Hiding your western culture, moral and mindset...

[khunPer]

A very good post and question.

I agree in, that it is impossible to give up your original culture – like I will always be a farang here in Thailand – but when it comes to integrate locally and not isolate in a “farang ghetto”, you have to accept “the Thai way of thinking”; if you cannot in a polite way change the Thais view on the subject of matter (believe that might be difficult). The OP mentions the example with the haircut of the schoolboy. I’m not surprised, having for long time heard about public schools and their haircut standards – can be avoided by just following the school’s rules; or by letting the kid attend a private school without, in our opinion, silly haircut standards.

I think you can easily live here with a mix of your homeland culture and the acceptance of local culture. Both the place I stay, where they are used to foreigners and tourists, and when visiting a village up at rural Isaan, the locals seems to understand that I have another lifestyle in some ways of living, and that I however try to integrate as much as possible when attending or mixing with the local way of living.

Even small things, from a farang point of view, can cause big problems. I never forget my mistake inviting my GF’s family (parents and brother) for an ice cream after shopping in Big C in the nearby city – wow; there was a Swendsen’s in the mall. I believe it may also have been their first shopping in a mall. The mom got so upset and walked out in anger; me the stupid farang trying to be kind did not understand anything, until I found out that you cannot spend more money (165b) than from a whole days hard work in rice fields (140b) on one ice cream only. When explained I surely understood. Time has however changed that, and today it is accepted that my GF and I in some ways have a different kind of lifestyle – and her family now do enjoy when we invite them to visit Swendsen’s.

And yes, there are things, which seems so morally wrong, again from a Western point of view, but I have learned just to accept them, staying here – it’s the Thai culture. It’s just like I, if I had stayed in my homeland, would not accept the Muslims to force, from a Western point of view, their Middle-aged Sharia-way-of-life onto “my” society.

I know very well, that sometimes one’s patience reach the point, where the red string is just about to burst. Then I always say to myself: Hello khun Per, You are a guest in this country, if you don’t like the way they live, you shall fly – and: How do you like to see foreigners with a different culture living in your country, shall the original majority population change their standards because of a minority of foreigners?

Yes, I may be one of those farangs who more often “just bow my head and stay low” rather than fighting for the minority rights – however, I feel I have still managed my life fairly well here, perhaps because I often “just bow my head and stay low”, and seem to be widely accepted as a part of the local Thai-community; but I will always be “the farang”.

[WitawatWatawit]

David48 said:the happiest people are those who are adjustable to their surroundings without compromising their core principles

You are correct! me too!

Me three. Although I won't stoop to putting ice in my beer. That's indefensible. The main problem that I found in adjusting to life here was how to handle situations where you need to confront someone. I'm sure this is part of what the OP is talking about. But it's something we all need to learn how to handle because of the potential for a serious problem arising. So it's often a case of learning to swallow your pride and back down or risk getting your block knocked off - something I have come close to several times. The other thing I learned in conjunction with that was how to state my case in a firm manner without raising the heat. This is essential when dealing with govt people. Be authoritative without being threatening - and smile . Works well for me, even though I fuming inside and need a beer with lots of ice.

[hellodolly]

I will always respect thai culture in everyway however some things they do wrong are put down to culture by them and others but the truth is are really going against their true culture.

I will respect their true culture but I cannot change the aussie in me.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

We all have a cross to bear. Being Aussie is a big one.

[sustento]

Funny thing is ....lets reverse the situation....look at immigration by muslims in "Western" countries;;;;First thing that comes to mind is the westerners saying "they came to OUR country so why don't they accept our culture if they want to live here....otherwise LEAVE"

Double standard....pair for the course in western thinking.....whats good for us MUST be good for everbody...

Wot 'e said!!!

[khunpa]

I gotta laugh....

Khunpa states....."....and then when you ask a Thai-person for advice on the same issue, they will say: "I would just go to the police"..."

Well I have asked a number of "Thai-person" ...and the LAST person they would go to is the police.....WHY....I have been told by them they " do not trust the police"...

Soooo, Khunpa....not sure what country you living in BUT its NOT Thailand.....and if it is (which I doubt)....your not speaking to the "average" Thai.

Well, just keep on laughing... and then go ask your Thai-friends where they would go to get help, if e.g. their car got stolen. I bet you they would not call Santa Claus...

Again a total Farang overreaction resulting in a complete misunderstanding for realtity here. The police is corrupt in Thailand (which everyone know), so now the Farang conclusion suddenly is, that Thai people never go to the police.

Actually, Thai people do use the police to solve many issues and disputes in daily life. And they do call them, when they get robbed or have things stolen from them. Just like in any other country. They might not fully trust them and know they require Tea-money sometimes, but concluding that no Thais go there for help, is simply not true.

And concluding based on that, that I do not even live in Thailand, is just as stupid.

Again and example of over analyzing and the need to draw a "dramatic" Farang conclusion on something that simply is not a fact. I wonder sometimes if some Farang's make over-conclusions about things here, because they think it makes their life here more exciting to people, who do not live here. People make up things in their head, that is simply not true and aligned with reality. A bit like the statement "All Thai-women are prostitutes and are liars". It is simply not true - unless of course your home and entire world is in and around Nana Plaza... Same as it is also not true that Thai-people, do not go the the police for help, because they do not trust them.

As said, I have lived most of my life abroad and sometimes when I meet people who have not travelled much, then say: "Wow, it must be exciting to live in Thailand". But the fact is that Thailand is just like all other countries in the world and there is nothing super special about it.

