lots of additional courses over time.

Question Time:

1. Is Koh Samui a good place to learn?
2. Will it be a lot more expensive than other islands?
3. Is the open water course the best one to get given my situation?
4. Will my wife have to complete the open water course also if she wants to join me once I complete the open water course?

Cheers guys

[PhuketdashScuba]

1. The diving from Koh Samui is far from spectacular, and most divesites are in the Koh Tao area, so relatively far from Samui. During your open water course though the quality of the diving will not matter too much, and you'll see more than enough to enjoy yourself and get addicted.

2. Because of the distance to the divesites Koh Samui is one of the more expensive places.

3. Yes, Open Water would be the best option for you now, and the Advanced Open Water Course (in the future) would also be a good idea for you.

4. Yes, both doing the open water course will give you the same diving options.

[NomadJoe]

1. The diving from Koh Samui is far from spectacular, and most divesites are in the Koh Tao area, so relatively far from Samui. During your open water course though the quality of the diving will not matter too much, and you'll see more than enough to enjoy yourself and get addicted.

2. Because of the distance to the divesites Koh Samui is one of the more expensive places.

3. Yes, Open Water would be the best option for you now, and the Advanced Open Water Course (in the future) would also be a good idea for you.

4. Yes, both doing the open water course will give you the same diving options.

Yeah, what he said.

I am not a big fan of diving in the Gulf (where Samui and Tao are) but I am based in Phuket so I am biased. The diving on the Gulf side is not even in the same league as that on the Andaman side. Better vis, more corals, more fish.

If your wife does not get certified with you, then she will be limited to 12m doing a "Intro" dives, also referred to as "Try dives" or "DSD's" (Discover Scuba Diving).

[Shurup]

Yup what they say, and as NomadJoe mentioned, Gulf isn't as good as Andaman sea, but I personally haven't tried diving around Samui.

Just want to clarify: OW (Open Water course) isn't the best option, given your situation. It's your ONLY option. That what everyone starts with, be it PADI or any other organization. Depth limit is 18M so if you want to go past the shore corals, as you said, you will need to take AOW - Advanced Open Water, which has to come AFTER OW. It will give you the max recreational depth limit, which is said to be 40M but there are some arguments on this, regardless, no reason for you to go even that deep as your tank won't last long enough for anything really. I went a little off, so, I'd recommend to Take OW first and see if you like it and then think about AOW, you may want to discuss this with a dive shop and see if you get a deal if taking both courses.

As was already said, your wife will have to take the same training if she wants to go diving with you, otherwise, beside being very limited in depth, she'll also be overpaying for her dives as Discover Scuba diver pays around 500 - 600 baht per day (2 dives) more than a diver with a proper license.

If you haven't been to Ko Phi-Phi yet (in Andaman sea), change your holiday destination and go there, it's a very nice place with some nice and cheap dive sites as they're not far from the island. The farther the operator has to go, the more expensive it is.

[NomadJoe]

... Depth limit is 18M so if you want to go past the shore corals, as you said, you will need to take AOW - Advanced Open Water, which has to come AFTER OW. It will give you the max recreational depth limit, which is said to be 40M but there are some arguments on this,

This is a common misconception. 18m is not a depth limit for open water divers in the way that 12m is with scuba diver and DSD's/intro's. It's only a recommendation. The idea is two open water divers diving alone (without a professional) with no deep diving experience (18+m) shouldn't dive deeper than and in conditions which they are trained for, i.e .18m. But when with a professional guide (DM, AI or Instructor) this guideline does not apply. Most tropical diving is done with a guide That doesn't mean that as a professional I will take an open water diver with 4 dives to 40 meters, but it does mean that I could take them to, say, 24 or so meters with no standards violation. (standards are essentially the "laws" for divemasters and instructors) But the guide needs to take into consideration may things including dates of last dive, number of dives, and diving conditions in order to make a determination as to what is safe. But open water divers can and do go below 18m safely, if with a professional.

[JoeLing]

My wife and I will be living in Thailand, BKK for at least the next 2 years and I have always wanted to try diving as my friends have said great things and that LAOS is the place to do it.