Of course I like the weather, culture and people here, but you can also find other nice countries to live in, if you want. Living here is just live living any other place. You wake up in the morning, go to work to make a living and stay home with your family after work. Nothing special or exciting about that... or different from other countries. But I think some people need to add some "drama" and excitement to living abroad. So they over-exaggerate reality to make their daily life and the fact they live in another country seem more exciting to themselves and others. And by doing so facts are many times turned into fiction and over-analyzing of e.g. Thai people and their way of thinking.

Edited November 30, 2013 by khunpa

[Kondiao]

Very well put Khun Pa. Among so many simple. shallow comments and insults going back and forth in these forums from people - people criticizing Thai ways and people telling others to go back where they came from. I appreciate your insightful comments. One thing I would like to add, IMHO, people often come to conclusions quickly about any particular behavior they see among Thai's and don't try to understand or take the trouble to explain how they see things differently than the locals, with patience and respect. Not trying to condemn or make excuses - I am just saying that is how people act. Speaking for myself, I don't think that I will ever in this lifetime be able to "Wai" correctly, in all situations, though I think it is an elegant, graceful custom. And other things - the way people drive here - the senseless loss of life, the way Emergency vehicles get blocked by traffic when trying to rush to maybe help someone who is bleeding to death - I will never be OK with that either. But that is just me. My point was that it is not so much that farangs are afraid to speak up and tell their feelings about things they disapprove of, but rather that people, everywhere tend to want to have an answer quickly, to condemn something or praise it, without taking the time to discuss, share opinions, understand things. They want to live secluded as much as possible in an island with their own kind, where things are more easily understood and people seem more familiar.

[khunpa]

A very good post and question.

I agree in, that it is impossible to give up your original culture – like I will always be a farang here in Thailand – but when it comes to integrate locally and not isolate in a “farang ghetto”, you have to accept “the Thai way of thinking”; if you cannot in a polite way change the Thais view on the subject of matter (believe that might be difficult). The OP mentions the example with the haircut of the schoolboy. I’m not surprised, having for long time heard about public schools and their haircut standards – can be avoided by just following the school’s rules; or by letting the kid attend a private school without, in our opinion, silly haircut standards.

I think you can easily live here with a mix of your homeland culture and the acceptance of local culture. Both the place I stay, where they are used to foreigners and tourists, and when visiting a village up at rural Isaan, the locals seems to understand that I have another lifestyle in some ways of living, and that I however try to integrate as much as possible when attending or mixing with the local way of living.

Even small things, from a farang point of view, can cause big problems. I never forget my mistake inviting my GF’s family (parents and brother) for an ice cream after shopping in Big C in the nearby city – wow; there was a Swendsen’s in the mall. I believe it may also have been their first shopping in a mall. The mom got so upset and walked out in anger; me the stupid farang trying to be kind did not understand anything, until I found out that you cannot spend more money (165b) than from a whole days hard work in rice fields (140b) on one ice cream only. When explained I surely understood. Time has however changed that, and today it is accepted that my GF and I in some ways have a different kind of lifestyle – and her family now do enjoy when we invite them to visit Swendsen’s.

And yes, there are things, which seems so morally wrong, again from a Western point of view, but I have learned just to accept them, staying here – it’s the Thai culture. It’s just like I, if I had stayed in my homeland, would not accept the Muslims to force, from a Western point of view, their Middle-aged Sharia-way-of-life onto “my” society.

I know very well, that sometimes one’s patience reach the point, where the red string is just about to burst. Then I always say to myself: Hello khun Per, You are a guest in this country, if you don’t like the way they live, you shall fly – and: How do you like to see foreigners with a different culture living in your country, shall the original majority population change their standards because of a minority of foreigners?

Yes, I may be one of those farangs who more often “just bow my head and stay low” rather than fighting for the minority rights – however, I feel I have still managed my life fairly well here, perhaps because I often “just bow my head and stay low”, and seem to be widely accepted as a part of the local Thai-community; but I will always be “the farang”.

I completely agree that you must accept Thai-culture and way of life, if you want to live and work here. I am in no way trying to or on a mission to change Thailand or Thai-culture.

What I am trying to say, is that I sometimes see westerners here totally forgetting their own culture and where they originally came from. And when they do, they start thinking so extreme that it becomes a kind of self-made Thai-culture - that has nothing to do with the real Thailand, Thai-people or Thai-culture.

They become so extremely Thai-fixated, that even common sense no longer applies - reality is totally forgotten and even Thai-people would not agree. They are the Farang "Thai-experts", who are quick to hand out verbal planeticket's to any farang, who would criticize ANYTHING about Thailand. The standard answer is often "This is Thailand and the Thai-way... If you do not like it, then just go home!". There is no room for an open debate and if you protest, then you are either accused for not living here long enough or not living here at all. Basically it is Farangs that become narrow minded Farang-haters.

It is in many ways ridiculous, since we all know (especially us who live in a mixed relationship), that it requires openness, compromise and respect from both sides, for things to work. Nowhere but in a mixed relationship, will you find a bigger need for different people to work together and try and understand each other. But it also applies outside of the relationship, if you want to work and live here amongst Thai-people.

A Farang, that lives here and has thrown away his own western moral, values and culture, is in my eyes therefore a lost soul. Because as you also say in your post: "You will always be a Farang here, no matter what!". Therefore it is in my mind also always important for Farangs to remember where they came from and truly value that. E.g. telling people to go back home if they ask questions or criticizes something Thai, just shows me that these people are totally lost from reality.

For sure the value of learning from each others cultures is totally lost, if the possibility of debate and different opinions is not an option... And for some TV members that does not seem to be the case, which actually is kind of sad...

[attento]

I'm so ashamed of myself for putting ice in my beer. I know its wrong and goes against western thinking. I've actually come to like it.

No need feel ashamed, Many of us young lads think the beer is too strong and needs diluting . . .