Very sorry but your friends might have referred to "Muff-diving" but sure not scuba diving.

Laos is a Land locked country and the only place to dive is either between the legs of a pretty girl

or the murky waters of the Mekong river.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for deep sea diving, well Samui is pretty far away from the dive spots here in the Southern Gulf

of Thailand. Koh Phangan or Koh Tao are much better places to learn but not necessarily the most

beautiful to dive.

Koh Phangan and Koh Tao are supposed to be some of the cheapest places world wide to obtain

your PADI certificate and on both islands, prices are very similar. Although Koh Tao might have

slightly cheaper dive options, life and accommodation on Koh Phangan is considerably cheaper.

Many Dive Schools offer free accommodation and other incentives if you book with them, so do

shop around for the best deals. Just as a guide line, I attached below one of the price lists of one

of the many Dive Schools here on Koh Phangan.

I would suggest you make both, "Open Water" and the "Advanced" certificate in one go, with a

couple of "Fun Dives" in between. Many Dive Schools will give discount if you make them both

together. With the "Open Water" certificate, you will be very restricted in your choice of dive places.

As for diving itself, make your PADI certificate on Koh Phangan or Koh Tao but once you have your

certificates, go dive in the Andaman Sea as there are so many more beautiful places to dive, then

here in the Southern Gulf of Thailand.

If I can help you with more specific info, please send me a mail

[NomadJoe]

... Depth limit is 18M so if you want to go past the shore corals, as you said, you will need to take AOW - Advanced Open Water, which has to come AFTER OW. It will give you the max recreational depth limit, which is said to be 40M but there are some arguments on this,

This is a common misconception. 18m is not a depth limit for open water divers in the way that 12m is with scuba diver and DSD's/intro's. It's only a recommendation. The idea is two open water divers diving alone (without a professional) with no deep diving experience (18+m) shouldn't dive deeper than and in conditions which they are trained for, i.e .18m. But when with a professional guide (DM, AI or Instructor) this guideline does not apply. Most tropical diving is done with a guide That doesn't mean that as a professional I will take an open water diver with 4 dives to 40 meters, but it does mean that I could take them to, say, 24 or so meters with no standards violation. (standards are essentially the "laws" for divemasters and instructors) But the guide needs to take into consideration may things including dates of last dive, number of dives, and diving conditions in order to make a determination as to what is safe. But open water divers can and do go below 18m safely, if with a professional.

I should also have added that experienced OW divers can also dive deeper than 18m without a dive professional present. It's really a combination of factors which determine suitablitly for deeper diving. Trained level (certification level), experience (number of dives and type of diving), time since last dive, personal stamina/health, weather/water conditions, besides whether or not you are being looked after by a professional.

[JoeLing]

Got you an other Koh Phangan price list to compare.
( Sorry about the coffee stains )

.

[Bmouthboyo]

That is amazing help thank you! Sorry I meant LOS not LAOS in my original post lol

[JoeLing]

That is amazing help thank you! Sorry I meant LOS not LAOS in my original post lol

[Shurup]

... Depth limit is 18M so if you want to go past the shore corals, as you said, you will need to take AOW - Advanced Open Water, which has to come AFTER OW. It will give you the max recreational depth limit, which is said to be 40M but there are some arguments on this,

This is a common misconception. 18m is not a depth limit for open water divers in the way that 12m is with scuba diver and DSD's/intro's. It's only a recommendation. The idea is two open water divers diving alone (without a professional) with no deep diving experience (18+m) shouldn't dive deeper than and in conditions which they are trained for, i.e .18m. But when with a professional guide (DM, AI or Instructor) this guideline does not apply. Most tropical diving is done with a guide That doesn't mean that as a professional I will take an open water diver with 4 dives to 40 meters, but it does mean that I could take them to, say, 24 or so meters with no standards violation. (standards are essentially the "laws" for divemasters and instructors) But the guide needs to take into consideration may things including dates of last dive, number of dives, and diving conditions in order to make a determination as to what is safe. But open water divers can and do go below 18m safely, if with a professional.