[Thai at Heart]

I gotta laugh....

Khunpa states....."....and then when you ask a Thai-person for advice on the same issue, they will say: "I would just go to the police"..."

Well I have asked a number of "Thai-person" ...and the LAST person they would go to is the police.....WHY....I have been told by them they " do not trust the police"...

Soooo, Khunpa....not sure what country you living in BUT its NOT Thailand.....and if it is (which I doubt)....your not speaking to the "average" Thai.

Well, just keep on laughing... and then go ask your Thai-friends where they would go to get help, if e.g. their car got stolen. I bet you they would not call Santa Claus...

Again a total Farang overreaction resulting in a complete misunderstanding for realtity here. The police is corrupt in Thailand (which everyone know), so now the Farang conclusion suddenly is, that Thai people never go to the police.

Actually, Thai people do use the police to solve many issues and disputes in daily life. And they do call them, when they get robbed or have things stolen from them. Just like in any other country. They might not fully trust them and know they require Tea-money sometimes, but concluding that no Thais go there for help, is simply not true.

And concluding based on that, that I do not even live in Thailand, is just as stupid.

Again and example of over analyzing and the need to draw a "dramatic" Farang conclusion on something that simply is not a fact. I wonder sometimes if some Farang's make over-conclusions about things here, because they think it makes their life here more exciting to people, who do not live here. People make up things in their head, that is simply not true and aligned with reality. A bit like the statement "All Thai-women are prostitutes and are liars". It is simply not true - unless of course your home and entire world is in and around Nana Plaza... Same as it is also not true that Thai-people, do not go the the police for help, because they do not trust them.

As said, I have lived most of my life abroad and sometimes when I meet people who have not travelled much, then say: "Wow, it must be exciting to live in Thailand". But the fact is that Thailand is just like all other countries in the world and there is nothing super special about it.

Of course I like the weather, culture and people here, but you can also find other nice countries to live in, if you want. Living here is just live living any other place. You wake up in the morning, go to work to make a living and stay home with your family after work. Nothing special or exciting about that... or different from other countries. But I think some people need to add some "drama" and excitement to living abroad. So they over-exaggerate reality to make their daily life and the fact they live in another country seem more exciting to themselves and others. And by doing so facts are many times turned into fiction and over-analyzing of e.g. Thai people and their way of thinking.

Indeed, there are few reasons to believe Thailand is super special. Problem is that once you get to that point, then you just have to reconcile that sometimes some really stupid things happen in thailand and you must just put up with it.

My second story was when,,coming out of my small soi onto a 4 lane road, a motorcycle drove into the passenger side of the car. He was going completely up the wrong side of the road,but argued to everyone that I the stupid farang must expect people to drive up the wrong side. Then there was the classic "if he hadn't come to thailand, this wouldn't have happened."

Its like arguing with a 6 year old.

Thailand. Its a love hate kind of thing.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[thehelmsman]

I'm so ashamed of myself for putting ice in my beer. I know its wrong and goes against western thinking. I've actually come to like it.

You are one sick man!! Seek help!!

I'm beyond help - The dark side has taken over.

[beachproperty]

I gotta laugh....

Khunpa states....."....and then when you ask a Thai-person for advice on the same issue, they will say: "I would just go to the police"..."

Well I have asked a number of "Thai-person" ...and the LAST person they would go to is the police.....WHY....I have been told by them they " do not trust the police"...

Soooo, Khunpa....not sure what country you living in BUT its NOT Thailand.....and if it is (which I doubt)....your not speaking to the "average" Thai.

Well, just keep on laughing... and then go ask your Thai-friends where they would go to get help, if e.g. their car got stolen. I bet you they would not call Santa Claus...

Again a total Farang overreaction resulting in a complete misunderstanding for realtity here. The police is corrupt in Thailand (which everyone know), so now the Farang conclusion suddenly is, that Thai people never go to the police.

Actually, Thai people do use the police to solve many issues and disputes in daily life. And they do call them, when they get robbed or have things stolen from them. Just like in any other country. They might not fully trust them and know they require Tea-money sometimes, but concluding that no Thais go there for help, is simply not true.

And concluding based on that, that I do not even live in Thailand, is just as stupid.

Again and example of over analyzing and the need to draw a "dramatic" Farang conclusion on something that simply is not a fact. I wonder sometimes if some Farang's make over-conclusions about things here, because they think it makes their life here more exciting to people, who do not live here. People make up things in their head, that is simply not true and aligned with reality. A bit like the statement "All Thai-women are prostitutes and are liars". It is simply not true - unless of course your home and entire world is in and around Nana Plaza... Same as it is also not true that Thai-people, do not go the the police for help, because they do not trust them.

As said, I have lived most of my life abroad and sometimes when I meet people who have not travelled much, then say: "Wow, it must be exciting to live in Thailand". But the fact is that Thailand is just like all other countries in the world and there is nothing super special about it.

Of course I like the weather, culture and people here, but you can also find other nice countries to live in, if you want. Living here is just live living any other place. You wake up in the morning, go to work to make a living and stay home with your family after work. Nothing special or exciting about that... or different from other countries. But I think some people need to add some "drama" and excitement to living abroad. So they over-exaggerate reality to make their daily life and the fact they live in another country seem more exciting to themselves and others. And by doing so facts are many times turned into fiction and over-analyzing of e.g. Thai people and their way of thinking.

Khunpa .....what cocoon do you live in?......Never said Thai people "never" go to the police....of course they do!...They just don't "like" to and if they do its a last resort as they don't trust them!

What do I base that on you ask?....Well I HAVE talked to a number of Thai's (not just my girlfriend as you have) ....and this is what THEY have told me....

You apparently are the one who makes the overgeneralizations based on your limited life here of 4 years as though you are the expert on "Thai Life" and "expats thinking".....one of the drawbacks of youth is the knowledge that you "think you know everything!" .....well you don't....have an opinion? fine....

But you are the one who refered in this thread about the youth who got the buzz cut from the school director.....inferring that if you are an expat and have a concilatory attitude towards how to address the situation that said expat has left his morals at "home" and has the "give-up" attitude of TIT....WRONG...

In the other post What do you think?... (post regarding the buzz cut from the director of the school)

You have compared said buzz cut to "Rape"

And I qoute "I bet, If the director had raped to boy, there would still be people here defending the director and saying it was the boys own fault. Some people seem to just lose all common sense when they come to Thailand. It is unbelievable..."

A little over dramatic ...don't you think.....but then again your youth and frustration at your lack of being able to make your point!

Were in Thailand ..... ....just because we may have a more rational way to solve the problems we deal with in Thailand and NOT your "Testoserone fueled solutions"....does that make us "Whimps"....maybe....maybe not (using your brains vs brawn always seemed to me the best solution).

Grow up....quit generalizing.....and Tone down on the "aggressiveness" (it really isn't the western way.....only if "you" make it ...is it)

Hey ...good luck anyway....we all could use some here in Thailand!

Edited November 30, 2013 by beachproperty

[maxx58]

I'm so ashamed of myself for putting ice in my beer. I know its wrong and goes against western thinking. I've actually come to like it.

Heresy! You and your ilk should be taken out and publicly flogged!!

[Hedghog]

I think I have adapted.

If anything needs doing,do it tomorrow.

Unless it involves the bedroom aircon.

Don't have aircon.

[mok199]

_{..the.thai way or the hiway.}

[NoshowJones]

Khunpa states......However, what I have also noticed (also on this forum), is that many expats and foreigners connected to Thailand simply say... "This is the Thai way, just live with it...". And in many situations, that is also the best way to handle a situation here. BUT sometimes, I also see situations where it in my opinion is used completely wrong. Like e.g. the latest tread with the horrible haircut of the young boy at school. Some people say... "This is Thailand, just accept it" and others warn about trouble, if e.g. the OP goes to the police.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you missed the train on this one....you seem to contradict yourself in saying how well traveled you are and how adaptable you are...Apparently your NOT......and then you state the above!

The situation you speak of (boy getting haircut by school director) is not something specific to Thailand (so your analysis "this is Thailand just accept it" is WRONG!

If you thought with your brains rather than your nether regions you'd realize that "discipline" is something the schools, governments, companies etc. need to promote. Without discipline we have ANARCHY (but maybe that's something your promoting....I'm not).......

The director apparently had problems with the boy in the past ....(farther states he would get notice from the school THEN give the boy a haircut) .....well I think the father is the problem by not staying on top to the boys hair style.....and you're encouraging his diliquent behavior by blaming the school director...

All this Politcal Correctness.....must be the youth of today....brought up as mambi pambi's....and coddled.....get over it!....

Are you serious? I think you "missed the train"......the person commenting here was referring to a group of people (if I understand correctly, westerners, not thais) who like to use the "yeah, c'mon, it's Thailand, that's the way things are" to explain everything, taking an even more complacent attitude than many Thais. However, it seems you are one of those people....you fail to see that not everyone sees "hair style" to be tied to "delinquency"...and the second he says he doesn't agree, you come in saying he must want ANARCHY.....what?

anyway, my main point is, your statement: "your analysis is wrong" is seriously off base.....the poster did not say "this is thailand, just accept it" nor did they say "this only happens in thailand".....the point was not made whether other countries have these practices or not....the point was the use of the simple explanation "this is thailand, get over it" to explain any kind of issue in Thailand, which totally deflects an opportunity to engage in an exchange of opinion. At least you are expressing your opinion, but you are kind of attacking from a point that seems to have no traction as the poster didn't say what you implied.

Yes....I am expressing my opinion....and the point you miss is that Khunpa refers to another thread (kid who's school director gives him a buzz cut)....and he is outraged at those TV poster's who believe that a more concilatory attitude be taken (TIT attitude) vs the Testosterone, "kick some ass" attitude of other TV posters....

The father in the case in question has had previous problems and notifications of hair violations to which he always waited too long to get the hair cut....Soooo the school took the iniatiative to do it themselves.....and therein lies the crux of the question.....Was the school director out of line or not....My personal feeling ...NOT....discipline was needed and discipline was given....Problem solved!

You on the other hand have decided (without knowing all the facts) to attack my position....fine....but get your facts straight before you do....Always best to know of what you speak....don't you think

The school director was well out of order, and I will never change my mind on that. I am not against discipline, but no adult should ever assault a child, and that School Director committed assault. Simple as that.

[bocceball1]

possum1931

"The school director was well out of order, and I will never change my mind on that. I am not against discipline, but no adult should ever assault a child, and that School Director committed assault. Simple as that."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And if it was as "Simple as that" ....this discussion would have never been needed. I like to say the world needs "flaming liberals" like you....but....NOT.

It was a "haircut".....get over it! The father had been warned on multiple previous occaisions (implies the father ignored school rules until they sent home the message).....If anyone is at fault here its the father....WAITED TOO LONG to get the boy a haircut and failed to stay on top his son's grooming habits.

If only....life was "as simple at that".....guess we wouldn't have war's.....but life is not "simple as that"....