I should also have added that experienced OW divers can also dive deeper than 18m without a dive professional present. It's really a combination of factors which determine suitablitly for deeper diving. Trained level (certification level), experience (number of dives and type of diving), time since last dive, personal stamina/health, weather/water conditions, besides whether or not you are being looked after by a professional.

I doubt there are many experienced OW divers, those with lots of dives behind them. I'm not denying there can't be, but it's very unlikely someone would limit themselves to shallow depths from the beginning of their diving career, if they're truly into diving. And surely no matter how many dives, they can't expect every dive shop to take them onto a deep dive. Dive operators have responsibilities and insurance and they follow the guidelines. sure all these different certification levels are just guidelines, there are no underwater police and if someone has all the gear and an access to the compressor and a boat, they don't need any certifications and that person may in fact be more experienced diver than any other diver in thousand of miles around them... If no (proper) licence it pretty much means no diving with any (most???) dive operators.

[NomadJoe]

... Depth limit is 18M so if you want to go past the shore corals, as you said, you will need to take AOW - Advanced Open Water, which has to come AFTER OW. It will give you the max recreational depth limit, which is said to be 40M but there are some arguments on this,

This is a common misconception. 18m is not a depth limit for open water divers in the way that 12m is with scuba diver and DSD's/intro's. It's only a recommendation. The idea is two open water divers diving alone (without a professional) with no deep diving experience (18+m) shouldn't dive deeper than and in conditions which they are trained for, i.e .18m. But when with a professional guide (DM, AI or Instructor) this guideline does not apply. Most tropical diving is done with a guide That doesn't mean that as a professional I will take an open water diver with 4 dives to 40 meters, but it does mean that I could take them to, say, 24 or so meters with no standards violation. (standards are essentially the "laws" for divemasters and instructors) But the guide needs to take into consideration may things including dates of last dive, number of dives, and diving conditions in order to make a determination as to what is safe. But open water divers can and do go below 18m safely, if with a professional.

I should also have added that experienced OW divers can also dive deeper than 18m without a dive professional present. It's really a combination of factors which determine suitablitly for deeper diving. Trained level (certification level), experience (number of dives and type of diving), time since last dive, personal stamina/health, weather/water conditions, besides whether or not you are being looked after by a professional.

I doubt there are many experienced OW divers, those with lots of dives behind them. I'm not denying there can't be, but it's very unlikely someone would limit themselves to shallow depths from the beginning of their diving career, if they're truly into diving. And surely no matter how many dives, they can't expect every dive shop to take them onto a deep dive. Dive operators have responsibilities and insurance and they follow the guidelines. sure all these different certification levels are just guidelines, there are no underwater police and if someone has all the gear and an access to the compressor and a boat, they don't need any certifications and that person may in fact be more experienced diver than any other diver in thousand of miles around them... If no (proper) licence it pretty much means no diving with any (most???) dive operators.

I get OW divers with lots of dives on our boats pretty regularly, but yes, more often they are AOW, Rescue or MSD. In my experience, a divers experience will trump certification level every time.

Perhaps getting a bit off topic here but the liability a shop or boat operator incurs is really more to due with location. The risk can range from nothing to severe. In more litigious jurisdictions the consequences of renting to an unqualified diver that then injures themselves can be huge. There is also the issue of losing membership to whichever dive certification organization that shop or boat operator belongs. Even filling tanks without proof of certification can be problematic, an issue that is becoming more common as the popularity of paintball grows. Paint-ballers can use scuba cylinders to fill their guns,but usually aren't certified. Back when I was teaching stateside I would occasionally have paint-ballers take the openwater course for the sole purpose of having a card which allowed them to get air fills anywhere hassle free. Our shop knew the regulars and filled them anyway,as long as they signed a form promissory note stating they would not use the tank for scuba diving, which we created and got approval by PADI.

For those people that may have started diving long ago and just never got certified, there is an "experience diver program" offered by the dive certification agencies allowing the diver to skip much of the instruction if they can show experience and competency.

[NomadJoe]

Got you an other Koh Phangan price list to compare.