[IDL]

To adapt is to know 1self and its surroundings. Living in thailand it is very handy to learn the language. Everyone expects you dont know thai. Use that advantage. The people with a i dont care mentality can have a good life. My eyes truly opened when i became a father and lived in the province of wifes birth. Well i choose the wrong circles because the things i mentioned about the wrongs were only little taken in account. Not having kids gives an easier life in LOS. Up to them ! Having kids and learning them things, thinking, 1 cannot close 1s eyes. This said however it doesnt mean that we dont critisize the mentality of many people in our own countries. Good is good, bad is bad. Regardless of country.

Tho I'd usually employ 50 words when five would suffice, I have to keep this brief coz I'm off out to play pool.

Speaking for myself, it is nigh-on impossible to 'respect' and 'adapt' to a culture, that clearly doesn't know its arse from its elbow.

Be it their tolerance of taxis (with light on) choosing which fare would suit them best, lottery-law enforcement (being highly contemptuous of the BIBs, whilst enjoying the 'tea-money' alternative), opting not to use crash helmets (all the while knowing the dangers), whinging that they are hard-done by (never getting opportunity (which we know simply isn't true) to improve themselves), praying meaningfully just before/after committing a sin, or having their car blessed just so they can go n drive like Mad-Max.

[As a westerner] It's blinking confusing to get-to-grips with a culture, when there blatantly appears to be only one pattern.............. The only consistency in the country/culture is the inconsistency. I applaud any 'visitor' that has cracked it!

[willyumiii]

Using the "haircut post" as an example does not work for me.

In that case, I believe the OP got what was coming to him, or unfortunately to his son.

Reading his post you will see he states that ,this time he was not even told to cut his hair first.

This leads me to believe that the school had had to tell the boy to cut his hair every time it was beyond regulation length.

The director was simply tired of having to tell the boy he needed to follow the same rules as every other student.

Cutting the boy's hair was an attempt to impress on the parent that the boy is required to follow the same policy as every other student.

Should he be given an exemption just because his farher is a farang??

After the first time a student is told he must follow the rules, a responsible parent would see to it that the rules are followed, not push it past the limit every time.

The Op was in the wrong and is a poor parent for teaching his child to disrespect the rules set down for all students.

He is not doing his child any favors!

Maybe the child will have his hair cut before it is out of compliance next time??

We are all here because we choose to be here.

Nobody asked us to come here.

Nobody made us come here.

We have no right to expect others to change and live or think the way people do where ever it is we came from.

There is only one basic law of the universe"

​ADAPT OR DIE!

[salapau]

This is a really good, well written post. I fully agree with the issues that you describe. Like you I live in a rural area with very few foreigners around, either living here or passing through as tourists. I try hard to fit in wherever I can and have learned to speak and understand Thai, which has helped me in the local community. I have helped my neighbours with work on my house and gardens, children in the schools willing to learn English and other things.

Similarly to you there are times when I will not lose my identity or my culure. If I really disagree with something, either action or spoken word, I will speak out. I have always stood up for myself and my family members and will not lose sight of wright and wrong or the fact that I am truly proud to be English, whichever country I am in.

[willyumiii]

I gotta laugh....

Khunpa states....."....and then when you ask a Thai-person for advice on the same issue, they will say: "I would just go to the police"..."

Well I have asked a number of "Thai-person" ...and the LAST person they would go to is the police.....WHY....I have been told by them they " do not trust the police"...

Soooo, Khunpa....not sure what country you living in BUT its NOT Thailand.....and if it is (which I doubt)....your not speaking to the "average" Thai.

Well, just keep on laughing... and then go ask your Thai-friends where they would go to get help, if e.g. their car got stolen. I bet you they would not call Santa Claus...

Again a total Farang overreaction resulting in a complete misunderstanding for realtity here. The police is corrupt in Thailand (which everyone know), so now the Farang conclusion suddenly is, that Thai people never go to the police.

Actually, Thai people do use the police to solve many issues and disputes in daily life. And they do call them, when they get robbed or have things stolen from them. Just like in any other country. They might not fully trust them and know they require Tea-money sometimes, but concluding that no Thais go there for help, is simply not true.

And concluding based on that, that I do not even live in Thailand, is just as stupid.

Again and example of over analyzing and the need to draw a "dramatic" Farang conclusion on something that simply is not a fact. I wonder sometimes if some Farang's make over-conclusions about things here, because they think it makes their life here more exciting to people, who do not live here. People make up things in their head, that is simply not true and aligned with reality. A bit like the statement "All Thai-women are prostitutes and are liars". It is simply not true - unless of course your home and entire world is in and around Nana Plaza... Same as it is also not true that Thai-people, do not go the the police for help, because they do not trust them.

As said, I have lived most of my life abroad and sometimes when I meet people who have not travelled much, then say: "Wow, it must be exciting to live in Thailand". But the fact is that Thailand is just like all other countries in the world and there is nothing super special about it.

Of course I like the weather, culture and people here, but you can also find other nice countries to live in, if you want. Living here is just live living any other place. You wake up in the morning, go to work to make a living and stay home with your family after work. Nothing special or exciting about that... or different from other countries. But I think some people need to add some "drama" and excitement to living abroad. So they over-exaggerate reality to make their daily life and the fact they live in another country seem more exciting to themselves and others. And by doing so facts are many times turned into fiction and over-analyzing of e.g. Thai people and their way of thinking.

Indeed, there are few reasons to believe Thailand is super special. Problem is that once you get to that point, then you just have to reconcile that sometimes some really stupid things happen in thailand and you must just put up with it.

My second story was when,,coming out of my small soi onto a 4 lane road, a motorcycle drove into the passenger side of the car. He was going completely up the wrong side of the road,but argued to everyone that I the stupid farang must expect people to drive up the wrong side. Then there was the classic "if he hadn't come to thailand, this wouldn't have happened."

Its like arguing with a 6 year old.

Thailand. Its a love hate kind of thing.

L.O.S.

not the "land of smiles,"

not the "land of scams."

it's the

"LAND OF SELF ".......me, me me me and only me!

[Tchooptip]

I'm so ashamed of myself for putting ice in my beer. I know its wrong and goes against western thinking. I've actually come to like it.

You are one sick man!! Seek help!!

I'm beyond help - The dark side has taken over.

For sure a man putting ice in his beer is irrecuperable

[Thai at Heart]

To adapt is to know 1self and its surroundings. Living in thailand it is very handy to learn the language. Everyone expects you dont know thai. Use that advantage. The people with a i dont care mentality can have a good life. My eyes truly opened when i became a father and lived in the province of wifes birth. Well i choose the wrong circles because the things i mentioned about the wrongs were only little taken in account. Not having kids gives an easier life in LOS. Up to them ! Having kids and learning them things, thinking, 1 cannot close 1s eyes. This said however it doesnt mean that we dont critisize the mentality of many people in our own countries. Good is good, bad is bad. Regardless of country.

Tho I'd usually employ 50 words when five would suffice, I have to keep this brief coz I'm off out to play pool.

Speaking for myself, it is nigh-on impossible to 'respect' and 'adapt' to a culture, that clearly doesn't know its arse from its elbow.

Be it their tolerance of taxis (with light on) choosing which fare would suit them best, lottery-law enforcement (being highly contemptuous of the BIBs, whilst enjoying the 'tea-money' alternative), opting not to use crash helmets (all the while knowing the dangers), whinging that they are hard-done by (never getting opportunity (which we know simply isn't true) to improve themselves), praying meaningfully just before/after committing a sin, or having their car blessed just so they can go n drive like Mad-Max.

[As a westerner] It's blinking confusing to get-to-grips with a culture, when there blatantly appears to be only one pattern.............. The only consistency in the country/culture is the inconsistency. I applaud any 'visitor' that has cracked it!

There is a difference between culture and way of life.

Hipocrisy rools.

[donniereadit]

I went through a stage when I first arrived of trying to "become Thai". After awhile I realized that I was trying to change myself for other people, and it was basically just a waste of energy.

The best thing to do for me was just to learn enough to get by here and remain who I was before coming over.

[khunPer]

A very good post and question.

I agree in, that it is impossible to give up your original culture – like I will always be a farang here in Thailand – but when it comes to integrate locally and not isolate in a “farang ghetto”, you have to accept “the Thai way of thinking”; if you cannot in a polite way change the Thais view on the subject of matter (believe that might be difficult). The OP mentions the example with the haircut of the schoolboy. I’m not surprised, having for long time heard about public schools and their haircut standards – can be avoided by just following the school’s rules; or by letting the kid attend a private school without, in our opinion, silly haircut standards.

I think you can easily live here with a mix of your homeland culture and the acceptance of local culture. Both the place I stay, where they are used to foreigners and tourists, and when visiting a village up at rural Isaan, the locals seems to understand that I have another lifestyle in some ways of living, and that I however try to integrate as much as possible when attending or mixing with the local way of living.

Even small things, from a farang point of view, can cause big problems. I never forget my mistake inviting my GF’s family (parents and brother) for an ice cream after shopping in Big C in the nearby city – wow; there was a Swendsen’s in the mall. I believe it may also have been their first shopping in a mall. The mom got so upset and walked out in anger; me the stupid farang trying to be kind did not understand anything, until I found out that you cannot spend more money (165b) than from a whole days hard work in rice fields (140b) on one ice cream only. When explained I surely understood. Time has however changed that, and today it is accepted that my GF and I in some ways have a different kind of lifestyle – and her family now do enjoy when we invite them to visit Swendsen’s.

And yes, there are things, which seems so morally wrong, again from a Western point of view, but I have learned just to accept them, staying here – it’s the Thai culture. It’s just like I, if I had stayed in my homeland, would not accept the Muslims to force, from a Western point of view, their Middle-aged Sharia-way-of-life onto “my” society.

I know very well, that sometimes one’s patience reach the point, where the red string is just about to burst. Then I always say to myself: Hello khun Per, You are a guest in this country, if you don’t like the way they live, you shall fly – and: How do you like to see foreigners with a different culture living in your country, shall the original majority population change their standards because of a minority of foreigners?

Yes, I may be one of those farangs who more often “just bow my head and stay low” rather than fighting for the minority rights – however, I feel I have still managed my life fairly well here, perhaps because I often “just bow my head and stay low”, and seem to be widely accepted as a part of the local Thai-community; but I will always be “the farang”.

I completely agree that you must accept Thai-culture and way of life, if you want to live and work here. I am in no way trying to or on a mission to change Thailand or Thai-culture.

What I am trying to say, is that I sometimes see westerners here totally forgetting their own culture and where they originally came from. And when they do, they start thinking so extreme that it becomes a kind of self-made Thai-culture - that has nothing to do with the real Thailand, Thai-people or Thai-culture.

They become so extremely Thai-fixated, that even common sense no longer applies - reality is totally forgotten and even Thai-people would not agree. They are the Farang "Thai-experts", who are quick to hand out verbal planeticket's to any farang, who would criticize ANYTHING about Thailand. The standard answer is often "This is Thailand and the Thai-way... If you do not like it, then just go home!". There is no room for an open debate and if you protest, then you are either accused for not living here long enough or not living here at all. Basically it is Farangs that become narrow minded Farang-haters.

It is in many ways ridiculous, since we all know (especially us who live in a mixed relationship), that it requires openness, compromise and respect from both sides, for things to work. Nowhere but in a mixed relationship, will you find a bigger need for different people to work together and try and understand each other. But it also applies outside of the relationship, if you want to work and live here amongst Thai-people.