( Sorry about the coffee stains )

.diveprices 2.png

That is pretty much right at the low end of Phuket prices, but some places here are selling it at 18k plus. Those places tend to offer a bit more luxury, private or semi-private courses, have experienced instructors, have native speakers of the the the students native language, and have work permits for their instructors (places like Tao and Phi Phi if the instructor is not Thai they most certainly will not have WP's,i.e.are illegal labor).

I keep hearing of these horror stories from places like Phi Phi and Tao where the student quite happily pays 7900B for an OW course and they end up in a large group diving off the beach or in longtails with brand new instructors, Thai instructors (not that there aren't good ones), or even instructors that haven't completed their training yet because they are working off their shop fees before being given their OWSI cards. On the last day the manager steps in and signs all the papers, and it will be his name on the instructors card even though he did not have anything to do with the course! It's still very much the wild west in those places. I have always felt that learning to use life support equipment to breath underwater shouldn't go to the lowest bidder.

Edited December 13, 2013 by NomadJoe

[Bmouthboyo]

Some seriously detailed advice here, thank you all! I think we will probably firstly get our OW as it seems to offer us the chance to fit it into a long weekend (3 days?) where as an OW with AOW all in one seems to take about 5? Which would be doable but would mean waiting until I have that much time off.

Out of interest, someone at work commented on another member of staff being an ex diving instructor or something along those lines and the possibility of doing the theory side through him and then only havign to do the dives with a company. Is this doable or have I misunderstood? If it is an idea what would the benefits be?

[JoeLing]

Got you an other Koh Phangan price list to compare.

( Sorry about the coffee stains )

.diveprices 2.png

That is pretty much right at the low end of Phuket prices, but some places here are selling it at 18k plus, but those places tend to offer a bit more like luxury, private or semi-private courses, experienced instructors, instructors that have work permits (Places like Tao and Phi Phi if they are not Thai they most certainly will not have WP's,i.e.are illegal labor) and also speak the the students native language.

The ones I quoted have definitely fully employed Dive Teachers, not pools of several

"Holiday instructors" "working" sometimes here, sometimes there ;-)

Lessons are available in most going foreign languages, a couple of them have even a Thai DM !!

(although don't know any Russian or Chinese speaking DM yet here on KPG ;-) )

[JoeLing]

Some seriously detailed advice here, thank you all! I think we will probably firstly get our OW as it seems to offer us the chance to fit it into a long weekend (3 days?) where as an OW with AOW all in one seems to take about 5? Which would be doable but would mean waiting until I have that much time off.

Out of interest, someone at work commented on another member of staff being an ex diving instructor or something along those lines and the possibility of doing the theory side through him and then only havign to do the dives with a company. Is this doable or have I misunderstood? If it is an idea what would the benefits be?

Not sure if you'd have any time or financial benefits of doing that as I recon, theory and practice goes hand in hand.

But doesn't mean you shouldn't ask. Competition is so high, Dive Schools are often happy to negotiate a discount.

Edited December 13, 2013 by JoeLing

[Shurup]

You can take the online classes with PADI and then find a shop to do the dive part, not sure on the online courses costs or how much the dive shops would charge for the dive part of the course... I do not believe it to be any big saving, if any, but may save you some time.

If I were to do it again, I'd still do it the same way, do it all at the dive shop of your choice, hang out with the guys for a day or so drinking beer and go with them if they feel like good people.

[PhuketdashScuba]

Some seriously detailed advice here, thank you all! I think we will probably firstly get our OW as it seems to offer us the chance to fit it into a long weekend (3 days?) where as an OW with AOW all in one seems to take about 5? Which would be doable but would mean waiting until I have that much time off.

Out of interest, someone at work commented on another member of staff being an ex diving instructor or something along those lines and the possibility of doing the theory side through him and then only havign to do the dives with a company. Is this doable or have I misunderstood? If it is an idea what would the benefits be?

For the theory part you will be issued with a referral form, which has to be filled out and signed by the instructor.