A Farang, that lives here and has thrown away his own western moral, values and culture, is in my eyes therefore a lost soul. Because as you also say in your post: "You will always be a Farang here, no matter what!". Therefore it is in my mind also always important for Farangs to remember where they came from and truly value that. E.g. telling people to go back home if they ask questions or criticizes something Thai, just shows me that these people are totally lost from reality.

For sure the value of learning from each others cultures is totally lost, if the possibility of debate and different opinions is not an option... And for some TV members that does not seem to be the case, which actually is kind of sad...

Khunpa, I may be “so extremely Thai-fixated, that even common sense no longer applies” – “totally lost from reality” – however, I normally try to keep both feet solid planted on the ground and view things from two sides.

I absolutely agree in not forgetting our own cultural background, but I believe that is a bit more private. Presumably easier living Western style in a major city or tourist area – I have no problem living a reasonable degree of my original culture – than up at rural Isaan.

I also agree in “the value of learning from each other’s cultures”, but what can I do if I have a problem with authorities? I have to try to keep my irritation for myself, politely say »kabun khrap« and come back another day with the right documentation or whatever may be considered incorrect, instead of getting angry and “learn the Thais how to do it”. If I need to get angry I can go home and write a post about it on ThaiVisa – may get “likes”, but nothing happens – or ask my GF to speak my case, if she agrees in my problem; perhaps something happens. Or I can write letter to one of the English language papers and hope it will be published, and some important Thais may read it.

But who but the Westerners says, that the Western way doing things is the superior way?

Perhaps I, the farang staying in foreign country, shall learn some values from Thai culture instead?

That’s why I mentioned the example with the rabid Muslims in my home country, because I can see the conflict when they demand minority rights for keeping their different culture – they believe the majority shall change. I do not wish a system, which I feel is both functional and right, being changed by some wired medieval thinking foreigners. But the Muslims are truly convinced that their way of thinking is so superior to ours. Maybe it is?

What happens if I settle in a Middle East country and wish they should learn values from my culture?

Probably the same as when Thais living in our Western countries wish to teach us their “much better” traffic culture?

Same, same – nothing will be changed…!

As we are not “on a mission to change Thailand or Thai-culture”, we foreigners shall think well about “the value of learning from each other’s cultures”. I think that’s good Thais care for the value of their culture and not having it spoiled by Westerners – or other foreigners – I wish my home country also will take good care of my original culture. However, it seems like Thais gladly adopt whatever they find good from foreigners – maybe after reading a inspiring suggestion from a farang in one of the newspapers – and when it’s the right time and it can be done “the Thai way”, they do it.

[beachproperty]

Khunper....you seem to have an enlightened way of thinking regarding how to assimilate...

Kinda got me thinking....I'm from the US...so. ...Culture?...we're the "mutts" of culture....a mix of everything....and we're young as a country....

Be that as it may....the chinese were imported in the mid 1800's to work on the "trans-continental" railroad. Many stayed ...and one onclave...."ChinaTown" in San Francisco.....was established....

I bring this up because the Chinese in San Francisco until recently were basicly left alone by the US and SF authorities in "Chinatown" ....they were self policed, untrustful of outside authority, and had their own Hierarchy as to who was in control.....There are still today 1000's of Chinese in SF Chinatown who only speak some dialect of Chinese only ( Mandrin, Cantonese....etc..) and I think they liked it that way....keeping their culture and ways but living in a foreign country unbothered..

My point is....the world is made up of immigrants....Chinese to America, Irish to America (potato famine), Italians, Germans etc. to America....and many other countries including Thailand

And NEVER was the requirement to give up ones own culture....Although there are bigots everywhere who's attitude is "love it or leave it"

Thailand is what it is .... a mix of races who's history many don't even really know as the history books seem somewhat biased! What really is "Thai"?

Oh well ........food for thought

Edited December 2, 2013 by beachproperty

[rayongchelsea]

The longer I have lived here..which is a long time..the more I appreciate certain aspects of western culture.

I ain't Thai, I appreciate the country that has been my home since the 80's,But I live in the most westernized part of sukhumvit , just the way I like it..I like my Starbucks, my deli breakfasts, villa supermarket, Japanese noodles, hoorgarden beer bar..

This country is too complex for me to get to engaged in..

And the women have lost their beauty..

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[IDL]

To adapt is to know 1self and its surroundings. Living in thailand it is very handy to learn the language. Everyone expects you dont know thai. Use that advantage. The people with a i dont care mentality can have a good life. My eyes truly opened when i became a father and lived in the province of wifes birth. Well i choose the wrong circles because the things i mentioned about the wrongs were only little taken in account. Not having kids gives an easier life in LOS. Up to them ! Having kids and learning them things, thinking, 1 cannot close 1s eyes. This said however it doesnt mean that we dont critisize the mentality of many people in our own countries. Good is good, bad is bad. Regardless of country.

Tho I'd usually employ 50 words when five would suffice, I have to keep this brief coz I'm off out to play pool.

Speaking for myself, it is nigh-on impossible to 'respect' and 'adapt' to a culture, that clearly doesn't know its arse from its elbow.

Be it their tolerance of taxis (with light on) choosing which fare would suit them best, lottery-law enforcement (being highly contemptuous of the BIBs, whilst enjoying the 'tea-money' alternative), opting not to use crash helmets (all the while knowing the dangers), whinging that they are hard-done by (never getting opportunity (which we know simply isn't true) to improve themselves), praying meaningfully just before/after committing a sin, or having their car blessed just so they can go n drive like Mad-Max.

[As a westerner] It's blinking confusing to get-to-grips with a culture, when there blatantly appears to be only one pattern.............. The only consistency in the country/culture is the inconsistency. I applaud any 'visitor' that has cracked it!