If the instructor you're using for the theory part is not in teaching status anymore he can not sign off on this, so that is not an option. Plus he might not be in possession of the latest open water video, I don't know if he can provide you with the manual. So all in all that is IMO not a viable option.

Also, only doing the theory hardly saves you any time, and therefor also no money. If you could do the referral including poolwork that would save you time and money for the latter part of the course, but the additional costs will be higher than the part saved.

Doing the theory part of the course online is an option, but with PADI there is a charge for this. The DC you do that with will probably give you a discount, but again that discount will be smaller than the initial fee. What might be a better option is studying the theory with an e-manual. Your DC can provide you with the manual online available, so you can save some time on the spot but will still have to do the knowledge reviews, quizzes and exams with your DC. For that there is no additional charge.

[JoeLing]

Got you an other Koh Phangan price list to compare.

( Sorry about the coffee stains )

.diveprices 2.png

That is pretty much right at the low end of Phuket prices, but some places here are selling it at 18k plus. Those places tend to offer a bit more luxury, private or semi-private courses, have experienced instructors, have native speakers of the the the students native language, and have work permits for their instructors (places like Tao and Phi Phi if the instructor is not Thai they most certainly will not have WP's,i.e.are illegal labor).

I keep hearing of these horror stories from places like Phi Phi and Tao where the student quite happily pays 7900B for an OW course and they end up in a large group diving off the beach or in longtails with brand new instructors, Thai instructors (not that there aren't good ones), or even instructors that haven't completed their training yet because they are working off their shop fees before being given their OWSI cards. On the last day the manager steps in and signs all the papers, and it will be his name on the instructors card even though he did not have anything to do with the course! It's still very much the wild west in those places. I have always felt that learning to use life support equipment to breath underwater shouldn't go to the lowest bidder.

Well, suppose Phuket must be a bit more expensive.

Could this ........

....... be the reason why

[Bmouthboyo]

Quick question. Is it possible to do the AOW over say 2 weekends so I don't have to book time of work? Could trip to. Pattaya then and go someplace nice once qualified.

[Shurup]

Yes you can. You can stretch the AOW over the 2 weekends if you like, one day on each weekend if you can't get 2 days off work on a row. You'll then be issued a temporary certification card with which you can go diving at any PADI shop.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[PhuketdashScuba]

Advanced open water certification requires 5 dives, so in most areas it is possible to do it over 2 days in 1 weekend.

More and more DC's issue certifications online, and if certified that way you will be registered in the database immediately, you'll be issued with a confirmation of that certification and PADI pro's, including DC's, can check your certification online. This makes the temporary card more and more a relic of the past.

[NomadJoe]

Advanced open water certification requires 5 dives, so in most areas it is possible to do it over 2 days in 1 weekend.

More and more DC's issue certifications online, and if certified that way you will be registered in the database immediately, you'll be issued with a confirmation of that certification and PADI pro's, including DC's, can check your certification online. This makes the temporary card more and more a relic of the past.

Furthermore, some dive centers can print their own permanent cards on site the day of completion.

[NomadJoe]

Yes you can. You can stretch the AOW over the 2 weekends if you like, one day on each weekend if you can't get 2 days off work on a row. You'll then be issued a temporary certification card with which you can go diving at any PADI shop. Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

It's good at non PADI shops too.

[Bmouthboyo]

Ah I thought the Open water was a 3 day course.

Oops I said AOW when I meant Open Water, sorry

Edited December 25, 2013 by Bmouthboyo

[Shurup]

Makes no difference AOW or OW, everything that's been said above, applies to the OW as well.

Sent from my SM-N900 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[NomadJoe]

Ah I thought the Open water was a 3 day course. Oops I said AOW when I meant Open Water, sorry

It is performance based not time based. So openwater is typically 3 or 4 days. The minimum days required by standards is actually just 2 days but that is only if you (the student) first complete either all the online eLearning from the diver certification agency's website (PADI, SSI etc) or all the knowledge reviews from the manual and watch the video before the course.

The openwater course requires 4 open water dives, and only three of them can be completed in a single day, which is why minimum days by standards is two. I don't recommend that unless you already have a lot of diving experience before you get certified.