There is a difference between culture and way of life.

Hipocrisy rools.

...and then there's getting confused between culture (way of life) and tradition...

[pacharaphet]

Khunpa states......However, what I have also noticed (also on this forum), is that many expats and foreigners connected to Thailand simply say... "This is the Thai way, just live with it...". And in many situations, that is also the best way to handle a situation here. BUT sometimes, I also see situations where it in my opinion is used completely wrong. Like e.g. the latest tread with the horrible haircut of the young boy at school. Some people say... "This is Thailand, just accept it" and others warn about trouble, if e.g. the OP goes to the police.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you missed the train on this one....you seem to contradict yourself in saying how well traveled you are and how adaptable you are...Apparently your NOT......and then you state the above!

The situation you speak of (boy getting haircut by school director) is not something specific to Thailand (so your analysis "this is Thailand just accept it" is WRONG!

If you thought with your brains rather than your nether regions you'd realize that "discipline" is something the schools, governments, companies etc. need to promote. Without discipline we have ANARCHY (but maybe that's something your promoting....I'm not).......

The director apparently had problems with the boy in the past ....(farther states he would get notice from the school THEN give the boy a haircut) .....well I think the father is the problem by not staying on top to the boys hair style.....and you're encouraging his diliquent behavior by blaming the school director...

All this Politcal Correctness.....must be the youth of today....brought up as mambi pambi's....and coddled.....get over it!....

Are you serious? I think you "missed the train"......the person commenting here was referring to a group of people (if I understand correctly, westerners, not thais) who like to use the "yeah, c'mon, it's Thailand, that's the way things are" to explain everything, taking an even more complacent attitude than many Thais. However, it seems you are one of those people....you fail to see that not everyone sees "hair style" to be tied to "delinquency"...and the second he says he doesn't agree, you come in saying he must want ANARCHY.....what?

anyway, my main point is, your statement: "your analysis is wrong" is seriously off base.....the poster did not say "this is thailand, just accept it" nor did they say "this only happens in thailand".....the point was not made whether other countries have these practices or not....the point was the use of the simple explanation "this is thailand, get over it" to explain any kind of issue in Thailand, which totally deflects an opportunity to engage in an exchange of opinion. At least you are expressing your opinion, but you are kind of attacking from a point that seems to have no traction as the poster didn't say what you implied.

Yes....I am expressing my opinion....and the point you miss is that Khunpa refers to another thread (kid who's school director gives him a buzz cut)....and he is outraged at those TV poster's who believe that a more concilatory attitude be taken (TIT attitude) vs the Testosterone, "kick some ass" attitude of other TV posters....

The father in the case in question has had previous problems and notifications of hair violations to which he always waited too long to get the hair cut....Soooo the school took the iniatiative to do it themselves.....and therein lies the crux of the question.....Was the school director out of line or not....My personal feeling ...NOT....discipline was needed and discipline was given....Problem solved!

You on the other hand have decided (without knowing all the facts) to attack my position....fine....but get your facts straight before you do....Always best to know of what you speak....don't you think

After reading your argument I began to wonder whether I really didn't understand the issue. So I reread the topic you mentioned and think I still stand in the same place. Regardless of what you think about the hair issue (I personally think that you can let kids hair be whatever length you want, discipline in Thai schools seems quite lacking in terms of having them actually listen to what their teachers are saying in many schools and this certain point of discipline will lead neither towards nor away from ANARCHY.....

I just don't like how you equate things so simply.....if they didn't take discipline into their own hands, then we'd have a complacent attitude which would therefore lead to anarchy....

And I do think it's best to know what you are talking about....sorry, I should have been more clear that I was aware of the issue at hand

So I still don't think you are attacking what the poster implied, nor do I think you responded to my criticism regarding the matter. You didn't address the "just deal with it, this is Thailand" comment, nor did you deal with.

You pointed out that I may not have known enough about the initial issue. But you didn't really respond to what I said.

[bocceball1]

pacharaphet

You write...

".After reading your argument I began to wonder whether I really didn't understand the issue. So I reread the topic you mentioned and think I still stand in the same place. Regardless of what you think about the hair issue (I personally think that you can let kids hair be whatever length you want, discipline in Thai schools seems quite lacking in terms of having them actually listen to what their teachers are saying in many schools and this certain point of discipline will lead neither towards nor away from ANARCHY.....

I just don't like how you equate things so simply.....if they didn't take discipline into their own hands, then we'd have a complacent attitude which would therefore lead to anarchy...."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not sure you still understand the issue (or at least in the same way I do).....which in my mind was about discipline (NOT hair length)....There was a rule about hair length that was ignored by the kid AND his father ....school took action .....

So....not really sure that you DO know the issue at hand as you go on how you don't mind length of hair and the kids ability to learn. (not the issue ....issue was discipline taken by school ...was is OK)

And Yes I was implying the poster was wrong by saying if you think the school was right (my opinion), you have taken the "This is Thailand" to the max and sticking your head in the sand...(Kinda of what the WHOLE post was supposed to be about) NOT that I had an opinion wherein I agreed with what the school director did and fully supported it....THAT is not a TIT attitude! Its one where I made and have an informed opinion (which happens to be WAY different from OP's .....so that's what my post was about.

As for What I said about you....I stand by my previous posts ...AND this one.....Which is I still don't know what you're rambling on about as YOU have not addressed any of the issues .....Or more importantly ....the main one "Do westerners bury their "culture,morals and mindsets" by thinking that a haircut by a school director is OK? My response was NO ...I made an informed opinion and agreed with the school director!

Edited December 10, 2013 by bocceball1